Talk:Michael

Appearances

Sympathy for the Devil isn't the first time Michael was mentioned he was also mention in 2.13 {C "Houses of the Holy" 64.141.83.253 23:45, September 28, 2009 (UTC) Smallville94

It's not confirmed who is stronger, Luciifer or Michael

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Actually, it has been mentioned several times in the show that Michael is either slightly stronger or much stronger than Lucifer, both out of common sense that he is the older brother (who "practically raised" Lucifer since he was born), by Dean's confidence about him being able to kill him, which is a clear way for the producers of the show to get this message across ("We go nuclear..." "...Michael can ice the devil." "Battle's gonna' torch half the planet."), by Lucifer's confidence that his plan will succeed because he knew Dean would not say 'yes' to him (in 5x04), by Lucifer's speech about Michael to Sam where he mentioned that he "idolized" Michael and that Lucifer had "begged" him to "stand with me" (which could possibly mean that Michael was his mentor), by Lucifer's almost 'fearful' (to a certain degree) reactions, given by his facial expressions to Michael's words in the fifth season finale, and finally by the fact that it was Michael who fought, defeated and banished Lucifer to the Cage in the first place. It's also presumable and likely that the power of a certain angel is determined by their age: this would explain why the first four angels are called 'Archangels' and why Gabriel has less power than Lucifer, who is older than him, and why all younger angels have much less power than the Archangels.

Swan Song Updates

There needs to be some updates from Swan Song for example Location Changed to hell and Occupation Former Viceroy of Heaven since Castiel now has that posistion

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As a matter of fact, Castiel is fighting for that position since Raphael wants to take it temporarily to be able to release Michael and Lucifer from the Cage. It's still unclear whether Castiel in fact wants the position for himself or if he simply wants to stop Raphael.

From the Transcript of Supernatural Season 7 episode 1 Meet the new boss.

CROWLEY: {C I take it you intend to keep the live share? So, what you're saying is hell's being downsized?

CASTIEL: {C I would have done away with it completely, but I need a threat to hold over my enemies, and we need to keep Michael and Lucifer's cage.

Now this is not to change anything. But an wikiauser as they were not logged in stated that that was Castiel's exact words. While its not unrealistic to see how its said that he/she would think that this is the exact words.: The Twilight of Your Despair 17:09, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Here's is a link to the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfL6VDmgKRs&feature=endsceen

If you turn up the volume and listenly carefully, Castiel clearly says "And we need to keep Micheal "in" Lucifer's Cage", as you do not hear the "duh" sound. 76.212.204.224 17:37, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I rewatched the scene at full volume a few times and I still clearly hear Castiel say "And we need to keep Micheal "in" Lucifer's Cage." Although your suggestion is a possibilty, there is no way prove otherwise. As far as we know it could also be a result to a slight dialog change as the scene was being filmed or even a typo in the transcript. In the case of dilalog, we must go by the episodes themselves over transcripts as the former is the finished product. 76.212.204.123 20:45, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, regardless of what was said, it's clear (from watching) that Michael's stronger than Cas, while powered by Purgatory's souls. Good day. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:58 PM, February 17th 2012

That is still sepeculation. Until a Salute to Supernatural, a Supernatural Book, Interview with directors cast and crew etc confirms it. If you admin ImperiexSeed state on the articles for the record that Casteil powered by Souls aka Godstiel was weaker than Michael or Lucifer than you have broken you own rule of no Sepeculation. Once its official from the series itself I would never question.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:05, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, are you accusing me of speculation?! You have no such right, unless I speculate. Cas clearly seemed worried about them escaping, but yet you're telling me he's the stronger one, which makes no sense. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:13 PM, February 17th 2012

I never accuse you of speculation. However while I don't think he could have snapped his fingers and killed him like Rapheal I think could have at least Fight them equally (but that speculation on to itself). For his statements that he would have done away with the realm Hell itself as told to Crowley. As well as believing he kill Death a being at least as strong as the true God. I was thinking that until its stated it could be offically stated it could remain unknown on both accounts. As if you put one and come to find out later its the other one you have to reedit everything that isn't right.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:25, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

The reason why Cas didn't try to use Death instead of God kill Lucifer was that Death is not suppose to be controlled and is an unbias force that reaps all life.: The Twilight of Your Despair 16:31, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Seasons 5 companion.

So on Michael's page it mentions in the season 5 companion that it was stated that Death is more powerful than Michael. Can anyone post a picture of that so whenever I see a person saying that Michael is stronger can shut up about it? There's a Michael lover on YouTube who downright refuses to believe that Death is stronger than Michael.L4D2 Ellis 18:24, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Michael, and where he falls on the strength-scale

The majority accept that Michael comes third on the strength grid (I think), but some say because it's hasn't been stated, that it doesn't count. But I say, let's look at the fact. God and Death come first, obviously. And seeing as Castiel was scared of Michael after absorbing all of Purgatory's souls, he has to come next. He was made Heaven's Viceroy, so he is theoretically stronger than any Earthly creature. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:57 PM, September 29th 2012

Just because Castiel was scared of Michael doesn't make Michael stronger. Lucifer is the only other Archangel whose powers are said to rival Michael's. Slightly weaker but he comes the closest. If Michael is more powerful than Castiel, then that would mean Michael has the power to snap his fingers and cause Gabriel and Raphael to explode. Do you really think the power scale between the Archangels to be that large? Another person on YouTube had the same arguement but I find it illogical. Why would God create 2 incredibly powerful Archangels then 2 incredibly weak ones by comparision and still have them be called Archangels? Now back to Castiel being scared of Michael after absorbing the Purgatory souls. If we based Michael's powers on that then that would mean that Death is weaker than or equal to Michael. Castiel showed no fear of him until after Death put him in his place. Castiel was confident that he could take on Death but not Michael. Doesn't really work does it? Michael also seems to be vulnerable to some angel weaknesses like the Holy Fire and the Angel Banishment Sigil. Michael made it a point to ruin them before touching down and talking to Dean. Castiel has said that the sigils don't work on him as he was able to find Crowley and to add that, the angel blade did not work on him. I would think that Castiel is more powerful than Michael but still didn't want to deal with him as he couldn't kill him as easily.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:26, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? ....Like really. God created them differently, and for different purposes, so of course their power level are going to differ: Raphael for protecting and monitoring prophets, Gabriel as his Greatest Messenger, Lucifer as his most radiant creation, and Michael as his mightiest. And Death could've killed him in an instant, but Castiel was swept up in his new-found power, and was arrogant. This is how the scale is set up: God > Death > Michael > Lucifer -- ImperiexSeed, 12:40 PM, September 29th 2012

Seems like you didn't put any thought to what I even said. Looks as though you just glazed over and got the jist of what I said.

I doubt their level power should be that wide of a margin. Castiel's ability to snap his fingers and explode an Archangel reflects what Raphael did to him. Meaning that Michael and Raphael's power levels are that wide of a margin. Just because their jobs are different shouldn't make their powers levels be that much of a difference. All 4 of them are Archangels, meaning their powers should be similar in strength but just with different jobs. What I mean is Michael and Lucifer should not be considered Archangels and be an entirely different order of angels due to their great strength. Or Michael and Lucifer should be considered Archangels as Archangels are said to be the strongest angels ever, with Gabriel and Raphael being their own class just below Archangels. Anna, Castiel, Uriel, Balthazar, Rachel, Inias and Hester were all in the same garrison with Anna as their lead. She was the strongest of their garrison but I doubt the strength was that significant.

Yes I know Castiel was swept up in his new found powers but it makes absolutely no sense for him to fear Michael but not fear Death. That shows no testament to Michael's strength. He was arrogant enough to believe that he could take on Death himself but not Michael or Lucifer.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:17, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

But it is that elaborate; Michael > Lucifer > Gabriel > Raphael. Michael likely could not just, say, snap his fingers and kill Cas while he absorbed the souls, but I am say he'd ultimately win. But their job should correlate to their power, like Gabriel as God's Greatest Messenger, he's skilled in teleporting and delivery. So what, are you saying Michael and Lucifer are Seraphim, cause they're ordered differently in Supernatural. Zachariah is clearly a Seraph, and he's below Archangels, so that substantiates the premise that all four of them are Archangels, and plus Anna states that only four Angels have ever see and conversed with God, and all them seem to have a pretty good idea of God and his personality. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:48 PM, September 29th 2012

Yes I know it's Michael>Lucifer>Gabriel> Raphael. But you make it sound like Michael>Lucifer-8,000 mile gap->Gabriel>Raphael. I just don't believe that the power gap between the 2 greatest Archangels and the 2 weakest ones are that large. It just makes it sound like Gabriel and Raphael are barely above Zachariah. Zachariah admits that Lucifer is incredibly powerful, but he himself is powerful enough to be the Winchester's worst enemy if he needs to be. Making it seem as though the powers between Archangels and Seraphs aren't that large. I also don't think that Michael would ever win in a fight with Castiel at all. I would think that Michael is strong enough to withstand the explosion but not enough to actually defeat Castiel. He would just be powerful enough to be a thorn in Castiel's side. Castiel was clearly above any Archangel with his immunity to the angel blade, angel sigils, his lack of flapping wings when he teleports and the fact that he was able to easily kill Raphael by snapping his fingers.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

There's large discrepencies. Death, a being a diverse knowledge, calls him a mutated Angel, which implicates he's still an Angel, yet none of the Angelic weaknesses affected him and he said himself he's not an Angel anymore. See the inconsistencies there? Even Angels hold Archangels in high esteem, just listen to the diolouge and the tone when the word "Archangels" is used. Even Zachariah - a self-obsessed Angel - admits Lucifer is powerful, and even equates Michael as they're leader, which means he's his leader. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:34 PM, September 29th 2012

A mutated angel yes, but still above Michael and explains why none of the Angelic weaknesses affect him yet clearly affects Michael.

And your point with Angels holding Archangels in high esteem would be??? Do you actually think before you reply to me? Because it looks like you go off saying something completely irrelevant to the topic. I really don't see the point in you bringing up how Angels hold Archangels up on a high esteem has anything to do with the power scale between the 4 Archangels and Zachriah's power.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't rememver specifying "8,000", so you made that number up yourself, which isn't reletory to this. Truth of the matter is, Michael is more powerful than Castiel after he absorbed all of Purgatory's souls. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:00 PM, September 29th 2012

It shows exaggeration. And yes that number is perfectly related to what I am saying. There is no truth in that Michael is more powerful than God!Castiel. We have absolutely nothing to go on other than Castiel's fear of him. On the other hand, we have plenty to go on in how God!Castiel is more powerful than Michael. I highly doubt that power scale between Michael and Raphael is large enough that Michael can kill Raphael that easily with a snap of the fingers. Raphael did the exact same thing to Castiel at the end of season 4 in Chuck's house. So when you say that Michael is more powerful than Castiel on Purgatory souls, it indirectly means that the power scale of Michael and Raphael is the same as the power scale between Raphael and normal powered Castiel. Do you see how illogical that is? Michael and Raphael are in the same class, the Archangels. To have their power scale so radically different is ridiculous when they're in the same order. That's like saying Anna is far superior to the lower members of her garrison like Hester and Inias. This clearly isn't true at all. Seriously, think long and hard about it and you'll realize how stupid the idea that Michael is that more powerful than Raphael. Michael can still kick his brother's ass any day but I highly doubt he could snap his fingers and explode Raphael. Lucifer didn't do that either when Gabriel was threatening him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:19, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I do see what you're saying, but are you suggesting I don't what I'm talking about? In lore, Michael is defined as Who is Like God (however that cannot be, since no one possessed the power that God does); no other Angel has a title remotely that relative. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:46 PM, September 29th 2012

I am suggesting that your belief in Michael being stronger than God!Castiel which translates to Michael and Raphael's scale of power reflects the power scale between Raphael and Castiel being the same is illogical to the point of absurdity. There is no way that Michael can snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. Real lore doesn't mean a damn thing in the Supernatural Universe. No one is like God and the only being that comes closest is Death. There is absolutely no possibility that Michael can defeat Castiel in any way whatsoever when Castiel was strengthened on souls in terms of raw power. Real lore no longer applies to Supernatural when the writers have changed it. And isn't exactly relevant to the argument here at all. Michael is naturally the 3rd most powerful being in the entire universe, with the Leviathans being the most resistant of God's creations. That's the only way he would be considered like God in the Supernatural Universe. Castiel took Michael's spot at the 3rd most powerful being when he was made into a mutated angel. You have failed to provide evidence within the show itself that Michael is more powerful than Castiel other than the latter's fear of him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:20, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I recall Castiel saying that Michael is much more powerful than Raphael. L4D2, you have failed to provide evidence that Michael can't snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. They have never had a feud in the show, therefore you can never know if Michael can do that. You have no proof whatsoever of Michael being unable to destroy Raphael with the snap of his fingers. Auditore7 (talk) 21:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

It is illogical to think that the power scale between Michael and Raphael is that great. Sure Michael is more powerful than Raphael but I highly doubt he can snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael so easily. Actually read my arguments and see why I think it's an absurd idea. I have provided evidence in what is shown in the show. It makes no sense for 2 angels in the same garrison to have a power scale that radically different from another. Raphael was able to obliterate Castiel at the end of season 4 because of their logical power scales. Castiel being on one of the lowest with Raphael being at the highest. Saying that Michael is so much more powerful compared to Raphael is ridiculous. Should they really be grouped together when their level of powers are on opposite ends of the scale? I think not. It would still make sense for Raphael to be the weakest Archangel but not to the point where he's nothing compared to Michael.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:57, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

While your assumptions are reasonable, you must accept that Michael is in fact much, much more powerful than Raphael. We have agreed here that the power scale of the Archagels is Michael>Lucifer>Raphael>Gabriel, right? Well it has been made clear that Lucifer is quite more powerful than Raphael or Gabriel as Gabriel got killed by Lucifer with ease and Raphael didn't even think of oposing him. Also it has been reasoned that Michael is more powerful than Lucifer. So reasonably in the best case scenario, in which the Archangels powers are consistantly increasing, Michael would be twice as powerful as Raphael. However that is unlikely, as it seems there's a gap of power between Raphael and Lucifer, the latter being quite more powerful. Then Michael being, by a little or much, more powerful than Lucifer, it isn't hard to see that Michael would be immensly more powerful than Raphael. As for the garrison thing, for me it seems as if the Archangels are in two groups by two, Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer, Michael, the latter exponentially more powerful. For God!Castiel, I would wager he stands somewhere between Lucifer and Michael on the power scale, however even if he was, in some way more powerful than Michael (which he clearly isn't) God!Castiel cannot be taken as God's creation as Castiel brought himself to that power by absorbing the souls, rather than God creating him with that power. Auditore7 (talk) 11:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards agreeing with L4D2 Ellis on this. While there is no proof that Michael cannot destroy Raphael with a snap of his fingers, there is also no proof that he can. There is also some validity in L4D2 Ellis's inductive reasoning of how much each Archangel's 'power levels' can vary, but again, it's not conclusive. That being said, I should think it would be best if we remove the statement completely. While we cannot necessarily prove that he isn't the third most powerful being in the universe (even if some evidence pointing towards this), it still is a disputable statement that is open to speculation. Given that it lacks hard evidence/fact to support it, and that the burden of proof is on the provision of this evidence in order to include this statement, the only thing we can do is remove this highly-questionable statement from the article. Calebchiam ^Talk 13:37, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could always include a small paragraph stating the above-two schools of thought regarding Michael's power level, with no bias towards either. Calebchiam ^Talk 13:44, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I was, setting another point: even if God!Castiel is more powerful than Michael, he is not God's creation and as such cannot displace Michael from his position of 'Most powerful creation of God'. Auditore7 (talk) 16:49, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

• While I'm not disagreeing that Michael could be twice as strong as Raphael, as he easily could be, what I'm disagreeing with is that Michael is so much more powerful than Raphael in that he could snap his fingers and obliterate a fellow Archangels who is in the same class as himself. I doubt you can kill someone that easily if you're twice as powerful as another. As I said before, the power scale of Michael and Raphael would be the same as Raphael and Castiel if we go with Michael being able to kill his Archangel brother with a snap of his fingers. It's significantly more than twice the power. I find that wide power margin illogical for 2 angels who are in the same garrison. Michael is more powerful than Raphael, that is a known fact, but not to the point both you and ImperixSeed would like to think.
• Lucifer was only able to kill Gabriel easily because he knew every single one of his brother's tricks. Lucifer had the upper hand through wit. If it were a fight using only magic, Gabriel would be able to match Lucifer for a while but ultimately, he would be killed as Lucifer is stronger. And I don't believe Michael is much more powerful than Lucifer either. He would ultimately win in a fight between the 2 of them, but Lucifer was confident that he could defeat Michael, hinting that their power differences isn't much.
• As for the Archangel power scale, I think it's more Michael>Lucifer>Gabriel>Raphael. The way the three brothers talked about their fights and no mention of Raphael, makes it seem like Raphael was the youngest and the ignored brother.
• I highly doubt that God!Castiel is between the powers of Michael and Lucifer. As I reasoned before, it is highly illogical to the point of absurdity. If God!Castiel is between the power scale of Michael and Lucifer, it again translates to Michael being able to snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. This I just refuse to accept when I think about it logically. And I only meant that God!Castiel being the 3rd more powerful being in general. Naturally by creation, Michael is the 3rd most powerful being and God's most powerful creation.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:06, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

All THEROIES based off opinions of myself, from what has been hinted and said. As to where Michael falls into power, I would say that he is God's most powerful angel and Archangel. Yes, Lucifer is weaker, but not like from Michael to Uriel in that range. After all they had to battle which would result in immense and I mean immense damage to the Earth. And Lucifer even said they mostly likely kill each other in Swan Dive. Now, before we go all into the Leviathan thing. I am OPEN to the theory that like regular angels, they are immune to angelic power from the Archangels. However, as neither is state or hinted really toward the Archangels we do not know for sure. (After, Castiel's vessal was decaying or melting as Death said from the Leviathans inside while he had million of souls inside.)

As to Michael when compared to Soul Powered Castiel or Godstiel. We don't know for sure, yes one comment makes people think he was saying that he was weaker than Michael. HOWEVER, right before that he told Crowley in regard toward Hells, he would have done away with it completely. (Now he could have meant destroy or shut down. But if he meant the first one, that takes power to destroy a spiritual world. Now I am open to that Michael could have done the same as well. But, yes it would be up to the writers to make a better story for the two Archangel brothers to fight, than just have Michael destroy all of Hell to get to Lucifer.) Now, back to Godstiel. It's hard to take into account, which comments hold more weight. But, I remember that Balthazar said to Castiel that taking in 30-40 million souls from Purgatory it would most likely take out Castiel and haft the planet too. Now if Lucifer and Michael's final battle, which would be the collective force of their total overall strength destroy the Earth. It would make more logically sense, in my opinion that a being with energy or a power source that can do identical damage at base level might be stronger.

After, all the souls by this theory would just be absorbed and released. They wouldn't be harnessed to their full power. Like a real supernatural atomic bomb. Meaning, 30-40 million souls are like the raw material that can make damage comparible to Lucifer and Michael's final battle. Now image that power correctly used and profound to max strength. Now maybe Castiel, didn't know HOW to use it yet correctly. But sigils didn't hide Crowley from him, and even Lucifer and Michael cannot sense where Sam and Dean were with the Sigils on their ribcages. As Castiel found them with Death. (At the same time, he could have just sensed Death or Bobby and guessed that Sam and Dean were with them.) Back to using it the power correctly, after all, if he did he would have stopped the Leviathans from destroying his Vessal aka Jimmy himself. Again all this is theories.

Final point. Michael is God most powerful individual Angel, Archangel, and being to date that HE created. Once and if the Leviathan's angelic power immunity is completely understand than we will know for sure. As for Castiel or Godstiel against Michael. My opinion is and has been this, he was or at least had power least equal to Michael or to some degree above him. And regardless if he couldn't or could have killed Michael. Who is say that the Earth wouldn't get damage. Or even if his powers were much greater at this time, whom is to say that Castiel even KNEW how to kill Michael? You could the greatest, oldest, strongest, power in all of creation and if you don't know how to use, or at least completely. Than it might be harder to do feats that surpass, healing a blind man, killing a Revent at a church, etc.

Again, ALL THEROIES.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think this issue could be thought of as this: a child (Castiel with or without souls) is obviously weaker than a pro athlete (Michael or Raphael). But give a kid a gun and an athlete is powerless. Castiel had the specific power to accelerate molecules to the point of combustion. In the grand scheme of things, Castiel, given his statement, may not have had the power to just overpower Michael without that specific power. This means that Michael isn't finger snappingly stronger than Raphael. SilverRain (talk) 03:48, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I think I'll get involved in this discusion if no one minds, my point is, although I personally agree with ImperiexSeed and belive that Michael is that powerful, I find myself Leaning towards Calebchiam's idea, that we simply remove the sentance. I disagree with it, Michael is the strongest, even if Godstiel was stronger, which he wouldn't be or else he wouldn't fear Michael, it wouldn't count as the souls giving him his power, were Eve's creations not Gods. Also I have to ask why your so sceptical Michael is that strong? The guys practically omonipotant, one no occasion could Lucifer not do what he attempted, regardless of the task, and everyone agreed Michael could eat Lucifer for breakfast. I also question your statment, if it was pure power, Gabriel would have held his own for a while. Lucifer overpowered him, without even breaking a sweat, he was able to hold him in place with abasloutly no difficulty, and Gabriel is generally accepted as the weakest of the four. Also I find your argument that just because there both Archangels they should have similiar powers flawed, Both Famine and Death are horsemen, and there power levels are phernomally different, both Kali and Genesh are hindu gods, and there power levels aren't even close, being the same species doesn't mean your similiar in power. And I question why you think that Michael couldn't be so powerful, Gabriel was clearly terrified of Lucifer. But by and large, this is all to much effot and fan theories, so I'm sticking to Calebchiam's idea. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:43, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I am in favor with Calebchiam's suggestion to remove the statement entirely as well. 108.247.147.4222:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Just because you fear something, doesn't always make them stronger. Some people are afraid of mice, does that make mice stronger? No. I believe Castiel's supposed fear of Michael was just irrational, much like his irrational belief that he could take on Death himself. Also to bring up, Ruby feared Alistair more than she feared Lilith who was Hell's most powerful demon.

Everyone agreed that Michael would defeat Lucifer, not that he could eat him for breakfast. And as I said before, Lucifer only overpowered Gabriel through pure wit. He knew what Gabriel was up to and killed Gabriel with physical strength. He used absolutely no magic at all. On the other hand, Gabriel did and was able to toss Lucifer across the room. Not so weak now is he?

The Horsemen are physical manifestations of what they represent, of course their powers are going to be dramatically different. The Horsmen aren't a species like angels are, they are just a title of what they call themselves as a group. Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel and Raphael are all the same, just with different jobs/occupations and slightly different powers. You also can't compare Hindu Gods with angels. Hindu Gods don't have hierarchies like angels do. Both Castiel and Michael are angels yet their powers differ greatly. Same species but in different groups. All 4 Archangels are in the same group, the highest order of angel so they all should have very similar powers. Castiel and his garrison should have similar powers. They're all the same species but in different groups based on similarties they have when created. To have Michael be so radically different from the other 3 angels he's grouped into is in my opinion, stupid.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:09, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

It's a bit late but I would just like to leave this reminder that Raphael himself said 'If anyone is going to be the new God, it's me.' This hints that absorbing that much souls will elevate a being to the level of God, not just an archangel. Also note that Raphael's statement if anyone was completely neutral. Nevermind that one of the candidates was just a demon, and that he will only receive half of the souls (given Raphael will stand by the deal), it still gives them incredible amounts of power.

And seeing as Castiel is now canonically a seraph (most likely when God improved him post Swan Song), it isn't that much of a stretch that he could actually reach levels beyond the archangels. Sure, Death called him a mutated angel but that doesn't take away the fact that he was powerful and it took the collective efforts of the Leviathan inside him before he was overpowered.

Michael is without a doubt the most powerful angel or archangel. That doesn't mean other beings could elevate themselves above the four.

Just playing the advocate here, but I think L4D2 Elis's logic is more sound. Godstiel is unaffected by any of the common angelic weaknesses, whereas Michael is. Godstiel completely obliterated the third most powerful archangel in existence with just a snap of his fingers. Because Castiel is no longer an angel, regardless of which angel class he came from. Also, friendly reminder that Godstiel had all of heaven's weapons under his belt, in addition to the souls.

FTWinchester (talk) 13:27, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with what you've said. Not only that, Raphael is an Archangel already so he should be more powerful with the souls and his powers should exceed those of his brother Michael.

And thank you for agreeing with my logic. One of the few times people actually do. It makes no sense for people to think that no one can be above Michael other than his own father and Death. When Castiel became Godstiel, Death showed that there is an immense power difference between the Archangels and himself. It basically leaves a possibility that someone can be that much more powerful than Michael. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:01, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Dude, I'm not just going to agree with you. It's easy to assume Michael couldn't simply just snap his fingers, and kill Raphael. But, as his older brother, he is definitely stronger than him. In "The Song Remains the Same", he snapped his fingers and "yanked" Uriel from his vessel, and sent him back to Heaven. But , in "Free To Be You And Me", Castiel did say Michael's much stronger than Raphael. Anywho, I do think that Castiel, while wiedling all of Purgatory's souls was stronger than Michael, but that Michael possessed the potential to actually harm him. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:16 PM, November 2nd 2012

Surprised ImperiexSeed, I thought you always thought Lucifer and or at least Michael was stronger than Godstiel. But, while I do agree that Castiel was stronger than Michael interms of strength, it still doesn't mean that he could have killed Michael like he did to Rapheal, or that Michael couldn't have killed or harmed him. But as the series never stated otherwise it should be written unbias to where either or case is possible.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 17:30, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

What a fucking liar you are. You never once believed that Castiel on Purgatory souls was more powerful than Michael. Need I quote this,
"But I say, let's look at the fact. God and Death come first, obviously. And seeing as Castiel is scared of Michael after absorbing all of Purgatory's souls, he has to come next."
"Michael likely could not just, say, snap his fingers and kill Cas while he absorbed the souls, but I am say he'd ultimately win."
"Truth of the matter is, Michael is more powerful than Castiel after he absorbed all of Purgatory's souls."
Now you're saying that Michael can't kill Godstiel and is now weaker? Who are you trying to fool? You were fucking adament about your opinion to the point of idiocy. Seriously. Read through my entire debate against you. I never once said that Michael could snap his fingers and explode Raphael. It was you, General Mod and Auditore7 who did. I have always maintained that Michael is more powerful than Raphael just not to the point where you 3 believed.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:44, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

No need for foul language. I'm not lying, when I simply changed by perspective. Apparently, I'm so-called "arrogant", but yet you call me an idiot and resort to swearing to establish your point. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:21 PM, November 2nd 2012

Hard not to when I'm dealing with you. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:24, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

What a child. And what a vain and stubborn boy, but whatever. What's your problem with me, anyway? Let me tell you something, there was a petition a while ago whether or not I should be demoted, and you know what, the majority said I should remain an admin. So there. And you mentioned something about my profile banner, I say "I Am "the guy who's always right" as a joke. I'm really getting sick and tired of you. Continue using profanity, and I'll have you blocked. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:43 PM, November 2nd 2012

Like you are so much better. The ones who decided you should remain an admin, I have doubts on what they saw. You leave speculation up on pages and later lock them so they couldn't be edited when they should be. Especially God and Death's pages. Just because you think God could kill/harm Death, you decided to leave it up. It wasn't until other admin had to come in an intervene before you decided to leave it alone. And I am just as sick and tired of you when you leave speculation up and state your personal opinion as if it were fact. That's my problem with you. You basically abused your admin role because people had logical arguments against information on certain pages but you leave said pages locked because it didn't agree with your views. That's why I liked when Calebchiam intervened because he actually looks at both sides of the arguments and came to the conclusion that speculative information should be removed when neither side could win. If you were like that in the first place I wouldn't have as big as a problem with you.

L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:02, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I say this as someone who is willing to give a second chance, ImperiexSeed, please be more respectful to other users. The petition to desynop you may have been defeated, but that does not mean it will never be reopened if go too to far with your rudeness or what could be considered as a misuse of your admin rights again. I must remind you that an admin is not an authority, he/she is an equal to other users. 107.194.27.114 19:21, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I can't see how you think Death' stronger. God's above EVERYTHING as said in the Bible. And per "I Believe the Children are Our future", the Bible exists in the Supernatural universe, so that would in turn mean, God > Death. Plus, Death was incarcerated by the Host of Heaven, which may implicate that together, Death cane restrained. This seems to prove that God possesses authority over him. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:57 PM, November 2nd 2012'

I have never believed that Death is stronger, just that he can kill God. And really you're citing the Bible as your source? Remember Castiel saying that the Bible gets more wrong than it does right? The Leviathans were killed in the Bible, Purgatory is where souls go when sins are not bad enough for Hell. Really, citing the Bible? Look how much the show has changed from real lore and yet your citing the Bible? That just shows your desperate attempt to be right using the worst kind of argument. You are again showing your bias and believing you are right. Nobody knows why Death was chained 600 feet down. All Bobby said is that he was chained there and the last time they hauled him up was during the Great Flood. Just because the angels pulled him up doesn't mean they put him down. God is supposedly omniscient, yet according to Death neither remembers who is older. God is also supposedly omnipresent but no angel can find him. God is supposedly immortal yet his own son, Raphael, believes him to be dead which is later reinforced by Death's statement that he's able to reap God. You haven't a single evidence of proof other than your wild speculation that goes against what is shown on TV. Until stated otherwise I use speculation to fit what is in the show, not come up with reasons that show otherwise. Unless canon says otherwise, we should stick with what we know. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it true, neither does it make it right. It's speculation that also goes in the opposite direction. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:29, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I am full agreement with you, 4D2 Ellis, the Bible has absolutely no bearing in Supernatural, aside from what writers and producers decide to incorperate into the series. 107.194.27.114 21:38, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

::::::And what, you think Death can kill God with a tap? Cause that's utter bogus. At the time of that comment, Death didn't kill God but merely said that he's capable of doing so, which is total bulls***. He'll said in the end "I'll reap him too" yet after the Apocalypse (The End), God is alive and well. It's indicated it's 'The End' on Chuck's computer. Yes, I question the knowledge of Death. He's been mistaken on multiple occasion, deeming him untrustworthy. He inaccurately assumed that they bound him because of Sam's hallucinations which was incorrect. He says Leviathan don't have souls, yet the go to Purgatory after death. So obviously God bears more knowledge seeing as, apparently according to Death, the only thing he can't remember is his age (which I find completely inaccurate). -- ImperiexSeed, 4:48 PM, November 2nd 2012

He never specified what "The End" meant. Now you're just getting desperate. The Apocalypse is the end of the human race which is insignificant to Death. His end would be the absolute end.

Death has never said that Leviathans don't have souls. He said that long before God created angel and man the Leviathans were created. Nothing about souls. And how do you know that God bears more knowledge? He has never made an appearance, and don't say it was Chuck because there's no abosolute canon on that. There are conflicting information about that between Sera Gamble's interviews and later ones. And the only reason you find Death being unable to remember their ages as inaccurate is because of your bias. There is no supporting evidence to prove otherwise. It's funny how you deem Death's words untrustworthy yet freely use the Bible as your source for your argument. Again your bias is showing and you're throwing a tantrum because I'm not seeing it your way due to your poor arguments. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:03, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

You apparently missed a piece of that quote. what he said was, "There are things much older than souls in Purgatory, and you gulped those in too", noting the Leviathan. And quite personally, I saw Sera Gamble as a terrible writer, and Eric Kripke said that in the Season Five finale, God would appear in some way, and also, in a Youtube video, Rob Benidict got interviewed about playing God. Um, I'm not the one who said, "And thank you for agreeing with my logic. One of the few times people actually do. It makes no sense for people to think that no one can be above Michael other than his own father and Death. When Castiel became Godstiel, Death showed that there is an immense power difference between the Archangels and himself. It basically leaves a possibility that someone can be that much more powerful than Michael." So quite clearly, you yearn for people agreeing with your bologna. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:41 PM, November 2nd 2012

L4D2 Ellis makes a valid point, Death indeed never specified what "The End" meant. As far as we know he could have been referring to the end of literally everything in existence, besically the universe and anything beyond. 107.194.27.114 22:10, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Just because Leviathans are older than souls doesn't mean that they can't go to Purgatory when they die. Death never said that they don't go anywhere when they die.

And so what if you think Sera Gamble is a terrible writer, she was still a writer on the show and was there for years. She may have been terrible but she was able to replace Eric Kripke as the show runner for the show.

And my so called "bologna" is more logically thought out than yours. How do you like them apples? I already have 2 people agreeing with me one being an admin himself and I agreed with his decision to leave speculation off of the official pages. You on the other hand act like a vain child, which you accused me of, by locking a page because you didn't like the edit wars. Abuse of power as an admin because it didn't agree with your views. Who's the actual childish one? You're not any better ImperiexSeed L4D2 Ellis (talk) 23:01, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Using my own words against me? How credible. No, he didn't say where they go, but as being without a soul, how they go anywhere upon death? Like the Angel situation, when the die, they simply vanish from existence. Ok, so you may have more supporters than myself, as you would say, "that doesn't make you any better than I". You persistently tell me I'm no better but yet you keep trying to prove that you are. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:56 PM, November 2nd 2012

Like you didn't use my quotes against me. And the Leviathans must have something for them to end up in Purgatory when they die. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:08, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Logic is entirely opinion based upon mere education, pure logic can not be argued with or disproven. Alertfiend (talk) 01:31, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Here's my take. Michael was said to be FAR more powerful than Raphael. Not MUCH more. *FAR MORE*. The whole premise of season 5 is for heaven to kill Lucifer AT ALL COSTS. If Raphael mattered in any way to help kill Lucifer, he would have helped Michael by double-teaming Lucifer. But since that's not the case then it stands to reason that Raphael is so weak that he contributes nothing in helping Michael taking down Lucifer except for helping him to get Dean to say yes. That's all Raphael can do to help with Michael. This leads me to believe that Michael can finger-snap Raphael to oblivion. I think Michael, Lucifer and Mutated Cas are in the same tier of power. John432 (talk) 21:14, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

It was also said that it was destined for Michael and Lucifer to fight. If they needed to kill Lucifer at all costs, the angels should've bound Death and had him kill Lucifer. No fight, just a simple touch and Lucifer would be dead in less than a second. It makes absolutely no sense for Archangels being in the same category would have a power scale that different. For all we know, the angels were just exaggerating Michael's powers. He is after all the most powerful of the angels. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:29, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

I beg to disagree, John432. Just because Raphael isn't taking part in the frontline doesn't mean he can't. Raphael is a fundamentalist. He isn't helping in the actual battle with Lucifer because it was not his role in the scripture. I'm pretty sure he could hold his own against Lucifer, albeit eventually ending up losing.

If a seraph with just 50,000 souls can stand up to an archangel, is it really that hard to imagine a seraph with millions of souls and all of heaven's weapons overpowering any archangel? Lot's salt alone decimated Raphael's vessel such that the archangel could not just resurrect him, but instead have to find a new one. That is just one heavenly weapon under Godstiel's belt. Michael is still susceptible to common angelic weaknesses, whereas Godstiel wasn't. FTWinchester (talk) 21:53, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

It was destined for Michael and Lucifer to fight because they are the two most strongest angels of them all. No one on Heaven's side can hang with them. Zachariah mentioned that only Michael can take Lucifer on. Raphael didn't want to get involved because he is no where near as powerful as the top two archangels. He is useless to Michael on the frontlines and he knows it. If he were anywhere near the ballpark in Michael and Lucifer's power level tier, he would have joined in the fight. Look how Michael reacted to the holy oil molotov, it merely banished him for five minutes. And look how Lucifer reacted to the Colt. He's immune to it and that was in his temporary vessel Nick. Lucifer also crushed all the pagan gods singlehandedly and over-rided their powers and spells. Gabriel is shown to be about as powerful as one of the top Pagan Gods. Not all of them combined. Both Raphael and Gabriel were contained by the holy oil fire circle because they knew they'd instantly die if they touched it. And I doubt they are immune to the Colt. There is a huge wide gap between the two oldest archangels, Michael and Lucifer, and the two youngest archangels, Raphael and Gabriel.John432 (talk) 01:19, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Being the two most powerful angels and it was only them who were supposed to fight. If Heaven really wanted Lucifer dead "at all costs" as you say, they would've bound Death before Lucifer did so there wouldn't have been an earth shattering battle. Or since Lucifer wanted to win so badly, he should've had Death kill Michael. No one joined in the fight because they weren't supposed to. Angels are a stickler for Destiny and all that.

Lucifer didn't kill the Pagan Gods all at once. He still had to kill them one by one. Not as powerful as you're implying. And Gabriel managed to telekinetically push Lucifer into another room. Kali had no effect on Lucifer and she seemed to be the most powerful of the Pagon Gods. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 01:57, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Five minutes banished or shorter, the fact remains he is not immune to BASIC angelic weaknesses, whereas Godstiel was. That alone speaks volumes. Godstiel has transcended the limitations of any angel. And Rapahel not joining the battle because he wasn't supposed to has water in it, look at L4D2's logic. They could easily use death to pawn each other if they really needed each other dead. We have canon proof that they could--Heaven released Death during Noah's time, and Lucifer also bound Death to his will. So if the angels desperately needed Lucifer dead, why just rely with Michael?

Where was it shown that Gabriel was only as powerful as the top pagan gods? He never even tried fighting them. What we actually have is Gabriel showing the potential to stand his ground against Lucifer (something not even the most powerful pagan god came close to), albeit losing immediately only because it was Lucifer who taught Gabriel everything about his tricks/tactics.

So, anybody thinking the power gap between Lucifer and Raphael/Gabriel is so huge, please tell me why Lucifer had to use Gabriel's archangel blade against him instead of just snapping his fingers to obliterate his younger brother?

Immunity to the colt isn't comparable here, as we did not even have an instance when it was used on Godstiel, and you can't say for sure that Raphael and Gabriel could be killed by it. For all we know, the five things in creation could be according to species, and not as an individual.

And if we're really going to talk about vessels here, Nick started decaying for months, and Sam, being the proper vessel, will not deteriorate when holding Lucifer. How about Jimmy Novak being Castiel's proper vessel and degrading in just a matter of hours? FTWinchester (talk) 02:19, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Your logic is very faulty.

Mutated Cas, Not 'Godstiel'. He had Leviathans in him, that's why he is immune to angel weaknesses. I already mentioned why they didn't use Death. Look at what Cas said: "We need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage." This means he is in the same tier as Michael and Lucifer. Maybe at best slightly stronger.

When Dean threatened Gabriel with exposing him to the pagans. Gabriel threatened Dean back with maiming him in some ways. This indicates he cannot take on the entire 'god squad' the way lucifer did. Also Kali affected Gabriel with a blood spell.

And didn't you watch the scene with Lucifer and Gabriel??? Lucifer clearly didn't want to kill Gabriel at all he pleaded with him, even begged him not to go through with what he was doing. To which Gabriel replied: "No one makes us do anything." Like you said Lucifer knew all his tricks and practically saw it coming a mile away. It was too predicatable to him. Lucifer's own words: "amateur hocus pocus, don't forget little brother, you learned all your tricks from me." To which for the first and only time we have actually seen Lucifer cry over his death. Mourning.

Here is exactly what Lucifer said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *I* happen to be one of them." Which exactly, clearly means Lucifer fills an entire slot. If he meant species, then he would of said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *ARCHANGELS* happen to be one of them. He didn't say that did he? No, he didn't. We take his statement literally at face value unless there is any hint of contrary evidence otherwise. And there was none. So Lucifer fills an entire slot. Case closed. God, Death, and Michael are on the list because all three are more powerful than he is.

I have no idea what you're saying about Jimmy Novak.John432 (talk) 03:00, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Mutated Cas, Not 'Godstiel'. He had Leviathans in him, that's why he is immune to angel weaknesses.

I almost stopped reading right there. If we are to separate Castiel from everything he has absorbed from Purgatory and the weapons vault of heaven, then there really is no point for this debate, isn't there? And Godstiel/Mutated Cas really is just choice of words.

"We need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage."

So the apocalypse doesn't restart--exactly Castiel's point why he waged a civil war. Why bother killing them when they are safely incapacitated by the cage?

When Dean threatened Gabriel with exposing him to the pagans. Gabriel threatened Dean back with maiming him in some ways. This indicates he cannot take on the entire 'god squad' the way lucifer did.

Gabriel had plans on talking the gods out of it, or at the very least, saving Kali BUT under the guise of a pagan god. He doesn't want to botch up the already dangerous scenario, which would be a definite yes if the gods knew who Gabriel really was.

Also Kali affected Gabriel with a blood spell.

And this would indicate Lucifer could not be bound as well, how?

And didn't you watch the scene with Lucifer and Gabriel??? Lucifer clearly didn't want to kill Gabriel at all he pleaded with him, even begged him not to go through with what he was doing.

Yes, but that's not exactly the point here. We are talking about Lucifer's method of attack, regardless of his disposition in killing his little brother.

Here is exactly what Lucifer said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *I* happen to be one of them."

Given that, why did you suggest earlier Raphael and Gabriel aren't part of that list?

We take his statement literally at face value unless there is any hint of contrary evidence otherwise.

You think there is no contrary evidence? Leviathans (plural form, by the way, if we stick to individual counts), Eve, the horsemen, etc.

I have no idea what you're saying about Jimmy Novak.

Jimmy Novak deteriorating in a matter of hours after Castiel absorbed all the souls from Purgatory.

FTWinchester (talk) 03:20, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Why not step in to the cage and Kill both Michael and Lucifer to permanently end the threat of the apocalyplse once and for all? You do know that Michael and Raphael are on the same side, right? Cas went through thick and thin to desperately find a way to stop Raph, which he did. He went through all that trouble to kill Raphael. Why would he show any bit of mercy for Michael and Lucifer if he was beyond them? For all the sacrifices and troubles he has went through, and for all the risks he has taken to stop the apocalypse.

Lucifer butchered the pagans mercilessly. effortlessly like they were nothing to him. He prevented them from teleporting. Seeing what he has done to them, that blood spell would have no effect on him. If it were that easy, they were more than capable of hexing him or using any spell in their arsenal against him in preparation. They are Gods after all. If it were that easy, they would never have held a meeting in the first place in the Eulaysian hotel. The sole purpose of that meeting was to figure out some desperate way to stop Michael and Lucifer - which was capturing the Winchesters, the true vessels. Their supposed ace-in-the-hole in that meeting was getting the archangel's blade from Gabriel. The pagans thought they lucked out. Turns out that blade was made from a soda can. The episode "hammer of the gods" major premise was that the pagans didn't possess the power to stop Michael and Lucifer. They had to come up with a plan to figure out the top archangel's weaknesses. Since clearly the pagan's powers have no effect on Michael and Lucifer. As Lucifer in Gabe's words "turn them into fingerpaint."

The five things still stand because the other three horsemen can die. So can Eve. So can Leviathans. Lucifer didn't flat out lie. His statement was literal and exact. Only God, Death, and Michael are stronger than him. They are the only ones who can kill him. And that's why they are on that list. The fifth thing on that list I think is very highly likely Metatron. Since he is not only an archangel, but is also primordial as well. Since according to Cas: "He wrote down dictation when Creation was being formed." Creation simply means all of what God has created. Since God created the entire Supernatural universe, this means Creation means universe. Metatron is older than the Leviathans. Because not even they can read the tablets.

So the list is:

God

Death

Michael

Lucifer

Metatron

Castiel detriorating in his true vessel ,Jimmy, because of all the Leviathans in him that are powering their way up out "under the weight of all those souls" using Death's words. The Leviathans are by definition, magical cyanide to an angel. Without those 30-40 million souls, Cas instantly died within a minute. With those souls he held out for over a week until he was burning up because of the leviathans. What are you trying to prove here? Nothing.John432 (talk) 04:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Did you just eliminate my posts? You do know that you're not allowed to do that right?

Creation does not mean the universe. God isn't part of creation, he created it in the first place. Death is not a part of creation as he existed alongside God. It's unlikely that Metatron is older than the Leviathans as Death said, "Long before God created angel and man, he made the first beasts. The Leviathans."

L4D2 Ellis (talk) 04:25, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

No, I didn't erase your posts. Why would I? How do you do that? If I did, it was probably a mistake.

Creation does mean universe because God "created" the universe. Whatever God created is part of Creation. Just because God and Death pre-date Creation, it doesn't mean they are not part of it. They choose to be in it, so obviously, they are a part of it. Cas said: "He took down dictation when Creation was being formed." So this means Metatron has been with God since the beginning of Creation. Which makes him older than the Leviathans.

There has been a clear delineation between Archangels and angels. The four, who I now think are five including Metatron, archangels have seen God's true visage. Only other being that saw God's true form was Death. And he's around as old as God. Being close to God at that level strongly indicates age.John432 (talk) 04:49, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

John, your argument on Lucifer vs. the pagans is really taking things off tangent here, I'm not even sure anymore if you are pointing out Lucifer vs. the pagans, or the pagans vs. Gabriel anymore. I will agree with you that Lucifer is superior to all the pagans but I can't see how it directly supports the theory that Lucifer and Michael are comparably stronger than Godstiel. L4D2 and I were just pointing out the youngest archangel showed potential to fight Lucifer, and therefore that the gaps among the four archangels aren't sky-high, and a lot of unrelated arguments sprang from it. And friendly reminder that a pagan betrayed the group to Lucifer, allowing him to easily break through whatever defenses they may have placed earlier, if there were any.

Eve and the leviathans did and could die. But did they die by the colt? Come on, man. You are changing topics here. A lot of your arguments are red herring. I am trying so hard to restrain myself right now. I wasn't the one who dragged the 'vessel' argument here, I just rode your wave. And then you say you don't see the point. Let me explain to you--the entity I call Godstiel was so powerful it deteriorated even Castiel's proper vessel in just a matter of hours, as opposed to Lucifer causing Nick to deteriorate over the course of several months, and not at all if Lucifer is in his proper vessel. So if you don't understand my point on this 'vessel' argument, then let's just drop the case; nevermind that the argument was trumped in favor of Godstiel.

Again, you continue to separate Castiel from what powered him up to be Godstiel, whether the souls, the weapons or the leviathans. You are simply taking Castiel as he is, and then pitting him against Michael and/or Lucifer. I see no more point arguing--the archangels win. But we were talking about the holistic entity comprised of the seraph, all of heaven's weapons, the millions of souls and the leviathans, NOT JUST CASTIEL. FTWinchester (talk) 04:58, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

I do understand. Godstiel, as you would like to call him, was burning up rapidly alot faster than Lucifer in Nick's body not because he was a boatload more powerful than Michael and Lucifer. It's because the Leviathans in him are rapidly accelerating through the millions of souls in his vessel.. The Leviathans were causing Cas to burn up. Not the souls. So you bringing this up proves nothing. It doesn't mean Godstiel is so much far more powerful than Michael and Lucifer. It means the leviathans are causing Cas to explode. They are literally magical poison. They did not provide any power to Cas. They are added living toxic buildup underneath those souls. This is so self-evident in the season 7 premiere.

You do know that the Leviathans are essentially magical kryptonite to angels, do you? They're magical living cyanide.

And possessing only all of heaven's weapons wasn't enough to kill or permanently stop Raphael. If so, then why would he need the souls? If he can't stop Raphael with them, he won't stop Michael and Lucifer.

I never said Michael and Lucifer are far more powerful than Godstiel. I said they are in the same tier. With the possibility that Godstiel is only slightly stronger than them that it doesn't make any big difference at all between the three.John432 (talk) 05:18, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well, then. I did not originally want to use the leviathans as included in the powers of Godstiel, but you were keen on indicating that they were the ones who provided Castiel with immunity to angelic weakness. Anyway, Castiel did threaten Raphael in The French Mistake to flee if the archangel did not want to die right then and there--which supports the point that he already could (but perhaps with some difficulty). I was just pointing out that Castiel did not only have the millions of souls, but he also had those weapons which undoubtedly could harm even archangels.

Personally I sitll believe Godstiel was more powerful than Michael or Lucifer, and that the power difference between the two are not so far from Raphael and Gabriel (meaning Michael can not just snap his fingers to cause Raphael to explode). I initially only added a response to the latter statement (power difference among the four archangels), this mole-hole argument seems to have become a mountain. And seeing as we really have no canon basis on whether the powers of the four are vastly or just slightly different, we may never be able to settle this. I do understand I also had a hand in prolonging this debate, so, sorry about that. FTWinchester (talk) 13:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

If I may interject, but John432 is technically incorrect in his statement, "Creation does mean the universe because God "created" the universe," as based on my research Creation actually refers to the creation of Earth in real world terminology, rather than the universe. In addition, while he may be correct from one point of view, I must point out that when Lucifer's actual words "in all of creation" are taken into account, it can also be interpreted as meaning the universe and everything that has ever been created within it, which at least this wiki seems to be generally accepting it as. 108.225.237.95 09:50, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't have time to read all of these remarks, just the first ten-or-so. But what I have to say is. The fact that Castiel holds the position of "Seraph." God created his "perfect" creations which were the Archangels. I wouldn't say that there's a "8,000" mile gap ( I know that this was just randomly thrown in there." But honestly, I think that Michael was far stronger than Castiel. As much as I love Castiel, I figure that him being an original angel, and then dying and becoming a Seraph, means something. But I think this is the hierarchy:

1. God

2. Death

3. (Four Horsemen) 

4. Leviathans

6. Eve 

7. Archangels (Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel, Raphael) 

8. Lilith

9. Demons 

10. Alphas

11. Monsters

12. Everything else

Sorry, for that long message. But since Death is unable to die, I claim him almost as powerful as God, but not as strong. The Four Horsemen also can't die (Although debatable, I don't remember much about them.) The Leviathans were the first creatures, and the older you are the better. And since Eve was before Angels & Demons, she's stronger than the Archangels, and she even says "I'm older Castiel. I know what makes you tick. As long as I'm around, you don't have power." (Johnnn116 (talk) 21:53, March 15, 2013 (UTC)) 

Ah, I like how you put the three remaining Horsemen in parentheses, as I always do. But, would you really class them as above the Archangels? I mean, they seemed to be under Lucifer's control, except for Death, who needed to be literally bound. And WHY ARE THE LEVIATHANS RANKER HIGHER THAN ARCHANGELS? And, Eve? Really.... Yes, she said she's older than Castiel, an Angel. But that doesn't immediately mean she's older the collective term 'Angel.' Now, Death's quote of 'Angel' refers to it species wise. So, Archangels are younger than Leviathans, by who knows how long. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:30 PM, March 15th 2013

John, the 8,000 mile gap I mentioned is what Imperiex believed to be the power gap between Michael/Lucifer and the other two Archangels: Raphael and Gabriel. I've seen other people believe that Michael was powerful enough to snap his fingers and easily kill Raphael/Gabriel like Castiel did when he was utilizing the souls of Purgatory. Michael is far stronger than normal Castiel I will give you that. That is definitely not debatable.

Eve may or may not be stronger than the Archangels, but I have doubts on that. Castiel was already a Seraph by that time so she could easily be between Seraphs and Archangels.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:33, March 16, 2013 (UTC)

Destroying the Earth?

It's stated on this page that Michael and Lucifer will use their white light blasts to destroy the planet (and cities) in their battle but when is that ever stated in the show? It's mentioned that the battle will destroy the earth but isn't that in reference to the battle between Heaven and Hell with Michael and Lucifer as the leaders? I mean Zachariah says "Michael is going to take his vessel and lead the final charge against the adversary". Implying he will lead the army of Heaven against Lucifer and his forces. Also he says "the war has started, we don'y have our general" and when our side wins and we will" which implies the same thing. I mean if Lucifer could destroy the planet with his white light, why would he bother with the croatoan virus crap in the first place? Plus Meg's coment of "we're going to Heaven" implies that Heaven and Hell will battle, not just Michael and Lucifer. 

The others would probably join in at some point, but no its prodomentarilly a battle between Michael and Lucifer. They met to start the fight, the fight would be so intense it would destroy large portions of the earth. Lucifer isn't strong enough to destroy the whole earth, neither of them are, they've strong enough to smash it back and forth to kingdom come though. Why Lucifer would use teh Croatoan rather than personally killing everyone, is the same reason we use poison to kill verimin than simply crushing all of them, its easier.General MGD 109 (talk) 22:04, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Its not if you can simply raise your hand and kill them all in a blast of white light. 

Photo: What's with all the constant replacement of the photos?

What's with all the constant replacement of the photos? FTWinchester (talk) 09:46, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

All I'm doing here is reverting it back to Image:Viceroy Michael.jpg. It's tall and clear, but evidently (some) people want to have both vessels shown in the template. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:49 PM, December 29th 2013

Well I hope consensus is reached on which one(s) to use. FTWinchester (talk) 23:40, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

The Battle

I have to wonder..If Lucifer knew that his battle with Michael would dead immense damage to the earth and therefore the people on it, what was the point in Lucifer controlling the horsemen? why bring war, famine, pestilence and catastrophe of death to do damage when not long in, his battle would level the planet, causing huge destruction? surely it was nit a fail safe in the hopes he did not need to fight Michael, it may be that as death described him 'some bratty child throwing a tantrum'.

And if Michael is more powerful than Lucifer, after taking his vessal, could he have took control of the horsemen? knowing that his destined battle with Lucifer would do more damage than the horsemen? if the battle would do so much catastrophe, why would the croatoan virus be required? why have death destroy one city? If Michael knew Lucifer planned to use the horsemen, wgy diddn't he use johns earlier in time vessal to take command beforehand? maybe he thought it had to play out as planned, despite his 'destiny' being very wrong.

I just don't get why Lucifer would bother having death destroy things when he was going to do so on a supposed higher scale later anyway, ehy would the mighty archangel require aid? was it that his powers were limited and he required the horsemen's vastly greater power and perhaps the battle would not have dealt THAT much damage. The End showed a croatoan future but that was only because Dean said no and the battle never even occured..how Michael and Raphael think destroying God's grandest creation and most of his Humans would bring paradise I don't know.

Princepurple (talk) 03:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Even though you'll probably not like this answers, but I'd take it he used the Horsemen for two reasons. One, because the writers knew we, the fans, would really like to see the Horsemen appear in some way in the story. But also to stretch the story out throughout season five, because, I mean, the story wouldn't have been able to survive if Lucifer did absolutely everything himself. When Michael snagged Adam as his vessel on Earth, he couldn't use the Horsemen because they were bound to Lucifer, and might've needed to use a spell himself to undo it or something. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:51 PM, February 19th 2014

Lucifer did not have his true proper vessel for most of the season so he needed help from the horsemen while waiting for Sam to give his consent. Also do not forget Death was more powerful than Lucifer. FTWinchester (talk) 09:53, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I think unbound, all the horsemen are stronger than the archangels, leviathans, or eve, but death is even higher, hell, pestilence was wanting to directly go against Lucifer orders without any fear at all, as if he was just working for the archangel because he actually liked the role, not perticularly because he was actually his weapon. I think unbound, although he likely would not bother to do so, Death could have directly destroyed both Michael and lucifer like fleas, the damage they were going to inflict on the earth is nothing to what death could produce, but he was only using them so low key because lucifer was forcing him to, but although I think Death respects the Earth as one of God's works, If he wanted to, he could likely destroy the earth with a gesture and likely all the archangels and host of heaven at once, sure God could bring them back, which represents life and death to me.

But still, surley with his great forsight and knowing the winchesters were going to use the rings, he would he possibly forseen the horsemen's defeat anyway and may have known they 1. had no true regard for him, and 2. death would want to help the winchesters.

I have to wonder..did Lucifer simply bind the horsemen to cause some unrequired damage simply out of spite to God? he already screwed with Gods humans, I'm sure, just wanting attention and just to mess around with the natural order a little more, just to put another 'screw you dad' out there? He knew and Michael knew that he would only have control of the horsemen for a limited time anyway, so he was doing what he could while had had them.

Michael however, although highly arrogant and ultimately wrong, seemed far more responsible and composed than his unstable younger brother and likely knew that spiyefully and childlishly unleashing the horsemen would never last long.

Princepurple (talk) 19:28, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Lucifer isn't omniscient, so while he may have had a hunch, he must have known at least two (War and Pestilence) wanted the job, and one (Famine) needed the job and/or it's benefits. And in Death's words, Lucifer was throwing a 'tantrum', so yeah. You said it yourself--Lucifer hated humans and he wanted them to suffer as much as possible. Besides, while he can do it himself, I don't think he would be able to do so without constantly watching his back for Michael and the God squad, who were all far more powerful than his remaining demons (another reason he needed horsemen, who were capable of influencing angels or at least their vessels--Famine, and directly killing them--Death). FTWinchester (talk) 22:15, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

That does make sense, although according to Uriel Lucifer did have followers, unless they were found and killed, I'm not sure, that perticular detail faded rather fast after Uriels demise, but he knew he was once respected by angels, but of course, with his A-listers gone, i'm guessing he had every reason to believe the knights were dead, and Cain seemed capeable of not being found, i doubt lucifer would ignore one of his first, personally turned and one of most powerful 'pets' even if he would kill him afterwards, so Lucifer being alone against Michael and heaven would be reason to need backup, even if he knew he was playing with volitile forces beyond his own power.

I certainly think, if still complete, he would have unleased the sins tofurther torment humans, they seem to have been made for such, odd thing is, why did he not summon Samhain? sure he did not seem top rank, but his ability to summon many kinds of creatures would have fit in nicely, i mean he was using the demons as at least servants until they used their up their usefullness, perhaps Lucifer was planning on releasing Samhain, but may have required his true vessal and after the horsemen were removed, he diddn't see much point.

Princepurple (talk) 07:46, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Although I think he could bypass the rituals to raise Samhain, the rituals were probably there for a reason and he did not want to bother with all that mess. Plus, if he has been defeated before, he may have thought it's better to use new weapons his enemies haven't encountered yet for the element of surprise and mystery. But, hey, these are just like my opinions, man. FTWinchester (talk) 12:07, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

The survival of most literature depends on some kind triumph over the oppressing force, so if Lucifer did everything himself or enrolled Samhain (someone who can essentially raise everything Dean and Sam faced at the time), this series wouldn't end pretty. Plus, many fans would've been bumming if we didn't get to see any of the Horsemen during the apocalypse in season five, and understandably so. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:55 PM, February 20th 2014

Above Destiny?

Could it be safe to assume that with Atropos's comment having two sisters, more powerful in every sense of the word, certainly implies that with her being above a seraph that at least one of the others (clotho or Lachies) is Above the Archangels? Michael seemed to think he knew his own destiny and regardless of how things played out dean would say yes and he would battle Lucifer, he seemed very sure and seemed to think himself able to control destiny and that free will was just an illusion, the Winchesters attempts to avert the apocalypse would not succeed, however, it is clear that his destiny had other ideas, and since the fates are personifications of destiny each at higher leves of function, Atropos being the weakest yet still above seraphs, seems to imply that the highest sister is the higest function of destiny? the destiny of the winchesters and archangels? I'm calling it to be Lachies, and I would attribute her as pretty much like Gods personal secretary.

Princepurple (talk) 12:42, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Atropos could be killed, so I'd wager the other three could potentially be killed as well (heaven did have a weapon against the fates, after all). I think it could go both ways. Yes, the other fates must have known somehow that destiny is not set in stone, but I think if confronted directly with an archangel, they could still be overpowered. FTWinchester (talk) 19:14, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry by I have to disagree Princepurple, I don't see why you think Atropos is above a Seraph in either rank or power. She admitted Castiel could kill her, and never threatened to kill him (despite him also should be on her list as he's defied destiny several times by being resurected). Sure she scared a regular angel, but Castiel was clearly not afraid of her. Besides if her sisters were that powerful wouldn't they tried to kill him in response? Her threat was that Cas might not be able to keep Sam and Dean safe, cause he was to busy fighting the civil war.

Now in this show it seems destiny isn't exactly set in stone, even the natural order can be defied or cheated, its just doing so always has consequeces. Basically it seems free will overides destiny, but only when its actively trying to.

Also do we know the fates are the pursonfications of destiny? I know they are in the greek myths, but this show follows all myths, and all of them quite loosely. Now for them to be both on heaven's team and the Greek's I can only see two possibilities. Either someone offered them the job after the Greeks began to fall out favour and they just switched alliances, or they orginally worked for heaven and some where allong the lines they got affiliated with the greeks. General MGD 109 (talk) 02:05, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

I route this to three possible conclusions. Either the fates are omniscient (which there's no basis for) or follow an omniscient being, who is God, or there's no such thing as fate. If anything can hold omniscience, then free will would be, in a sense, an illusion. I do think that angels and other supernatural beings widdle certain outcomes regarding humanity while humans can fiddle themselves out of it. For some reason, I think God chiseled out a draft of a plan (chosen vessels, the apocalypse, and maybe even the shaping of the Devil) that he seemingly just gave up on. So not that this is unavoidable, but that the angelic body of heaven sought out to structure such a plan that they believed humans could never undo. I hope this makes sense. Here's something to work your mind: do the fates have fate? -- ImperiexSeed, 10:32 PM, February 28th 2014

That's like asking if death can die, I would say no, God in my mind in not the absolute in all things, the world does not work via dicator all powerfuls, it's by the many, this is why I think the writers chose to bring in death as a promordial being on par with God, otherwise, if he was just a horseman and Azreal was the angel of death and God held deaths function on that level of influence, then sure, God is on top of all, but the fact that a second being was brought in and Azreal was seemingly purposely written out to avoid confusion shows that the possibility of more than just two existing other than God and Death, there just the only two revealed so far, sure God may be the more generally more powerful, but neither of them can recall the others age.

The fact that heaven held weapons that can at least harm the fates is not really relevant as Archangel blades can seemingly kill Archangels, and I'm sure heavens weaponry would have other means of killing them, perhaps the weapon Castiel had could kill one of the fates, but I doubt it could truely, lets not forget, Castiel has been wrong many times about what he thinks can kill things, such as him thinking he could smite Alastair and thinking the colt may work on Lucifer, so we don't know if that knife really could kill the younger fate, and if an angel can't, I somehow doubt a seraph can.

On that note, as of yet, I do not recall the Seraph Castiel being able to smite lower angels, yet Cain, could smite lower demons, showing that perhaps the power gap between angels and seraphs is not as great as the gap between lower and higher demons, and we know that higher demons can easily beat lower angels, despite angels being older and believing otherwise, so I don't think Seraphs are that much stronger, as in their power at that level might not be as apparent, so many seraph powers may not work on angels just because they worked on humans, lets remember, cain smited an army of demons, castiel was temporarily overpowered by a single demons telekinasis after leaving purgatory and castiel or zach have never displayed the power to smite any lower angel, requiring angel blades, neither have they shown the ability to prevent angels teleporting away or silencing them, sure these may be traits unique to cain but unproven give almost every higher demons has displayed unique powers.

now where was I? ah yes, there is every basis to believe that at least one of the fates is primordial level, likely below death but still far, far above Michael, I think the gap between death and Michael is a million times or more the gap between Michael and a human, so I think others would fill that gap and show that God is not as on top of things as the abrahamic faiths like to think, like all the primordials came from something like chaos, an unstructured, unthinking void, and God within the shows lore is created as the overall balancer of the primordials, with God and death being the only ones involved in the events, God for obvious reasons and Death pretty much because of the apocalypse, if it would not of happened we likely would never have seen him and people would believe that God is the only primordial.

Princepurple (talk) 22:51, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

You make several intersting and fasinating points. But I think your over looking the fact that Atropos herself admited that they could kill her. Also I have to ask, if she was so powerful, why not kill Castiel? He's cheated fate several time now, rather than blackmailing him, why not simply just kill him and get back to work? I suppose she could just be making her job easier, but it still makes me wonder.

On to your other points, I don't know. I have a feeling Death, probably can die. I think thats going to be his last job, when he's turned off all the lights, put all the chairs on the desks, he's going to commit suicide and he's going to be the last death.

Seems unlikely to me, one of Heaven's nuke's was only powerful enough to banish Raphael, and he's only thrid most powerful. There of course could be more powerful weapons, but I think the archangel blades might have been the pinicle of power in the angel's armory. And as far as we know there are only two, Raphael's and Gabriel's, neither Micheal or Lucifer carried one, presumably because tehy were powerful enough to kill other archangels without it. As I already said, she her self admitted it would work, its possible she could be wrong, but don't you think she would know her own fate?

He doesn't seem able, thats true, but it appears Zachariah could, as Joshua admited he could "fire him" if he wanted, which was exactly the same way Zachariah refered to Michael going to oblitarate him. Zachariah being the powerful seraph (as he was naturally one, not made one later) it doesn't seem that unreasonable. I don't know, Castiel can now casually take down other angels and even fight leviathans, which causally murdered regular angels. I would say the gap is pretty big. Also he wasn't overpowered by a demons telekinesis, that was Dean. What happened was he was so weak that killing the demon near exhausted him but at the time he was only on about 10% power.

Interesting theory, but we only know for a fact there are two Pirmordials and then we have the other three horsemen. Further more, I'm not sure if we can argue Atropos or hers sisters counted, they seemed closer to Pagans who had just decided to work for heaven, how long they had been doing there job wasn't exactly made clear, sure it was a long time, but its not clear how old they exactly were.

So basically, I have to disagree, Michael did what he did and believed it was his destiny, only because his father specifically told him to, I doubt if he changed his mind or got disolutioned in any way, that any of the fates would do anything. They do admit to be supservial to Heaven after God left, and at that point Michael was running heaven. And honestly I can't see them knelling before a weaker being. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:30, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, there may be other primordials besides God and Death that we haven't seen yet, and one of Atropos' big sises might be primordial. But only God and Death have been shown to meet the standard to even be one. Think, though, if we keep throwing beings who 'just popped into existence' on the table, like could be the case with God and Death, we're left in a very awkward position. - Person: "Where did they come from (pointing to someone)?" - Respondent: "Oh, they just popped into existence." - Person: "And.... them?" - Respondent: "Them, too." Just existing or coming into existence on one's own should only be reserved for special cases, not every time when you can't think of a better answer where they came from. If this series' God is not the Judeo/Abrahamic God, then Death could kill him and he could be hurt just like any "god." Which can't be the case because we already know that supernatural's God is based on that. Good point, Castiel could've just taken the word of a superior or rumor that it can. However, Castiel might've not actually genuinely thought the Colt would work but out of fierce desperation, thought Dean should at least try. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:30 PM, March 4th 2014

I'm only staying here on the matter of the blade actually being able to kill Atropos, and like General already mentioned, Atropos herself admitted they could kill her. And the point that she had to resort to blackmail also shows that she may not be able to kill Castiel, or if she was reserving herself, may still have some serious difficulty going against a seraph. Again, I do not close off the possibility that the fates may be more prescient than Michael, but when it comes to raw power, it is somewhat the territory of the unknown, along the levels of leviathan vs. archangels. FTWinchester (talk) 00:26, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

No, what I'm getting at with the fates is that they are not necasarily bowing to Michael, or God for that matter, just because he is more powerful does not mean there going to follow orders because there told too, alot of weaker beings ignore or disobey higher, I think the fates were working with the natural order alongside God becauseit was a mutual deal, it worked, they did not bow to Micaels authority, just did there job in tandem.

For what reason would Atrops kill an angel? she seems the lowest of the fates, dealing with the fate of lower beings, not celestials, I doubt it was her place to bother getting angry with Castiels resurections as either, she knew it was due to God therfore it had a good reason, or because such things are in the scope of a higher sister who knew that celestial level alterations are moot  because she already pre planned it, like a higher version of metatron, so sure, the seraph could kill her, but he would need the weapon to do so and I'm sure God would bring her back as unlike his Archangels, she is a vital function.

There is a greek philosophy I would like to use for the sisters, Now for instance, in greek myths, there are 3 water Gods, the Primordial Pontus, which was the spiritual essence and fabric of water everywhere in a very primal,  pretty much omnipresent, but not very sentient state. Then there was Oceanus, one of the TItans, and titan of the oceans, personifying and controlling them in a more physical way, yet still being relatively passive, but more a directing force of development, less powerful and vital. And finally the olympian Posidon, who was for the most part, physical, more the god 'of' the seas, in smaller but more controlled areas, most sentient, yet least vital.

These three divisions of function from vital, primal, abstract, absolute...to concentrated, singular, concious and formed, seems in some way of relation to certain in show aspects, and is how i see the sisters, they are sisters in a similar way to the horsemen, but the power levels are vastly different, atrops seemed confident that her sisters were quite alot stronger than castiel and used them to strike fear into him, so if we can use each as a milstone of power, it would be equal to angel....seraph.........archangel in terms of power and influence, atropos being in charge of lesser beings, or basic fate, and equal to or above a seraph, the next, lets say clotho, charged with the fate of celestials and deities, by that magnetude difference 'more powerful in every sense of the word', similar to castiels mentioning of michael to raphael being 'far more powerful' seem like similar statements, one spoken by a regular angel, the other by atrops who is above angels. So Clotho would likely be between raphael and lucifer in power, nicely filling that rather large gap.

The Eldest of the sisters, lets say Lachies, by manitude would be..il be more fair and say on par with, or just above Michael, as just because she would be primordial does not mean she needs to be stronger than Michael, especially if the younger horsemen, all primordials are weaker than archangels, so Clotho would be around Eve's power or higher, im saying higher, and I like the idea that God has his own personal handmaiden, being the eldest fate, dealing with absolute destiny, the destiny of Gods own demise, his own natural order requiring it.

A few other things I would like to point out is, most dieties seem on par with regular angels, the higest ones being on par with seraphs, sure Lucifer slaughtered most, but he could have as easily, if not more easily done the same if the hotel was full of seraphs, and I now believe that where as God, a primordial created Angels, Death created reapers, Eve created monsters, another primal created the deities, possibly a being similar to God, as the deitites for the most part, look human and where around as a race, and a developed race, long before humans were.

Perhaps, where as Eve is basically Echidnea, mothers of monsters, perhaps they'll do something as crazy as bringing in typhon (echidneas husband in lore) as the dietity creator, who created his own race who, possibly with gods consent, were allowed to live on earth, as God certainly did not seem to mind, neither did the other archangels.

Princepurple (talk) 23:31, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Was Michael torturing Sam in the flashbacks of his time in the cage?

When Sam was in the cage burning by high amounts of fire according to the flashbacks he's been expierincing in the cage apart of Michael torturing him since Michael has the power of pyrokinesis and is able to manipulate and control fire? I don't know if this question had been speculated on but please feel free to respond to the topic if you like or message me about Michael on what your thoughts on if tortured Sam or not in Lucifer's Cage at (Dutchess12207 (talk) 21:57, August 31, 2014 (UTC))on my message wall thank you.

Castiel and Balthazar seemed to think that Michael participated in torturing him in the cage. But, it is just their word, we can't know it definitively. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:09 PM, August 31st 2014

OK Guys you need to stop with the whole Leviathans kill Archangels thing.. It has not been proven stop putting them on the weaknesses section jeez

---

Could you please sign your posts to distinguish between them ? Thanks. This is an ongoing discussion and both site's have legitimate arguments. If we don't achieve a general agreement on that matter, we should let the possibility open: On the Archangels page:

• Leviathans may be able to kill archangels, because...

On the Leviathans page:

• Archangels may be able to kill Leviathans, because...

This would ensure that the reader can decide for himself, which arguments are more convincingly. Lambda1 (talk) 19:31, October 8, 2015 (UTC)

S11E04 "Baby"

Was that Michael who appeared in Sam's dream? Ironwill (talk) October 29,2015 7:25(UTC)

Most believe it was Lucifer. No evidence points that someone else was sending Sam visions. Though I like to think there was someone else. Kajune (talk) 15:34, April 19, 2016 (UTC)

O Brother Where Art Thou?

Why isn't Michael in the cage with Lucifer? Am I forgetting something...? 78.60.187.5 12:13, December 12, 2015 (UTC)

I agree,he had to be there but only Lucifer was summoned,maybe that was part of the spell? User:The-Real-Ironwill 21:31 (UTC) Dec 12 2015

I sure hope so. I would not take it easily if suddenly the archangel I was named after is suddenly dropped from the show because his younger brother somehow overpowered him in the cage. (Yes, despite me defending Leviathan in debates I actually still am a fan of archangels, especially of Michael). FTWinchester (talk) 10:05, December 14, 2015 (UTC)

Since Lucifer escaped from the Cage, so long as he had a Vessel, could Michael still escape from the damaged Cage if he possesses Adam again. What do you all think? - Blaid 21:51, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

I was left confused too~ im spotting a plothole =X HAHA everyshow has it! or maybe adam/jake abel is busy so he could not show up XD anyway theres some theories if anyone is still interesting in poking around XP "Peek here" but if u seen it alrdy poking ard then okie ~ XD To be or not to be, that is the Question. (talk) 06:51, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Michael Page Needs Editing

OK, so the retcon issue from Hell's Angel has been resolved by adding in what's still most likely the case (Michael's the oldest), but added a "retcon alert" at the top of the page. Great. The Lucifer and Archangels page line up great... so why does the Michael page still say he's the second oldest? Can someone please edit this? I don't seem to be able to.

Following

Hello. I know this page is locked to stop an editing war, but I was wondering, if there was a way I could "follow" this page while it's locked, or do I have to wait for it to be unlocked first? Kajune (talk) 15:36, April 19, 2016 (UTC)

Edit needed

In the first line of the article, it says that Michael is the second oldest archangel, literraly, in the first line. May want to correct that.

Unlock the page

The page needs to be fixed. It says that Lucifer is Michael's older brother and there are many other mistakes. Please unlock the page. There is no Edit War to worry about now. Raphy (talk) 15:00, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Actor

Should we add Christian Keyes to Michael's page under actors?  I know it isn't the same Michael, but Season 13 is also listed under his appearances (as well as Bobby's),and I feel that it is inconsistant to have one but not the other. Dtol (talk) 07:44, September 24, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you, we should add both picture and actor. SeraphLucifer (talk) 07:47, September 24, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Distinguishing the Powers and Abilities of both Michaels

Before Season 13 begins I thought I should bring up something that occurred to me. As info on the alternate Michael will added to the main Michael's page, I believe it's important we do not to include the powers and abilities or description of the latter's. Remember they may both be Michael the Archangel but from two different universes, therefore two different individuals. They may not only differ in personalities, but also in powers and abilities. To be more specific, the alternate Michael may display powers in S13 we have not seen from the main Michael, so that doesn't mean we should assume he does too as that is speculative or more precisely indistinguishable between two "individual" Michaels. Now when comparing their powers and abilities such as who is more powerful, more skilled or even any differences (i,e, one is more brutal in combat than the other) would be alright to add to either's pages. Any thoughts? 70.93.90.147 01:39, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

There was already a page created for alternate Michael (Alternate Reality), the abilities and traits demonstrated by him will be placed on that page and not the original one. We won't be adding the info of ALTMichael on the original one, that would be quite silly. Zane T 69 (talk) 02:00, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Well, if you look at Michael's page, info on ALTMichael irrelevant to the original has been added to the page such as his image in the infobox along with the John and Adam as the main Michael's vessels and Christian Keyes as his portrayer. There was also a back and forth (if not an edit war) between Touchinos and Kajune on whether the info should be on Micheal's page, Touchinos found it be unnecessary to add info on ALTMicheal when he has his own page. Whereas Kajune said in his eyes, both Michael and Bobby's pages are the main pages for ALTMichael and ALTBobby while their own pages are subs. In the end, SeraphLucifer intervened, deciding that info on both of them should remain on the originals' pages. Although I didn't get involved myself, I agreed with Touchinos's stance, which is what prompted me to bring it up in the first place as I think the Powers and Abilities section should at least be an exception to SeraphLucifer's decision because of the points I made previously. 70.93.90.147 04:07, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

I agree; the powers and abilities should be kept on AU!Michael's page, as well as anything that happens in Season 13, but maybe having a short summary of AU!Michael's final fate on the original page wouldn't be that bad of a thing. Dtol (talk) 06:55, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

The alternate universe is just one where Sam and Dean were never born. They were born several billion years after creation, and thus several billion years after God created the archangels. There is no reason why their non-existence in that reality, which occurred a long time after the creation of the archangels, would have an impact on which powers God decided to give the archangels.

Orion (T-B-C) 07:43, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, but than we don't know 100% for sure ( at least beyond their initial powers as well as power levels when each of the original and alternate four archangels were created) which is the partial basis of my point. If ALTMichael were to possess any powers in S13 unique to him, that doesn't mean Michael does as well nor should all the powers only the latter has displayed be added to former's page either as that would be speculative. Just as a hypothetical scenario, what if ALTMichael were to molecular combust Lucifer with a snap of his fingers (ala Godstiel), should we assume the original is strong enough to do the same? Of course not, because we do not know if they are on par with each other or not as well as the fact it's commonly accepted that Michael and Lucifer are nearly on par with each other themselves. If my scenario were to be a reality, than as far we know ALTMichael could be capable of killing Lucifer so easily because he sought ways to increase his strength in order to conquer his universe outright such as absorbing all souls in Purgatory (as Cass had) and by doing so, he gained new powers. 70.93.90.147 08:48, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

What you're saying makes no sense. The split in the timeline of both universes only occurs at the point where God created mankind, since Sam and Dean are direct descendants of Cain and Abel. Future events do not influence past decisions. Cause before effect; not the other way around.

Orion (T-B-C) 11:14, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

No you misunderstood me, I am referring strictly to the original Cass absorbing the souls (and the Leviathans) in "The Man who Would Be King" and suggesting ALTMichael doing the same in his universe as example on how he could theoretically be more powerful or have unique powers in comparison to the original. 70.93.90.147 11:52, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Sure, he could be more powerful than "regular" Michael, but he must at least possess the same powers as "regular" Michael.

Orion (T-B-C) 11:57, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but you're missing my point, so I allow me to rephrase it. In order to remain consistent and factual, the only powers that should be added to ALTMichael's page are what is established during S13, not the powers his counterpart is known to possess. Also, to further clarify my primary point is that ALTMichael's powers/abilities should not be included along with the original's (unless in a comparison) to keep a distinction between the powers and abilities of the two in response to SeraphLucifer's decision that info on the alternate reality counterparts should be included on the originals' pages. 70.93.90.147 12:41, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Having the info for both characters dumped on the originals page is a horrible idea and would only cause problems and make the page impossible to manage. They are two distinct characters and should stay separate unless they have a proven shared history up to a point, and even then only the shared history should be included. I'll talk to Seraph about this, that is a bad idea. Zane T 69 (talk) 14:41, October 9, 2017 (UTC) If you want to know wahat exactly SeraphLucifer said when he made the decision, here's what he posted on Touchino's page: Hey Touchinos, Michael and Bobby pages should include the alternate version of themselves since they are the main ones. Please don't remove them :)". I hope this will give more clarification when you talk to him. 70.93.90.147 15:14, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

The Michael we got here is the original one. As far as we know, the only difference between him and the alternate version is that in AU, Sam and Dean were never born. About both pages, Alternate Michael is a sub-page for the original one. Michael appears in season 13, but his alternate self. That is why we should include his season appearance and a picture of his alternate vessel on the info-box. Besides that, it will be enough to write that there is an alternate version of Michael who conquered the world and rules it on the original page. It is not necessary to write powers displayed by AU Michael on the original page. We'll write biography, personality etc. on AU Michael page. That is what I suggest, anyone agree or disagree? SeraphLucifer (talk) 20:07, October 9, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Agree Dtol (talk) 20:09, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

I agree. And thank you for clarifying. Zane T 69 (talk) 20:30, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

I disagree to the extent of including the images of the counterparts and their portrayers (particularly Christian Keyes, in that he is not portraying the original Michael) to the originals' pages which should be relevant to only the sub pages. As I pointed out before there may be two Michael the Archangels now, but they are from two different universes ("not timelines"), therefore two different individuals and by extension two different backstories (at least up to the point of ALTJohn Winchester remaining dead in 1972) so should NOT be treated as they are the same characters as you are suggesting, SeraphLucifer. 70.93.90.147 21:05, October 9, 2017 (UTC)

Resurrection

As Lucifer has the power, claimed by Raphael, to resurrect Angels then should Michael (who is a bit stronger than Lucifer) be capable of it as well? All speculation, but should it be mentioned? - Blaid 21:49, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Speculation is not put on pages.  A lot of it has been removed recently. Dtol (talk) 22:04, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, logically Michael would be capable of resurrecting angels too, but as Dtol said, speculation is not allowed on the pages. I also have to point out that although we take Raphael's claim as fact, he "hypothetically" could have been lying as at that time he was trying to get Cass to change sides by convincing him that Lucifer may have resurrected him instead of God. Another possibility is that angel resurrection could have been a power Lucifer gained by other means such as through the Words of God (if not specifically the Angel Tablet) he had stashed away in his crypts. 70.93.90.147 23:23, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Although all that has been brought into question with the "Supreme Ruler" of the Empty. It makes me wonder how God can resurrect Angels like Castiel, or whether that Celestial Being is bluffing his true power. As for the Word of God, we have no evidence that Lucifer knew how to read or work the tablets, without Metatron or a Prophet. Ha, but if you think about it, Lucifer is a special fairy that has proven capable of possessing Angels too. - Blaid 19:42, November 3, 2017 (UTC)

Alternate

Should we have alt!Michael's info on here? Like his appearances and actor? It seems a little redundant since alt!Michael is a completely different character. JS0662 (talk) 14:41, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

It isn't necessary, it has its own page. It is OK to write small info tho like appearances and actor. SeraphLucifer (talk) 14:43, November 25, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I realize after rereading my post that I didn't really get across what I was trying to say. I'm saying that we should remove his appearances and actor since it's a completely different character. Same with Bobby and Kevin. They're completely different characters. JS0662 (talk) 14:49, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

My bad, the basic information about Alt!Michael should stay on this page since this one is the original one. SeraphLucifer (talk) 14:55, November 25, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Sorry, I'm not really understanding what you're saying. The original Michael page? If that's what you're saying, then that's my point. Michael and Alt!Michael are two completely different characters whose pages should be kept separate. It's like this on basically every other wiki that contains a multiverse. JS0662 (talk) 14:57, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

I agree. I'm still confused why people keep putting info of a completely new character to the original ones. It doesn't make any sense. Touchinos (talk) 15:21, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

I think that some basic info should be on this page.  Either that, or remove Bobby's Season 12 appearances, because it's technically not this-world Bobby either. It doesn't make sense to do it differently on two pages.  Dtol (talk) 16:00, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree about removing them all. I'll go ahead and do that. JS0662 (talk) 16:08, November 25, 2017 (UTC)

@JS: Having two out of four participants in a discussion agreeing is not consensus, you needed more people. Also, you will be unable to participate in this discussion for three-days, for breaking the 3RR rule and lying to twist the results of a debate for your own ends. Zane T 69 (talk) 14:54, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with JS0662 and Touchinos, and i don't have sure, but when was confirmed that the Michael from the main universe is the original? Both Michaels were the same until the apocalypse when AU Michael had to find other vessel besides Dean and Adam since they aren't born right? Also, put the information of one character's page in another as was said dosen't make sense that just because the fact that we were introduced to the main Bobby, Michael and Kevin first, their pages should content information about their alternative versions, all versions of each character has the same importance as living beings. Doctor49 (talk) 00:17, November 28, 2017 (UTC)

Insults

I don't hink that "buttercup" and "assbutt" count as "title" or "alias", they are just insults and he's been called like that just once.Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 09:57, February 17, 2019 (UTC)

Holy fire

Wait to see if holy fire can actually kill Michael, don't add speculations Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 11:21, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

The strongest Michael

We don't really know if AU Michael is stronger. Lucifer said that. Maybe he lied using a pathetic excuse because he was beaten very easily, as he lied about Michael's insanity. Without a confrontation we can't say that. And, seeing that main Michael still using his powers even with the handcuffs, I'd say he is the strongest. Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 14:38, December 14, 2019 (UTC)

I agree, Lucifer also lied about himself being strong enough to take on the Darkness single-handedly. Maybe on AU Michael's page we should say that he was "claimed" to be the strongest angel but that it isn't directly confirmed.Thetwindler (talk) 17:34, December 14, 2019 (UTC)

What was Michael doing in the cage all the time?

Both God and Lucifer both said that Michael went crazy in the cage. However, this is not because we saw the diner interacting normally, and of course Lucifer needed an argument why the Winchesters should free him and not Michael from the cage. In any case, I would like to know what Michael did in the cage all the time, when he wasn't fighting Lucifer or singing and masturbating as Lucifer claimed? Anonyme Tät (talk) 20:43, December 25, 2019 (UTC)

Angel Tablet

How powerful would Michael become if he uses the Tablet like Metatron did? Would he reach Jack's power when Lucifer stole his grace? Or even stronger? Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 13:47, July 1, 2020 (UTC)