Hey. I've never heard of a "watlock", so I'm pretty sure he is just screwing with the page. Don't worry, I'll take care of it. :) EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 05:06, September 21, 2014 (UTC)
Hi, welcome to Supernatural Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Heaven page.
Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help you with anything!
Also note that we are in the process of converting articles written in the present tense to the past tense. So you are welcome to edit any such article you come across. Once again, Welcome! ImperiexSeed (talk) 21:18, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
Reapers are not angels
Dean usage of the word "angel" could diversely have many implications. You're position that reapers are type or form of angel has not been confirmed and is pathetically unsound. Reapers erupting in bright light does not necessarily make them angels, cause, at the moment, it's just a similarity. And it's never been said that reapers require permission to possess someone. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:50 AM, June 1st 2014
So basically what you are saying is that if a cloud of black smoke goes into a body, Dean calls it a demon, and stabs it, then it emits the oranges light a demon does when it dies, we do not list it as a demon on the wiki? -- Dean.winchestor.54, 4:16 PM, June 1st 2014
Well, by now, black smoke definitely means demon. Cause we've never seen anything with black smoke as a form other than demons. So you're saying ANYTHING, no exceptions, that explodes in a burst of bright light while dying is unquestionably an angel? A lot of things made of energy would explode in a bright flash of energy, but that certainly doesn't automatically make them an angel. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:51 PM, June 1st 2014
That isn't the only thing that makes them an angel, it was only a detail. Yes there are other creatures that explode with blue/while light, but they are all different, like when the goddess exploded with blue fire, but with reapers it is the exact same as with angels. The show clearly indicates that they are angels. Dean even says it.
Yeah....I know. I'll let you get away with calling them angels for now but, as recent changes seen on the news feed prove, I'm done putting in any more time arguing about this, but if they're ever differentiated as being their own species, I'll swiftly edit accordingly. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:35 AM, June 2nd 2014
I am only calling them angels because that is what the show is telling us. I am with you though, I hate that they changed them, and wish they were there own beings. I hope they clear this up next season.
Yeah, it's unknown how deities, not counting God, came about, whether through creation or tulpa. It's a very, very pliable theory I have, however it's still unproven. So, can't include it on pages. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:01 PM, June 4th 2014
The computer I've been fancily using lately, as you know, has this terrible proneness and predilection for its connection to flicker on and off. I think, though, maybe this time it could have been your connection, but anyway, just wanted to let you know I wasn't ignoring you on Facebook and responded to every message you sent me but, obviously, they didn't go through. I'll try again when I can, but if we don't talk for a while, I can't accentuate this enough, don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond, cause I'm not, I look forward to getting to talk to you when I can. Take care. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:16 AM< August 3rd 2014
Please take a closer look at the canon and transcripts before you overhaul major articles. While regular angels had not been named as a class, it is obvious that they do exist as a separate class. In fact, read the talk page for Seraphs alone and you will see how different Seraphs were from regular angels. I could stretch this on and on, and to be frank, I only know of one or two users here that I haven't fully convinced on debates such as this when I go all out. I don't want to and I don't have the time. FTWinchester (talk) 00:03, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Look, you are just being stubborn. You have no evidence from the show to support that there is an angel class. I have already proven, by canon, that there is none, and it is archangel>seraph>Cupid. You are being arrogant, and just don't want to except the facts. I will change the wikia, because it is correct. I have debated several people on this, and have one each time. I have evidence and you don't. Sure Cass appears to have more abilities after the kripke era, but that still is not proof (as mine is) and lots of things changed after kripke left. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 00:13, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Actually I have proven it. Archangels are 1st class, cupids are 3rd (SAID IN THE SHOW) and that leaves room for only ONE more. The means only Seraphim is under archangel and over Cherubim....and I talked to L4D2 Ellis, Imperiexseed (the admin), and Merrystar (the wikia staff member), they all disagreed with me just like you, and were resistant to give in, but they finally exempted the truth. 1 is an admin, and another is a STAFF MEMBER. the agreed that it was proof and it should be changed on the wiki, so it will be Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 00:22, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
No, you haven't. Your basic premise breaks from the following two statements: (1) the phrase "third class" could also mean simply as a "lower class", not necessarily that there are only three classes. And (2) it's funny how you claim there are only three classes when both Rit Ziens and the damned reapers exist as separate angel classes as well, racking up a total of 5.
Zachariah's own words when he first appeared "I'm hardly another one [angel]," dismissing Dean's statement that Zachariah was just another angel. How naive of you to think there are no classes separating powerful angels like Gamble-era-Castiel, Zachariah and Naomi from regular foot soldiers who do nothing but die. Even Joshua himself was simply a gardener, and Metatron described himself only to be a scribe--hardly the definition of the other angels we see who were warriors. Naomi's entire command were ranked higher--they knew of the programming and reprogramming of regular angels. They were obviously separate. In fact, in Naomi's case, she could very well be an entire class to herself. Just because other classes had no names doesn't mean that they don't exist.
This wikia operates by consensus. I don't consent. So you need to humor me. And adminship doesn't define what the consensus is--I've butted heads with Imperiex several times. FTWinchester (talk) 00:35, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Ok, *cracks knuckles* we can't just assume that Castiel ment lower class by saying "third class", he said 3rd, so as a canoligical wiki, we need to put it as the show literally states, not what we think it means. 2nd of all, I never ever said that there were only 3 classes. I said that Cupids were the third class, but I never said it stopped there. I only stated that it went in this order archangels>seraphim>cupids>etc. I never said there were only three. And we also can't just imply that Zacheriah stating "I'm hardly just another one of them...I'm Castiel's superior." To mean that he is a whole other class of angel than Castiel. Castiel was Uriel's superior once, that doesn't mean they were different classes of angel. Uriel was also Castiel's superior at one time, but they were still the same class of angel. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 00:45, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
- So you're telling me that even when Season 8 (through Ion's words) was careful enough to differentiate that there was a substantial difference between Naomi and her division and 'soldiers' down the garrison, and at the same episode, Metatron calls himself a 'run-of-the-mill' (a.k.a. ordinary, regular, common, basic) angel of a secretarial position, they were all, all those times, Seraphs? No distinction at all regardless of their roles and capabilities? The term 'Seraph' was in fact never canonically stated explicitly until Castiel described himself (this was also Season 8 btw), and this now automatically applies to everyone who wasn't an archangel, a cupid, a rit zien or a reaper? So if the term 'Seraph' has always been meant to describe the vanilla angel class, you'd think they would actually start using the term ever since, instead of reserving it to an angel who has displayed several advanced abilities and been described as 'new and improved'.
- Speaking of "new and improved", your line of thinking that this only meant he got his wings back is faulty at best. Despite being weaker, he was still an angel. Even if you say having his full powers back would mean he was relatively "improved", this doesn't explain the "new" part. In fact, if "new and improved" only meant he got back his full power, how come he actually had more than the powers he originally had? How come when he was pulled back from his first death in the Season 4 finale, he still could not undo Zachariah's biokinetic tricks himself? His resurrection in Season 5 and feats following that was significantly better than when he was first resurrected in season 4-5 interim. It's "new AND improved".
- Crowley was not afraid of angels for the most part since he became King of Hell. Have you noticed with which angels he actually fled from? Castiel and Naomi (before Crowley fashioned his gun). a.k.a., also the only two angels alive at the time that demonstrated the white light, among other powerful feats, and later, Metatron, who, might I remind you, described himself as a 'run-of-the-mill' angel, who was elevated, and then showed the capability to use white light as well. Again, the term 'Seraph' was used only by Castiel to describe himself--an angel we know who possessed advanced powers. Is it then logical to assume this term is a catch-all to the remainder of the angel race, rather than only to those who were similar to his degree of power? Also consider how Castiel used this term in the context of Leviathans (who Castiel could somehow stand up to even in their home turf), when two angels you claim to be the same class as him got decimated completely? FTWinchester (talk) 03:02, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Look, I could debate you all day on this, but I don't have the time. First of all, and hear me good.....my point is that archangels are 1 and cupids are 3, leaving seraph as 2. My point is a canological fact, as it is flat out stated on the show. ALL of your points are just assumptions. I could argue each and every one of them, but in the end, it would just come back to Archangel>Seraph>Cupid. For example, when Metatron said he was an ordinary "run of the mill" angel, HE MEANT SERAPH. That is my whole point! Seraphim ARE the normal angels. And when was it ever said/implied that Crowley doesn't fear angels? The only time he wasn't afraid of them, was when he was up against a reaper (a very low angel) and when Samandriel and Gadreel were bound. Of coarse he isn't afraid of angels who couldn't do anything to him. And about the Leviathan thing...Those angels didn't know that it was a leviathan, and were caught by surprise. Castiel actually had the beasts in him, and knew them. He could see who was who, and how to stop, hurt and kill them. I think that might give him more of an advantage than the angels who had no idea what was going on. The last point that I will counter is Zachariah. When Castiel told him to "put these boys back together" he could have simply been acting tough, threatening him to show his authority. Even if I couldn't counter any of your points, I would still have the upper hand, because every single one of your points is pure assumption, while mine is flat out stated on the show. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 04:04, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Your designations of classes are unfounded and unmentioned. "Third class" was mentioned, yes, but first or second class weren't, so "third class" could mean anything. And there's a large power gap between Castiel's capabilities (since season six) and Metatron's, where they're clearly not of the same class. Not everything that isn't outright stated can't be shown to be fact through implication, innuendo, or inference. For example, the cupid has nowhere been outright stated to be the weakest (and you still haven't proven what Cas meant when he said "third class") type of angel, however it's highly estimated by how they showed their capabilities compared to others. So, assumption based on a large number or substantiation of information can, then, be called fact. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:33 AM, June 9th 2014
First of all, reread your paragraph before you publish it next time. Second of all, like I said before, there is more evidence from the show supporting my hypothesis. Archangels are the first angels created, making them first class. Metatron said that when god left, the archangels took over the universe; that means they were 2nd to god in power, and above all the other classes of angels. For the Cupid thing, we can't just assume that (third class) was a metaphor. What if Castiel said on the show that he killed a demon in a fight. Killed can be used to describe how bad you beat someone at a game. Castiel COULD have meant that that he was way better than the demon, and he never stood a chance. It could have meant this, but we have to take it literally until the show says otherwise. Again...archangel>seraph>cupid. And about the "power gap" between Castiel (season 6) and metatron. I do believe Metatatron (before being powered by the angel tablet) was able to kill Naomi, take Castiel hostage, and take his grace. That doesn't seem like a lack of power. And what abilities does Castiel have that it has been told/shown that metatron does not have? Again, you can't assume that metatron doesn't have all of Castiel's seraph abilities just because he hasn't used them. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 18:08, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
No....Death is second to God in power. Yes, they are above all other classes of angels but the term "first class" was never used to describe them, so you're therein baseless. It's still unclear, other than by power, how angels are separated. So, classing them in classes might be inappropriate, depending. Saying you 'killed' in that you annihilated them senselessly is gamer-talk and a lot different than a metaphor. A metaphor's a lot different and easier to perceive. He most likely caught him off guard when Castiel teleported into Heaven. Ha, it he was he'd would've just forcefully restrained Castiel instead of strapping him down and taken his grace. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:36 PM, June 9th 2014
1st of all, when the archangels took over Heaven, Death was still locked 6,000 feet under the earth, so as I said before, they were 2nd to God. what do you mean it was never said there were angel classes? What do you think an archangel is? It's a type (a class) of angel. That is what class means, section. It doesn't matter if the "killing" metaphor is to hard to disipher, it still proves my point. You can't just assume that he was using the word incorrectly. He said 3rd class, as well as lower level. Why would he say the same thing twice? Aslo, before he said "third class" he said "technically" that means literally. So it isn't a metaphor, and we can't assume it is. Also Metatron restraining Castiel doesn't mean anything. Naomi had to restrain Metatron, and it is just pure assumption that Metatron only got Castiel because he took him by suprize. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 18:49, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
The idea of seraph existed in writing room at least during season five (with Zachariah's angelic description of himself), so why didn't any angel use the term "seraph" to describe themselves till season eight? ....No.. Death is second to God regardless, however the archangels were the only type of heavenly beings strong enough to fill God's shoes. I know what it means. Metatron was looked as the nerd angel, he's one of those pocket-protector-types. Like FTWinchester pointed out, Zachariah's quote would've made no sense if all the angels we knew at the time (Castiel, Uriel, Anna) were seraphs, cause then he would be just another one. -- ImperiexSeed], 3:09 PM, June 9th 2014
Regardles of the points you made, it is still speculation, while mine was stated on the show. But I will still counter them...if a bunch of red ants call them selves ants, but one called himself a red ant (specifically) does that mean the other red ants aren't red ants? It doesn't matter if they never said they are seraphim. Did zacheriah point him self out a seraph? Sure, but that doesn't mean the others aren't. And I have already debated this with FTWinchester (and this too is just speculation) but when Zacheriah said he was "hardly another one" he specified afterward by saying he was Castiel's superior. Castiel was Uriel's s superior, does that make him an entire class above him? Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:26, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
I. On Assumptions
Pray, do tell me, which is the bigger assumption? That the term Castiel used to describe himself refer to angels that arent archangels, cherubs, rit ziens or reapers, or that the term only refers to angels most alike Castiel post-Swan Song? Which claim stretches the definition more? One could even argue that both are assumptions so neither are correct. Point is, you are also using assumptions to support one line of canon that by itself could be interpreted in different ways (look at NaiflidG's response to the talk page), and could easily have been retconned in the new eras. Even your response that Castiel was just trying to intimidate Zachariah was an assumption by itself. Castiel obviously couldn't. Otherwise, he would not follow it with "I won't ask twice." Castiel could have just patched the Winchesters himself AND kill Zachariah if he really felt like it, or even kill Zach first, then patch the boys after, if it really was in his power. After all, his friends are dying from stage IV cancer and lack of lungs, you'd think it would be his priority to get them to tip-top shape rather than intimidate a rival angel. Besides, he was drawing on the possibility that God himself revived Castiel as the main source of fear for Zachariah, and not by Castiel's own power, as evidenced by this conversation:
- Castiel: How did these two end up on that airplane? Another good question, because the angels didn't do it. I think we both know the answer, don't we?
- Zachariah: No... It's not possible.
- Castiel: It scares you. Well, it should. Now, put these boys back together, and go. I won't ask twice.
Might I also remind you that your dismissal to Zachariah's line "hardly another one", and Castiel's "new and improved" is about the same as us saying "third class" can have different interpretations.
II. Explicit vs. Implicit, Contextual Clues
While we don't have a solid explicit canon statement like your claim (which, again, could be interpreted variously as several members have shown in the talk page), there are several implicit cues that support the idea that there are several ranks for the 'ungrouped' angels.
Why point out Castiel was a Seraph? What was the need if it did not make him any more special than other regular angels (when he clearly was different and far more powerful)? Why stress differences between the intelligence angels and the regular foot soldiers? These gaps were already evident in Seasons 4 and 5, and although it was quite vague on how different angels were from each other, it was often stressed how someone belonged to 'senior management', and how someone was not. Season 8 reinforced and cemented those gaps. Also, take a look at Carver's statement regarding Naomi, whom he described as a "new breed" of angel we've never seen before. Are you going to ignore that commentary by the current, albeit poor and distasteful, showrunner?
Let's take a closer look at the powerful, non-archangel angels, shall we?
Zachariah - was in direct communication with the archangel Michael, described as part of Heaven's 'upper/senior management', was extremely powerful, easily bossed lower angels around and was part of the mastermind plot that excluded the foot-soldier angels, easily obliterated demons that raided John's lock-up
Naomi - was in direct communication with the archangels, was tasked by the archangels to debrief Metatron (then already a powerful angel himself), could program and reprogram angels, even powerful ones like the Seraph Castiel, leader of the 'intelligence division' and part of the heavenly host that held privy to plots not accessible to lower celestials, leader of one of the major factions vying control for Heaven, scared off a high-tier demon like Crowley, capable of using white light, succesfully devised a plan to rescue a Seraph from the home-turf of Leviathans, where plenty of Old Ones were prowling
"New and improved" Castiel - revived several times by an unknown power (but implied to be God), challenged an archangel's leadership, was considerably powerful, led half of the Heavenly host and even ruled the entirety of Heaven at one point, capable of using white light, could obliterate demons with ease, and even scared off a high-tier demon like Crowley, capable of standing up to Leviathans, literally the only one who explicitly described himself as a seraph
Metatron - described himself as an ordinary angel but was elevated by God, and therefore was in direct communication with God, one of the few angels aware of the secret plans of the heavenly host for the apocalypse, ruled Heaven at one point, capable of using white light and scared off a high-tier demon like Crowley, has knowledge of how to destroy Leviathans (from writing down the word of God)
Considering these incredible feats and the similarities among these four in terms of strength against demons and leviathans and organizational power against their lesser brethren, and the fact that they alluded or called themselves far more powerful than other regular angels, I find it hard to believe they were all just Seraphs.
In the case of Metatron, he clearly said himself he was an ordinary angel BUT was elevated by God Himself, which allowed Metatron to go against Naomi, use the white light and perform other powerful feats. So, I will ask you again. Which is a bigger assumption? Using the term 'Seraph' to include only those similar to Castiel's status, or using it to describe the remainder of the heavenly host? FTWinchester (talk) 00:51, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
Your first argument is invalid, because mine is not an assumption. I wasn't trying to give a proven answer for the Zachariah thing. I was just giving an alternative explanation, because I have already proven there is the angel class. And the "New and Improved" statement, and the "third class" can't even be compared! New and improved leaves a variety of options and scenarios, and is left open for evaluation. Third class, however is a specific number, and we can't assume it is a metaphor unless the show says other wise. And I am not setting it in stone that there is no angel class, only no angel class higher than cherubim. If you think Castiel and most of the angels were weaker than Cupids, than you obviously need to watch the show more. Those angels that you listed were not powerful in power. Metatron was given knowledge, Naomi had experience in torture/brainwash, and Zacheriah shows no ability that was flat out stated on other ordinary angel has. We can't assume the other angels don't have that power, because we haven't seen them use it. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 01:07, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
"New and improved" means new and improved. Yet you insist that it means he was "restored" instead of "improved", just as I insist that "third class" could be used to describe a "lower class". This is a double-edged sword, mate--both statements could be interpreted literally or figuratively. He was elevated to another rank. Metatron was elevated to another rank. If you think the four angels I listed weren't powerful, then you are mistaken. Metatron could remove Crowley's angel warding even before he powered himself with the tablet, and then used white light to send Crowley to submission (The Great Escapist). That same angel managed to overpower Naomi (Sacrifice), the same powerful angel who could enforce her will on the seraph Castiel (much of Season 8). Again, these new information are from Season 8, which supersedes Season 4-5 canon. New angel breeds/classes/groups have featured, and sad as it may be, the old glorious Kripke era isnt the only basis anymore. It's like you did not even read my entire post and selected only those you could counter. I wasn't insisting your claim is an assumption. What I said was you were supporting one line with assumptions. There's a difference. FTWinchester (talk) 01:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
When a kid breaks a toy, and his dad fixes it and says "good as new" does that mean he changed the toy completely, or just fixed it to its original state? Exactly. And again, until they say otherwise, 3rd class means 3rd class, and we aren't going to assume that it is a metaphor. I never said there were only 3 types of angels. I acknowledged that they introduced more angels, but they just rank lower than cherubs. I did not pick out the points that I could counter, I already countered all those points, and don't need to do it again. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 02:01, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
- When a kid breaks a toy, and his dad fixes it and says "good as new" does that mean he changed the toy completely, or just fixed it to its original state?
I left out "improved" because I thought you were smart enough to figure it out on your own. The toy was improved, because it was fixed. It was broken, and now it isn't...it was improved. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 02:07, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
Except "good as new" isn't the same as "new and improved". Additionallly, your scenario could fit as "improved like it was new", but not "new" and at the same time "improved".
As for the third class, like I said, it is used not only to describe a 'lower' class, but actually is used in the context of three classes, where the third class is the absolute worst or lowest. This is evident in transportation like trains, ships, etc., in social sciences like first-world countries to third-world countries, and even in education (i.e., lowest degree in a British university). Now please take into consideration the context. This is what I have been telling you from the start. It is a relative term. In almost all the meanings you would see, it is almost always the least part in a set of three. To travel third class means you travel the cheapest (because there is no such thing as a "fourth class, fifth class accommodation"), to be in the third-world means you are part of the poorest (there is no "fourth-world"). When applied to angel classes, this would mean Cherubs are not literally the third most powerful class, but either a 'relatively lower class', or the 'actual lowest class'. Do you actually believe that the cherubs are more powerful than the Rit Ziens? Rit Ziens completely heal or completely kill their brethrens on the battlefield. Would you say they are the "fourth" or the "fifth" class, below angels that specialized in creating love for humans? The whole angelic race is viewed as a whole, and relatively, cherubs sit at the "third class", a.k.a., the lowest, not an absolute "third rank" with several more underneath them. FTWinchester (talk) 02:31, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
I get what you are saying. I had gotten it since the first time you have said it...but apparently you are not getting what I am saying....does 3rd class mean lowest on planes, ships,trains, yes they do, but we can't assume it means the same for angel. He says 3rd class, so that means the 3rd class of angel, until it says otherwise on the show. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 02:38, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
>Ignoring the origin, the context and the meaning of the phrase 'third class' in favor of a literal interpretation that isnt even used commonly
Sure. It's not like the series uses English or anything. In any case, I don't see you budging, nor would I. Unfortunately, because the status quo must be maintained until consensus is reached, your claims at most could possibly be added in a subsection 'Notes' outlining your main argument that "cherubs are (absolute) third class".
Again, Castiel referred to himself specifically as a seraph. Himself. Now again in the context of being "new and improved", this means he was not a seraph before, but was elevated to another rank, which is highly coherent with the new powers he has since displayed, and coherent with other beings described to have the same/similar rank/class. Going by the weight of ONE line, ONE claim, against several counter arguments that span seasons and eras that are also in agreement with each other, it's not a difficult choice to make. ONE angel calls himself a Seraph and everybody is generalized (or shoehorned, I should say) as such.
This is like saying all demons who were 'handpicked by Lucifer' and were among the 'first to fall' were all knights of hell when clearly, Lilith exists as a contradiction. FTWinchester (talk) 03:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
I actually have found a whole in the show that can make another scenario where there can be an angel class. Like you said, 3rd class could mean the lowest, but also, when Castiel said "technically it's a cherub, third class" isn't it possible that he meant that cherubs had multiple classes within itself, and Cupids were the 3rd class? Perhaps reapers and rit ziens are a type of cherub. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 00:05, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
Yes! Exactly, thank you. This is what I meant that the line was also open to interpretation. Another user, NaiflidG, brought up that exact same point of view yesterday in the talk page of the Angels. This would explain why the cherub we first saw appeared weaker than the one in Season 8 (Castiel, then a regular angel forced the Cherub to manifest but in Season 8, where Castiel was stronger, he was even unaware until the last moment on who the cherub could be). This is why we found it really hard to believe that Cherubs were the absolute third class among all angels. FTWinchester (talk) 01:54, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
(Fair warning ahead of time that the upcoming reply is not my best reasoned or worded argument.) It's certainly possible that that is the case; that Castiel was always a lower-class seraph and was simply "promoted" up a class or two by God. However, I still have trouble believing that.
First off, if Castiel were always a seraph, then that would have to mean that angels on his level or above him were also seraphs. Again, this is difficult to believe, if only because of the immense variance in terms of ability, power, and rank between Castiel and the angels on par with or above him. It also suggests two possibilities about Castiel and Uriel's fight in "On the Head of a Pin": either a regular angel like Uriel was able to easily overpower and almost kill a seraph, which is supremely unlikely, or else Uriel was a seraph, too. The latter would also mean that Anna was a seraph, possibly a higher-class seraph, since she was their boss. So many seraphs in one garrison would lead one to suspect that all the angels in the garrison would be seraphs; that it was in fact a garrison of low-class seraphs. That means that Balthazar, Rachel, Hester, Inias, Bartholomew, the four unnamed angels Uriel killed, the two unnamed angels and rest of the garrison Edgar killed, and Samandiriel -- all angels either confirmed or implied to have been in Castiel's garrison -- were also all seraphs. That is not only incredibly unlikely, it also makes seraphs as a whole much, much less impressive. But that is what you're suggesting when you say that Castiel could have been a low-class seraph.
Secondly, a class or two in difference does not explain the differences between Zachariah and Castiel and his garrison. Zachariah, a representative of upper-management, refers to Castiel's garrison as "grunts on the ground", not as comrades anywhere close to his level. He talks to archangels, works for them directly, and knows all their plans for the Apocalypse. Castiel doesn't even know where his orders are coming from. He takes orders from any angel above him, he is lied to, and initially he has no idea at all about the archangels's real intentions or the dissent within the ranks. Castiel is a grunt; Zachariah is not. Castiel is also an explicit representation of the Heavenly Host: like all the rest, he is kept in the dark, he is unimportant, he is one soldier among many.
Thirdly, I personally find it difficult to believe that being promoted to another class explains the world in difference we see in Castiel from how he started. When he started, he was overpowered by anyone and everyone: he couldn't smite Alastair, he was afraid of taking Anna on once she regained her grace, he couldn't defeat Uriel, he refrained from even confronting Samhain once the demon was summoned, and Zachariah looked down on him. When Castiel was cut off from Heaven at whatever rank he initially held, he lost power and turned human over the course of a year. He immediately lost the power to heal or resurrect people. Time travel knocked him unconscious for at least a day; returning to the present surprised him because he didn't think he'd make it. He couldn't even smite demons anymore. Compare this to the new and improved Castiel, who God intends to be "the new sheriff in town," who can heal and resurrect with a touch, who does the "impossible" task of breaking into Lucifer's cage on his own and escaping two pissed archangels unharmed with Sam's body, who can destroy a roomful of super-monsters without touching them, who fights a war in Heaven against an archangel and his army, who scares the King of Hell shitless even when he's been totally drained of power, who breaks free of millenia's worth of brainwashing and mind control, who effectively outfights and kills pretty much any opponent put in front of him. I just don't believe that that's a seraph moving up the ladder; I believe that that's a grunt made into a seraph.
Lastly, there is no indication at all that Castiel was a seraph before Season 6 and every indication that he was just a soldier then. Deciding that he was always a seraph -- just a lower-class one that was "promoted" when he came back "new and improved" -- would require us to question everything we have on angels. Are all the "normal" angels who've appeared seraphs? Or only certain ones? How do we know? Is this angel who overpowered seraph Castiel a higher-class seraph, then? Is this angel seraph Castiel killed also a seraph, then -- maybe lower-class, maybe higher-class but caught off-guard, maybe same class? We would have to re-examine each and every angel shown and argue whether or not they were seraphs as well. Not only would that be speculation, it is very time-consuming and difficult because we will argue and argue until the cows come home. And doing this all because maybe it's archangels as the first-class of angels, seraphs as second, cupids third, etc.? Because maybe Castiel and all the others were always low-class seraphs? That's not good enough for me. That doesn't convince me. If you manage to convince the others, then I'll go along with it because even though I've argued the opposite, I am open to the possibility of what you argue; I don't currently agree with it, but I can see why you would see it and I could accept it if you argue your case convincingly enough to change my mind and the minds of other users.--NaiflidG (talk) 23:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
Let us fix a time to catch up on the chat room. You live in California and I live in Hyderabad. There's 12 and a half hour time difference. I'm free today and unlike me, if you have the habit of switching on your lappy early in the morning, hit me up! I'll keep visiting this site for a few more hours. RaghavD'"Look into my eyes. It’s where my demons hide" 08:28, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
Hi Josh. First of all, thanks for your work on the Wiki thus far :) While I think it's neat that you picked up on the angel class distinctions (though I'm not fully convinced myself), specific content contributions aren't exactly relevant to adminship. And though it's great that you're passionate about editing the Wiki, I'm not so sure you get what the role of a sysop actually entails. You are also a fairly new user; your contributions show that you have only become recently active within the past few weeks or so, hence a longer sustained period of editing would be preferable. Lastly, it's not exactly in good taste to leave your adminship request on *all* the bureaucrats' talk pages, especially since all of them are long inactive (barring myself), and it also demonstrates that you're not quite familiar with how a Wiki operates yet. For these reasons (and more), I'll not grant your adminship request at this time I'm afraid. Cheers. Calebchiam Talk 14:42, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Also, in the future, kindly do not leave messages for me on other Wikis that I am active on. (Again, it's in rather bad taste.) Once, and on the correct Wiki, is quite enough. Calebchiam Talk 15:07, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
- Fair enough then. You misunderstand though, because adminship itself isn't about any of that. I suggest you ask other users in the community to get a better idea. Cheers. Calebchiam Talk 01:34, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
Harming Death and his absolute indestructibility as a Horseman
If Castiel with all the souls of Purgatory and Leviathan could've harmed Death, then that makes him just another being, and loses his power, authority and title, and a worthless pile of shi*. To put it in perspective, if Jessie wore the other Horsemen's rings, absorbed every soul, absorbed every angel and demon, powered up with the angel tablet and wielded all of Heaven's weapons, he couldn't even kinda hurt Death. No matter how much power you have, if you're not God, you can't hurt him at all. Also, nothing, not even God or Jesse, could kill or destroy a Horseman without removing their attribute fully from existence. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:39 AM, August 22nd 2014
1. I know nothing can kill a horsemen without getting rid of their attribute. 2. To say nothing but God can harm Death is pure assumption.
"if the destiel user keeps spamming. I will either block them or relock the page." Thank you! I and other undid the edit a couple of times until I finally went to admin and he locked it and the castiel page. Thank you again!TheTardisAndTheImpala67 (talk) 06:34, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
Inferno (A Selena Original Series)P
Hello Fearless Diva, would you like to meet me in the chat so we may discuss this? EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 06:55, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
Re: Power Scale
Question abut death sense you erased my edit? Um besides God who's more powerful? And it's one of the most powerful beings not being. And i know i'm being picky here but when did he hesitate on Cas I believe he called him out on the spot. And how is ring removal a weakness of his maybe the other horsemen but not him.Raybat (talk) 04:45, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
1. To say that no one besides God is more powerful than Death is an assumption. 2. As Castiel was confident he could at least harm death, we at least have to put it as a possibility. 3. The removal of his ring limited his powers to teleportation.
So let me get this straight Cas unbinding Death and then running like a little girl afterwards in your mind says hes on par with Death? Ok if you say so it's only a wiki lol. A soul empowered Cas vs Death sorry don't like his chances If you run from somebody and you all powerful at least stand your ground is all i'm saying.Raybat (talk) 20:25, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
Just because Cas left after he unbound him doesn't mean he didn't stand any chance. The only reason Death was a threat to Cas was because he was bound by Sam and Dean. After Cas unbound Death, he was no longer a threat, so Cas no longer needed to fight him. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 23:34, September 3, 2014 (UTC)
Hi there's Destiel spamming in the Dean Winchester page, Castiel page, and the Dean and Castiel Page. I reverted all of them. This is getting really annoying.
I noticed you took away the first blade away from the weaknesses specific to God. But I ask why because dean had the blade ready to kill metatron while metatron drawn upon the angel tablet making him god. So this indicates that god isn't omnipotent and can be killed by the blade cause even metatron was in fear of it. I just need your permission to change it back.
M. Warlow 23:42, September 16, 2014 (UTC)
Hey M. Warlow. The source of the angel tablet's power does come from God, and the first blade could kill Metatron while he had its power, but no, that doesn't mean it can kill God. The source of the first blades power is Lucifer, and unless you are suggesting that Lucifer can kill God, there is no way the first blade can either. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 02:03, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
The powers gained from the tablet didn't make Metatron God literally, to say otherwise is fallacious and fatuous. It made him like--or similar to--God. Even with Sam and Gadreel's comments, it was not impinged that he was God, but laconically called him such to give substance to it. If the tablet truly made him God: 1. He would've beat the angel bowler, 2. Gadreel wouldn't have needed to tarp over him to protect him from the blast, he could've just stood there taking no damage, 3. he could've just walked through the holy fire, 4. when Dean punched him, he wouldn't have staggered back. So, absolutely fuckin* not, the tablet didn't make him God. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:31 PM, September 16th 2014
oh, Thank you for your deletion of my page :D.
I searched for it, and got nothing but actual people with the surname matlock. I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or if the anon is messing with the page on purpose. Gabriel456 (talk) 02:36, September 21, 2014 (UTC)
Multiple Troll Report
Please ban "Süßigkeiten-Joviana" (and its corresponding IP), "Ulex911", "IvanKomarov91". All are vicious long–term cyberbullies here to subvert / retaliate against my previous efforts to bring them to justice for their numerous prior crimes against me. Moleman 9000 16:31, October 1, 2014 (UTC)
Before I can ban anybody, I need confirmation on the issue. Please refer me to where some of the cyberbulling has taken place, and if I see it fit, I will ban him.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any cyber-bullying going on. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 23:54, October 1, 2014 (UTC)
How are you man, Supernatural's starting back up again in six days! Hey, come meet me on chat. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:47 PM, October 1st 2014
Sorry, got really busy, I'm available now. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:50 PM, October 2nd 2014
Please do not drag other people into your own conflicts. 220.127.116.11 02:49, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
How could you not have seen what the trolls were doing on my talk page history? Again, I'm referring you to the edit history of my talk page, not just its current form. Moleman 9000 23:56, October 2, 2014 (UTC)
The edit summaries, visible on the history page itself, should speak for themselves: http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:ResonX?action=history Moleman 9000 00:25, October 3, 2014 (UTC)
Just let it go Moleman. These are innocent people just trying to maintain thier website, they don't want to be dragged into this drama. Just let it go, let it gooo. 18.104.22.168 04:41, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't u at least put possibly for first blade cause if he is channeling gods power, wouldn't this mean he is god?
M. Warlow 20:14, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
New layout images!
Hi EmpyreanSmoke, given that you're an admin I'm reaching out to you to let you know I've uploaded new images for this sites layout for the new season. :) I left them in the homepage talk section, but I'm reaching out to admins just incase they don't notice new stuff in the talk section of the homepage. Winchester7314 (talk) 10:52, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
Knight of Hell
Is it ok to alter the infobox pic for Knight of Hell to include Abaddon, cain and Dean? I just think it might be better since they were the only knights shown (and in my opinion, better than simply Tara's notes about them). I won't though, if you disagree. I just thought it would be a good idea to do so Gabriel456 (talk) 00:37, October 10, 2014 (UTC)
Sure, go ahead. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:20 PM, October 9th 2014
I realize it isn't my decision, but I kindly ask you to not answer questions directed to me, on my talk page, thank you ImperiexSeed. And Gabriel456, I think it's a great idea. :) EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 02:38, October 10, 2014 (UTC)
I guess Facebook stopped sending our messages to each other, but I'm still on, if you want to try again. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:54 PM, October 9th 2014
I didn't get any msges from you. Facebook must be screwy EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 03:24, October 10, 2014 (UTC)
I most certainly did send them, though! I just sent some more a few seconds ago but you were still asking if I was there. ugh -- ImperiexSeed, 11:27 PM, October 9th 2014
Reapers aren't angels. Unlike Cherubs which are just a type of angel with a role. Reapers work for Death. Crowley's state about Death's scythe killing Angels, demons, and reapers prove they are separate from Angels. If they were a type of angel, it would have been covered under the angel point of reference. Also, Eric Kriple the Supernatural Series maker didn't introduce the first Angel Castiel as the first official known angel until season 4. Gabriel was made into an Archangel later originally he was just a trickster, the writes it was a nice twist.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:33, October 11, 2014 (UTC)
Then that would make the male reaper in season 1 the first angel. Dean didn't think reapers then were Angels, and Eric Kriple the maker of the series didn't introduce Angels until season 4 as he wanted Castiel to be the first official Angel to be seen. [[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 05:24, October 11, 2014 (UTC)
Normally, once someone in series states something, I go with that. But Dean's statement goes against how Angels weren't seen till season 4 official, and how reapers appeared before them in season 1 and 2. [[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 05:45, October 11, 2014 (UTC)
Gabriel was shown in seasons 2 and 3, so the first angel didnt apear in season 4. It is true that they were officialy intoduced in season 4, but the first angel that appeared in the show was in season 1. As for your statement about Deaths scythe; Crowley is a demon, and isnt aware about everything in the celestial chain. He would have no reason to believe that reapers are angels, so he didnt know they were. Just because he didnt know it, doesnt mean it isnt true. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 04:07, October 12, 2014 (UTC)
Hey, man, is there a reason why you're ignoring me?! Let's work this out, whatever it is. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:33 PM, October 12th 2014
1. For future, please create a new section, as this has nothing to do with te topic of reapers 2. I left a message on your FB EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 20:45, October 12, 2014 (UTC)
Very important, please respond!
Whatever's going on, I do deserve an explanation. It was really rude how you just left and still haven't responded to me, at least explaining what's going on. So, tell me, are you mad at me or what? -- ImperiexSeed, 8:18 PM, October 23rd 2014
22.214.171.124 is continuing to spam the Dean Winchester page and Castiel page with destiel. Just the heads up. I saw your warning in her page.
Hi, I'm new to this wiki, and don't reslly know how to work it. I see that you are an admin, and I was wondering if you could help me out when I have questions? Thanks :) LittleOl'Me (talk) 03:25, October 31, 2014 (UTC)