1) Should we add Metatron to this list while he was powered up by the Angel tablet?
2) Jesse Turner on this page is listed under the 'Extremely powerful' beings, however on the actual Jesse Turner page, he is listed as a Nigh-Omnipotent being under his 'Powers and Abilities'. So my question is, should he be moved up?
I think one could consider Metatron to be extremely powerful, it's just not fitting to include him in the same class like God, Death and The Darkness. Jesse Turner is powerful, but the same is true for him, time to adapt it. Lambda1 (talk) 00:32, October 14, 2015 (UTC)
I never would have put Metatron in the same league as God, Death and The Darkness anyway, so I agree with that. I think he should be put on the page though, preferably above Soul-Cas, under the 'Extremely powerful' section.
As for Jesse, one of the pages needs to be changed then. It's misleading to have him listed as a nigh-omnipotent on one page but not on another.
- Agree, I changed it, I think it fits better with him as advanced reality warper and furthermore a link to this page as "one of the most powerful beings". Lambda1 (talk) 01:12, October 14, 2015 (UTC)
Omnipotence paradoxon Edit
I think this needs to be explained further. Some users seem to be able to understand the paradoxon not fully. It's not just about "Could he create a stone so heavy, he can no longer lift it ?" There are many variations of the problem, that are semantically equivalent. Basically, anything that contradicts itself triggers the problem. An example:
- Solve $ x = \lnot x $ is from the logical perspective the same problem as "Could he create a stone so heavy, he can no longer lift it ?"
To explain $ x = \lnot x $ for those who are unfamiliar with math or computer science; This is a boolean expression, not a equation that is defined on Real Number/ Complex Numbers/... Means, x can either take the values "True" or "False", nothing more. $ x = x $ is always a true statement for x = True, because if you set it in $ x = x $ it's equivalent to True = True, so the statement itself is true. The statement is also true if you set x = False in $ x = x $ because False = False as a statement is True. As these are all possibilitis $ x = x $ is a tautology, means always true for any statement. What about $ x = \lnot x $. We have 2 possibilities, x = True or x = False. Let's set x = True into the equation, (it's defined that "not true = false", "not false = true"), than $ True = not True \iff True = False $ That it a contradiction. True is never False. Lets test out our other possibility: x = False $ False = not False \iff False = True $ that is also a contradiction, because False is not identical to True. As there a no other options left, the equation can't be solved. It's a self contradicting equation, basically the same case we have with the stone. It leads to a contradiction, True = False, and that's the point of the omnipotence paradoxon. There are many variations but they all lead to the same problem. Lambda1 (talk) 16:55, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
Obviously Metatron was not in the same league as God, Death, The Darkness and Soul-Cas. However, given his feats while powered by the Angel tablet, I think he should be at least on the same level as the Archangels.
Jesse Turner vs archangels Edit
Before another edit war occurs, let's shift the discussion over to the place it belongs, right here.
Regarding Jesse Turner's Power, it would not make much sense if he draws his power from Lucifer. Castiel said, that now that Lucifer is on earth, he becomes stronger. This doesn't implicate that he becomes weaker when Lucifer is back in the cage. His powers were merely activated when Lucifer was freed. There is another reason to sustain this argument: If Jesse would draw his power from Lucifer, why would Lucifer need Jesse to destroy the Host of Heaven ? If Jesse receives his power from Lucifer, than Lucifer could annihilate the angels on it's own with just a word. Btw. it's still one of the most horrific episodes of Season 5. Destroying all the angels with a word - Really ? This is something Amara or God could do - but this boy could also accomplish this ? Must be a special God given power. Well, it is since Chuck decided this boys existence in the first place by writing him into the SPN books. This needs a retcon. Lambda1 (talk) 18:43, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
That's why it makes more sense that Jesse would simply become as powerful as an archangel, or somehow combine his power with Lucifer's.
Also, Chuck didn't decide anything. He said he avoids divine intervention at all costs, and the books didn't entirely match reality, meaning he was just predicting the future (and badly, in many instances).
- That's one interpretation, but you can also argue that he decided all the major events. He gave the Winchesters the SPN books and everything happened as predicted. You might argue that Lilith-Sam scene differed from the books version, but he might have just changed his mind or he gave them a wrong version. He said he avoids interventions, but he also confirmed that he intervened on some occasions. Also, keep in mind that the whole Dean- Sam thing happened as it was supposed to happen, for the most part. Gabriel said that they knew since "Dad turned on the lights" it would end with them. Could still be prediction, but there must have been a force that ensured it actually happens as supposed to. However, I don't want to start a discussion on this matter until the next episode comes out. The Dean - Chuck talk might give us some more clues. I suppose Dean punches him. Lambda1 (talk) 19:08, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
- See, I'm just going by what was shown in the series. Chuck made many predictions, but he was also wrong about many of them, from the Sam/Lilith thing to the end of the Michael/Lucifer confrontation. Gabriel said it'd end with the "prize fight", as did every other archangel, and they were all wrong, yet that was the ending God predicted. If you say he made everything happen just because he wanted it to happen that way, then you're saying he's intervened since the beginning of time, and free will doesn't exist (in stark contrast with the series on both counts). If you're saying he changed his mind, then he was still wrong, because he didn't predict he'd change his mind, and his predictions remained the same.
- I'm guessing Dean is either going to punch him, or apologize for holding a gun to his head.
- Orion (T-B-C) 19:16, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
Omnipotence ranking Edit
Please shift over the discussion to the talk page, that is the reason it is there in the first place. I think we all agree that Amara, God and Death belong under the nigh-omnipotent section. We know not so much about Metatron's power when he had the word of god, neither do we know much about the pagan deities at their height. I would also suggest to list every archangel individually, since Michael is certainly a lot stronger than Gabriel. Castiel destroyed Raphael with a snap of his fingers, but it's doubtful that he could do the same with Gabriel, therefore it is better to distinguish between them. Lambda1 (talk) 18:31, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
Yes I agree with Death, God and the Darkness part. We never saw that Deities were able to achieve great things and they are even vulnerable to basic weapons (Stakes). Metatron with word of God was very strong. It has been implied that it granted God-like abilities to him. He was completely invulnerable against angelic weakness. Even it took time Lucifer to distinguish wardings. Castiel snapping Raphael implies that he is stronger than Michael and Lucifer. Even Lucifer can't defeat Gabriel that easily. He believed he could match Death. Wardings effect archangels but he was completely immune to them which means he is far superior of archangels. SeraphLucifer (talk) 18:47, May 15, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
- Well, Lucifer took Gabriel easily down, there was no real fight between them. Also, Castiel was a mutated angel, maybe so much malformed, that the sigils didn't "recognize" him as an angel any longer. It's like using an angel sigil against demons, it can't work, because they were designed to only work on angels. I would say God-Cas was a bit stronger than Michael, maybe 30%. But, we would just restart a discussion that had been discussed a dozen times here. There is a way to get around the problem: We could remove the "Extremely Powerful" section, place them under Lower Tier Nigh -Omnipotence and just enumerate the things Metatron, Lucifer, Michael... were shown to be capable of. This would allow the reader to make their own conclusion. As for the pagans, they should not be placed here at all. Sam mentioned that they were once more powerful, but still definitely not on archangel level. They all depend on things God created in the first place, none of them can create out of nothing and neither can I remember that I saw them at least change pre existing matter (Okay, they fixed a hotel in Hammer of the Gods, can't compare with creating a TV universe like Gabriel did). So no, they really don't belong on this page at all. The most impressive feat I saw a pagan deity achieving was to generate lightning bolts (Zeus) and Fire (Kali). What do you think ? Good work on the Seraph/Zachariah pages, they are now freed from speculation. Lambda1 (talk) 00:29, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
- Yes I definetly agree with you. Pagan gods aren't even near extreme powerful. Thank you by the way. SeraphLucifer (talk) 05:21, May 16, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer