Talk: Lucifer

Drop the origin?

I might have skipped a scene where his origins were mentioned, but was it really stated that he grew arrogant and made other angels join him? If I remember correctly, he refused to bow down to human, and for beign rebellious, God had him cast down to Hell. There, he created Lilith, in which God actually sealed him where nobody could come near him. Unfortunately, I don't have any copies of the previous season at hand, so this is just from what I remember, but for me, it sounds like the Origin-section is taken from another information source, and not from what is canon in the series.

Granted, I might be wrong, but I wanted to make sure before I edit anything on his page.

Penamesolen 09:46, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

It would seem that the origin mentioned in the article is not actually canon (according to the show), but rather from real world mythology and no doubt, the Bible. Can't completely recall whether there was any explicit mention of fallen angels following him though. I would support the removal of non-canon parts. Calebchiam ^Talk 12:53, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the story is the same, for if you recall, Azazel spoke of how he wandered the desert for years looking for Lucifer. Azazel was one of the fallen angels that was cast out with Lucifer, and was thrown into a desert to wander by Raphael. This was briefly alluded to in Lucifer Rising, where Azazel spoke of how he'd been "wandering the desert for years, looking for our father". What's more, Uriel also implied and spoke about the war in Heaven, amongst other angels throughout who have spoken of "the last war". Lucifer also spoke of the part in which he asked Michael to join him before his rebellion broke out in The End. With no backstory to go off of, this article would be pointless. Also, do not confuse the fact that most all of the Supernatural storylines are heavily if not entirely based upon their real-life mythologies. Lucifer1987 14:06, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I support the data and information that Lucifer1987 gave. He or she was very explicit and this user stands correct in all of his or her statements. The scene statements were also very accurate; these statements came from canonical sources.

-- Anderson Writer, MAY 6th 2010 (UTC)

After his downfall, Lucifer shouldn't be considered an archangel anymore. More like an archdemon.Epakrios (talk) 21:55, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

That's technically false, though. All the rules of that govern an archangel still applied to Lucifer. He still needed a (living) vessel and a consent. Even demons still considered him to be an angel. FTWinchester (talk) 22:40, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Of course I understand that that's what the producers wanted him to be in the show. I just said what he should be considered. He does not represend good, because he is the source of all evil and, normally, angels are forces of good.Epakrios (talk) 22:47, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

It did make for an interesting twist, though. I mean most works describe him to be a fallen angel, but usually represent him to be entirely something else. Seeing him in this series still as an archangel (almost basically unchanged) made it a bit different from other literature of the same genre. FTWinchester (talk) 23:11, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Much seems taken from classic mythology, not Supernatural canon

Did they ever mention in Supernatural that other angels fell with Lucifer (and became demons)? My impression was that *all* of the demon were corrupted humans. Lilith was the most powerful of them, and she was formerly human.

First, sign your posts using four "~". Secondly, yes they allude at different points about the fallen angels, Azazel being one of them. In biblical lore, Azazel was one of the fallen angels that sided with Lucifer during the War in Heaven and was there when they were defeated. Raphael, the archangel, subsequently cast Azazel into a desert, where he wandered for years in search of his master and thinking of ways to taint humanity as his master had done. Azazel alludes to this in Lucifer Rising when he states that "I have been wandering the desert for years, looking for our father." This is just one of those instances. Uriel also speaks of Lucifer's rebellion and described him as a very beautiful angel shortly before he was killed by Anna Milton. Lucifer1987 16:46, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

It is technically never stated if Azazel is one of the fallen angels, and even if he was, neither is it stated that Raphael was the one to banish him. Angels and demons in Supernatural sometimes mock or mention that the Bible is wrong or different from how it truly happened, so for all we know, Azazel could be aware of the Bible's story of him and mentioned it in a way to mock it, since he was in a church.

I'm not saying that it is completely untrue, but I think that it is possible. On the other hand, if Azazel really was an fallen angel, he would most likely be an average angel like Uriel; it is speculated that the Colt can kill normal angels, and if Azazel fell from being average angel, we know that average angels have equal or inferior strength to white-eyed demons and Lilith, thus it would make sense that the Colt was able to kill him, even if he was very high up in the list of powerful demons.

I do agree that they mention a war in Heaven and all in a non-mocking situation, but unless the writers have mentioned something I've missed, we can only assume that Azazel did not joke when he said he wandered the dessert, and that it was Raphael who bansihed him.

On the other hand, is it a reason why images from Paradise Lost are used here? While some terms about Lucifer from the book is used here, the images are never usd in the show itself, and seems to be there only to show the story. I don't really think they should be there, but it might just be my opinion. I'd like to write more, but I've got a bus to catch, sorry.

Penamesolen 11:43, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Much of Supernatural is based upon the actual lore of the creatures, and I really don't think they're going to have Azazel mention his story in a mocking fashion if it wasn't true. He was after all noted in biblical lore to have been an angel, so we really have no reason to believe he was lying. To say so is to try to simply avoid it, which isn't a good policy.

As to the pictures, they're very well-known images that are often associated with Lucifer, even on Wikipedia. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with using them, especially when we have history sections about the actual mythology of the creatures. I see no reason to remove them, especially considering that the show never shows us flashbacks of what happened. When you don't have much to work with, you have to use what you can if you want to have a very appealing article. Lucifer1987 15:51, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

David Kaique please read this...

Regarding the picture I specifically planted into Lucifer's character template, why did you (David Kaique) feel the need to revert it back? I mean, come on; first off, the one I inserted was, no offense, and I mean you no disrespect whatsoever, a lot better. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:50 PM, May 6th 2011

Season 7 Appearances

Does anyone know for a fact that Lucifer will be appearing after The Born Again Identity. It has not been confirmed at all if he will be appearing to Castiel. So why does he have all these appearances in upcoming episodes? Mr.Comatose 00:41, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Registered User

To prevent these pages from being tampered with by Wiki Contributors with their own varied opinions can you guys make it so only registered can tamper with pages, so you can know exactly who is doing it and why?Consus, the Erudite God (talk) 01:15, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

The Supernatural Wiki does fine with Wiki Contributers such as myself being allowed to edit on pages, so there is absolutely no reason to go such extremes as to restrict to registered users only. I have edited on this wiki for at least three years, I can honestly say your conern for the pages being tampered by those with varied opinions happens more often with registered users than it does with Wiki Contributers. 107.194.27.114 01:25, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Anons can be anyone, plus if you add yourself it wouldn't change your work ethic. Besides registered users can easily be taken out. Anons are much more devious. I like this Wiki and I want to keepit safe from those who wish to treat it as a worthless space to clutter with theories, authorative aggression, and abuse of community privileges. Consus, the Erudite God (talk) 01:54, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

The fact is any trouble with Wiki Contributers is not frequent enough nor too extreme that would require editing on the wiki to be restricted from them in general. In addition, registion is not a mandatory policy on Wikia, so Anons should be free to contribute annonymously if that is what they prefer. You can not simply place such a restriction on a wiki to only registered users because a lone user does not want Anons to be allowed access as he/she finds them as a whole to be responisble for what the minority with malicous intent have done, when most others are actually helping to improve the wiki instead. With that said, I feel you are being too judgemental to unregistered users (including myself), seeing as this wiki often has edit wars between those who are registered as well as heated discussions on the talk pages that ocassionally can get too way out of hand, wheras I rarely see such devious Wiki contributers you speak of. If I may point out, you wanting to keep the Supernatural Wiki safe from users who wish to use it as worthless space to clutter with theories, authorative agression, and abuse of community privileges sounds more like displeasure towards ImperiexSeed for how he has adminstrated the wiki rather than trouble caused by Anons. 108.225.239.27 05:39, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

I have nothing against Imperiex, but I feel he has the potential to be an enormous threat. You anons have the choice to join and what exactly is stopping you. Because you like the feeling of being anonymous and don't want to be known but still contribute right? "Wheras I rarely see such devious Wiki contributers you speak of"? Of course you don't see them, but I do on the Wiki I primarily help on. All the same, besides you would have more free reign if you were registered anyway so what exactly is the problem with it? You feel you are being too judgemental to unregistered users (including youself)? No anon, I don't think I being judmental enough. Personal opinions are scattered across anons and registered users, and through unkown contributions it only makes them more complicated to regulate. I am not restricting your freedom, you can still edit as much as you could registered as you were unregistered, probably even more so. It's funny how you want to contribute but don't even put yourself as part of the community. It's one of the reasons why anons are so troublesome.Consus, the Erudite God (talk) 17:12, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

But these devious Wiki Contributers you see on the wiki you primary help on are irreleant to the Supernatural Wiki, so again, you can not you use that as a basis to restrict access from the Anons on this wiki.. 108.247.158.61 17:47, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Like I said before (probably somewhere else) they are everywhere and I never said I didn't see them on this wiki as well as the one I work on, so don't even try to use that against me, Anon. In fact, I see on right now. Consus, the Erudite God (talk) 17:51, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Fine, keep it here. I don't see why it's prohibited if it's my own comments but I really don't careConsus, the Erudite God (talk) 00:16, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

BIokinesis vs molecular manipulation

Don't you guys think manipulating molecules is more like molecular manipulation than biokinesis?Undominanthybrid (talk) 11:11, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the process basically involves boiling the blood of the victim to make them explode. That's why I say it's biokinesis. SilverRain (talk) 01:53, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

My stance, Molecular Manipulation > Biokinesis > Telekinesis. As while, both Molecular Manipulation and Biokinesis is a separate power from Telekinesis. It's at it's base form just a advanced form of Telekinesis, but depending on the user it can separate into a completely separate power from Telekinesis. Similar to how Pryokinesis is just the control of fire while, Telekinesis is movement of object and persons in general.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 02:02, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Don't you think that blood can be boiled through Thermokinesis?85.154.176.15 19:44, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Most definitely, I'd say. But only by holders like Death/the Pale Horseman/Hades, Michael and Lucifer (and, God, obviously). -- ImperiexSeed, 3:03 PM, February 14th 2013

I never actually got the impression Lucifer killed by boiling blood. I just assumed he used Telekinesis to make Cas blow up by literally tearing him apart, like he did with the Pagan gods, only stronger.

Though there are other ways it could have happened:

Thermokinesis - Rapidly increase the temperature of the air in Jimmy's lungs. Would cause almost instantaneous expansion of said air.

Thermokinesis - Boil Jimmy's blood. The release of gases would cause him to rupture.

Molecular Manipulation - Change the polar charge of every molecule in Jimmy's body so they all repelled each other, causing him to explode.

What I don't understand is how any of that would actually kill Castiel. Sure, all of it would destroy his vessel, but they're all physical deaths affecting a physical vessel. I don't get how it killed a spiritual being. KevinTheDestoryer (talk) 22:41, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Lucifer, too, is a Spiritual being. And Angel's powers affect each other, obviously. Now, while Angel forms and physiques don't have veins or tendons - they're bodies, nonetheless. Lucifer attacked Castiel's body, and killed it, in the form of Biokinesis. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:46 PM, February 14th 2013

No, it's far beyond just biokinesis. Castiel said he was literally 'gone' or dead when he exploded--something else just brought him back. So, there is something else more powerful accompanying the biokinesis (which kills the vessel). The term Raphael and Dean used in 'Free to Be You and Me' was 'smite'. So, what Lucifer did to Castiel, and what Raphael did to Castiel, and what Godstiel/Soulstiel did to Raphael was biokinesis+smiting power. FTWinchester (talk) 22:49, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, in Supernatural, the term "smite", is associated with Killing Touch. Or, so it seems. The word smite means to annihilate or destroy. Or, I guess, "end",(of something) could the appropriate term for "smite." -- ImperiexSeed, 5:54 PM, February 14th 2013

And end did the lives of the target beings. I'm just saying the canon described the act as 'smiting', so we should label it as such, and rename the current 'Smite' as the killing touch. Or it is possible that both are the same, in the sense that they deliver a kill, just with differing magnitudes of power and range. FTWinchester (talk) 23:05, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

In THAT sense, yes - they're the same. But Killing Touch ("smiting") is not the same as imploding something. The result is, essentially, the same - death. But to say that Killing Touch and to blow something up are the same, in representing "smiting", is wrong. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:11 PM, February 14th 2013

That is paramount to saying that the episode script and the writers are wrong.

Chuck said in 'Sympathy for the Devil', "The archangel smote the crap out of him.'

Raphael in 'Free to Be You and Me' said, "It is a testament to my unending mercy that I do not smite you here and now." To which Dean replies, "Or maybe you're full of crap. Maybe God will bring Cas back to life again and smite you and your candy-ass skirt."

Those lines describe exactly what our wiki has been calling 'Molecular Combustion', only 'Molecular Combustion' merely destroys the host/vessel and not the supernatural being, as KevinTheDestoryer pointed out earlier.  FTWinchester (talk) 23:23, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

You forget two things. One, Castiel was all but human, he was basically human, until God restored him with new powers. Second, when an Angel or Demon possess someone. If certain conditions are met when the body is destroyed, it also kills the angel or demon. Also, 'smiting' is not a power per say, but around the lines as Rapheal and Uirel said smiting as this is what it means in my own words As a divine, holy, etc beings killing or passing judgement on lesser things." 

As far as killing touch. They are two kinds, ones that have an effect that can kill, and ones that possess the power of Death. Like with Reapers and Death. I mean, that Special Child in season 2, her power made people's hearts stop. But, that's not the same as a reaper which his'her touch is basically Death itself. As with those people, in Death takes a Holiday in season 4. Minus conditions like crossroad deals, and hellhounds, and maybe deals with angels. If a reaper is binded in an area, all death stop.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 00:30, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Castiel wasn't exactly human the first time he exploded like a balloon--and that's the scenario the dialogues I posted pointed out. FTWinchester (talk) 01:42, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Psychic Projection?

Wasn't the reason Lucifer could talk to Azazel because Azazel performed some sort of ritual by sacrificing nuns and isn't Lucifer's hallucination due to the Sam's cage match scars? If so, how is that projection? 

Companion Guide said that Sammy's hallucinations were a psychic projection.Dragonvalejunkie (talk) 19:09, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I could be mistaken, but I don't recall such a ritual was required to speak with Lucifer through his "cage door." If I'm correct, he killed the nuns for kicks. It wasn't revealed it was anything more than hallucinations, but in the companion guide for season seven, it says he could've been projecting a part of himself from the cage. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:19 PM, February 11th 2014

Azazel says "I'm not exactly the praying type but still I made the sacrifice, I got you a bag full of nuns, so can you hear me? Can you whisper through the door". Which implies sacrificing the nuns was what let Lucifer speak to Azazel rather than just meaningless kill. Which would make sense as Lucifer talks through the mouth of one of the dead nuns. Also, Sam's hallucinations being Lucifer projecting himself from the cage makes so sense, as the wall wouldn't help repress that and it would mean lucifer was projecting himself into castiel's mind as well as Leviathan Sam's. 

Better than his own kind??

I am curious, sure, Lucifer had followers, but those that surfaced, led by uriel were likely all weaker than one of Lucifers own creations, a demon, one in example being Alastair, and being that Lucifer would likely use demons for his cause, if Uriel had survived and so did Alastair, wouldn't Lucifer have the more powerful demon in charge of his loyalist angels??

Alastair, who in all fairness seems weaker than by a wide margin than Cain or lilith, seems perfectly capeable of holding rank over lesser angels, and from what we saw, uriel, a standard angel, was in charge of the angel loyalists. It seems amazing to me that Lucifer can corrupt a human soul into a being more powerful than the second tier of his own race, the lowest being cherubs, but certain demons without doubt are far stronger than angels, given the fact that Sam killed Alstair, then did little more then make Liliths hair  move kinda shows the power gap, where as Cain seems to have deity like powers and is much higher to a regular demon than a seraph is to an angel.

So I have to wonder, if Lucifer can produce beings stronger than angels, whats to say that he diddn't make one or two to be stronger than Seraphs? I mean he is capeable right?? and with Cains recent showings, I'm strongly in the impression that cain is one such demon, I think Lucifer initially wanted him as his destroyer class ultimate weapon, but during the apocalypse he was able to hide, if an angel can help the boys prevent archangels finding them then im sure the supirior, ancient, god like demon cain could aswel, I mean even seraph castiel couldn't click his fingers to teleport the king of hell or the winchesters from place to place, or silence anyone, i think the reason, they decided to shown off what cain can do was to clearly point out, that he is not a normal demon, he was made with a special purpose, to kill angels, with an angel blade or possibly his smiting, or at least casually overpower seraphs, when Lucifer made Lilith, it was his first attempt, like gods first was the leviathan, but Cain was Lucifers archangel Michael, his refined work, thats what I think anyway, thing is, the Archangel can make Angel thwarting demons so why not seraph thwarting demons???

Princepurple (talk) 17:35, March 11, 2014 (UTC)