Talk:Knights of Hell

Why did they protect this page from being edited?

Should the colt and angel killing knife be added as weaknesses? I suggest they should.

never shown or mentioned, so no real grounds to add them, its like why we don't include leviathans and death on every page, it either goes without saying or it has no grounds. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:50, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm.... Well, the Colt, definitely, and an Angel-Killing blade should be able to kill one. The Colt, being a weapon that can kill anything but Lucifer and four other, powerful Creations. And with the Angel-killing blade, it would depend on how the blade killed the demon. For instance, if the blade, although unlikely, killed the demon in the exact fashion as the Knife, than it would reason that it would be as ineffective as the knife. But, seeing as it's an Angelic weapon, it likely has a greater effect. Goes without saying - well, okay - General, but Salt, Holy Water, etc go without saying, yet we include than on demon pages. Bottom line, the Colt can kill a Knight-of-Hell, and an Angel-Killing blade may or may not be able to. --

An angel blade/angel can't kill a knight, because if they could, they just would have used one, but they had to get the first blade. ImperiexSeed, 1:12 PM, February 7th 2012

Holy Fire.

How do we know that Sam actually used Holy Oil on Abaddon and not regular flammable oil or gasoline? Castiel did say the oil was rare. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:13, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

The word "rare" was used, yes, but this weapon has been used in seven episodes. And I don't think Cas teleports every time the boys need some, so it can't be that rare. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:27 PM, May 24th 2013

Still, I would think they used up that entire jug we saw Castiel bring to capture Raphael. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:30, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

We need to take one thing into account: demons' vessels. Unlike Angels' vessels, demonic meatsuits can be penetrated and not repaired. So analogically, regular fire could burn a demon's vessel. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:35 PM, May 24th 2013

Which I believe as well, so we can't really put Holy Fire/Oil as the thing that set Abaddon on fire. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:45, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

True but demons can't be hurt by conventional methods, as such normal fire can't hurt demons, it might damage there meat suit, but it won't hurt them (Azazel standing in a burning building in Salvation). While Abaddon was clearly screaming in agony, just as Meg did in Abaddon all Hope..., therefore it had to be holy oil. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:06, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

The demonic being inside isn't hurt by something like fire, but the corporeal embodiment it uses would be. But also, as said in "Torn and Frayed", in possession, demons possess every part of the person's body. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:49 PM, May 24th 2013

I know, but Abaddon was clearly screaming in agony, if it wasn't painful she wouldn't have had to leave the body, she could simply have continued to attack or else put the fire out. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:13, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

She was audibly screaming in agony, and I myself thought it was Holy Fire. But, I was engaging L4D2 Ellis in a conversation. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:28 PM, May 24th 2013

Okay, I didn't think you would mind if I joined in. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:31, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

No, not at all. Comment. :) -- ImperiexSeed, 3:32 PM, May 24th 2013

I think demons can be hurt by conventional methods, they're just a lot more resilient to it. Regular fire should still hurt them, just not kill them. Holy Oil would probably be much worse. As for Azazel standing in a burning building, was he actually on fire like Abaddon was? Also adding, if he started the fire, he should be immune to his own creation. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:52, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

No they can't, in multiple episodes they get shot, stabbed, cut open, blasted, fall great hights and cracked. Only there specific weaknesses can hurt them (holy water, salt etc) they still react to force, but this understandable as the sensations of touch and pain are quite different. No, Holy oil wouldn't as it was already tried upon Meg, she was pulled into it, and still managed to use the same vessel to the end. He might no actually be on fire, but are you honestly telling me you wouldn't burn if you stood in a burning building? And no, why should he be? He's still wearing a mortal host, unless he bended the fire around him, which seems an unecessary waste of energy, plus he would still be burt by the heat. Sam even states in Good God, Y'all Demons are immune to heat and cold. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:17, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, meaning that they're still technically getting hurt. They're just not as affected by it as humans are.

I would burn, but a person being possessed by a demon wouldn't so easily. And I wouldn't find bending fire to keep my host in shape to be an unneccesary waste of energy. Beats having to find another one.

Yeah, the demons are immune to head and cold, nothing about their meat suits. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:27, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

No, actually the sensations of pain and touch are much more different then most people give them credit for being, there even managed by different sensations of the brain. Let me put this way, even if you didn't feel pain, if someone clobbered you in the face, it would knock you backwards. Why not? They still get damaged, the demons simply don't feel pain and are able to adjust much better, as its not there bodies, simply the one there wearing. Even if you did, the heat from the fire would still burn your body, besides Azazel quickly abanddoned that body and took Johns (granted he couldn't have know he would, but still it still seems a bit of waste.) General MGD 109 (talk) 21:31, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

If I may just say that to be honest, it really never occurred to me that what was used was Holy Fire. I heard Sam mutttering something but I don't recall that enchantment (if it was), and I didn't hear it properly. My first thought was actually some spell. I'm not saying it is absolutely not holy fire--I just didn't get much evidence. If I could ask for those who believe it was holy fire please point out evidence, please? Thanks. FTWinchester (talk) 01:46, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think all Sam said was that he loved Abaddon's suit. Meaning he was gonna set Josie on fire. He wanted Abaddon to flee the scene.  L4D2 Ellis (talk) 02:26, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm Sorry FTWinchester I thought that was what I had been doing. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:27, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

It's because I thought it was some sort of spell that utilized flames. We never heard any of the characters muttering some sort of enchantment just to activate holy fire. FTWinchester (talk) 18:58, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith

If the Knights of Hell are the first fallen humans created by Lucifer himself and Lilith was the first demon also created by the archangel, so probably she was one to, right?

I had the same thought too. But it'll be one of those things that'll never get explained on the show.RaghavD Taking the ROAD less travelled 16:58, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Not necessarily, Lilith was the first, she's the oldest demon, the viceroy of hell, presumably then comes Azazel another viceroy, then Alastair, the grand inquisator. I think the knights, much like there fuedel namesakes are hells elite warriors, where as the higher demons are more akin to royalty. Crowley clearly thought they would be subservial to him when he was king. Besides apparat from age Lilith doesn't really have that much resemblence to a knight of hell.  General MGD 109 (talk) 17:04, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

I personally am confused by it I mean who came first Cain the father of murder or Lilith? It sounds like Lilith being the first demon was a false assumption but given the story of Lilith, Adam and Eve I suppose it's possible that Lilith and Cain became demons roughly around the same time. I wish they'd explain this.MrAnonymous (talk) 14:40, May 21, 2014 (UTC)MrAnonymous

When Lilith was human, she was Adam's first wife, but he rejected her and she was sent to Earth and Lucifer might have turned her into a demon at that time. Then, after the fall of humanity, Lucifer, trapped in his cage, might have turned Cain into a demon by giving him the mark.Rakoon1 (talk) 15:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Fallen is factual, accurate and canonical.

The description 'fallen' was used by Henry Winchester himself when he described the Knights, so please stop omitting it. A lot of users/contributors are removing it because they think it makes the Knights 'fallen angels'--they are not. It pertains to fallen men/souls. Describing Knights as 'fallen', as per a canon character's canon description, is only proper. I made the page during the official airing of the episode, so I can guarantee its accuracy. FTWinchester (talk) 02:26, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't know. Maybe someone should post a blog about it to notify users. Gurgatory (talk) 02:29, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

It's completely fine. Judgment-free zone. I just posted this here so that there will be no more confusion. Cheers! FTWinchester (talk) 02:32, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Might I also add for people to please not omit the descriptions 'first-fallen', 'first-born', 'very pure', and 'very strong'. They were also canon descriptions on Knights of Hell. FTWinchester (talk) 02:09, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

King of Hell

So, King/Queen of Hell being a actual position (rather than Crowley being arrogant) looks like it's canon, given Abaddon's comments. Should we make a page for it like we did for Knights of Hell? If so, what information could we put for it and who should be listed as having held that rank? (Crowley is the only one who is explicitly named the King of Hell, even though I would think that Azazel, Lilith, and Lucifer were all the King/Queen during their time on Earth.)--NaiflidG (talk) 14:38, October 19, 2013 (UTC)

Sure looks like it's canon. To elaborate, we could add Lucifer's back story, Lilith's creation, Azazel's plan (in brief), then come, the details of Azazel's, Lilith's and Lucifer's demise and the sections for Crowley and Abaddon. All the one's mentioned are worthy of the title. I think the more appropriate name for the page could be Hell's Rulers? RaghavDAll I need is ONE life, ONE try, ONE breath, I'm ONE man 16:30, October 19, 2013 (UTC)

Works for me.--NaiflidG (talk) 18:01, October 19, 2013 (UTC)

I'm with that, although wasn't Lilith and Azazel just ruling as viceroy for Lucifer? General MGD 109 (talk) 18:59, October 19, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with General. The title King/Queen has never been claimed by demons before Crowley did. The title was self-styled by Crowley, and it was merely adopted by Abaddon who wanted to usurp it. We had no cues from canon that such title existed before Crowley made it, and Azazel and Lilith most certainly did not want that title for themselves, but for their creator. But I don't disagree with the page itself. FTWinchester (talk) 13:05, October 20, 2013 (UTC)

So, I've made some rough-draft summaries of some of the named positions in Hell's hierarchy that we know of based on what information immediately sprang to mind. For the theoretical pages on King of Hell and King of the Crossroads, we can use the information as a starting point and flesh the pages out as we go.

"The King of Hell is the title belonging to the demon who rules over Hell and its denizens, including other demons. It appears that kingship is won through battles between aspiring demons, with the demon who emerges victorious being proclaimed king. It is implied that gaining the title of King of Hell bestows a demon with more power than he or she had previously. The king can alter the very nature of Hell, e.g. changing it from an stormy abyss in which souls are strung up with chains to an ordinary-looking room in which souls are forced to wait in line for eternity. Demons are forbidden from giving out any information about their king to humans, even his name. Demons can choose to rebel against the King and work against him, although doing so causes them to be labelled as traitors and can get them sent back to Hell, tortured, and/or killed if they are caught by the King's forces. The only named King of Hell is Crowley, King of the Crossroads, although it is probable that Azazel, Lilith, and Lucifer all held the position themselves when they were active on Earth."

"The King of the Crossroads is the title belonging to the demon in charge of the crossroads demons, who are called his "employees" and who in turn call him their "boss". The King of the Crossroads is lower-ranked and typically less powerful than the King of Hell and presumably the Knights of Hell, although at least one King of the Crossroads has served as the right-hand man of Hell's then-leader. He is said to hold important contracts, such as the one for Dean Winchester's soul. He also has access to extremely valuable occult artifacts in Hell's possession, such as the Colt and Death's Scythe. As with the King of Hell, crossroads demons are forbidden from giving out the name of their king to humans and breaking this rule is implied to result in terrifying punishment. The only named King of the Crossroads is Crowley, who later assumes the position of King of Hell; it is unknown if he retains his old position as King of the Crossroads or if another demon has taken over in his stead."

"The Knights of Hell are demons who have been personally created by Lucifer; as such, they are called the "first-fallen" demons, indicating that they were made shortly after Lilith, making them among the oldest of their kind. They are described as "very pure" and "very strong" demons. The Knights are sent to carry out important tasks for Hell. It is implied that they are supposed to serve the King of Hell, although one of them has also been called a "hired gun," which would indicate that they may be willing to work for other parties for a price. If they disapprove of the current King of Hell, they will attack him in attempt to gain kingship for themselves. The only named Knight of Hell is Abaddon, and it is suggested that she was also the only surviving Knight by 1958. Abaddon has black eyes usually associated with common demons, but whether or not all Knights were black-eyed is unknown."

FTWinchester, General, I would argue more for Azazel and Lilith having been actual Kings of Hell, but "king" doesn't look like a word to me anymore so I'm gonna have to take a break and work on college-stuff. Maybe you could lay out your arguments against it and I'll try to counter them when I get back? If anyone has a problem with something in the summaries in general, feel free to point it out and I'll try to explain how I got to that conclusion. Peace out.--NaiflidG (talk) 19:02, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Nicely written. I would have made some rephrasing but those are very minor. As for Azazel and Lilith, I have no boubt they functioned similarly to a King of Hell, it's just that they were organizing/leading the demons to free an even more powerful being in Hell's chain of command, as opposed to Crowley who wanted everything for himself, which is why I would consider the two more like Viceroys or Regents (the latter is the term I initially preferred to use, but I forgot about it and I had to look it up). But effectively, in each of their respective activities, they could be considered "kings". FTWinchester (talk) 11:16, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

I pretty agree with FTWinchester, it all seems very good and well written. A few cases of rephrasing may be needed though. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:08, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

I've started editing the Knight of Hell page and will try to finish it up in the next day or so by fleshing out the Powers and Abilities and the Trivia sections and creating a Characteristics section, to fit in more with the other Creatures pages. It'd be nice to have a Lore section, too, especially since Adam Glass tweeted that he came across Knights of Hell in research, but I don't know where he found that and I'd never heard of them before Supernatural. Does anyone have any real-world lore on Knights of Hell for us to put in? Also, are we all in agreement for creating pages for King of Hell and/or King of the Crossroads? Yea or nay?

As for Azazel and Lilith, yeah, I can see what you guys are saying, but I still feel that they qualify as Kings because they appear to have both been the leaders of at least the majority of demons when they were on the show, seemingly fulfilling exactly the same role that Crowley has now. Theoretically, if they were Kings, Azazel/Lilith could've simply stepped down from their position and let Lucifer take their place once he was free if they'd been alive. (I mean, it's not like they'd have much of a choice once he got out, anyway--he was way stronger than them.) Other than that, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Azazel and Crowley were compared by show-people as Kings of Hell, and if Azazel was confirmed to have been a King, it makes sense that Lilith, the one who replaced him in the power vacuum, had been King/Queen, too. Unfortunately, I don't actually have that reference on-hand and don't know where to start looking for it again. Unless I can find it, can we note the possibility of Azazel/Lilith/Lucifer as King of Hell in the Trivia section, or would that be speculation?--NaiflidG (talk) 22:24, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I'm in agreement. As for the other bit, if you can't find the source I wouldn't include, I know its only the trivia section, but some fans are pretty strict when it comes to that. Still I'm all for the creation of said pages, go ahead, I look forward to reading them when there done. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:47, November 6, 2013 (UTC)

Age

Where's this talk that the Knights of Hell have existed as an order for specifically 180,000 years coming from? I don't remember ever hearing it mentioned that this is the precise time when the Knights were founded or came into existence or whatever, only that they were among the earliest demons. TroopDude (talk) 20:47, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

I added that. The reason I came to that date (180,000 BC) is because Show has previously indicated that humans are the end-product of evolution; in "The End" (Lucifer's description of the human race as "the little hairless apes"), "The Man Who Would Be King" (the fish on land that God had "big plans" for, implied to be what humans evolved from), and, like with "The End", angels' insults of humans in general tend to be based on calling humans "apes," "monkeys," etc., i.e. comparing humans to primates. All of this indicates to me that while God did create humanity, he didn't create them out of nothing with a snap of his fingers; he created them through the evolutionary process, from more ape-like primates and what the primates evolved from (the fish). If we accept the real-world's date for when we as a species (the anatomically modern humans) first emerged as the date for when God brought the first humans into existence via evolution (which I think we should--there is nothing to contradict it and Supernatural very often borrows on real-world dates and events), then the first humans were created around two hundred thousand years ago (which, correct me if I'm wrong, I understand to be 180,000 BC) and He then presented them to His angels for the angels to bow to them. Lucifer refuses and instead creates Lilith, for which he is locked in his Cage. Before he is imprisoned, though, he is said to also create Cain and the Knights at this time. I personally don't think he did because I think that he would only have time to turn Lilith and damn Cain's soul and possibly the souls of the Knights of Hell, but canon's current stance is that he personally created them and until they go into more detail about it, I can't contradict them. Therefore, since humans were first created around 180,000 BC and the Knights were created as among the first demons, then, assuming that Lucifer immediately lashed out against humans and God by beginning to turn humans into demons after God ordered him to bow to them, the Knights would have been born as humans around 180,000 BC and turned into demons by Lucifer soon after.--NaiflidG (talk) 22:02, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Locked

Can someone please unlock this page?!?! It's been locked for over a month, and I see no reason why it should be locked. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 07:28, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Dean is a knight of hell

At a recent interveiw, Jensen Ackles stated "he’s not just a demon, he's a demon with the Mark of Cain, which makes him like über demon." This official statement, plus the fact that Dean was turned the same way as Cain, I think it we should add that Dean is a knight of hell, and equal to Cain. What do you all think? Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 03:37, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Knight of Hell versus Angels

The way Cas managed to grab Deanmon and keep him held down, does it mean that angels can take down Knights of Hell? Cas is not even using his own grace, it's borrowed so he is not a Seraph and even then he was able to hold down Deanmon with the Mark of Cain. So, is Cas just that much stronger than an average angel or is a Knight of Hell weaker than an ordinary angel? What are your thoughts, guys?