Hi, welcome to Supernatural Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Talk:Demons page.
No I'm not a admin (well not yet) but I'm generally held as being quiet good at answering questions on the show, after all a lot of people come to me with theres, truthfully I've no idea why my usernames in red font, but hey it makes me stand out. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:00, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Hey, man. I'm not angry at you and I'm not trying to make fun of you. I could be dismissive, but this seraph thing hasn't ever been confirmed but please, hear me out on why it is so in supernatural. The gap between angels and seraphs roughly looks like angels>>>>>seraphs. I'll try to break this down in something that's comparable. For a better defining, read my comments on today's talk pages regarding this one. In the fourth season, Castiel was a common angel who could smite anything lower than Alastair. So, after becoming a seraph, he'd be able to smite Lilith (I know she's dead, just using her as a bar/beam) and anything below her. I know seraphs could kill any demon in ways humans could never understand. Whether or not you agree or acknowledge this, you're not dumb and I respect you. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:53 PM, January 27th 2014
I don't understand the logic that a seraph should be above Alastair or his supiriors, Lilith, Cain and Azazel could be as powerful next to Alastair as a Seraph is to an angel. We have never had a good comparrison of how much more power a seraph compared to an angel is but with demons we have something.
When Sam first tried to use his powers on Alastair it 'tickled' him and forced his white eyes to show, then later on, after Sam easily pinned him to a wall after Alastair effortlessly defeated castiel again (notice the horror and surprise on castiel's face that a creature far younger than him could overpower him) and proceed to kill alastair with little effort. Then later after more power toning, attempting his powers on lilith made no eyes show and aside from making her hair a mess did absolutlely nothing to her.
I think this pretty much sums up the fact the Lilith is far more powerful than Alastair to the point where Alastair could be a grunt to her, castiel in her presence diddn't even cause her to break a sweat, when it was revealed that an archangel was descending. Lilith did not leave instantly but actually seemed to evaluate the threat first, likely because she could stand with if not beat a seraph, but knowing that an Archangel is many more times more powerful and the fact that her own creator was an Archangel, she fled.
Crowley seemed pretty sure he could take on the weakend Seraph, although he ended up fleeing, somehow the colossal difference between King crowley and Alastair was so great that I think Alastair would at least be resistant to Seraph smiting but still causing him immense pain, in a similar way to the knife.
and by that comparrison, I think Lilith, Azazel, or Cain would be above a seraph, as they seem to be a full rank above Alastair, lik cream of the crop of the respect hell divisions, i think it goes: 1. angel can kill lower demons easily. 2. Higher demon can defeat angel easily. 3. higher demon is on par with seraph or can resist them.4. Highest level demons can overpower and defeat seraphs with some effort. 5. whatever rank Naomi was can defeat and perhaps kill even the strongest demons with some effort. 6. any archangel can easily kill any demon.
Princepurple (talk) 02:39, January 28, 2014 (UTC)
Ok, Alastair was above Castiel who, in the fourth season, was among the most common angels. After becoming a seraph, he's bumped up, what I would sketch, four cuts. Incremented like that, Castiel could've beat any demon in the history of supernatural. Lilith, that powerful, really? If that's true (which is not concretely blurted), Lilith would be able to tangle with seraphs. That would make Azazel and Cain able to tussle with seraphs. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:03 PM, January 27th 2014
If a seraph is four cuts above an angel, i would say that Alastair would be 3 cuts above Castiel, with Azazel and Cain being also 4 and lilith being 5, and naomi to be 2 cuts above a seraph.
Why would a demon who is much, much younger than an angel be able to easily defeat one so easily? you would think even normal angels would fully be aware of this, but Castiels shock on both Occasions shows otherwise, what could Cas in normal form do to cain? the demon killing knife hurt alastair but Cain would not of even bothered removing it before likely smiting him.
You know fully well that the idea of a demon smiting, you would have denied before cain was introduced, and you also would have denied a demon could overpower any angel before it was shown. and if a high demon is shown fighting off a seraph, i bet you will then jump to the next hope that naomi's rank could eaily beat angels, until again it is disproven.
No seraph has ever shown the ability to kill other angels with smiting, yet Cain took on an entire army single handidly, smiting them all, and shown the ability to render crowley unable to talk or teleport. When Castiel came back at the start of season 5, he was not seraph but still caused Zacheria to flee, who also never directly attempted to capture castiel himself, actually im sure castiel teleported the brothers away from Zach without him being able to prevent or reverse it, so I somehow don't think a seraph is that much higher than an angel, I think Naomi's rank is as powerful as you think seraphs are, and even Naomi was not aware enough to prevent a power boosted crossroads demon from escaping, if Crowley can easily and effortlessly teleport away from her, then I'm sure cain could run circles around round an at least trick her into a ring of holy fire then bombard her with angel blades, the Seraph or above can only kill the highest demons if they can catch them at the very least.
Princepurple (talk) 03:24, January 28, 2014 (UTC)
You're right, an ability where angels smite other angels hasn't been seen. But that is likely due to plot security; if angels could smite other angels, we probably wouldn't have made it past season four. He had to use some effort to escape Naomi, I would guess. You seem to have this idea that angels and demons teleport at the same speed, which could not be true. Angels can perceive invisible particles, like ions, cells and atoms, without effort. Off of Castiel's comment in "Hunter Herocio," angels can see the motion of beings (or, in this case, things) during super-speed. However, there could be no difference, but their methods (wings and disassembling of a form) are different, leaving a possibility of a dissection between the two. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:47 PM, January 27th 2014
You've left like three or four recent messages on talk pages and I've answered them all, but you don't come back and respond. Are you ducking my comments, or something? -- ImperiexSeed, 10:25 PM, February 18th 2014
Hey..I have had the last say on a large handful of threads where you have not commented, for 1. I have cancer, and typing back ain't always easy 2. usually if i don't reply, you can assume that that I either can't be bothered arguing as it tires me these days, but more likely it means case closed because iv'e accepted your replies as satisfying answers.
Princepurple (talk) 03:54, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
Well, Horsemen are so tricky to kill it's practically impossible, but I couldn't say precisely whether or not they're stronger than Eve or Leviathan. It kinda seems like Horsemen can't even affect average angels in vessels, but Castiel was affected by Pestilence's power because he was so weak he could be counted as human. And try an call it over confidence, but it's also remarkable that Castiel, with essentially no angelic advantages, was able to cut off Pestilence's ring finger, when he should've been able to whip around to the other side of the room. Archangels could toss the bodies War, Famine and Pestilence construct around, but would never kill them. I really think angelic strength ultimately exceeds War, Famine and Pestilence's strength. But no matter what archangels, Leviathan, or even God do, Horsemen can't be destroyed permanently unless their said attributes cease to exist. I mean, sure, Pestilence has no reason to fear Lucifer, cause he couldn't kill him. The Horsemen do bulge out, but really only because they're practically unkillable. What's your thoughts? -- ImperiexSeed, 7:32 PM, February 19th 2014
As you have previously mentioned, the horsemen were mostly brought in to compliment fans apocalypic excpectations, and although I like thier modernized original takes, it seemed too rushed and poorly excecuted, like the way they squashed pestilence into the same episode as death when he should have had his own episode, but my main problem is how their aspects affect creation in comparrison to their personified constructs.
I get the impression that the younger horsemen required the rings to keep a solid construct, a construct that personified only a small portion of their true power, where as death used his ring for seemingly little more than status and decoration, as it's removed had no effect on death, I think he used it on other people in the past as a test, to try on the 'portion' of the power that the other horsemen manage to manifest, but for dean, a mortal, that portion is his absolute maximum he can wield. One other way I think that Samuel may have made the colt could have been through passing the test of wearing deaths ring, and as a reward, he gave samuel the power source for his gun, a gun that can kill almost anything, something that seems linked to death, though he was deep under at this time, so my theory is perhaps flawed.
As the younger horsemen could only manifest to the limit the rings allowed, I think the constructs only held limited power, though even their full power would be far less than Deaths, it would be higher than any Archangels, but the constructs are of such a small portion that angels can overpower them, as the constructs would otherwise need omnipresence as war could potentially exist all the way across the cosmos, yet a small amount was personified on earth, focusing on the apocalypse, perhaps not full omnipresence in all of time, but just at any one time, as when lucifer waged war on heaven, war existed and any time any angel would likely war, the horseman might not be there but the raw war may be.
This is simply because I think the term 'horsemen' refers to the four in thier physical manifestations, perticularly the younger 3, like the horsemen is the construct and the ring, rather than the complete force it's self, i think all the other horsemen in thier primal forms could effect angels in a higher level than how they effect humans, so sure, the portionary constructs would be defeatable, but even they are withered, all manner of war, pestilence and famine could be effecting the universe regardless, the rings allow them to partially manifest.
Princepurple (talk) 08:10, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting, and while so far baseless, it's very possible that Death could've done this with other people. I doubtfully reject any inclination that Death had any part in the making of the Colt, because that would make the Colt and his scythe identical in power. I agree with a bunch of what you just said. Before I say anything on this, topically, I've seen nothing to suggest that angels of any choir can be affected by Horsemen. As they exist in their primal 'forms' as the attribute itself, doesn't affected angels in vessels. In other words, War in either form doesn't affect angels in vessels. Maybe by extension of their 'true forms' in their constructs, they could tangle with archangels, although puny insect Lucifer didn't seem too intimidated by Death's. The way I see it, no matter how they express their attributal powers, angels in vessels are unaffected. - ImperiexSeed, 11:48 PM, February 201th 2014
I would like to put out a definate power limit of Eve with a basic formula, according to the companion, she was formed from purgatory it's self, a note i have extended for my book, but as the seeming manifestation of purgatory, much like the horsemen, but she may have a true form in the form of the energy fabric of the realm it's self, therefore, the souls there which are rightfully hers and almost an extension of her self since they are the souls of her chidren, yet when she left purgatory taking a vessal she only manifested her 'core' self, the form in which she could unplug a seraph effortlessly, or perhaps passively as she did not even show any visible evidence, and that was without her souls.
Now if that same Seraph later absorbed all those souls and was capeable of destroying the archangel raphael without any effort, destroy his followers in an instant, teleport with wing sound, be immune to all angel sigils and angel blades and even free death of the bind with a click of his fingers, perhaps h can, perhaps he can't defeat Michael.
But if Eve was armed with her souls at once, the power elevation would likely skyrocket, and i imagine she would be able to not only nullify the archangels powers, but likely destroy all 4 Archangels at the same time, based on what a seraph can do with that power, and i'm guessing the power of the souls would be further exemplified by the fact that Eve is connected directly with the attraction of those souls, so I believe, if the Archangels would be unaffected by the horsemen, im sure the same applies to her, i, at max power, would rank her 3rd most powerful in the show.
Don't try ideas like they could punch off her head and throw it into space, send down a trillion bolts of lightning on her in a milisecond, as such demontration have not been witnessed and in any case, there is just as much chance that she could do better.
Princepurple (talk) 00:46, February 21, 2014 (UTC)
Drat, ok, I won't say that. tehehe Before I respond, I, believe it or not, respect you enough to tell you that I'm no longer a Christian (which may seem astonishingly untrue), which I've only told FTWinchester and now you. I can no longer acquaint myself with such a monster as the Christian God and there's no evidence for him. I believe there's no evidence for the existence of any divine hand in any form. I hold a lack of belief based on no evidence. Should we carry on further? -- ImperiexSeed, 8:00 PM, February 20th 2014
Princepurple (talk) 06:14, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
For the sake of this argument, I'll operate for a moment that Eve is the third strongest being to exist. In the episode, "Mommy Dearest," Eve on multiple occasions "unplugged" or "blocked" him for accessing any of his powers, instead of just smearing his vessel form across the universe, which, as the third strongest being, shouldn't be any problem for her, you'd think. Even the fact that she "unplugged" him so he wouldn't obliterate her babies doesn't add up, seeing as she, as the third strongest being, should be able to just bring them all back. If she really bore as much power as she boasted, she could've taken over everything and nothing (with the exception of God or Death) that got in her way would've been able to resist from her turning them to a foggy stream of smoke. That's even worse, that she supposedly "owned" every soul in Purgatory but forgot it and didn't use them. She obviously didn't "own" them or she would've been able to turn the tide of battle irreversibly. So, no, Eve is not undeniably the third strongest being to exist. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:19 PM, February 23rd 2014
This may simply be due to her personality, if the companion guide claims she formed from purgatory it's self, it seems to point that she is directly connected to it, so the souls truly were hers, Crowley never semed to use Hell's souls to aid himself, such as the 50mil he gave to castiel so he could temporarily zap Raphael, so I assume that 50mil is nothing compared to the amount of souls crowley had and could have used, but for whatever reason, he did not do so, Ev'e however did not seem like she wanted to go all out with her abilities, although she initially wanted to create an army and hybrids, to turn the souls to go to her rather than crowley, was just her backup, preperation in case, she wanted crowley, with him dead she likely would have abandoned her war plans and returned to purgatory, I think that if she was in purgator, nobody would have been able to take her souls, her absence required.
As to why she did not unplug Castiel instantly may have been simply because she did not need to do so, just like raphael by the same law could have unplugged castiel, but only did it once to prevent him smiting crowley, but since you have claimed archangels stronger despite the older stronger rule, and the 'i know how you angels tick' spoken to a seraph leans to believe she could do it to any angel at will or passively.
She claimed she could kill crowley, this of course is more than likely given a seraph certainly can, yet such a being unphases her, yet also although she can be incorrect, so can archangels, Michael himself was highly arrogant, and ultimately wrong about free will, so sure of himself, we gave him credability, if claimed dean would say yes, sure dean did, but then double crossed him, and later showed sloppy reaction time not sensing the holy oil or reacting perticularly well. But Eve seemed sincere for the most part and since she was taken out so early, she never got to demonstrate her full capability, since she was still willing to be civil.
But the way her neagation works seems passive despite her statements, as if no angel or thier powers have effect withing a certain proximity to her, so even if an archangel decided to pick her off, by the time the powers reached her proximity, she would auto cancel it outright.
Princepurple (talk) 23:50, February 23, 2014 (UTC)
A reason wasn't given as to why God locked Death up. Maybe it was consensual where Death willfully allowed himself to be locked up for God's story. Maybe he wanted his reapers to improve and ameliorate in their task of upholding the Natural Order so maybe he asked God to lock him up. I'm not going to get into who's scared of who, cause all we'll do is argue. But those are neutral reasons for why Death was locked up. If you need more, I'll give you more. I really can't answer who's stronger, archangels, Eve or Horsemen, but I'll try. The Horsemen are unkillable to any being imaginable or imaginable, because it's not a matter of lack of power, it concerns logic-any of the Horsemen can only die if their allotted attributes are destroyed. The forms that they assume can be afflicted identically to humans, unlike archangels who would just undo/heal their vessels. But I think that archangels possess a greater level of super-strength and could overpower, but not kill, War, Famine and Pestilence. And, as you see, Eve is in the same raft-she can't kill the Horsemen, but can make them look silly. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:51 PM, March 5th 2014
Re; You queries Edit
Wow. It's like you alone could bring down the whole lore of Supernatural. Not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just pointing out how this emphasizes that the show (especially the latter seasons) fail to hold together. More and more people are noticing, I think. Even in tumblr, where people usually complain mostly about shipping, people are not also complaining about the lack of continuity. FTWinchester (talk) 05:42, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean I could bring down the whole lore???
Princepurple (talk) 06:11, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not wanting to expose errors, I want to build bridges to connect such errors togeather with logical ideas that may or may not come true, i agree that seasons 6 and 7 were worst to date, but i still loved them and found the story arcs good, it's only when you pause, get off the roller coaster and watch it ride without you do you realise that things have started to wear and be inconsistent, I watched a youtube video, a tribute to Samhain, with 'this is halloween' as the theme, was so epic, as long as they bring him back at some point and show him off abit, i will be happy.
Princepurple (talk) 23:52, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not saying that it's your intention to do so. Every fan of the show who is familiar with the general lore would tend to ask such things. I did, too. I only stopped not because I couldn't find any errors, but because I just gave up due to the sheer amount of them. I just find it interesting that you think seasons 6 and 7 are the worst offenders, when I personally think seasons 8 and 9 have more violations in terms of lore. If possible, could you post your reply on my talk page, so I get the notification that you have a reply? Otherwise I would have to manually visit your page to see if you have responded to my message. Thanks. FTWinchester (talk) 00:32, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
Of course I'll help you. Its all very simple really. Now for links to over pages, on the tool bar above next to the Italic button (the one with the large i) on the right is the link button, simply highlight the word that you want link, press that button and it will show you both the target page and text shown, using that you can link it to any page.
Photos are equally simple, either find a Photo and save it onto your computer, than click the photo box on the right side under "Add features and Media" and chose upload photo, than chose the specifications. Or alternatively, if its a photo on this wiki, simply skip the save on to your computer step, just click the box and search for the photo.
Finally to make pages, click on the contribute button, one of the options that come up will be to create a page. Just click that, then make the page you want.
Well I've already made a few edits myself, but sure. I would move the bit about Gilda, and not much being revealed about Oberon to the trivia section. I would also fix the quote. But appart from that it looks fine. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:53, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
Fix the quote how?? and I thought gilda's tribunal would link the two types of Avalon's Authority under one scope.
Princepurple (talk) 01:00, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
the Tribunal was confirmed wasn't it? so a King and a Tribunal exist togeather?
Princepurple (talk) 01:07, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but how they relate to one another hasn't been confirmed. As such drawing links hasn't. I mean there's a lot we don't know, Oberon is meant to the King, but doesn't mean he controls the justice system or the courts, he could just be the leader of political affairs, or being could be just a cerimonal possition with all the real power being held somewhere else, see my point. Thats why it would be best in trivia. General MGD 109 (talk) 01:12, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
I know, that's why I mentioned that such things are unclear, The God page on this wiki makes many presumptions, unsupported facts and unproven things.
Princepurple (talk) 01:18, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
That's a discussion for another day. I know you did that, I'm not saying you didn't. I just saying it would fit better if you put it in the trivia section, rather than the main section. You asked for my advice, well that kind of it. You don't have to listen to it if you don't want to. General MGD 109 (talk) 01:21, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not complaining, I'm just enquiring about why, if i ask for help, I'm not one for just accepting what others say, as you might notice, I like to explore all avenues which sometimes leads me to arrogance, and to be stubborn and quarrelsome, but I admit it, and I'm thankful for your guidence, believe me :)
Princepurple (talk) 01:25, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I noticed, and I don't doubt you appriecate it. Its just, that is my advice. For matters that aren't confirmed and the such, its generally better to keep them out of the main text, to avoid accusations of speculation. As for your method, if that works for you, okay. General MGD 109 (talk) 01:29, February 1, 2014 (UTC)
Cain's eye color Edit
Im pretty sure that his eye color would be red. Even though Dean's eyes were black after being transformed, I dont think his would, and let me explain why I think that. When Lucifer was about to posses, or turn Abel into a demon, Cain made a deal that he would be the demon instead. Its practicly like he sold his sould. Sense he made a deal to become a demon, isnt it natral that he would become a crossroads demon/red eyed demon? Every demon that we know, who sold their soul and became a demon, became a red eyed demon. Dean didnt make a deal with Cain to get the mark, so he got black eyes. It isnt proof, but thats what i think. I have a theory on what different eye colors mean, but that wouldnt be appropriate here. If youd like to hear it, leave a message on my talk page :) Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 06:01, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
Aside from the knights, only crossroad demons have red and they are below white eyed, rembember though, Azazel could make deals and was yellow eyed, also Ruby as a human sold her sould via a deal that gave her witchcraft powers, yet she was black eyed, as was the demon she sold it too, Asteroth, but also, Lilith could make deals, the main way it seems most demons are created are from deals made in thier human lives, otherwise, how they go to hell is not understood, Cain is of the highest possible tier of demons, I think it makes sense for him to have one of the rarer colours, either yellow or White, as only 2 whites have been seen (not counting samhain) but including samhain, all had huge power that placed them like gods to the other demons, though I believe Azazel's yellow eyes are an aesthetic thing that came with him being king as why crowley's smoke was red, but all in all, the white eyed seem closest to lucifer, hence the colour and angelic like white blast that samhain and lilith had.
Only reason I can think that Cain's may be red would be due to the effect of his smiting, a nice idea though, I'l here your theories on the eye colours, so long as you give your idea on how the acheri, seven sins and daeva come into it, i personally think Samhain was a chaotic disaster demon, in charge of Daeva and seven sins and could summon spirits and undead and such as like Lucifers big snarling beast to cause mass chaos and catastrophe.
Princepurple (talk) 12:22, June 12, 2014 (UTC)