Talk: Monster

Needs a quote

Does anyone remeber a good quote for monsters, that we can put on this page, all the other important pages have one. General MGD 109 23:28, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Not quite sure. Can't seem to remember one that collaborates all them, there's ones that individually describes them, not as a whole. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:36 PM, July 17th 2012

I know, me neither thats why I put the question on here, I figured some one would remeber one, my best guess is it would have been said in the sixth season, that was the surposed monster season. General MGD 109 23:43, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Like there's some for Wendigos, Werewolves, and Shapeshifters, yes. However, there's not one that depicts and circulates them all, possibly other than Eve's comment of them. Maybe she let one slip. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:46 PM, July 17th 2012

That's what I figured, now we just have to wait till some one else thinks of one, or remeber one. On another subject, is there a quote on the ghost page? General MGD 109 23:49, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Dr. Visyak?

As she's mentioned in apperances as a monster, and is a native of Purgetory (which I assume means, her soul goes there when she dies, as nothing naturally lives in Purgetory, as it was made as a prison.) Shouldn't she be mentioned somewhere on this list? General MGD 109 (talk) 22:26, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, we don't know what type of monster she was. So, where would you say we list her? -- ImperiexSeed, 9:17 PM, August 16th 2012

Personally, I think we should make a page for her race of Monster ("Visyak's Race" maybe) that way she can be listed. AaronHW (talk) 03:35, August 17, 2012 (UTC)AaronHW

I like that idea, I'll do it. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:15, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, no, no. Definitely not. Her race was not even seen/mentioned, so no. Sorry, but we know nothing of her race, so making a page for it would be unnecessary. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:39 PM, August 17th 2012

We do know a few things (powers for instance,) but I surpose your right, it isn't enough information to make a page, I'm sorry I didn't see your addition till after I made the page. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:26, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

It's fine, it's just doesn't warrant an entire page. For future reference, if we don't know the name of something, the race (biology, traits, nature), or the like, please don't make a page for it. Thanks. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:57 PM, August 17th 2012

I personally think it does, and I vote for a petition to remove the page from speedy deletion. Wikis are supposed to list all possible things that can be known from a certain universe.

The article is short, definitely, and many info were not explicitly named, but we do know canon things both explicit and implicit about her species. In fact, we know more things about her species than we do with Rawheads, which doesn't seem to be attracting much qualms about its page existing.

FTWinchester (talk) 15:50, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Votes 2 Leviathans vs 10 jefferson starships who won

Shapeshifters eating humans?

Isn't it possible that Edgar mean shapeshifters are vunerable to vamptonite in general. Because assuming that shapeshifters dont eat humans and eat the same food humans do then presumably they'd still be poisoned by it. Which would make more sense as the leviathan were trying to exterminate all things which kill humans or eat them. So it's more likely shapeshifters don't eat humans but actually are just vunerable to the syrup. 

Ranking Queries

Although not mentioned in the series, the Ōkami is stated in Bobby Singer's Guide to Hunting to be pretty much a Japanese werewolf. I don't know for sure if the book is canon, but it is official. The Ōkami in the book is the same Ōkami that Bobby references in the episode Weekend at Bobby's. Even so, the criteria for ranking monsters on this page is a bit vague, to begin with. I suggest we rank the Ōkami along with the Werewolf. FTWinchester (talk) 19:37, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

So there similair in traits, that doesn't put them on the same level, Werewolves are higher-tier monsters, when ever they refer to one, it near always described in a way showing great respect and fear for them, for example when listing his achivements, in a self motivation speach (Of Grave Importance), of all the monsters he's ever faced, Bobby chose werewolves, likewise Dean describes them as "Bad Ass" and "Powerful" (Heart). The Okami in "Weekend At Bobbys" Didn't seem to be that powerful, I mean granted Bobby only defeats it using a food chipper, but still, it was hardly that strong, from what we've seen it doesn't seem strong enough to rank it in the same level, Skinwalkers have also been called the cousin of the werewolf, but there hardly of the same rank. If it returns, and if proves tougher, then yes it can be moved up, but until then all the evidence we have say its weaker monsters. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:28, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

The book did not just say cousin. The book meant similar in every way other than their geographical distribution and weakness. Jefferson Starships were supposedly the perfect beast, but in their debut and only appearance, they were also killed rather easily by Sam and Dean in the precinct. FTWinchester (talk) 23:32, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Well the thing is books can't always be taken for face value, and my point is the Okami didn't seem that powerful in the episode. As for the Jefferson Starships, in all fairness there were only three of them, two were killed by the four, and they may have been strong monsters, but Bobby, Sam, Dean and Cass are all highly capable fighters, the fact they carry silver knifes gave them a edge over them. Besides don't forget Eve was still working out the kinks at the time, the ones near the end, fared a lot better, so perhaphs she had only just finished perfecting them. By the way, thanks about the Banshee, I was unaware of this information. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:54, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Anyway, before I start correcting spelling on the feeding habits, do you recall any instance saying dragons feed solely on virgins? As far as I remember, they were only abducting virgins to find Eve a vessel. FTWinchester (talk) 00:04, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Glad you've seen sense, and I know it wasn't stated, but it is implied, for starters one of the distingushing traits, they use to identify them is the virgins, something which is common in european dragon lore (and some asian I think) second they only needed one girl to be Eve's vessel, what do you think all the others ones they captured were for? Thirdly it stands to reason, as at no point were they shown abducting anyother type of person, so what did they eat? It wasn't directly stated, but its quiet obvious from the episode thats what they do, plus thats what the real world lore says, so its mearly a case of putting two and two togther. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:10, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

You can't blame me for asking. I have experienced a lot of double standards in this wiki where someone would not take an implicit canon reference but would accept info from vaguely canon sources. At least the debate would be limited on the talk page instead of becoming an edit tug-of-war. FTWinchester (talk) 00:13, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't blame you, your perfectly right to check, I to have experianced this problem, and undid countless edits where just that had happened. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:21, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Shapeshifters?

when edgar points out that the food additive kills shifters couldnt he just have meant that if shifters eat actual food with the additve they'll die? cause shifters have never been seen eating or even expressing the desire to eat humans so presumably they eat something else. and if that was just regular food then the shifters might just die when eating that rather than eating humans. does that make more sense?

Let's not forget, Leviathan are way, way older than humans, and even Angels and Archangels. So they'd know a lot about the nature and characteristics of a Shapeshifter. So, if they said a Shifter would die upon eating their additive, it likely implies that they need nourishment, or even that they need human food. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:24 PM, February 14th 2013

Familiar?

Are Familiar's really monsters? They admit that if there not it begs the question what are they. But they don't seem like monsters, they seem more akin to Gollems, creatures created by magic. Also at no point was it referanced they were monsters, or anything like monsters. Should we class them as monsters or not? What do you think. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:54, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Okami ranking?

The page states that low ranking monsters have the weakest abilities and are the easiest to kill. But okami are still listed. While they possess few abilties, aren't they probably one of the hardest to kill. I mean how easy is it to stab a vicious creature seven times with a bamboo dagger blessed by a shinto priest? Granted Bobby's woodchipper works wonders but woodchipper trumps everything. So shouldn't okami rank higher just due to how hard they are to kill?

That is a very good point, okay I'll move it up a class. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:23, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Wendigo

This is really just me having fun and thinking out loud, and I know that wendigos are humans that turned cannibal but I think it would be interesting if that wasn't only a human thing, say if a vampire ate another vampire then it would become more powerful and blah blah, just thought it was interesting, plus I miss wendigos, they're one of my favorite monsters. 

I love that idea, it is brillaint. General MGD 109 (talk) 01:55, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Cannibalism is most likely just one of numeral factors needed to cause the changing into a wendigo, although I could be wrong. I really feel you're grasping at straws on this. But depending on the number of factors, a vampire eating another vampire may or may not be enough to cause a shifting of their entire physiology to a wendigo. So if any angel ate another angel, they'd what, turn into a wendigo? -- ImperiexSeed, 4:19 PM, March 1st 2014

That's, as far as I know, is how turning into a wendigo works for humans. Also take note this is just an idea and not an arguement or anything like that. As I understand it, a human would eat one or more other humans to survive then turning themselves into a wendigo. I don't think if an angel ate another angel they would turn into a wendigo, this was more of an idea that I thought would be cool. Bigmar6775 (talk) 23:22, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

No? Then fine, but then the act of cannibalism isn't the determining factor for changing into a wendigo. What, would you say, makes the difference for humans then an angel or another creature? Since we're throwing out ideas, I'm curious. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:35 PM, March 2nd 2014

Once again, just an idea. In the actual Supernatural universe, only humans can turn into a wendigo. This was more of a fan idea. If angel ate another angel on the show, it probably wouldn't turn into a wendigo. Angels exist on a different plane of existence also so that could change things. Maybe a vampire eating a vampire could turn into some sort of hybrid, but I really don't know. Once again... Idea.Bigmar6775 (talk) 20:59, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Please don't say that again, I know it's an idea. That may well be, but "just a human thing" is very ambiguous but I'll leave this be. However, I'd like you to see I was just trying to stretch this out into what is the reasoning why cannibalizing just turns them into a wendigo-what is the underlining factor, or are there components without which would disrupt this process? Very well, the angel thing is satisfactorily reasonable. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:31 PM, March 3rd 2014

Unranked Monsters

The Tiers system has left out a fair number of monsters and possible-monsters: Crocata, Shtriga (which the show identifies as a kind of witch but behaves more like a monster) Rakshasa, Baku, Banshee, Soul Eaters, Bisaan, Pishtaco, plus all the creatures from the comics and novels (such as Selkies, Oni, and Borderwalkers).

Monsters omitted

Couldn't help but notice that Crocotta, Rakshasa, Sirens and Pishtacos have been omitted, these were on here before. Any reason why they're not considered monsters now? They're still listed as monsters on the superwiki.

Edit: Also I happen to be watching a Season 10 episode "Hibbing 911". When Donna Hanscum asked Dean about the events in the episode The Purge, Dean refers to the Pishtacos as "Monsters sucking on your fat". Bkshadows (talk)

So there has to be no consensus as to the removal of Crocotta, Pishtacos, and Rakshasa from the monster list? Are they going to another list, are are they just free-standing beings now? Reka12452 (talk) 15:58, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

Uhm hey, sorry for late response. Monsters are children of Eve. We have no clue that Crocotta, Siren and Rakshasa are monsters. Most of the beings are referred are monsters but few of them were confirmed to be one. I am still not sure about Kitsune tho. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:06, November 5, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Ok, I guess I'm getting hung up on the phrase "confirmed to be one." What did/does this confirmation process consist of? If monsters are *only* the ones that we saw or know that Crowley rounded up, there are few other non-monsters on the current monster list as well. Dean calling something a monster doesn't "confirm"? Besides, the person that removed the aformentioned beings from the list didn't even move them to the "Unknown Ranking" or "Non-Canon" sections, they simply removed them the monster page altogether. Reka12452 (talk) 16:59, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

Which ones are not monsters on the list you think? If Dean/Sam calls something monster, that doesn't really confirm that thing is a monster. They called Crowley, Deities monster either. What do you think we should do anyways Reka? SeraphLucifer (talk) 17:06, November 5, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

A group of beings where edited out of the monsters page with the explanation "Those are not confirmed to be monsters". When i saw that, I thought "crocottas, pichtacos and arachne aren't confirmed monsters?? Well then, what are they?? What's 'confirmation' consist of? Are they just in confirmation purgatory?? Will they ever find a home on page? Then I saw vetalas, and lamias and kitsune on the page and I thought, "what confirmation process happened with them, that didn't happen the crocottas, pishtacos and other deleted ones? It can't be that one group is hunger-based and the other isn't, or that one group were captured by Crowley or seen in purgatory and the other wasn't, so what is the litmus test? So, i'm not declaring "we should do" anything, it would just be nice to be enlightened with answers to these questions so that i understand what/who makes the non-obvious monster determinations. Reka12452 (talk) 18:09, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Reka, as he said I'm not sure what/who is making the non monster determinations. They're still listed as monsters on the Supernatural Super Wiki. While Dean and Sam have referred to Crowley and others as monsters many times. Dean also referred to Tessa as an "angel" in one line of the series and it destroyed several years of canon. We took Dean at his word then. Shouldn't we take it now? He definitely called pishtacos monsters, so I'm inclined to believe they are along with arachnes. Sam and Samuel said the last one was seen 2000 years earlier only for one to show up after they discussed how all of the monsters were acting erratic that season when Crowley put his Purgatory plan in motion. I generally assumed that most of the creatures on Supernatural were children of Eve and monsters excluding spiritual creatures such as Soul Eaters, Shojos, Banshees etc. I'm just not sure what happened as Reka asked what is the test on declaring what is a monster and what isn't? Bkshadows

Well, the list used to contain every single creature we saw in the show. But after season 6, monsters were revealed to be descendants of Eve. So we have to put the confirmed creatures that were related to Eve. I was doing the list recently, without adding any kind of speculation of course. Firstly, Alphas are confirmed to be Eve's children. That proves werewolves, shapeshifters, vampires etc. are monsters. Wendigo was also confirmed to be a monster, Ellsworth confirmed that. Okami and Lamia were confirmed by Bobby and they migrated US in order to join Eve. Nachzehrers are related with ghouls and vampires. Also, ep 9x20 revealed that Vetalas are monsters either. Most importantly, the creatures end up in Purgatory are monsters as you know. I don't think Arachne, Crocotta are monsters but I'll check transcripts again. Only, I am not sure about Kitsune on that list. It's good that you brought this topic up. We need discuss and renew the page. SeraphLucifer (talk) 08:34, November 6, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Hey, Seraph. i guess i just haven't conveyed to you why your repeating "Eve's children" isn't clearing up anything for me. I of course already know that Alphas, etc. are Eve's Children. What i don't understand is why you think that the beings you took off that list ARE NOT ALSO HER CHILDREN. *OR* if they are not her children, why they are not still monsters but simply another branch. Motherless monsters, if you will. Because when was the word "monsters" deemed synonymous with "Eve's children"? What other category have you decided that we call these outliers? and btw, i don't understand how Eve can be the mother of formerly human wendigos just because Ellsworth uttered their name, but Dean's say-so is no good for pishtacos. Am i making sense? Anyone?Reka12452 (talk) 09:53, November 6, 2016 (UTC)

I get what your saying Reka, I'm just as baffled as you are. As Reka said of course we already know that alphas etc are Eve's children.. what we don't understand is why you think that the beings you took off that list are not also her children? Again I thought the show established very clearly in Season 6 that EVERY supernatural creature excluding Angels and Demons can be traced back to Eve. As Ben Edlund said "Eve is the mother of a bloodline, the birthing entity at the moment of genesis for ALL the lines of monsterdom." We know that includes Vampires, werewolves, etc.. Why wouldn't this still include Arachnes, Crocottas, Pishtacos and Sirens? They were all called monsters by one character or another in their respective episodes. What were asking is what is your reasoning for believing they're not monsters? and who said they weren't in Purgatory? As Reka again pointed out how can we take the word of Ellsworth's when he says its a monster but not Dean's? Dean explicitly stated pishtacos were monsters. Sure he could have been using slang, as they sometimes do, but this also goes back to the argument in season 9 over the Tessa is a angel comment. I'll always believe he was using slang, a few other users did as well but it was the decision of the community that since we saw him on screen calling Tessa an angel. It was established as canon, I think this situation should be no different.

The only creatures that I am unsure of as being monsters are Banshees, Soul Eaters and Shojos because they're non-corporeal spiritual beings. Where as Eve herself was corporeal. However that's just my personal opinion, they too could also very well be her children. Bkshadows

Hey guys, I am so sorry for the late response "again" , I checked the transcripts and most of them are not even called as monster on the episode. This list was made by someone way before I join the wiki. I changed them as we don't have an exact proof that some of them are not monsters. Without certain confirmations, we can't presume that they are monsters. For example Arachne. As you know Greek Gods exist on the show and they could be created by either Zeus, Prometheus etc. but that is a speculation too. First of all, we are certain that the creatures that end up in Purgatory are monsters, the ones Crowley captured and Alphas. By the way Tessa has been called angel by Dean did not put Reapers in angel category. This Wiki's only unreliable page is Reapers, we still discuss it with FTWinchester. And Reka, I'd say that Crocotta Soul Eater is monster but Season 6 changed the definition of "Monster" as you know. If you have any suggesstions and questions about certain monsters, lets talk about them if they belong to the list or not. SeraphLucifer (talk) 15:09, November 18, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Nothing is for certain on Supernatural, new ideas or retcons keep popping up everywhere, like Mary still hunting after Dean was born. It's best not to take in new information and remove all past information. A creature that is neither human, angel nor demon belongs here, as there is no other category for it. Although Ben Edlund said "all the lines of monsterdom" descend from Eve, it is never explicitly stated what and what not that includes. We don't know where Shojos came from, and wendigos were human beings who ate human flesh. The word "monster" is also used rather loosely, with Gabriel referring to pagan deities as monsters in "Hammer of the Gods", but they are not Eve's children, are they? At least, their true origin has never been made clear.

Personally, I think this page should be the home for all non-angels, non-humans, non-deities and non-demons. Unless the show makes things clear, we need to be a little more lenient with how we use categories and pages, not be super strict about who or what goes where. Kajune (talk) 15:32, November 18, 2016 (UTC)

Well, then we'll add every creatures on this page divided by 2 sections; ones that are descendants of Eve and the unconfirmed ones. Any other offerings or views? SeraphLucifer (talk) 15:36, November 18, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I think that all creatures in SPN other than the obvious exceptions are part of "monsterdom" and belong on the page. I find that the emphasis on 'confirmation' just serves to shine a light on lapses in the writing, frankly, which kind of annoys me. Having said that, as long as all monsters are acknowledged on the page, i won't fuss about what section they're assigned to. 00:06, November 19, 2016 (UTC) Reka12452 (talk) 00:08, November 19, 2016 (UTC)

I'm in agreement to list all of the monsters out, as Reka said I don't mind what categories they're in, as long as they're listed on the page. I feel creatures that are neither angel, demon, or deity belong here. Bkshadows

I'll rewrite the page then. Please comment after the changes if it is okay or it needs additional changes. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:57, November 22, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

New Monsters Season 12

Are there new Monsters in Season 12?