Lucifer is Actually the first Angel created by God michael is the second this was stated in the Movie The Prophecy that's how i know that and i'm guessing Supernatural has the same origin 126.96.36.199 23:30, October 29, 2009 (UTC)Smallville944
According to Gabriel in the 'changing channels' episode didnt he say that michael was the older brother to lucifer just as dean is the older brother to sam Yojimbo and diagoro 00:59, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
Yes that is what Gabriel said. That movie is just that; a movie. Please don't use information from something completely different to try and prove something on Supernatural.
According to Gabriel, Michael is the older brother of Lucifer. This proves that Michael was created first (at least in this show). Lucifer in biblical teachings was God's first angel, however in this show Michael was said to be the older brother. This proves that Michael was created before Lucifer because of his age.
Anderson Writer (November 14th 2009)
Is John Winchester God. You see, if Sam is the vessel for Lucifer, and Dean is the vessel for Michael, then surely the father of the two brothers is the father of the two brothers! Jake200493 10:08, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
- No. I mean, I don't know for sure. But I can say with 99.999% accuracy that John is not God. Neither is Sam actually Lucifer, or Dean actually Michael. The Winchester brothers are just vessels. --Effectofthemassvariety 06:59, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
- I meant God's vessel. Can't afford to be precise when your Human Bio teacher is watching you like a hawk making sure you're essay writing :(
- HA! Been there, done that. :) Now that I look at it, I should've seen what you meant. Anyways, I can't say with any certainty that John Winchester is or is not God's vessel. It would be really cool if he was. However, in my personal opinion, I would say no. Personally, and I wrote a blog on this (Twice), I think that Crowley is God. But no one else thinks that. I mean, besides my sister. :/ --Effectofthemassvariety 07:00, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
- Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in, granted, I now have two seasons of info beyond what we had then. I personally doubt God would need a vessel. He is, apparently, all powerful. Death did not require a vessel, and he seems to be somewhat equal with God. He may not be able to create, but if he can kill God, I'd make a case for him. Anyway, God shoud be free to do whatever he pleases. He wrote the rules, the angels have to abide by them. 188.8.131.52 08:08, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
- Death does not need a vessel because he is a Horseman, and The Horsemen can manifest without a vessel while God is not. 184.108.40.206 22:35, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
- GOD don't obey any rules exept for the Natural order i guess and God is the one who created humans but he is not a demon and as we saw chuck he didn't seem like a human in the end the way he disappeared is not like angels so i think that God doesn't need any vessel. and i don't think that john is the vessel becuase if gods plan was to exist on earth he could protect john instead of possess chuck :D20:26, October 6, 2014 (UTC)MXViper (talk)
The answer to your question is simple; John Winchester is not God. For more feedback please leave a message on my talk page.
Anderson Writer (November 17th 2009)
Non Denominational Television Hour
Alright, honestly, the first paragraph REALLY bugs me! I mean, I am a christian, and I do believe in Jesus, but in the Supernatural Universe, they do not address it at all. They never confirm or deny it. So, I am going to delete any sentence that says anything about Jesus. This isn't sunday school, it's a wiki about a television show that talks of angels and demons, never of Jesus.--Effectofthemassvariety 07:06, May 1, 2010 (UTC)
they do speak of Jesus in one episodeFluffyking63 03:44, July 1, 2012 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous! This article is just a jumbles of odd facts that are unrelated to the show. And, so, I am going to take it
upon myself to fix this article. --Effectofthemassvariety 23:43, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
Proof of Chuck Being God
Hi What Proof do we Have that Chuck is God this article just seems to be theories of Chuck being God and bnot actual proof hi is a Prophet Not God and he dissapeared and teleported simply cause his work as a Prophet was finished not because he's God unless i see some actual proof i won't believe that Chuck is God they didn't state that in the finale - Smallville944
- See the "Notes" section for a listing of all evidence, very clear indeed. Also, the writers did say at one point we'd learn who God was by the end of the show, it was blatantly obvious in the end. 220.127.116.11 06:15, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
- True, and to make it clear for the Doubting Thomases out there, consider these things:
- 1) Upon first meeting Chuck, he drops an obvious hint that he could be God by claiming that he's a god of some kind, though it's dismissed by Sam and Dean b/c of how insignificant he seems:
- Chuck: Well, there's only one explanation. Obviously I'm a god.
- 1) Upon first meeting Chuck, he drops an obvious hint that he could be God by claiming that he's a god of some kind, though it's dismissed by Sam and Dean b/c of how insignificant he seems:
- True, and to make it clear for the Doubting Thomases out there, consider these things:
- Sam: You're not a god.
- Chuck: How else do you explain it? I write things and then they come to life. Yeah, no, I'm definitely a god. A cruel, cruel, capricious god. The things I put you through -- The physical beatings alone.
- 2) A Prophet is only supposed to write the words of God as God sends them to him, he's not supposed to actually consider how he wants the story to go. In Swan Song, Chuck is musing about "getting the ending right". Were he not God, he wouldn't have been doing this. God is the one that dictates endings.
- 3) Chuck's final words are that "nothing really ends", and the only person for whom that truly applies is God.
- 4) Chuck is wearing all white in his final scene, which most believe to be God's chosen style. What's more, we see a confidence in him in this final shot that he has never shown before, as though he were a completely different person.
- 5) Most obvious of all, Chuck vanishes into thin air at the end, something no human, Prophet or not, is capable of doing. Chuck passed himself off as a normal guy up to this point, and here he showed he had power nobody had known him to have before. We've already seen one character masquerade as something he wasn't really in Gabriel, one of God's Archangels.
- 6) In the final episode, he thinks Dean is a prostitute named "Miss Magda", and most know the story of Mary Magdalene, the repentant prostitute whom Jesus (God's physical manifestation) was said to have loved more than his own disciples. "Miss Magda" is a clear nod to Mary Magdalene.
- 7) Finally, the writers said some time ago that before the end of Season 5 we would learn who God was. Ergo, somewhere near the end of the season (namely in the finale) God would be revealed to the audience. (http://www.spoilersguide.com/supernatural/supernatural-eric-kripke-interview/)
- I watched the season finale with two friends who love the show as much as me and who are fairly open-minded. Both of them agreed immediately that it was blatantly obvious by the end who God was, even if it wasn't spoon-fed to the audience by putting a name-tag on Chuck saying "Hello, my name is God". There's always going to be anals out there that absolutely won't accept things unless they spell it out word-for-word, but apparently to the vast majority of the fan base, they agree that it was clear that in the end, Chuck was God all along. As for all the ballahooing about Dean's Amulet not glowing in Chuck's presence, we remembered that Joshua said that it would not help to find Him b/c He did not want to be found. God has the power to shield Himself from such things obviously. Lucifer1987 06:35, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
Those are good points however they didn't state he was God so we don't know 100% if it's true
- Actually it is, Kripke stated in the interview God would be revealed in the finale, and he was true to his word. 18.104.22.168 23:30, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think you should be making claims that Chuck is God it's presumptuous to assume so. You should wait like everyone else till season 6 and you find out who Chuck really is before you make a wiki site. 1st thing prophets ascend to heaven when there work is done. Happened to the Jewish prophet Elijah and to Jesus Christ. It could be that Chuck was Jesus or Elijah. They are both prophesied to come before the Apocalypse. If you want to make claims that Chuck is God make a blog like everyone else and don't put it on a Wiki site so to people who believe what ever is on the internet thinks it to be true. I hope the network proves your presumptuous ass wrong!
- Actually, you're the one that's wrong for refusing to admit the obvious and that Kripke himself stated we would learn who God was in the finale, and the only obvious character was Chuck. This is not the place for anals who refuse to admit facts. The fact of the matter is that Kripke as good as confirmed Chuck to be God when he stated God would be revealed in the finale. There are no reports of Prophets ever just vanishing into thin air, so your assumptions about Elijah and/or Jesus have no place here as they do not feature into this story nor did they ever feature into biblical lore to start with since neither was said to have done that. Do not confuse Supernatural with your own preferred religion. Sorry, but you need to step back and accept that Kripke has basically already confirmed this a long time ago. I'd also like to add that this is no place for pompous windbags upset that their views are not shared by as many as they'd like. 22.214.171.124 14:22, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, those trying to disprove that Chuck is God really don't have any genuine basis to do so. No Prophet, not even Jesus, was said to have just up and disappeared into thin air literally. And we have already had one character masquerade as something he really wasn't, Gabriel. Kripke confirms in the previously posted interview from near the middle of the season that God would be revealed in the season finale, Swan Song. Now, the only candidate (an obvious one at that) that fits that bill is Chuck, and 80% of the fan base seems to agree that it was fairly obvious even without Kripke's previous statement. Chuck also drops the hint that he's a god of some kind when we first meet him. There's more evidence for Chuck being God than there is against in my book, and Kripke's statement is as good a confirmation as any. "And yes, God will definitely be appearing, Kripke reveals, probably in the season finale." Lucifer1987 14:32, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
Ever think it could be Cass? Remember Dean asked are you God? Maybe when Cass was killed by Ralph he really did die and wasn't rezed by God but God took his form. Maybe that is what is meant by God would be revealed in the fianle. Supernatural always gives you a twist. Maybe Cass doesn't even know he is God. You can not say facts when there are other facts that can be true just as well. With all the blogs about God being Chuck even if they were going to make Chuck God, they most likely will not just to give that twist ending that Supernatural does so well. Notice how I say most likely? I say this because I don't know the outcome, and neither do you! So like I stated before make a blog until it is stated as a fact by the creator that Chuck is God. You are not the creator of Supernatural and shouldn't be speaking for him. Also as it was stated before God uses like Angles humans as vessels. So you would think that the Vessel would be left on earth like the vessels of the Angels. However, prophets ascend to heaven when their work is done on earth, that could be what happened to Chuck. We don't know either way until the reveal.
- Castiel was already ruled out, by himself, if you'd watched the finale. Sorry man, but this just sounds like a lot of nonsense from somebody who just doesn't want to admit an obvious truth. Kripke confirmed we'd see God in the finale, and the only person that fits that bill is Chuck, very plain and very clear. You seem to conveniently want to avoid that point and try to twist it so that it fits your wish to simply try to disprove Chuck being God, which isn't working. Simply b/c you can't comprehend the ending of Season 5 doesn't mean the rest of us are incapable of understanding what Kripke meant back in November and what was shown in May. Lol, you speak of twists, well if Chuck being God in reality isn't a twist, I don't know what one is. And you have failed to produce even one instance in any kind of lore where a Prophet just up and vanishes into thin air. Your assertions that he "ascended to Heaven after his work was done" have no concrete evidence to support them, as there has never been any instance where a Prophet has made such an exit nor had the power to do that alone. No human being, Prophet or not, has ever had the power to just vanish into thin air. When it all comes down to it, it's Kripke's own words that make such attempts to disprove Chuck's identity as God seem desperate and unfounded. Kripke says the audience will learn who God is in the finale, and we see only one very obvious candidate for that role in the finale, with Kripke dropping unmistakable hints of who it is throughout the episode. And I think that the "creator of Supernatural" spoke loud and clear (you set yourself up for this one), and he said, without a doubt, that God would appear in the finale. Sorry that you can't wrap your head around that, but as someone else said, this is not a place for looneys. Take your nonsense elsewhere if you're unwilling to accept obvious facts in the face of reason. Lucifer1987 16:55, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
I said if you read my post that maybe Cass doesn't know he is God. You know God works in mysterious ways. And I am not saying anything about the facts you have but it has not be confrimed nor denied by the creator and thus you should not be saying yes or no either way. I am not saying chuck is not God nor saying that he is. You can speculate all you want but that is all you can do because no one can say with !00% certianity that Chuck is or isn't. Writers change their minds all the time. He may have said that god would be revealed but he has the right to change his mind doesn't he?
- And how PROBABLE is that???? NOT VERY MUCH AT ALL! Castiel states he's not God, then we take it at face value. We're not going by your theories that have scant chance of being accurate here. If you want to go to SupernaturalWiki and post em there, go right ahead. We don't go by their policies here, as someone else noted. If you don't like that we actually take a stand and recognize facts from the producers and the show itself, then go take your theoretical nonsense there. Simply b/c you can't accept the fact that Kripke confirmed he'd reveal who God was in the finale and that Chuck was the obvious character revealed as such doesn't mean the rest of us are incapable of realizing that. Take your nonsense to the other wiki if you can't accept reality. Kripke as good as confirmed that Chuck is God when he stated that he would reveal God's identity in the finale, and it was very obvious who he was referring to. GET OVER IT! Lucifer1987 16:33, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
- First of all God does not need vessels and Jesus was not a prophet, he was an actual manifestation of God according to Christianity and if not the disappearance out of thin air then his behavior before that is enough proof that he is God as I see it.
- The "white" thing is BS IMO. Lucifer also wore a fully white suit and shoes in "The End". Hell, I myself like white and dress fully in white sometimes and have a fully white suit.
- "No Prophet, not even Jesus, was said to have just up and disappeared into thin air literally" - ...dude, you must not know anything about Christianity, that is EXACTLY what happens to Jesus.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 19:46, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Could I draw your attention to Metatron, specifically his claim that humans that write books become Gods. In a sense this is true, an author is technically the supreme God of the universe he/she creates. I believe this is the idea that the writers were always trying to portray. This, suggests that Kripke is the "God" of the Supernatural universe, in the show, the best equivalent to Kripke is Chuck as he is the author of the Supernatural books. To me, this isn't a coincidence, it all points to Chuck being God. Obviously this is only a speculation, but I just thought I'd shove it out there.126.96.36.199 17:04, October 1, 2013 (UTC)
Is Chuck God?
Following the Season Five finale, there was much debate amongst fans to whether Chuck was in fact God, and whether he had been so all along. While consensus was with Chuck as the Divine being - Many fans started substituting Chuck's name for Gods in expression's such as "Chuck be praised?" and "Thank Chuck" - not all agreed.
Chuck as a writer is the creator of the story of Sam and Dean Winchester in the form of the Supernatural books. He says when confronted with the real Sam and Dean that he "is a god", for all that he puts them through in the books happens in real life. This is explained by Castiel as Chuck being a prophet of God. Castiel says the "Supernatural" Books will become known as the Winchester Gospels.
The metaphor in this episode is of the writer as creator. Chuck's pseudonym is Carver Edlund, a reference to Supernatural writers Jeremy Carver and Ben Edlund. The character is an avatar for Kripke himself Source and is used to comment on the text and process of writing with reference to specific past episodes of the Show. This metaphor would also hold then is God, the creator, was also the writer. We have a trinity here - Chuck, Kripke and God.
In the finale there, is further foreshadowing of Chuck's true identity: When Dean calls Chuck, Chuck answers the phone "Mistress Magda," and we briefly see a newspaper ad for a blonde women in a bikini named "Miss Magda" on Chuck's desk before he puts his glass on it. This may be a reference to Mary Magdalene who Jesus, the physical incarnation of God, healed of demons. She then become a follower of his, and an early Christian leader.
Chuck, after narrating the events that take place, finally appears dressed in white musing on the difficulty of getting endings right. He then disappears - Chuck, it seems, is God.
Fans arguing against Chuck's divinity point primarily to the fact that Dean's Amulet, which Castiel says will "burn hot" in God's presence does not react when Dean and Chuck meet face to face in 4.18 The Monster At The End Of This Book, 4.22 Lucifer Rising, and 5.01 Sympathy For The Devil. However, Joshua tells Sam and Dean in Heaven "Magic amulet or not, you won't be able to find him".
Other arguments include the failure of others to recognise God's true self, including Raphael is the archangel assigned to protect Chuck. In 5.03 Free To Be You And Me, he tells Dean and Castiel that God is "dead" and they are living in a "godless universe."
The answer may never be confirmed, or further information may be revealed in Season 6.
While we may never know the identity of God, which might be best, as it adds the sense of omnipresence to it, the idea that Chuck is God, is over thought, and more likely not true then true.
Chuck I believe is simply a prophet, and his odd disapearance in the finale is more like him being spirited away, Like the Prophet Elijah, from the Old Testemont that was taken to heaven following him completing his job on earth, in a chariot of Fire. Chucks disapearance was less flashy, but I believe it was in the same vien as that.
This is from the SupernaturalWiki site see how they say they can neither confrim nor deny if chuck is god or not? That is the proper way to do it, not your way.
- Newsflash: THIS IS NOT SUPERNATURALWIKI! We're not going to mimic or copy their style nor their ideas, we're a separate entity. You're just a hack for them, trying to get us to go by your policies, and that's not us. You also don't even have the courage to affix your name to all this pointless rambling you've been spewing for the last several days, that says a whole lot about you. Face it, we're not going to have you or your cronies from the other wiki dictate to us what we do here. If you prefer that way, go over there and leave this wiki. We don't need anals like you here trying to shove your anal policies down our throats. If you can't take the hint, TAKE A HIKE!! 188.8.131.52 16:27, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
- The poster directly above me has a point when he states that we don't go stealing material from the other wiki, unlike the other wiki itself. I noticed that the article I wrote about St. Mary's Convent was blatantly copied and pasted onto SupernaturalWiki, and that angers me. There's probably several other instances where that has happened as well. We are not going to go by the policies of SupernaturalWiki nor are we going to mimic their style or take their material as they have done us. And yes, if you are going to post on this wiki, start signing your posts with four "~", it's not looked upon very favorably to simply rant and rave without even signing it. And he does have a point when he says that if you don't like things here, you're free to go to the other wiki, nobody's stopping you. Lucifer1987 16:50, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
On powers and God's nature
As a newcomer, I know my opinion may be a poor fit. I'll try nontheless to make a contribution. Said contribution being, as far as the Supernatural version of God goes:
- Omniscience has not been proven.
- Omnipotence has not been proven.
- Omnibenevolence has been disproven by the only authority save Death that could be considered (i.e. God himself).
- Omnipresence and limitless teleportation have neither been proven nor referenced unduly, either on this site or on the show.
The point is simple enough: all we know about this entity is the say-so of his peer(s) (which only appears to include Death, fittingly enough) and himself. All else if from the mouth of beings who either believe to the exclusion of asking questions (Michael, Joshua), rebel because they don't understand or weren't told why (Lucifer), or are simply following orders because that's the game as is played u(Zachariah). Assuming without proof that this means everything attributed to God by the Judeochristian writ must therefore be true reveals some amount of bias, I should think. One would almost have to be a fundamentalist to assume that all these qualities would permit omnibenevolence, because logic does not permit it.
We do know, however, that Supernatural's God is more powerful than his creations, including Lucifer and Michael. He seems to have some form of "root access" to the universe, meaning he can circumvent a certain portion of its laws. That does not mean he's powerful enough to allow absolute free will while at the same time allowing everyone to be happy all at once for eternity (which would require... yes, omnipotence, aka the power to set aside logic and make several opposing things true at the same time).
Chuck (assuming he's God, which evidence and narration seems to suggest) doesn't have that power. We do see that he can't, for instance, effortlessly change the situation with Lucifer and Michael so that it never happened. We see that he actually expresses remorse. He thinks himself cruel, and why would he not think so? He's powerful enough that he thinks he should have been able to do better than he did.
If we posit, however, that all the other pantheons and the Judeochristian God are fundamentally the same order of beings, then we can begin to talk. God (JC variety) is then an immensely powerful (the most powerful) member of these beings; in fact, he's so powerful his own first-order creations and servants are easily capable of tearing apart a roomful of these lesser-order deities. True, they are by their own admission much reduced from their former status, but even so, Lucifer didn't doubt the outcome for an instant, and neither did Gabriel. At any rate, however, this is a God who manifestly (today, at least) feels empathy for his creations. All of them. Still, undoing the bad parts and changing everything for the better in an instant is beyond his abilities. And so, he uses the Winchesters to fix things as well as he can.
One could hardly fault him for wanting to take a break and assume the persona of Chuck.
-- one incidental fan, 15:55, June 29th, 2010 (GMT +1)
- NEWSFLASH: We only got a limited sighting of God on the show, therefore your over-analysis on his powers appears to be overcompensating at best and wishing merely to have something more to argue about on this page at worst. We didn't see all that Death could do on the show either, are you going to also argue that he doesn't have all the powers he suggested he does? Death basically put God on his own level, one of the few beings that Death didn't find to be "insignificant". And has it ever occurred to you that Chuck was merely feigning ignorance of his powers to avoid detection as God???? Did it ever occur to you that the reason God didn't display all the powers we've heard that he has on the show is because he was trying to avoid being detected on the Earth??? And did it ever occur to you that nearly every "Judeo-Christian" being depicted on this show has simply put been based entirely on their real-life counterparts???? And you assume that God couldn't turn back time and change things, yet we see Gabriel do it multiple times in a row and yet you say that God is stronger than His creations??? Sorry but you're not making any sense, and I think it's time for you to either constructively analyze the article and contribute something of substance rather than criticize for criticism's sake, or move on. Lucifer1987 13:38, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- The source and strength of your hostility baffles me. Why is it overly analytical to point out that the present statements about said powers are derived from thin air, with no support whatsoever given by the show? If you want to prove omniscience and all the rest, why not simply do so, instead of shrieking about me "wishing to argue", when the only stridently argumentative tone here so far has been your own? It is interesting that you immediately jump to ascribe me motives where I have professed none, and I can't fathom why you would do that instead of noting my words and meeting them, which would be the honest thing to do. What I did was to read an interesting page, note some things that I may not have fully agreed with, and then added a discussion note which took me a nontrivial amount of time to write. In other words, I did you the favour of collating my arguments, moderating my tone as I did in order to be as clear and succinct as I could be, and then posting something that you could expand on if you wished, add to if you liked, in the spirit of contribution.
- And so I must ask this: are you willing or even capable of offering me the same courtesy? Why is discussion of what's written - why is the first offering I make in which I dare wonder as to how these qualities would be ascribed to the God in Supernatural - enough to induce white-hot rage? Isn't that... you know... antithetical to the spirit of Wikipedia, and/or basic honesty?
- Then again, we apparently have a radically opposing view of what constitutes substantial contribution. You seem to assert that adding material without sourcing (in other words, padding the canon with non-canon crap) would be a worthier goal than actually discussing what's added. As a manager of a few wikis of my own, I find that notion disturbing and self-defeating.
- Your other arguments are similarly dubious. What would I be "overcompensating" about, precisely? You compare Death's power with God's and attempt to draw a parallel, forgetting that Death has personally spoken about the scope of his abilities while God has not. Furthermore, an omnipotent being would by definition not be constrained by the need to avoid detection, because were he omnipotent... nothing would be beyond his power. Including, of course, hiding and exercising the full use of his abilities.
- Looking at the scare quotes around the words "Judeo-Christian," they're awfully explanatory, especially given your unprovoked hostility. This term (one used by creatures on the show) is a purely scholarly one; you appear to look upon it as some sort of personal insult. Regarding the statement about this version of God being based "entirely" on their real-life counterparts, I will say that this holds no more true than it does for the works of Neil Gaiman, from which Kripke has clearly drawn a ton of inspiration. "Based on" does not mean equivalency. Shall we consider Starbuck in the new Battlestar Galactica reimagining to be a man, as well? After all, she was based on a male character.
- Finally, I assume no such thing. I am, of course, fully aware that Gabriel could "turn back time". I am also aware that, just like in Terminator I, there is no real need to posit that anything was "changed" when Sam and Dean went back, or by Gabriel's actions. There are clearly things you can do to shift the time flow, but obviously, it can't be done willy-nilly. Lucifer himself pointed to this set of events as being more or less set in stone. Even though Sam breaks Lucifer's control at the last minute, that only proves that events can be nudged a bit. It does not prove that they are infinitely mutable.
- However, from your tone and your excessive use of exclamation marks, I predict that you most likely won't read this far into my response. For some reason, you decided to begin screaming when I first posted here, perhaps due to my crack about conflating show canon with scripture as if they were somehow one and the same. I doubt you will inform me of the reason why, though, and I'm honestly not sure you even have one.
- In case I'm wrong, however, I'll bookmark this page. I hope I am. The alternative would be honestly disquieting.
- Björn Paulsen
- Once again, purely over-analytical. My point is you're wasting your time and everybody's time analyzing every word about this one page in particular when there's multiple other pages that really need help. Who honestly cares whether we've seen examples on the show of God's omnibenevolence or what not? Most people the world round associate those traits with Him without question because that's how He's depicted to be in real lore. And the show's version of God is based solely and directly upon that real-life lore of God. Simply because we haven't seen an example of every one of God's powers or abilities on the show doesn't mean He doesn't have them. As I said, Death made clear he had powers beyond what even Lucifer or Dean could imagine and made clear that what he was doing in the Apocalypse were merely parlor tricks. Are you going to start arguing that Death doesn't really have much power beyond what he displayed despite the fact that he himself stated he has them??
- And very typical, you're assuming I'm being "hostile" to you, which is completely baffling to me, because I'm simply making the statement that you're wasting everyone's time, including yours, overanalyzing and reading too deeply into minor details that most the world round associate with God without question. And you want to know why I'm telling you all I am, it's because you're making a nuisance of yourself and wasting time. The "conflating show canon with scripture" issue is ridiculous because the entire show is based upon real-life lore. The story of Lucifer's falling out with God is one of the oldest and most timeless stories in the world, and you try to come here and tell us that we shouldn't mention anything about that real-life lore that the characters are based upon simply because you want us to be identical in lock-step with the other wiki? Sorry, but we're a separate entity and we're not the other wiki, that is why I told you that if you prefer their style, nobody is stopping you from going to their wiki. I'm of a mind that you're someone from their site merely trying to come here and influence our wiki to conform to the other wiki's standards. And if that is the case, then do us all a favor including yourself, and go back to the other wiki where you came from. If you genuinely are not out simply to try to manipulate this wiki to be identical to the other, then do something useful, like building articles or improving those that need it, not criticize and overanalyze and rant on and on relentlessly about stupid things that really have no merit. Every single one of your statements thus far has been dubious, and filled with stupidity in their merit. You make the statement, for example, that God may not be able to turn back time, yet we see a lesser creature beneath him do so repeatedly and it is made clear that He is far more powerful than Gabriel. You don't think through some of the things you let slip out, and in the end, the merit of your statements remains highly questionable, as do your intentions.
- So, with all courtesy, do us all a favor and re-evaluate what you're really here to do. Are you really some person from the other wiki that's here merely to try to turn us into SupernaturalWiki II because we don't go by their standards? Or are you actually here to do some constructive work and help us actually build the wiki in our own way? If this is the case, then quit overanalyzing little things and open your eyes to the bigger picture. We've got articles on this wiki that need serious help with content and pictures, and we don't have time for piddly stuff like this. In other words, we have bigger fish to fry than to sit here and debate the meaning of some descriptive words about God that most the world over automatically associate with Him in any given situation. So here's what I would suggest: start looking for some pages on here that actually need help and start doing something constructive like helping add content or pictures to them. Quit wasting everybody's time on this piddly stuff.
- And one last thing: make up a real account like everybody else and learn to sign your posts with four "~". Lucifer1987 13:41, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
- First point: Which wiki? This is the first Wiki on Supernatural that I've read. The posts above are the first two attempts I've made (overlong as they are) to write on any Supernatural wiki. Reason was that I finished watching the finale, saw the end, started googling, saw the page on God, and liked it enough to comment.
- Point the second: Here, I have to apologize, because I severely misread your use of punctuation and your wording. I thought you strove for sarcasm; obviously you didn't, and it was poor form from me to misread it that way. I am not from The Other Wiki, whichever that would be. I guess I could have been, and there is no proof to this effect, but primarily I haven't simply due to a lack of time - I am active here only, on my own wikis, and on Stardestroyer.net. Accusing me of shenanigans pertaining to identity is a bit amusing (given that I had already given my real name, as I tend to do by habit nowadays, and you have not). You couldn't have known that, of course. Still, wasn't the problem with that wiki that they posted theories specious theories as fact, such as the idea that Castiel would be God (that seemed to be what you guys were arguing higher up on the page)? Why would I be part of a page that if anything seems to care even less about accuracy than this one?
- And one last thing: make up a real account like everybody else and learn to sign your posts with four "~". Lucifer1987 13:41, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Which leads me to the third point - I don't think what I wrote would contribute to your wiki, nor help it be built "your way". I understand what you're trying to do now, and I respect it. But that needs unity of purpose even - especially! on wikis. I don't think I would be the best help you can get; I'd be the guy in the corner referring to numbers of the faithful and who would reasonably associate what with which god (/God), etc. Put even more simply, I'm probably not an asset at this time, or any other.
- However, while I am grateful for you specifying what you refer to, your assertion that I'm stupid is... well, anyone is free to hold whatever opinions they like. Perhaps "[e]very single one of [my] statements thus far" actually have been "dubious, and filled with stupidity in their merit", but you have failed so far to prove why (also managing to misuse the word "merit," which semantically muddles the sentence). Indeed, in the very next sentence, you show that you simply don't comprehend my argument in the first place: that if we see creature X manipulate time, and we know creature Y is more powerful, you cannot declare that creature Y therefore must have no limits in this regard. That is not hyperbole: it is what your equation demands, and it is on those grounds you apparently base your opinion on my intelligence. Points for audacity, I suppose.
- But you then go around questioning my "intentions" as if this were some sort of hostile takeover, and I am again bemused. "Intentions" toward what? A noncommercial wiki? It's very nice, and you have content, and that is good. What else would there be to it? Why else, to be frank, would I bother to hold any intentions - so as to annex it in the Dark Lord's name? In order to suborn it beneath the crushing gears of My Legions Innumerable? Does my very name portend Dread? :D
- So no, not really. Your clarifications are appreciated, and your goal with this Wiki (which I had misunderstood) I now get and fully respect. However, you do not really seem to understand how to apply either logic or reason, and your tendency to employ ad hominems instead of actually answering questions is slowly growing tiresome.
- /Björn Paulsen (aka Eleas on bbs.stardestroyer.net - if you ever visit, you'll probably understand why I'm such a hardass)
- and i say you're in the wrong place for all the logic/theory bs man. all that jargon you just rattled off above doesn't make a lick of sense in laments terms. i agree you're way too analytical and hard-nosed about some of the stuff you been goin on about. 184.108.40.206 19:39, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
- /Björn Paulsen (aka Eleas on bbs.stardestroyer.net - if you ever visit, you'll probably understand why I'm such a hardass)
- I couldn't have said it better myself. Said user relies WAY too much on overanalyzing and confusing those whom he speaks to. Most would think your theories on "logic and reason" are "out there" my friend, we're not in a classroom learning logic, we're here to build a wiki. And I can understand logic and reason just fine and apply them just fine, while I disagree with your assertions to the contrary. Rather I think you have an overinflated sense of your grasp of such things and you think that by throwing around a lot of scientific terms that it is going to impress everyone while in reality you are merely confusing them and making yourself look ridiculous. And I'm afraid that most would agree with me when I say that it is you that is "growing tiresome" here, with your pointless arguing and laughable attempts to try to impress with a bunch of what I quite frankly would call bull****. And as for names, I have an actual account here and have developed a name where people can actually communicate on this site with me. What do you have? Oh that's right, you still have no signature here, so I would say it is you that still hasn't identified yourself properly, b/c you could make up any bull**** name claiming it's your real name but unless you actually have an account name and a signature that people can communicate with, that smacks of cowardice to me. At least I and everyone else here aren't afraid to set up pages of our own. Lucifer1987 19:44, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Björn? Forgive me for prying, but are you, perhaps, Swedish or Scandinavian? No offence if offended, but I have just never heard of a non-Scandinavian with that name before. At any rate, I apologize for my highly likely grammar mistakes and typos; I'm still working on it.
- About your arguements, I find yours very easy to read and understand. I do not think you are overanalyzing things, ever since I read the "the making of a movie" book and our class got a visit from a movie-maker from Oslo to teach us about movie-making and symbolism, I see hints and symbols everywhere, and I do believe that the creators and directors had most things planned out very well. As such, I can also understand what you mean that many points of Supernatural-God's powers are not prooven and only assumed because of his underlings' powers. One thing I hope I may argue against, however: Telerportation, or some kind of it, was prooven at the end of the final, as we see Chuck disappear. this does not equal ominipresence, as you have said, but I'm being picky and noted it anyway, I apologize if I'm mistaken. however, I agree in most of your statements. While I must admit myself guilty of taking highly likely non-canon for canon in my own wiki, I like to think that I make sure to add in words such as "it is likely", "assumed", etc., in order to avoid people think it is actually canon, but rather just non-canon that is highly likely canon. At the very least, this page should add in "Speculated powers" instead of "Powers", but I am not one to judge.
- Also, to Lucifer1987: I have admired your previous arguements at this talk-page, as well as other topics such as the pagan gods and more. But in this subject, all I can see is a lot of immaturity that cannot accept the points that Björn Paulsen (even if this is not his real name, if he wishes to be referred to as such, I will respect it) pointed out. They make good arguements, and if this wiki should be as canon as possible, the best way is to discuss thigns such as these properly, instead of going against it just by reading the first paragraph. I admot I was too a little doutful at first, but that was more because of my bad experrience with anonymous editors than his arguemments; as soon as I read his first, I admit I agree with most of what he is saying. please consider what he is writing and respect that he has used time to come up with good arguements and actully act like a true gentleman about the subject, respecting your views and not being aggressive toward your bad attitude to him. At the very least, if nobody here can come with an answer that satisfy everyone, I suggest asking the attention of the admin. and have him/her come to a conclusion for the wiki. We all are allowed to have our own opinions, but that does not mean they are the opinions for the wiki.
- Penamesolen 22:07, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Penamesolen. I'll keep this brief, mostly because whatever other things were said, I'm still a guest here. Guests should contribute, and while I argue I'm not contributing to Lucifer1987's wiki, and that's just how things are. But you asked a few questions, and I'll try to answer them. (From the discussion I got the assumption this was Lucifer1987's own wiki - if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me).
- Firstly, yeah, I'm a Swede (resident of Malmö). The question isn't a bother to me, really, so don't worry about that. I actually think it's a much greater hassle to have different nicknames in the long run. From my brief stint in Germany, I was however shocked to realize that there are people there called Björn as well. It doesn't mean anything, far as I can tell (Björn means "bear" in Swedish), but Germans consider it a (fairly unusual) given name nontheless, it seems.
- Secondly, I'm fond of the approach you mention of adding a qualifier (i.e. to note that this is likely, or this is what you infer) because that way it's not stated as Law. But it's not my call. Edit: Also, yeah, you're right - I slipped up on the teleportation bit. Chuck can clearly teleport, contrary to what I said. He can also shift his appearance (or else, he's absurdly good at dressing himself in a hurry).
- Thirdly, thanks for arguing in my favor. I will say in retrospect that I should have worded the part about "bias" differently. I was sloppy there, and it became rather more insulting than I had wanted it. In fact, it crossed a line, and I would have apologised if I thought the response was proportionate or justified in any sense.
- Anyway, I'm not staying. Your questions deserved answers, but I'm not going to stick around; if I do, the argument will never end. And since I liked most of the original God article, what kind of gratitude would I show by turning its discussion page into a trainwreck? :) So I think it's better that I leave, and people here can go on with business as usual.
- Best regards,
- Björn Paulsen // Eleas (easily found with Google, aside from a few false positives)
Actually I tend to agree with Lucifer on this one, this Bjorn and sorry but you too paulenson have failed to really show much merit in this case to me. Really why has so much time been wasted arguing such petty stuff as this? 220.127.116.11 23:33, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks to whomever the previous poster was for defending sense. I disagree with the pointless arguments Bjorn or whoever he is makes, and I see no merit to his arguments, contrary to Paulensen's take on things. Granted, I'm sure Bjorn has good intentions, however confusing or unclear they may be. And no, this is not my wiki or any one person's wiki, it belongs to the community as a whole Bjorn, and the community should be able to shape it as they like. Lucifer1987 03:49, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
This is the reason talk pages, bulletin boards and the like are so frustrating to read. Anyone who has good command of the language, and the ability to argue his or her point logically and politely, is almost always shouted down, and they are usually too polite to descend to the level of their opponents. I'm literally staggered by the hostility of the initial response to what I thought was an interesting point. Especially considering you are usually much more adept at arguing your points.
I have so many things I want to say, so many ways I would like to attempt to convince you that perhaps, if you take a step back and think about them, might be valid. But I have the sad feeling that any attempt at all to argue something contrary to your strongly-held beliefs would be futile.
Don't get me wrong - there's something to be said for the kind of conviction you hold for your opinions and beliefs. It is admirable. But it is even more admirable to consider that sometimes you may be wrong.
Politeness costs nothing. Incoherent rants cost you readers. I hope some day you understand that that kind of overly-aggressive behaviour alienates precisely the kind of people you need to make a good wiki.
And no, I am not from The Other Wiki. I generally prefer this one. Which is why I was so disappointed when I saw this talk page.
Oh well. You've lost one reader in me, but I don't imagine that will worry you too much. I wish you all good luck.
I took the liberty of deleting the lines about god being omnibenevolent since there isnt the slightest hint of that in the series. On the contrary it took Castiel about 2 seconds as the new god to turn to violence and threats.
Of course a page about God will confuse scriptual interpretations and religious beliefs with the actual canon of the fictional universe, but that particular line stems entirely from Jesus preaching a purely benevolent god.
And no, i dont want to get into a larger discussion.
Hugomanen 23:07, July 16, 2011 (UTC)
Uriel is the Lord
I'm only going by a number of things, but by the general basis that the Lord would have to be black, and He created the first humans, such as Adam and Seth, who were black. Just like Raphael, Uriel only possess black folks, and due to his general insistence that there is no God, it would seem to fit the picture: To quote Monty Python, "Only the true Saviour denies his divinity!"
Uriel killing angels could be seen as the Lord's wrath - Remember Joshua, "He'll be home soon, and you know how He is with the whole wrath thing." What if Uriel, as the Lord, wasn't seeking to free Lucifer so he could destroy mankind, but so Lucifer could versus the Lord in the climactic battle. Joshua also says the Lord is on Earth. Uriel is actually only seen on Earth. Joshua, being an angel who uses a black man as a manifestation, could also be seen as one reason why the Lord would only speak to Joshua. Uriel could also, in a dark way, be described as a "gardener" as he clips away at rebellious angels like weeds. Castiel describes Uriel as a specialist, meaning he specializes in demolition, which is precisely what the Lord shows a lot in the Old Testament.
But then, you say, he was killed by Anna, so doesn't that not make him the Lord?
Not at all. Remember how Christ (seen by some as the Lord incarnate) sacrificed himself and then returned for a while. Uriel's death could be seen as his sacrifice for when he truly returns at the End. (DarkIngRidley 20:56, December 16, 2011 (UTC))
SCREWED UP THE PAGE!
im sorry everyone, but i screwed up the God page. I just added a picture of chuck and was about to add an old painting of God to the description but somehow i deleted the whole description! if anyone could replace it i would be in your debt
There's a very small error on the "Powers and Abilities" section, it says "Gos". I tried to fix it but the page is protected. 18.104.22.168 04:31, May 22, 2012 (UTC)
ONE THING NO ONE SAW WAS THAT GOD IS NOT ALL POWERFUL AS DEATH SAYS HE WILL KILL GOD ONE DAY!!!!! SO WHY IS IT SAID IN THE BIO HE IS IMMORTAL THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.
I agree with that God isn't immortal as far as we know. Neither is he 100% omniscient as he does not know whether he or Death is older.
I wanna give some thoughts on the "God is immortal makes no sense thing" or the "God isn't immortal as far as we know" because I actually think that's wrong. God is immortal, as immortality seems to imply an ageless quality not an unkillable quality. Vampires are considered Immortal, yet they can be killed by beheading. Leviathans are considered Immortal, yet they can be killed by being eaten or bibbing, and other various means. So I believe God in the Supernatural universe is immortal, at least immortal in the same sense as Vampires in the Supernatural universe are immortal. Sense, as was pointed out, Death does claim he will one day reap God. 22.214.171.124 04:20, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Since Death said that leviathans were God's first creations, shouldn't they be added into the "Family" section as God's children as well (like angels and humans are)? Thank ye kindly for your time. ;)
- Maybe, but the Levis never call him father, whereas Angels do, and even humans, Christians, call him Heavenly Father. So yes, he did create them, but... You know what, you're right, they should be credited. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:44 PM, June 30th 2012
- sorry but i don't think that leviathans are the FIRST CREATION I think they are the first beastsMXViper (talk) 20:54, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
Omniscience and Immortality.
As far as we know, God isn't truly omniscient, seeing as he didn't know whether he was older than Death or not. Neither were able to remember. As for God's immortality, this is something that only Death possesses. According to Death he will reap God and nothing lasts forever other than himself. Both of these exceptions should be added because it shows incredible bias towards real lore.L4D2 Ellis 00:49, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Fact is, Death knows diddlysquat compared to God, seriously. As he's been evidently wrong on at least one occasion. So who's to say everything else that exits his mouth is factual. Death's just an almost All-powerful senseless old Reaper. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:24 PM July 19th 2012
- Supernatural takes place in another universe and, as such, any Supernatural lore must be kept seperate for the real world mythology. The religions of Supernatural must be treated as entirely new religions. In the Supernatural universe, Death states that he will reap God. Therefore, until such a time when he is proven wrong, we must assume God is not immortal. As for the omniscience, it is never stated God is omniscience so until such a time where it is stated that God is all-knowing, it must assumed that he is not. 126.96.36.199 15:44, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
- So according to you, just because Death was wrong on one occasion it automatically means that we should never ever trust his words again? That posts of yours makes you sound like an incredibly biased person who seems to hate Death. L4D2 Ellis 03:52, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, and you sound like one who's obsessed with Death's so-called power. No, I like him, he's powerful, more so than Leviathan, Angels, and even Archangels. So, of course, he's cool. He's just not as smart as God. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:50 PM, July 20th 2012
- You like him? Could've fooled me with "senseless old reaper". Besides Death was wrong on a minor thing that he could care less about. I'd rather take the word of a Horseman who has co-existed with God than just senseless speculation. No one knows whether or not God can kill him especially after he said, "Nothing lasts forever. Well I do." You also basically stated that you tossed every bit of credibility Death had just because he had a minor thing wrong.L4D2 Ellis 23:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
- I was berating his intelligence not power. He's insanely powerful, just no credibly knowledgeable. Inept little Reaper. God (Chuck) was never wrong on any occasion. You, sir, can't argue that. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:00 PM, July 20th 2012
- Calling him a "little reaper" and "senseless old reaper" sounds like you're also berating his power as well. So he was wrong on something minor automatically trumps everything that he was right about? And what about Chuck saying that the Supernatural books will continue to be published? Seasons 6 and 7 happened after Chuck disappeared and he is the only writer as he's a prophet. L4D2 Ellis 01:20, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- No, Cas said they'd eventually be known as The Winchester Gospel. And either he was wrong or give it time. Oh, and they could've had something to do with the Apocalypse, being titled the Gospels, and since it was adverted, maybe they were never re-named. See, you couldn't provide an instance where Chuck (the Heavenly Father) was wrong. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:43 PM, July 20th 2012
- Calling him a "little reaper" and "senseless old reaper" sounds like you're also berating his power as well. So he was wrong on something minor automatically trumps everything that he was right about? And what about Chuck saying that the Supernatural books will continue to be published? Seasons 6 and 7 happened after Chuck disappeared and he is the only writer as he's a prophet. L4D2 Ellis 01:20, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- And if fans wanted more? They would want to know what happens with Sam by the end of the Swan Song book. So the books would stop publishing when the writer is gone.L4D2 Ellis 01:56, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
In this argument, I agree with 188.8.131.52. I'm feeling this argument is becoming less and less about working out and factually saying Supernatural's mythos (which, as you should know, have been proven different from real lore several times), and more and more about real-life theological arguing. This is the Supernatural universe's version of God were talking about, not what God is like in real-life; so this wiki should wait until Death's claim that God can be killed by him is proven wrong before they state anyway, in complete contradiction to this piece of onscreen canonical evidence, that the Supernatural God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient and far superior to Death. TroopDude (talk) 10:51, August 19, 2014 (UTC)
This is another of those moments when I have the urge to point some things out, first the use of immortality doesn't mean never dying. As seen with vampires on this very wiki "Immortality - Vampires can potentially live forever. They can't grow old and don't acquire conventional diseases that affect humans." This would seem to indicate that God, despite deaths claim that he will reap him one day, is in fact Immortal.
Second, unless Death does reap God(which means God could choose to allow death to reap them or could mean death would eventually kill God, or any other means of death), it seems he could potentially live forever. God doesn't appear to "grow old" in the conventional sense or "acquire conventional diseases" as humans do. 184.108.40.206 04:33, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
How Old is God
In Season 5 episode 19 "Hammer of the Gods" diddn't Kalli mention to Gabriel that "your father isn't the only God" and "We were here first"?
This is very interesting as in season 7 episode 12 "Time after time" it was mentioned that Chronos, the god of time, was at one point much more powerful, but they faded because he was not being worshipped as much, as in worship= power for gods?
This also seems to be the case with season 3 episode 8 "a very supernatural christmas" with those pagan gods claiming they were greatly worshipped before "this Jesus fellow appeared" and also alluded to in season 5 episode 5 "fallen Idols" with the Leshii pagan god.
All of this seems to imply that before Christianity and the teachings of Jesus took hold across the world, the Pagan dieties were somewhat more powerfull and perhaps God was not as powerful, and also questions Gods age, and his position as 'Creator', so maybe only since Christianity gained grat popularity that he gained his current power level through worship, as it is never stated were the pagan dieties came from, including Eve, who claims she once personally knew God.
Also Death has alluded to life on other planets on several occasions, and God seems to of only created the earth, so the Origin of Gods in General is very interesting, but I think the show has produced enough Evidence to suggest that God is not the Supreme creator and may only be the Most powerful at the moment.
- All that meant is that Kali's and the other's religions were practiced and utilized before his, but she wasn't literally there first, as God is older than the beginning of time itself. Well, Jesus, as a part of the Trinity, is theoretically older than them, but his birth on Earth happened after the pagans. Um, God's power is not measured or dependent on his praise, his power is his own. Well, actually, both Dean and Gabriel allude to life on other planets. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:13 PM, August 14th 2012
- I am not sure, Castiel claimed that the celestial scribe metatron was writing things down from the start of creation, which implies everything in the universal dimension ( in the french mistake, that other reality points towards there being no higher power while also, it obviously was our true reality outside the show, because certain celebs are still alive, but that is confusing) but how could metatron do that without being created before gods other creations?
- and you are right, he is older than time it's self which makes Time also seem very old, so if you noticed, when they killed Chronos, the god of time, time still continued? i think he was only an entity of time instead of being the foundation concept of actual time, were as Real time would be as old as Death, Space, Light and Darkness.
- I certainly think that Eve and Pagan gods do not show any fear or admiration to god, as i doubt and there is no evidence to suggest that God created the Pegans or Eve but something must of.
- As for Death, he is the oldest horseman, i would love to know if the other horsemen are in fact his siblings, but much younger but still un-killable, but if he cannot remember who older between himself and god, it implies that they indeed have age, which means they came from something, perhaps the real omnipotant force above all others, and God is not that force, he is Just supremely the most powerful force shown.
- I'm sure if he was binded and forced to give the answers, death would reveal his relationship with his 'Siblings' who he never bothers to mention, aswell as Eves personal knowing of God, and were the pagans, himself and god originate, thinking way too deep perhaps, but it opens new doors in the aeging series
- 220.127.116.11 22:13, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Your over complicating the matter, God is the real deal, he is the creator the starter, his childeren the angels predate man, they always talk about watching them slowly evolve, therefore how could he require human belief to fuel him, if there were no humans before him? Or angels for that matter? Or Leviathans.
- All Kali and the other pagan gods are, are simply a bunch of powerful monsters who have set themselves up as gods on this planet, purely so they could be provided with meals without needing to hunt for them, thats all they are, strong monsters, there not gods, gods can't die.
- As for Metaron, we don't know which creation Metaron was writing during, angels? Man? Earth?, I'm guessing if he's the lords personal scribe, he's probably one of the oldest angels, perhaphs he was the first one created after the archangels.
- As for them showing no fear, all they are is arrogant, I mean look at Kali, she thought she could take anything, and yet with her legion of deities behind her, she couldn't even harm Lucifer, one of gods creations, how can you seriously think God is simply another false god? All the evidence on the show, shows he's the real thing.
- And one more thing, about this life on other planets, who says he created just earth? He created everything, and everything, so sure Christanity didn't reach us till the first century, its shown in the show, he doesn't care if you believe in him or not, he's not that sort of god, as long as your good, you go to heaven when you die, he only cares if your good.
- I mean imperiexseed, pointed all this out above, you should listen to him, they don't just appoint anyone admin.
- Well that admin, and you fail to realise that if he created everything, he must of created Death, which Death certainly would of pointed out when describing the Leviathans, and God would of Created the one thing that will some day reap him.
- And if the pagans are just powerful monsters, who made them? i doubt it was Eve, the mother of all monsters as it would of been mentioned. So something else created death and probably Eve and the pagan 'monsters' as you put it.
- So once again unless God made Death, he is not the all creator, he is just so powerful nothing else that has been shown is stronger, like why must death be Death, were did he get his Ring, and im sure if he chose to he could ignore gods Natural order, which the boys have scewed over regardless of the outcomes.
- Raphael Seemed to believe God to be dead and we are living in a God-less universe, as to say, as far as his vast wisdom is concerned, the universe does not require gods existance.
- Death, although never confirmed, seems to of made his reapers like his answer to god's angels, and can even force an eclipse and unlike god, has bothered to communicate with the 'bacteria'.
- If God made everything, why is he only on Earth, and everything take place in the states ( i know the shows budget prevents anything happening outside the show and makes everything have an american vessal) but it is all centred around earth, which Death states is just "one planet in one galaxy that is barley out of it's dipers" pointing towards earths total primitivness among other planets and galaxies, so did god just forget about the other billion planets?
- somehow it seems Death has seen them all and was created to keep order for whatever created it all.
- 18.104.22.168 23:41, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
- Also God cannot of Made Eve or Death for sure, as he created Leviathans first, while Death was already present and created Archangels and the angel race afterward, with Eve bieng older than angels, placing at least as old as the Leviathans, if god created purgatory to house the Leviathans, How did eve end up in there directing her childrens souls to it?
- then theres the Fairies and there Realm, and a claimed king callled Oberon, whom i bt will play as a villain later, the leprechaun scoffed at Angels and claimed to have ability to access lucifers cage without much trouble claiming it to be 'Real' magic, as if to say heavens power is not as potent as the fairy realm, so did God create that race aswell?
- all highly doubtfull, plus remember the season 7 premier, God-Cass threatend to kill Death and Death replied with 'you are not A god'? obviously he was not referring to the pagans but possibly that God may be able to at least harm him and that 'A God' points towards other Gods as powerful as God, otherwise he would of omitted the 'A' and said 'you are not GOD'.
- one last note, deaths Sythe can likley kill anything, even god, as it burned dean preventing a possible kill on death, so is likley stronger than the colt, although i doubt Death requires his Sythe or ring to reap.
- Also i wonder who made deans amulet?
- can anyone reason any of this, hopefully all, especially God creating all (Death and Eve included)
- 22.214.171.124 00:40, August 15, 2012 (UTC)
- "So something else created death and probably Eve and the pagan 'monsters' as you put it." and "Also God cannot of Made Eve..." - Just wanted to point something out, in the season 7 episode There will be Blood where Edgar(the Leviathan) is speaking with the Alpha vampire about the arrangement The Aplha Vampire made with Dick Roman, the exchange goes like this I think. Well, the relevent part for what I am talking about does:
- Alpha Vamp: We come from you.
- Edgar: Barely.
- Alpha Vamp: I am the son of Eve!
- Edgar: A pathetic mutt. Hardly one of us. I knew Eve, and honestly... your mommy was a whore.
- This seems to indicate that Eve was a Leviathan, just with the ability to create other "monsters" of another kind. This means the God of the Spernatural Universe actually did make Eve, in my opinion. Since we know God created the Leviathans and Eve appears to have been a Leviathan. 126.96.36.199 05:11, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Another hint to chuck being god, in Swan Song Chucks says Becky left him because he respected her too much.
Okay maybe he didn't create everything, in the unvierse, but he did create the universe that everything exists in, who knows who made Eve or the pagan gods? Maybe Chaos, if they haven't scrapped that idea, (personally I hope they have,) as for the horsemen, no one created them, there naturally occuring events, no one creates Death, War, Famine or Pestilence, there all caused by lack, Famine is lack of food, War is lack of goodwill and peacefulness, Pestilence is lack of Hygine, and Death is lack of life, as such no techniqually created them they just came into existance, down to the lack.
I didn't mean that the gods were literally monsters, as in Eve's childeren, I simply ment there not real gods, there false gods, look at christain, jewish or islamic lore (thats what this show is based on) they all say that there not really gods, just simply powerful beings who pretend to be gods.
As for Castiel killing Death, that was pure arrogance, much like Lucifer thinking he could over throw God, he had been sitting in the powerful posions so long, that he thought he could take on anything, but Death took him down a peg, I mean he didn't even look bothered by his threat, and could have killed him with at touch, much like we would swat a bug.
Also Death said, "He was no God" not your "not a god," rewatch the seen if you don't belive me, just put Castiel vs Death into youtube. As to who made the rings, I betting the horsemen did, same for the scythe, and it pobably could kill death, but as saw with dean's attempt, you couldn't get close enough, because it was death who caused it to heat up, so Dean dropped it.
As for the rest, your getting off topic, so he didn't create everything? That doesn't mean he isn't all powerful, it just means that there are others who can create things to. Any more questions? General MGD 109 (talk) 20:02, August 15, 2012 (UTC)
nope you have achnowleged my point that god is not the all creaor in supreme sense, as he simply created the petry dish, but i wonder if certain things were around before he made the universe like pre big bang, chaos is a good idea, but in many different contexts, chaos is, although the foundation gods progenitar, is not really sentient, it's more the nothingness that the first were spawned from, or a mixture of everything, as such perhaps god was the foundation that shaped the chaos in his natural order, although choas exists in my mind as the fabric that holds existance togeather, but bringing it in the series would be epic, kinda like bringing in gaia, or how about tartarus? promordial hell, pain and suffering, okay im going off topic, but your chaos idea is intruiging.
hmmm what if all pagans, god, eve are amouts of chaos energy, in that god holds 90% of it and all the others including eve hold the rest, explaining gods huge powers.
But also, how could death of existed before anything that was created had already died naturally? perhaps the by product and oppisite of what god is.
188.8.131.52 04:07, August 16, 2012 (UTC)
As for Death, I think it works on the old belief that life and death are like Yin and Yang and both are needed for there to be balance, or else as well as Death he embodies destruction which has been around since the first astoroids collided.
As for the Pagans, I doubt theres any conection between the two, the pagans get there power by devouring humans (although some don't seem to need it,) and are relitivly weak in comparison, I mean most demons are stronger than some gods, I stand by my belief that there simply a race of powerful monsters who set themselfs up as gods so they don't need to hunt for there food. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:04, August 16, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, Demons, much like Angels, are stronger than the lower deities, such as pagans. Yin and Yang would be a good comparison for God and Death, but the fact of the matter is, God himself doesn't need anything else to exist/function; his powers and nature isn't dependent on his praise or his surroundings, as he existed within nothingness without strain. And neither does Death apparently, as he noted in Appointment In Samarra that even when life ceases, he will exist. Wait, General MGD 109, you think that God isn't supreme? Wow. Ok, well you're wrong. Maybe God didn't create every planet within the Universe, but he is the strongest being ever. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:14 PM, August 16th 2012
- Nope I not saying he isn't supreme, I'm just saying he didn't create everything in the universe, simply the universe (and most things), if you mean the yin and yang bit, I was only refering to death, Gods way higher than him, I mean basic logic tells you he is, Death needs life to exist (the concepts not the beings) but Life doesn't need Death to exist. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:22, August 16, 2012 (UTC)
- oh, but actually, Death can live without life. As per his quote in episode Appointment in Samarra, in which he said, "Nothing lasts forever, well I do". Which clearly implicate that even after everything's destroyed, he will exist. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:30 PM, August 16th 2012
- I think God created the universe and lead the foundation toward everything else regardless, if he made or indirectly through his other creations. Example, he didn't create demons, but one of his creations Lucifer did. This is why the pagan deities are unique. As they aren't suppose to be of Judeo-Christian and aren't in any relation to the one true god. As for things separating them God appears like in real life not requiring anything from His followers worship or tributes, the pagans or majority of them need tributes not worship as if worship was required, than Chronos could have only stole time from the ones that worshipped him by logic. The pagan religions used numerous types of rituals to invoke magic and affect the world. It for this that Judeo-Christian depending on the time and where have called pagan gods Demons, Spirits, False gods, even monsters. But in the series they are not demons, spirits minus like the vanir or monsters like Eve's creations.: The Twilight of Your Despair 00:35, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
- P.S. The only confirmed facts about deities or the pagans are this. Before, season 7 with the added part of tributes or feeding as Sam said the gods didn't require anything from it's worshippers that was Eric Kriple's way of not insulting the other religions. As he made angels so powerful. (It was Sera's idea that tributes or taking humans in some ritualistic way could increase powers, but worship had nothing to do with it.) The last thing is on average the deities are stronger than humans, monsters and demons, but this seems5 to be a case by case thing.: The Twilight of Your Despair 00:35, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Nice to see a discussion, but seriously, the leprechaun alluded to Avalon as having it's own devil.
- if in the french mistake, that alternate reality was not made by god amd was made by the big band (the science beats God universe) then perhaps the fairies have thier own creator, own devil, they seem to have knowlege of crossing the dimensions of Earth, Avalon and Lucifers Cage with ease, and then theres Oberon who, if real, i imagine is very powerful, as the faries exibit powers unseen before and angels, and monsters have not mentioned them, and there is no sure way to kill them, i do not think God created Avalon, or the Omniverse, only our reality.
- 184.108.40.206 02:13, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Remove Chuck's picture.
Yes I know all of the Kripke confirmed Chuck being God thing and it saying so in Rob Benedict's script, but sometime afterwards the writers backtracked and said that Chuck disappearing has been left open to interpretation. Which would mean that it's effectively speculation that Chuck is God and no longer canon.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:38, October 21, 2012 (UTC)
Voice of God?
It says in the article that in Season 7 when Cas kills the pastor in the church, it is implied he hears the voice of god (because he looks at a picture of Jesus in the window). I've always thought the obvious implication is that is the voice(s) of the Leviathans, no? I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that voice is heard more than once. And with it never otherwise being addressed, theres no reason to believe it was God.Iowa Contact (talk) 22:39, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
I just rewatched that scene a few times on Youtube and I honestly can not tell whether it would be God or the Leviathans who spoke based on the voice alone. But you are correct, that voice was indeed heard more than once. From what scenes I was able to find on Youtube, Castiel heard it at least two more times, before he blacked out at the campaign office and after the massacre happened respectively. Seeing as Death later stated Cas only had control of the Leviathans at the moment, I am inclined to believe it was their voice and were speaking to Castiel as he gradually lost control over the course of "Meet the New Boss". 220.127.116.11 21:30, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed this has started to become an edit war recently, so could the admins clear this up? The issue is using capitalization on 'He', 'Him', and 'His' when referring to THE God. As much as it is grammatically acceptable to capitalize 'G' even at the middle of the sentence, it is also acceptable to use the capitalized forms of 'he', 'him' and 'his'. The only reason other people don't do this is because they have a different faith or are nonbelievers. Normally, being neutral (not capitalizing) is okay, but seeing as this series borrows much from Christian mythos, it isn't a stretch to use the capitalized forms (given that we also have a lot of deities in the show). So admins, could you reach a consensus on how we will deal with this? FTWinchester (talk) 01:21, November 11, 2012 (UTC)
The unnecessity for capitalization on "He", "Him", and "His" when referring to God lies in the fact that it is generally incorrect grammar. As the Christianity seen in Supernatural is fictionalized, any grammar or lore from the genuine article should have no influence on the wiki unless established as such in the series. In addition, not all users are Christian, so editing overall should remain neutral otherwise those who are would be inadvertantly forcing their religious preferences onto how the wiki is edited. 18.104.22.168 02:50, November 11, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I understand your point. That is why I tried explaining both sides instead of being a partisan. Still, the admins have the last call on this. I'm getting tired of the cycle, so let us try to reach a consensus first so everyone knows which rule to follow. FTWinchester (talk) 03:00, November 11, 2012 (UTC)
Does the religious bias annoy anyone else?
It's like the neutrality that one would expect from a wiki article is nonexistent. See, there's a difference between having a personal belief but respecting neutrality and the same time, and having a personal belief that you try to shoehorn in at every opportunity. It seems like this article does a lot more of the latter. For example, take the "Chuck is God" debate. I personally believe that he was God, but if I were writing an article about it, I would say that it was left ambiguous, and then go into the details the support both sides. What I wouldn't do is plaster Chuck's face in the Omnipotence article and claim that he's an example of an omnipotent being "albeit disguised at the time," even though I support the idea that he was. Why? Because that's my personal, subjective belief, which may not apply to everyone. But more to the point, while I understand that there are people who love and have full faith in God in real life (which is fine), that doesn't mean that we should go automatically ascribing every Biblical detail about the real concept of God onto a fictional rendition of him by default. Like omnipresence. Not even once was such an ability described to be within SPN!God's power. The Bible claims that God is omnipresent, yes, but we're not dealing with the Bible. In fact, the real Bible has very little bearing on the Supernatural canon, as Castiel pointed out in "My Bloody Valentine." That much is evident just by how much Biblical mythology is ignored by the show in favor of a good story. Purgatory isn't mentioned in the Bible, and Leviathan is a singular entity; not a race of ferocious, primordial omnivores composed of black oil that had to be sealed away. There is no "arcane version of Revelation" that says "and he bloodied death under the newborn sky; sweet to taste, but bitter once devoured." The Antichrist isn't the son of Lucifer or a demon or even an Apocalyptic entity at all; it's people who are against Christ. Hell, the show's Lucifer mythology stems from Islam, not Christianity. If we were to give every other article the same kind of biased treatment that this one gets, then the Pagan deities article would mention that Kali can create and destroy universes and Azazel would be classified as a fallen angel. SPN!God simply is not equivalent to the Bible's God. SPN!God is a very old, very powerful entity that has existed alongside Death since the beginning of time and yes, probably will die, because the show has stated that it's possible at least twice. And what really annoys me is that Death's statement of being able to reap God is treated as baseless speculation at every turn even though, as a being on par with God, he would know, and frankly, wouldn't have any reason to lie about it, while in the very article for God we have this statement: "God can open Lucifer's Cage without the Four Horsemen rings, as Dean Winchester incorrectly suspected it was God who got Sam Winchester out" So basically, if Dean is wrong about something, we give him the benefit of the doubt and count it anyway just because he's talking about God, but if Death is "wrong" about something he could care less about (and of course we completely ignore that fact that Death was aware of the hallucinations without even being told), he's a bumbling pompous idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about? Someone tell me that isn't skewed. And then there's the religious filler stuff like "The angels and Archangels called God their father, and existed only to glorify Him," which is obviously never said in the series. Ensephylon (talk) 22:07, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
Religious bias certainly frustrates me as it frequently hinders my attempt to keep the wiki speculation-free, so I fully agree with your stance on neutraility, Ensephylon. 22.214.171.124 23:39, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Um, I believe you mean episode "The Children Are Our Future", where Castiel says, "Your Bible gets more wrong that it does right." Anyway, God, in the Supernatural universe, is Eternal, for he has no beginning and no end. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:03 PM, March 5th 2013
- Prehaps in religion, but Death's statements "In the end, I will reap him too," and "Oh, yes. God will die too, Dean," suggests otherwise in Supernatural. 126.96.36.199 00:26, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- I have yet to see him prove any of those statements. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:31 PM, March 5th 2013
- 1) Yes, I meant IBTCAOF. Point is, Supernatural has a precendent for ignoring the Bible in favor of establishing its own canon. 2) It doesn't matter if you've seen Death prove that he can kill God. I've yet to see Michael kill Lucifer, so despite the fact that several characters have said that he can, would that make it reasonable to find every mention of Michael being able to kill Lucifer and add "It was said that Michael can kill Lucifer, but this has yet to be proven so it seems unlikely"? No. You know why? Because the notion that Michael can kill him was mentioned in the show by characters who would have that knowledge, and it doesn't contradict any other existing canon. And anyway, what's the big deal? Why can't Death kill God in a fictional work? It almost seems like it's being treated as some kind of pissing contest between the two. Like "I'm totally strong enough to kill you, God" "Yeah lol I'd like to see you try, Death. I'm infinite and eternal and even though I screwed up and made the Leviathans, I'm still waaaay smarter and stronger and have bigger muscles than you. Oh and even though I don't know how old I am, I still know everything." I expect that God and Death are far more mature than humans. This is just my guess here, but I would think that God and Death are both fully aware of the fact that everything has to end and would accept that as a fact of reality. Ensephylon (talk) 02:18, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- That is irrelevant as all of us must imparitially accept Death's statements as fact until proven otherwise. 188.8.131.52 01:03, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the religious bias annoys me to no end. It's completely evident whenever someone tries to prove Death wrong. And when an argument is brought up against them, we are then accused of being Death fanboys. It doesn't just happen here either. It happens on YouTube and IMDb as well. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:08, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Eh, you'll get over it. :) -- ImperiexSeed, 12:24 PM, March 6th 2013
- That's hardly the right answer. 184.108.40.206 22:51, March 7, 2013 (UTC)
- Um....ok. Well, here are a few pointers, that are supported, and also contradicted, in verse. Archangel Lucifer says, and I quote, "No one (meaning, no being in existence) makes Dad do anything." But yet, somehow, Death says, "In the End, I'll reap him, too." To reap something, the 'reaper', whoever it is, must be of higher power and stature. God, according Angelic soldier Joshua, is Omniscient. Joshua, to the Winchesters, "He knows already, everything you wish to tell him." And nothing can kill God, so by that stance, God is eternal. This can't be denied, and despite what Death says concerning God's power and memory - he can't prove any of it. So, YES, God IS Omnipotent, Omniscient, and eternal. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:30 PM, March 7th 2013
- Death reaping God doesn't mean he's making God do anything. No one just gives God orders.
- And Joshua said God knew everything the Winchesters wanted to say to God. Not that God knew everything. Joshua's quote can be taken either way. It's not a definitive answer. Saying that nothing can kill God is from your perspective, not the show's. And Death hasn't proved it, not that he can't prove it. The only way Death can't prove his claims is if God and Death are in a scene together, Death raises his hand to kill God and nothing happens. There are absolutely no benefits to Death's own well being and Death gains nothing from making a statement that he can reap God. He was showing Dean the cold, hard reality of life. What did Death gain from telling Dean that he could reap God? Scare him? I doubt it seeing as his mere presence already made Dean look like he was about to crap himself. It obviously wasn't seeing as when Bobby brought it up, Death tried to say otherwise until Dean reminded him of it. Death didn't bother denying it either. Instead he asked Dean why should he kill God. And then there are the people who bring up the argument that Death said he would reap God and not outright kill him. Of course Death never made a distinction between the two either. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 01:21, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
- He did, though - he made the distinction. Dean said, "We need you to kill "God" (Castiel, while wielding all of Purgatory's souls)." And Death responded with, "Why should I", implicating the fact the he thinks he can. Well, you're right, Joshua never said, "God knows all", or "God is Omniscient", but let's look at it from multiple lens. God knows the thoughts of living things in Supernatural, and in the form of Chuck, God knew everything about the Wichesters, and everything they did, or would do. Chuck was never wrong. And, Chuck is God the Father, Creator Eric Kripke himself said he was. So there! -- ImperiexSeed, 8:28 PM, March 7th 2013
- No he didn't. Death never made a distinction between killing and reaping God. "Why should I?" can easily mean why should he kill God during that time. It wasn't the end and he certainly wasn't going to do so because a lowly human told him to.
- Chuck is not God. I don't care of Kripke said so, other sources say otherwise. There has been no absolutely canonical info about it. Especially after Kripke said that, Chuck was brought up in an episode and Castiel figured he died which is why Kevin replaced him. The writers are still playing around with it and there will be no confirmation on it. It still conflicts.
- "I don't care of Kripke said so" logistically destroys every argument you've ever had in regards to this show, and in turn, lost any credibility I may have given you. It's his show! -- ImperiexSeed, 9:15 PM, March 7th 2013
- What does the act of reaping mean? Well, it means to "slay" the soul, or essence, of a being. Now, God doesn't have a soul, but he does have an essence, obviously. To "kill", means to destroy. So for God, these two terms would go hand-in-hand, however, seeing as it's not possible to kill God, Death's going to get nowhere in that perception. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:22 PM, March 7th 2013
- It does not logically destory every argument I have said. You're just being immature and looking for a scapegoat. Kripke may have confirmed it, but they have still not introduced it into the show's official canon. Until they do, it's his word against the writers who wrote it so it was left open. Especially since all we have is Chuck disappearing and Castiel thinking he was dead due to Kevin being the next prophet.
- I was pointing out the "reap" and "kill" argument for people who don't think it means the same thing for God.
- Just a few posts up (how old is God), Imperiex, you actually agree that nothing lasts forever except for death. So which is it really? Where do you really stand? 220.127.116.11 02:48, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
- Ok. THE FRICKIN' CREATOR OF THE SHOW, ERIC KRIPKE, STATED, THAT IN THE SEASON FIVE FINALE, GOD WOULD APPEAR. HE HIMSELF CONFIRMS THAT CHUCK IS GOD, SPECIFICALLY, AND SEVERAL INTERVIEWS ASK QUESTIONS LIKE, "HOW DID IT FEEL TO PLAY GOD", AND STUFF LIKE THAT. You're basis is flawed in that you do not accept what Eric Kripke, the Creator, has said about HIS OWN series. I'm done talking to you. Um, I would've said something along the lines of, "Death and God, in Supernatural, are BOTH eternal." -- ImperiexSeed, 9:50 PM, March 7th 2013
- It's impossible to agree to the Death's statement that only he lasts forever and also agree that God will last alongside Death, at least within the series. 18.104.22.168 03:00, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, actually, it could work both ways. Death, like God, in Supernatural, has an infinite lifespan. For, he, like God, is eternal. But, also, Death can't kill God, so God can also live forever. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:52 PM, March 8th 2013
By Supernatural canonical standards, does God, in Supernatural, qualify as eternal? I say yes, because he has no beginning or end - meeting the criteria, by fitting the exact description of the word. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:13 PM, March 5th 2013
No, God in Supernatural does NOT qualify as enternal. It has been established in the series that God and Death has existed alongside each other since the begining of time, but neither remember who is older, so he indeed has a beginning as well as possibly being the youngest of the two. In addition, Death stated he will God in the end, effectively disproving that God has no end. In closing, God does not meet the critieria as although the aforementioned has yet to be proven true, it has yet proven as false either. 22.214.171.124 01:03, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, I gotta say, the childish way this "Death said he'll reap God" argument has been used over and over as proof the the SPN-God is not eternal is made to the point of insanity sometimes. Has it never occured to anyone of you that Death believes he will reap God in the end, but that doesn't mean he actually can? It just means Death believes himself capable of doing so.
- Also, has it never occured to any of you "Death said so" people that when Death says he will reap God he means when God himself decides to allow himself to die? Given that reapers are harvisters of souls and don't always kill the people they reap, the same could apply to death as well. I have never seen anything that has Death saying he will be the one to kill God, only that he will reap him. As seen in Two Minutes to Midnight where the discussion goes like this:
- (as Dean approaches Death, the scythe heats up, Dean drops it and it reappears on the table Death is sitting at)
- DEATH Thanks for returning that. Join me, Dean. The pizza's delicious. Sit down. Took you long enough to find me. I've been wanting to talk to you.
- DEAN I got to say --I have mixed feelings about that. S-so is this the part where...where you kill me?
- DEATH You have an inflated sense of your importance. To a thing like me, a thing like you, well...Think how you'd feel if a bacterium sat at your table and started to get snarky. This is one little planet in one tiny solar system in a galaxy that's barely out of its diapers. I'm old, Dean. Very old. So I invite you to contemplate how insignificant I find you. (Death gestures to the pizza) Eat. (Dean takes a bite of the pizza) Good, isn't it?
- DEAN Well, I got to ask. How old are you?
- DEATH As old as God. Maybe older. Neither of us can remember anymore. Life, death, chicken, egg. Regardless -- at the end, I'll reap him, too.
- DEAN God? You'll reap God?
- DEATH Oh, yes. God will die, too, Dean.
- DEAN Well, this is way above my pay grade.
- DEATH Just a bit.
- DEAN So, then why am I still breathing, sitting here with you? Uh...w-what do you want?
- DEATH The leash around my neck --off. Lucifer has me bound to him. Some unseemly little spell. He has me where he wants, when he wants. That's why I couldn't go to you. I had to wait for you to catch up. He made me his weapon. Hurricanes, floods, raising the dead. I'm more powerful than you can process, and I'm enslaved to a bratty child with a temper tantrum.
- DEAN And you think...I can unbind you?
- DEATH There's your ridiculous bravado again. Of course you can't. But you can help me take the bullets out of Lucifer's gun. I understand you want this. ( Death holds up his ring)
- DEAN Yeah.
- As can be seen in the above scene Death never says HE will kill God, only that he will die and Death will reap him. Beings of extreme power often believe themselves capable of many things that they have never done. I am not going to say Death can't reap God, nor am I going to say Death can reap God. I will instead say death believes himself capable of reaping God, which might be true and might not be true.
- And for those of you who say "Chuck is never wrong" might I remind you of the episode The Monster at the End of the Book where Chuck is sprawled out on the couch when Dean shows up and Chuck is actually surprised to see him, as evidenced by his surpised expression and this remark "What are you doing here? I didn't write this." So we see here that Chuck is at least not always knowledgable about what is going on, and was wrong about how things with Lilith would go. After all, Chuck claims "Lilith patted the bed seductively. Unable to deny his desire, Sam succumbed, and they sank into the throes of fiery demonic passion." at the beginning of the episode and near the end Dean shows up with Chuck before the "fiery demonic passion" can get going. No the "Chuck is never wrong" claims are in fact wrong. 126.96.36.199 06:11, December 19, 2014 (UTC)
Death and God
Can Death really kill God?
Recent Real-world lore additions
Could someone make the section more streamlined and easier on the eyes? It seems overwhelming as a big block of text with unequal spacing in between paragraphs. FTWinchester (talk) 22:10, November 21, 2013 (UTC)
Teleportation and omnipresence?
Is it even possible for God to teleport and be omnipresent? I mean, how can he teleport somewhere he already is? It's really paradoxical. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:03 PM, January 3rd 2014
Indeed. Also was there any evidence that he is omnipresent or that he can teleport? I mean the angels have no idea where he is and Joshua said that he's somewhere on Earth. If he were omnipresent, Joshua wouldn't needed to say something so vague. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 01:15, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
- Well, you're right, but let me ask you something; what abilities has God demonstrated in the show? And what makes him God in Supernatural? He's God, but there are some things that are just impossible - teleporting and being omnipresent being one of them. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:28 PM, January 3rd 2014
- Well, omnipresence isn't really required. As long as God is omniscient, and retains the ability to teleport, it is very nearly as good as being omnipresent anyway. It is implied an awful lot that God is omniscient, since he can and does interfere using knowledge he gains from being in hiding. But even so, assuming he actually is omnipresent, then the "teleportation" would be more an illusion than actual teleportation; it's just where he chooses to focus his attention at any one time, optionally manifesting a physical form there. -- Scourl (talk) 01:59, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
- No, teleportation is not as good as the ability to be present everywhere. Even characters like Death or Michael can't move so fast that they're everywhere at once. It has been implied at least twice in the series, Joshua's comment but also, Castiel indicates the existence of an ability to know everything when he said he is not. Death said he and God have forgotten their ages, however I have yet to see anything that substantiates this. Death said, in "Meet The New Boss," that they bound him because of Sam's hallucinations - WRONG! Making it plausible, and obvious, that he's not correct on everything. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:47 PM, January 3rd 2014
- God is quite different in Supernatural, which actually I won't get into unless you want me to. All I'm saying, is that when alongside omnipresence, teleportation is made not only pointless, but impossible. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:52 PM, January 3rd 2014
- Yes, he's quite different in Supernatural, and yet there are times where you'll happily use real lore to support your arguments when nothing within the show shows that he's the same Abrahamic God. There has been no evidence that shows he is omnipresent. There's been more evidence in that he is not. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:57, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
- Before people even being with debates regarding God, we really need to ask, Who is God? At least since the Gamble era, it seems like Crowley's God. He IS Lord. I can validate this stance with a few simple quotes and inclinations. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:11 PM, January 3rd 2014
- Here's the difference, Crowley is an actual physical character and we know a Hell of a lot more about him than we do about God. I would think that the comparision is ineffective. Anytime God, angels and Death is mentioned, your posts reek of bias to your own faith. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 04:57, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
Creator of everything?
It's stated on this page that god is the creator of everything in the entire universe but that's not actually stated in the show. For a start he's indirectly responsible for the creation of monsters and demons seeing as eve and lucifer are their creators and its never actually stated that he created pagan gods or fairies and he certainly didnt create death and i doubt he created the other horsemen. So it's wrong to state he created every form of existence in the universe. Also is omnibenevolence really an ability? It's more like a personality trait. And even so several characters have proven this is not the case. Metatron suggests he's a bit of a sexist and gruff and Joshua states he's very wrathful so he's clearly not omnibenevolent.
You are right. It has never been stated on the show that he created everything, but being God, it's assumed that he did. A lot of people fail to differentiate real and reel lore. RaghavD'"Look into my eyes. It’s where my demons hide" 11:26, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
I'm just saying that there's a difference between creating everything in existence and creating almost everything in existence. And that God as he's depicted in supernatural is clearly not omnibenevolent
- Well, actually, Lucifer says bluntly he did in "Swan Song," but that conflicts with the accepted truth that God didn't create Death. Which has to be true, because he's either older than God or as old. So to say he created everything is wrong and shames this wiki's database to say otherwise. He also didn't personally, or directly, create demons, monsters, Famine, War or Pestilence. Also, I think it's safe to reason that he didn't create hellhounds or reapers. It's highly doubtful that he's the one who created fairies, regardless or not if Oberon did. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:17 PM, January 10th 2014
This page is full of unproven guess work
Right, in the Bible, demons are fallen angels, in supernatual, they are twisted human souls, in the Bible, angel's are good guys, in Supernatural, thy are just as evil as demons for the most part, in the Bible, Uriel is an arcangel, in supernatural, he is not, in the Bible, Azrael is the angel of death, in supernatural, the angel of death is the horseman and equal of god while azrael died... in the Bible, Eve is adams wife, in supernatural she is equated with greek Echidna, mother of monsters, in the Bible there was Ziz, Behomoth and Leviathan, originally to of each but god killed one set to prevent them procreating, in supernatural, there is only Leviathan, which are a race.
And, here's my point, in the Bible, God is the supreme of all creation, omnipotent, in supernatural, he obviously is not, he can't be all knowing, or he would have forseen lucifer's rebellion from much earlier and could have stopped it, and hardly anything of his full scope of power has been touched on, he is perhaps the strongest entity to appear on the show, but it's not been proven that he created all, is omniscience, omnipresent or whatever, people are taking his Mythological traits and putting them into a show that messes with the traits continuously, there is still a Possiblilty that God only created our planet, solar system or Galaxy, theres still a chance that other Abstracts like Darkness, Light, Time, Space, Order, Chaos and such could exist alongside Death and God.
Death has expressed that Neither he or God can remember who is older, so neither are all powerful, we can take deaths word over Gods because God has not Said anything against it, in the show for hells sake, everything important in the cosmos takes place on earth, in USA, almost all the Gods, important angels and demons decided to take vessals in a country that's only been a proper country for 450 or so years, all the gods decided to move over to USA?
Sure God had a good idea to imprison Lucifer under Maryland since at that time, nobody would likely have lived there compared to modern population.
But still, until it is proven, bias ideals on what the dictator 'Gods powers should be should be left to unknown at the moment, as we have no proof, this is Supernatural, where it could turn out that the Abstracts form and cosmic council, rather than dictatorship, a council of which God is below.
Just as much chance since it's unproven, like most things on his page.
Okay, first because I'm a nitpicker thats not all true, Angels aren't as evil as demons, there more akin to us, some are good, some are bad, most are neutral. Uriel isn't an archangel in the bible, only one Archangel is mentioned in the bible, Michael (Gabriel is also mentioned, but it doesn't say he's an archangel, thats taken from other sources) Azreal isn't mentioned in the bible, he's from the Quran, Death amongs the four horsemen is however. In supernatural, they both apparantly exist and there both called Eve, (The writers said she was called Eve, as in Eve to mark the beguining) Ziz isn't mentioned, only Behemoth and leviathan. Now on to your point.
He's been described as knowing everything, so thats what is included, the show does occasionally call him out on not doing anything. Its possible but not confirmed, and so we can't include it. Upto date he's been described as the most powerful, you make a point about him maybe not being all powerful, but upto date its never been stated he isn't.
That is a point, so unless Death was just joking he can't count as Omniscentant, or atleast it should be mentioned there is atleast one limit.
This show can't afford to film in other countries, besides thats were Sam and Dean live, they were esential to the Appocalypse so everything moved there.
Didn't really matter where he was, the only way for him to get out was if someone broke the seals, which weren't meant to be broken. And if he did get out, it didn't matter where he was, he would still destroy there earth.
The Abstracts are never going to appear, the shows never going to make the mistake of going into anything like that, A because doing so would be difficult, controversial and expensive, B because it wouldn't really benefit anyone and would just make there job more difficult, C I don't think anyone really cares, and D because I'm pretty sure it was the fans who invented that idea and convinced are self it could happen.
Still you make some good points. I think Omnipotence should stay, but it should be noted that he apparantly can't remeber wether him or death is older, and remove the one about him being everywhere. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:23, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
Abstracts could easily appear, God could be chuck, but if not, has never appeared, death himself is abstract, the others could easily appear, the Idea that there are other magical realms of questionable genesis, such as Avalon, It's been implied that God did not create it and it exist seperate to our own universe, so perhaps another God like creature made it, I doubt it's Oberon, he seems more like an Archangel to them by comparrison, and Avalon, is likely an entire universe, not just Avalon it's self, Avalon just being the focal planet like earth is in ours.
There are too many questions and holes available to say God created it all, I'm sure the dieties would have mentioned it by now, I don't think there Tupla, because Gabriel lived among them and even and sexual relations with one, and also there is the matter of Eve, the mentioned Avalon, Horsemen, I get the feeling that God is part of a bigger scheme, abstracts could easily be mentioned or at least other God like entitites and like 'God' simply be mentioned and never revealed.
Gabriel mentioned that 'Nobdody makes us do anything' referring to Archangels, and then it was also stated, 'nobody makes dad do anything' now that's a problem, as God can make the archangels do stuff even though Gabriel said 'nobody' can, so perhaps there are things that are above God himself.
The archangel's often think of themselves and God as father and son's as if there any other family, like there are other celestial famililes, if The horsemen are Siblings, then who is their parent? The Archangel's is God and they also are four brothers.
Personally I would advise you drop the idea of the Abstracts, but if you don't its entirely your choice. Now I think your speculating to much about Avalon, form what we've seen its probably another realm like Hell or Purgatory, not a universe just another pocket dimension. Still it hasn't been confirmed either way.
Now although you have a point that God in this universe probably didn't create everything, I don't see how this proves he's not omnipotent. If I build a house and some one else build a bungerlow next to it, would that mean I wasn't able to build the bungerlow just cause I didn't? I agree, I've gone off the Tupla theory, what they are I don't know. However I would like to point out, there not gods in the divine sense, more there more powerful than most beings and they enjoy being worshiped. Eve, well the companion guide revealed that she formed out of Purgatory its self, so in essence she is the descendant of one of Gods creations, cause Purgatory was one of his creations (although its confirmed or not I'm unsure), Avalon is unreavealed. As for the Horsemen I don't think anyone created them, they just naturally exist.
That is a point, but in all fairness I think you might be looking to closely into some words. Basically after God (and Death) the archangels are the most powerful beings. Plus I thought Gabriel comment was referancignt ehre Free will not there power, he was stating Lucifer could do what ever he wanted, cause Lucifer blamed all he had done on his father.
Well Technically he is there father, God made them. They are brothers by the same token of sharing a father. The Horsemen cleary consider each other brothers, presumably cause they all form from the same point. I don't think they have an orgin. They just exist. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:38, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
Okay Rapheal is not Bible technically but he is Still a Judaism and Christian Archangel, appearing in the book of tobit, Uriel on the otherhand is considdered Christian but more Jewish from the 'apocrypha', abrahamic archangel's, and with the recent christian myth twists on adam and eve's son becoming a demon AFTER he turned lilith who is not one thier children, everything established in the bible can be dismissed.
GOD in the judaism and christianity same thing but dont you dare said put islam among them islam religion has no connection to these two god in islam has no partner only one god Allah.
GOD in islam has no gender,age or limit every connection on internet put islam same table with these two has to be deleted.
Combining with Chuck
Since it has been confirmed by multiple people that Chuck was God, should we really have two separate pages? I think we should have one page, as they are the same person. If anyone has any thoughts, please speak them. If no one says anything within 3 days, I will combine the two pages.EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 05:55, November 9, 2014 (UTC)
Since no one has responded to this, I assume no one has a problem with the pages being combined. I will combine them some time later tonight, so if anyone wants to say something about it, leave it here. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 20:38, November 12, 2014 (UTC)
I know I'm really late to the party, but this has been a huge spoiler for me. I know that if I click on a character page, I'm likely to learn something I don't want to, but I clicked to make sure that a link to the Chuck page was the right one, when I was cleaning up a page, and had a huge surprise. I would really love to see a page on just Chuck, separate from God, and maybe link the God one to Chuck, but not vice versa, or do so with a hint and warning that it's a spoiler. Is it too late to go back? :) Saintless77 (talk) 22:57, January 13, 2015 (UTC)
I'm sorry, this wiki is updated to the current information presented, and doesnr avoid spoilers. We present all information the show presents to use. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 02:24, January 15, 2015 (UTC)
Chuck = God ?
When did this happen? When did it happen that the post-Kripke seasons openly state or strongly implied that Chuck is indeed God? Where are the citations? I understand there were several hints about Chuck being God but we haven't had any, from what I know, other supporting details outside of Swan Song, especially when producers/showrunners like Sera Gamble would later refrain from confirming this is true. Was it confirmed in a recent episode? FTWinchester (talk) 13:30, November 25, 2014 (UTC)
Chuck being God has been confirmed by Kripke himself and Rob. Also, Cas states that only one prophet can exist at a time and yet, Chuck is still alive, because he's God. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:46 PM, November 25th 2014
Kripke is no longer the showrunner for half the series, though.
When did Kripke confirm it? I can't find any citation for that. Should they really be the same page if the show itself hasn't confirmed it?
Chuck is, indeed, God of the Supernatural universe, who, as the author, is completely omnipotent over all of it. There is a preponderance of evidence proving that he is God. Kripke confirms that in the finality of his work, God will appear, and it's clearly Chuck, and Rob confirms it in a video on Youtube. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:31 AM, December 5th 2014
Ok if God created one horsemen. Than he created death by that logic. Pestilence, War, Famine, Death are concepts and Death states he is at least as old as God. Now I am being calm. I will not start an edit war. But all bias content will be removed for this page and all others. And you cite Death's flaws. What about God's Metatron statements on his persona, he seem far from omnibenevolent.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 22:20, December 24, 2014 (UTC)
No, Death stated that he couldn't remember how old he was, and that he could be as old, or older than God. The hirsmen were created when their affiliation was, so Death was most likely made when God made the first life. And I am not being bias, The page states what Metatron said. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 04:54, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
God's lore much more changed.
In the Show, most of the time, The pagan Gods are written in Mostly accordence with how they really where (a little to much sacrificing, which as a historian of ancient history, I know to be untrue), but those Gods are written in a good respectful way.
Now the Judeo Christian supposed interperation of God within the series... is very different, so basing what we know from real worl lore to him in show is not a good idea. In the Bible, he literally comes across as directly connected to humans, talking to them, doing a good job with the prayers, do this and I will let you into heaven, do this and you go to hell, granting prayers, healing, ect. while being egotistical, power crazy and dominating to both angels and humans... yet in the show this is not so.., not only is the validility of the Bible questioned at least by Castiel, and other angels using it as a way of manipulating humans, to which God doesn't care....
The Angels of course have slaughtered many many many humans (naomi even mentions an event where, God was supposedly in heaven, and they killed lots of humans, was it egypt?, Jesus being mentioned by beings such as Eve as being 'just a man', the idea of prophets with the word of God, Leviathans, the alterations on the story of cain and abel.. makes you wonder just how much of all that is held in the bible god within the bounds of the show, even gives a **** about? we know praying works, although have nothing to suggest whether it has only ever gone to the angels, and with Castiel actually think up until season 4, the orders where coming from God when they actually where not, how much else has he ever really been involved aside from a tiny bit of governing in heaven?
All he seems to have done is have some fundamental laws written, like he is the Grand Judge of the universe, but there is nothing to suggest that being Christan, or not allows you into heaven, why he would just let a good spirit like Bobby's go to Hell. It's also obvious that he doesn't need praying to as he already knows what your going to say to him... too much in terms of humans not being as important to him (namely christians) as they like to think... i doubt he cares if he's called 'the holy father' or if anyone wants to live their lives in accordence to his Bible (which as mentioned is full of stuff they have simply believed, much of which isn't true)... the Show has played heavily on emphasis of free will that the real Biblical teachings do not allow.
So assuming that just because many pagan Gods in show are kep in tradition to how they are depicted in show, it by no means, does the law apply to the the Judeo Christian...Princepurple (talk) 14:39, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
Is Chuck God
Yes, I know all about season 5. But didn't Sera Gamble the showrunner for season 6-7 contradict this and said she wasn't too sure. Yes, Season 10 showed Chuck like he was God. But, Fan Fiction could have shown Chuck as the prophet/Arthur of the books in the show's universe. I am not saying all materials that links God to being Chuck should be removed. But, should we list the doubts as well?[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 13:58, May 27, 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree. Chuck was never actually said too be God. Prove it before you poster his face all over the page