I don't think we need a seperate page for white eyed demons. We have a page for crossroad demons because that is a specific job that certain demons carry out, and Knights of Hell are also a specific rank, which have unique poweres and immunities within themselves. Creating a whole page dedicated to demons with different colored eyes isn't needed. If others agree that it should be a page, that's fine, it can stay up, but if others agree with me, than we should take it down.
- The specificness, if it exists for either, for the Knights of Hell ranking is, I see, the same as, say, white-eyed demons. And frickin' Hell, there's a page for Ruby's blonde-haired vessel, which we know nothing about, but yet it stands as a page. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:13 PM, March 10th 2015
No, Knights of Hell are a seperate, specific type of demon, with their own title. The only thing we use to seperate these demons from the others is the color of their eyes. Also, Ruby's Blonde Haired vessel is a specific person, while white-eyed demons are just demons with different colored eyes. There isn't much significant difference to create a page for them. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 23:42, March 11, 2015 (UTC)
White-eyed vs Knights of Hell Edit
How do you think white-eyed demons would handle Knights of Hell ?
Considering a Knight's of Hell far superior invulnerability, Lilith or Alastair could only try to shoot them with DemonTrap bullets, use magic to set them to sleep/ immobilize them or obtain The First Blade + Mark of Cain/ Death Scythe. However, judging by their abilities, I think White Eyed are stronger, as Lilith was capable of blasting White Light and Alastair handled Castiel quit effortlessly.Lambda1 (talk) 04:09, September 27, 2015 (UTC)
- In terms of actual physical might, I'd have to say white-eyed demons are stronger than at least some, if not all, of the Knights. Cain is the exception, but only because the mark tredecuples his powers. Without the mark, Cain would bump right down to around where Abaddon is. But the Knights are immune to literally all demonic weaknesses and can only be killed by the First Blade, which makes them more of a threat. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:19 AM, September 27th 2015
- I agree, White-Eyed Demons are are superior in their abilities while Knights of Hell are superior in Invulnerability. Lambda1 (talk) 17:40, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
- These two groups were conceived and developed by two different showrunners so naturally it is difficult to assess and compare them fairly. For one, Carver has to make sure he racks up a credible threat so he is forced to give Knights tons of new unique abilities (i..e, immunity to exorcism, increased resilience, and in Cain's case, smiting lesser demons) to keep the show going. Notice how they conveniently forget to discuss the Knight's relative strength and position regarding White-eyed demons, or even just Lilith herself. They hype up Cain to be personally converted by Lucifer but they conveniently fail to mention that Lilith was turned by the archangel himself and was at the time (along with a fellow WED), the only real demonic threat against angels. They established in the apocalyptic seasons that you can't go any higher in the hierarchy than Lilith unless you stray into archangel territory (Lucifer himself) but now they introduce this new group that seem to be capable of a lot more. Abaddon and Cain mop the floor easily with angels and now reapers are also considered angels, too (which is still stupid, by the wa). It's not fair for previously established characters unless they were developed with the new characters in mind (i.e., demons and angels and their central role in the first 5 seasons). FTWinchester (talk) 17:49, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
Samhain partly a White-Eyed Demon ? Edit
Was Samhain partly a White-Eyed demon ? Obviously his eyes were partly white and for a demon, this is the only true indication to classify them as "White-eyed", "Yellow Eyed", ... I think we should include Samhain as at least partly white-eyed demon. Lambda1 (talk) 21:13, October 8, 2015 (UTC)
- His eyes were blue. It's just that he's a bit like Azazel's - instead of coloring the sclera along with the rest of the eye, he concentrated on the iris. If we counted him as a white-eyed demon, we'd have to count Azazel as well. 184.108.40.206 22:57, March 20, 2016 (UTC)
How do we know Alastair could use the white light? Edit
The entry itself says that Alastair never demonstrated such an ability - how can we say, then, that Alastair was capable of it? 220.127.116.11 23:03, March 20, 2016 (UTC)
Below the Princes?Edit
This article, as well as the Princes of Hell article, refer to the white-eyed demons being below the Princes in the hierarchy, which is stated exactly nowhere in canon. Here's what we do have on the Princes so far:
"CROWLEY: The oldest of the old demons. The first generation after Lilith. Lucifer turned them himself, before the oceans drank Atlantis." - "Stuck in the Middle (With You)" transcript
"CASTIEL: They were trained to be generals, to lead demonic armies in the war against Heaven." - "Stuck in the Middle (With You)" transcript
Training four generals does not necessarily equal designating them as your line of royal heirs. There's further dialogue - by a Prince himself! - to say that the Princes were not picked out by Lucifer to be his heirs:
"CROWLEY: Brings me to your final gift-- the Throne of Hell.
RAMIEL: [scoffs and closes the box] You want me to be king?
CROWLEY: Well, with Lilith and Azazel dead, and Lucifer back in his box, we need a ruler. You are next in line, Ramiel. Prince of Hell.
RAMIEL: It’s just a name. Doesn’t mean anything.
CROWLEY: Still, the crown is yours if you want it." - "Stuck in the Middle (With You)" transcript
Crowley's line - "Well, with Lilith and Azazel dead, and Lucifer back in his box, we need a ruler." - with its reference to other leader figures, indicates it was simply that Ramiel was the next most powerful living demon available to rule Hell, which is why Crowley went and appealed to him. Ramiel's response outright states that "the Princes of Hell" is just a title without real meaning re: succession. For all we know, they and the Knights got into a slapfight of who was more important to King Satan.
The above dialogue does hint pretty heavily that Azazel was King of Hell prior to his death in addition to General of Hell, but it doesn't indicate that he would have outranked Lilith had he survived the Devil's Gate stand-off. In fact, we have statements from the creators stating the exact opposite:
"'In my mind, the very top of the food chain of demons is Lucifer','' [Sera] Gamble reveals. 'But so far on the show he has only been talked about as a legend that some demons believe in. Lilith is just below, Yellow-Eyes was just below Lilith, and then there's this special group of demons that work just for Lilith, the Crossroads Demons.'" - Supernatural: The Official Companion Season 3, p. 105
"In season three, Lilith is the big bad, and she's going to be a lot harder to kill than good ole Yellow-Eyes. 'If you go through real existing folklore about Lilith,' [Eric] Kripke remarks, 'she is generally esteemed as one of the first demons, certainly the first female demon, so we're kind of holding to that; we keep in our heads that that's really what she is, that she very well might have been Adam's first wife and was banished to become a demon. She is older and more powerful than Yellow-Eyes.'" - Supernatural: The Official Companion Season 3, p. 105
These are the demon chiefs of staff.
These are the demon army generals." The Essential Supernatural: On the Road with Sam and Dean Winchester, p. 53, 55
In any government I've ever heard of, chiefs of staff are considered higher up in the political hierarchy than army generals. Granted, we were never able to conclude if info not directly quoted from the show's staff/writers is canon, but since it ties in with information we know to be canon, I'm willing to go with it.
All this information directly contradicts what the information on this and the Princes' pages (probably the general demon page too, haven't checked that) imply/outright state. White-eyed demons are not second in rank to the Princes of Hell. In fact, the Princes of Hell are below the white-eyed demons in the hierarchy, and Azazel at least was weaker than Lilith. To be fair, we can't confirm if Lilith was actually stronger than all the Princes - I personally think so, it wouldn't make sense if she was stronger than one but not all of the demons beneath her - but then again, the most recent important demons have been played as way stronger/angels way weaker than initially described/portrayed in their power dynamics in Season 4.
IMO we should remain to canon as directly stated and traceable by the writers/staff of the show. Supernatural has always been very bad about Show Don't Tell with its characters, and this problem has gotten much, much worse in later years. If and when established canon information is directly disputed - say if Andrew Dabb or Robert Singer do state that the Princes outrank/are stronger than the white-eyed demons (which if they already have, please link it here so we can address it right away) - than we ought to discuss how we should address it in the wiki articles. Until then, we ought to follow precedent and canon already established.NaiflidG (talk) 10:09, March 26, 2017 (UTC)
- Here's the thing: Azazel was in charge before his death, not Lilith. Also, I think Ramiel scoffed because he didn't want the job.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 00:17, March 27, 2017 (UTC)
I have issue with this as well. The ranking was vague because Lilith was explicitly mentioned among those in line for the throne. It could be interpreted that Lilith is a special case being the very first demon, and thus outranking the rest of the Princes, but with the Princes outranking other (if any) WEDs like Alastair. I know retcons are a thing and it's so much easier to outright claim the Princes outrank the WEDs especially because Dagon can kill angels with her bare hands but the fact remains that the show explicitly mentiones that either Lilith or other WEDs are also considered for the throne. Conside the following:
- Was Azazel the ruler of hell or simply because Lilith was imprisoned? Remember Lucifer explicitly ordered Azazel to release Lilith, not just because she was the last seal but also because she could break the others as well. This is canon.
- Was Lilith the leader or along or was it because no other prince was active at the time?
I suggest we word it so that different interpretations are offered and not us choosing just one version of things. There's just too many loopholes for both sides. FTWinchester (talk) 14:10, August 30, 2017 (UTC)
- I'm really not sure. Casey specifically said that Azazel was in charge until his death. And we only have two examples of white-eyed demons: Lilith and Alastair. Alastair is clearly powerful but lesser in rank than Lilith and he doesn't seem as strong as the Princes we've seen. Lilith... is debatable. She didn't take command until after she escaped Hell but Azazel was already dead at that point. And dialogue in the first several episodes suggests that there was no central leader after Azazel's death until around the time they fought Astaroth. That was the first time a new leader of the demons was mentioned.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:37, August 30, 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. It's hard to be sure. Casey said Azazel was in charge, but the most recent information we have (in the same episode they expanded the Princes of Hell lore), they also specifically mention Lilith alongside Azazel and the other princes as the rightful rulers. The question now is was it because Lilith was a White-Eyed demon or was it because she was a special case as the first demon ever created?
And while there are several statements of demons saying there are no leaders--do consider the fact that that time was very chaotic. The demons were led to believe that Sam was supposed to be a leader (or one of the potential leaders), which he wasn't after all, and literally all demons regardless of their power (Astaroth, Pride of the Seven Sins, and even Alastair) didn't know of Ruby's true allegiance and purpose so that Lilith's plan to break all the seals and set Lucifer free would come to fruition. It's hard to pinpoint exactly which demons were in the loop and which ones were intentionally misleading the Winchesters, or which ones were olivious and legitimately trying to grab power for themselves.
I'd argue that the fact that Lilith and Ruby were able to fool the Winchesters and even the other demons about their plan (and succeeding) speaks more about the craftiness of Lilith than her weakness or inability to control the forces of hell. And don't forget the true powerful demons at the time (Alastair, Astaroth, Crowley as King of Crossroads was forced to give the contract to Lilith) were loyal to Lilith. In the grand scheme of things, do words of small-time demonic threats really mean much on who they thought had the power (or lack thereof)? FTWinchester (talk) 15:47, August 30, 2017 (UTC)
Changing status Edit
I agree saying that they are extinct is speculation. We were never told how many there were, how they were made, when they were made (except Lilith) with out that information we can not say that they are all dead either. ThomasNealy (talk) 17:35, December 11, 2017 (UTC)
"Alastair named Death himself as an old friend, who was lastly free, when Noah built the ark." or "He also claimed to be an "old friend" of Death's, who had been imprisoned since Biblical times"
So, what do you think, if somebody writes something like this, is it speculation or an assumption and if you review the edit history, more speculative things can be found in the page ?--Mgdodl (talk) 19:02, November 24, 2019 (UTC)