God was never afraid of Jack, and the true solution other than killing Jack
I don't think that God was ever really afraid of Jack. He could've just been acting. I mean, he pulled off a pretty damn good performance when he was just good old Chuck Shurley in Seasons 4 and 5. He could've just pretended to afraid of Jack to make it seems like Jack was actually a huge f***ing problem because, like the darkness, he made God quiver in his boots. And in 14x20, God effortlessly killed Jack with a snap of his fingers, and if the equalizer he made really could kill jack, a Mid-Tier Nigh-Omnipotent being, and it did nothing to him, that proves just how infinetly more powerful God is compared to Jack. God was just doing what he did when he was first introduced, acting. He is playing his part in the story to make it go the way he wants it to. Let's face it. The only other beings that can harm or even kill God are Amara and Death (A.K.A. Billie). Or maybe he was afraid of Jack, but not because of what he could do to him, but that a.) such a powerful being lacking a soul and thus lacking a moral compass could ruin his little story world, or b.) the winchesters having their own little nuclear bomb up their sleeves could ruin his plans for how the story was going to continue. Also, how could Jack kill God, when it was prophesied that Death (A.K.A. Billie) would be the one to do it. Maybe when Death said he would be the one to reap God in the end times, he didnt mean he himself, but whoever is the personification of Death at the time. Plus, God just started the apocalypse. This could mean Billie will kill God in season 15.
Now onto the second part. This is how Jack could've been saved. Cass once said that angels that loose their grace develop a soul and become human. Well how about this. The winchesters couldve used a grace extractor and removed some of Jack's grace and put it into Cass, thus making him charged with archangel grace so he could use the Archangel Blade to remove the rest of Jacks Grace. Or Jack could've done it to himself. Then they could wait for whatever is left of Jack's original soul to heal back up, give him his grace back, and boom! Jack is back! Do you guy's agree with this?
I'm having a hard time believing God resurrected Castiel after the leviathans took over his body. The narrative established after the Leviathans left him, he made his way out of the river, naked, and ran into his future wife Daphne. He didn't die. Cass had amnesia because the leviathans had just absorbed every piece of information he ever knew. Further more, why would God bring Castiel back with amnesia? He brought him back twice before a fully restored angel but this time he decides.."I'll bring him back naked with no memory of who is as a punishment?" You see what I'm getting at..? THAT's a bit of a stretch isn't it. However, Castiel did SPECULATE that he was brought back that way as a in punishment in this quote only. "And at best, I die trying to fix my own stupid mistake. Or... I don't die – I'm brought back again. I see now. It's a punishment resurrection. It's worse every time." Bkshadows (talk)
- Its pretty much all but said that God resurrected him. The Leviathans destroyed him completely, how else would he have come back??? His vessel completely imploded and if Cas himself had survived without Jimmy he'd have needed a new vessel. He doesn't have one. He speculated that his resurrection was a punishment but speculating that it was a punishment in the first place means he at the very least believes he was resurrected again. God also indicates that he's resurrected Cas several times with his "more times than I can remember" comment. That actually makes me think Cas has been resurrected more often than we know if God brought him back more times than he remember rather than two or three. God could've brought him back to help but left him without his memory as punishment for his actions. However, he didn't make it so that his memory was impossible to recover if you remember, he just blocked it or something.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 20:10, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
I see what your arguing however I've noticed with many of these debates it all boils down to our individuals interpretations of what we believe we saw in the show. Looks like this situation is no different, as when the episode aired, I never saw Castiel's vessel implode. What I saw in the show established that the leviathans took Castiel's body absorbed his memory and simply abandoned him. We saw his head go under water and large black ooze appear but we never saw his body or vessel actually implode. His clothes simply washed up on shore and Castiel was left naked with his mind wiped clean. He then stumbled out of the water and met Daphne. Yes his comment does imply he believes he was resurrected again. I also agree God also indicates that he's resurrected Cas several times with his "more times than I can remember" comment. But to say that "God resurrected Castiel with some sort mental block so he temporary wouldn't remember who he is, as a form of punishment.." is stretching things quite a bit in my opinion. Cass has been resurrected by God many times, However I'm just not convinced that this was one of those times.Bkshadows (talk)
- You confuse me, Bkshadows. We saw it, didn't we? The Leviathans were leaking out of Castiel's vessel, ready to pop out, rip the vessel's skin to shreds. What you're implying is that they escaped through the vessel's mouth like an angel or a demon does, thus sparing his vessel, and his life. My next question is, how did Castiel lose his trench coat if he didn't explode? Did it just, slip off? Kajune (talk) 20:47, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
I don't have an answer as we didnt see exactly what happened on screen. Yes they were ready to pop out however one can assume his clothes came off as the leviathans were exiting his body. That's why he came out the water naked. My question is why would God resurrect Castiel right after that completely naked with no memory when he clearly brought him back whole many times before that. Bkshadows (talk)
- Well, unless someone says outright that God didn't resurrect Castiel after the Leviathan outbreak, this wikia should state that he did, because we have more statements pointing to the conclusion that yes, it was God who resurrected him with his memory suppressed. Just saying. Kajune (talk) 21:02, December 6, 2016 (UTC)
- Well Bk, I brought this topic long time ago but it wasn't resolved. I agree with you but we don't really know if he died or not. I believe it's better to leave it as at least twice. It is unclear that if he was revived or not. SeraphLucifer (talk) 21:09, December 6, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
Again, we're all different people that interpret things in different ways. This is one of them. Castiel and Chuck's comments could lead one to believe yes God resurrected him with his memory suppressed. However as it wasn't completely shown on screen there's no firm answer, one way or the other and further more it just doesn't make sense that God would bring Cass back with a mental block as punishment in my opinion. As Seraph said its at the very least unclear. Again I'm just presenting the narrative of which I saw, clearly most of us have interpreted it in different ways, which often happens around here, there's nothing wrong with that only proves we see things differently. Bkshadows (talk)
Lost to Amara
Okay, we really need to clean this argument up a bit. Both Amara and God constantly state that they're equals in power and age.(Death claims that Amara is older, but he's apparently become a massive, irrelevant liar because of retcons, so let's just forget about him) Yet when it came down to it, even after a full on demon attack, a super-smite, and a few hits from top notch witches, she still beat him and Lucifer. How? Well, it suddenly becomes a bit clearer when you think of it from a different direction. Several options: A) God's whole thing is that he creates. Amara destroys. In a stand-up fight, the brawler beats the engineer, but the engineer can build things like weapons, tools, and fortifications. Or to make a reference to another Urban Fantasy(the Dresden Files), it's like comparing an Evocator( big, quick, flashy, destructive manipulate the elements type of magic) to a thaumaturge(slower magic, can do more complex things like healing, wards, summoning, and enchantment). One has immediate power, the other has the power to prepare themselves. B) The divine equivalent of adreneline. Not to be stereotypical here, but parents lift cars, cars, off their children all the time while high on the mortal version. Assume that God and Amara have an equivalent, and the fear and hatred and rage generated from combat with three seperate armies of fairly potent supernatural beings and then of being about to be sealed away again has got to generate quite a bit. C) Suprise. Take the idea that Lucifer and the other attackers are more of an "edge" type of thing than a large advange at the level God and Amara operate on. Then remember the thing about fighting: suprise can mean a hell of a lot. God didn't really seem like he was expecting that telekinetic attack near the end. And she never let up. Same principle applies in a real fight, you can be at someone's mercy, but if you get the sucker punch in - throat, head, genitalia - and then keep pressing the advantage, you can turn a fight around. D) God built the universe. He rebuild Castiel, made souls, books, magic, worlds, and he teleported, shapeshifted, designed things, and he apparently had a whole righteous phase. That takes a lot of energy. He's been using his powers for the last few eons. All Amara's been doing is whispering in the ears of a few smucks, turning two into demons, and powering a little telekinesis. She has way more power stored up than God does. She's been saving it for a raining day, and God's-about-to-imprison-me seems like a bit of a hurricane to me. Dragonlover553 (talk) 04:04, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
All of your points except D were your own speculation and ideas so they aren't viable debate points. I agree on point D, but the rest is a complete and utter waste of space. It can't be cited or used in an argument. And Amara built her back up by consuming souls and like; unless I'm mistaken. I'm quite sure she was extremely weak in comparison to God, when she was first released. Zane T 69 (talk) 04:27, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
Amara's quote "I was the beginning..." implies that she came into existence before God. According to the rules of Supernatural, older beings are naturally stronger than younger beings, and Amara is stronger than God. Even with the help of four archangels, God still couldn't win. Now, after Amara was freed from her prison, she was weak, and needed to consume energy balls (aka souls) to become stronger. It is implied that Rowena restored Amara's strength in "Hell's Angel". However, if you still want to argue that God and Amara are equals in both age and power, then remember that in the original script, God was supposed to die. CW forced a rewrite, and all the lore from "Alpha and Omega" is the result of that. So maybe there was a retcon or two in the final episode, but it doesn't mean Amara was born at the same time as God. It doesn't. Maybe God and Amara are on the same level, as you could say Sam and Dean are on the same level, Gabriel and Michael are on the same level. It is more easy to compare two beings of the same species (if you could call Amara and God that). A species younger is collectively weaker than an older species, so no, the archangels are not equals to Amara, but God is. Still, it doesn't mean God and Amara are equally powerful. No confirmation, just speculation. Kajune (talk) 05:33, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
I'm going to sum it up, Amara and God are equal as in the same class of power. However Amara is older that never was stated otherwise. Only that in the beginning it was just him and her. So and while its speculation it's like their Twins with Amara the first one. But regardless of that's speculation it was never stated 100% that God was older or exactly equal in age. Only that they were equals as they were the only things before creation so they stood and measured only each other. But Amara showed greater power one-on-one with God. However Lucifer was able to hide himself from here (however Amara was weakened at that time) and God could hide from her but vice-versa Amara could shield herself from God. As the fundamental Darkness and Light they have the same degree of Class of God Power. (Yes Amara has God Power as her fog awoke a Prophet). However Amara's still is higher somewhat. But God is far more experienced according to Lucifer so he created beings of great power to make up the difference in power. However with all that said God still could kill Amara being somewhat comparable as the Light. Just 9 out of 10 times in a direct fight one-on-one Amara would win.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 16:51, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
Amara is not more powerful then God. Amara went for a killing blow against God whereas God himself said on multiple occasions that he didn't want to kill her as it would disrupt the cosmic balance. It's the whole reason he needed the Archangels to imprison her. If it was just a fight to the death, the creator could overpower the destroyer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs)
Except that's not true. God himself said that the first war was close, and if only he and Lucifer went up against her, they'd lose. Furthermore, keep in mind that ("Didn't want to kill her") was just an excuse by the writers because The CW was too cowardly to kill God (which was the writers' intention).
When was it said that cloaking spell created by shaman is strong enough to hide Gabriel from God?
So God's Not Omnipotent?
When I was watching the season 11 finale I was thinking if God is omnipotent (at least the christian god is) why can't he just make himself better from Amara's attack. Naturally I got curious and decided to go on the wiki, and I was surprised to find out that he was Nigh-Omnipotent. This discovery brought up another thought. Is there any mention of God being Omnipotent in the bible? I mean don't get me wrong he has to be very powerful (he created the freaking unviverse) However is he truly all powerful? Please let me know. 188.8.131.52 01:24, March 23, 2017 (UTC)
- Amara's his more powerful older sister. She's not exactly in the Bible either!!!--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 03:28, March 23, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, of course the Bible says that God is omnipotent (Jeremiah 32:27 - "I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?"). Like all monotheistic texts, it's not going to say that its god is anything but the ultimate being.
Should God's species be Primordial Entity when Amara is Nothingness, Death is a Horseman, and the Archangels are Archangels? He was Being before, so should we keep that, or also change Amara? Dtol (talk) 19:22, September 5, 2017 (UTC)
Chuck mentions having boyfriends and girlfriends, and he is male (even his own sister calls him "he"). That puts him square in the "bisexual" category.
Gotta wonder if he ever had sex, though...
Amara is not more powerful than God
1. Amara being older is not final proof of anything. It's not always that being older means being more powerful on the show. Take Ruby and Crowley -- both are of the same species, demons. Ruby was born in the 14th century and Crowley in in 17th century. Yet Ruby is quite a mediocre demon when you take her knife and witchcraft knowledge away from her. More than once in Season 4 she was dominated by some demon goon and needed Sam to rescue her. Whereas Crowley is far above the average demon in strength -- he even killed a demon once by just snapping his finger. Another example, also from the demon world: Lilith is the oldest demon in Creation. But she is considered by most fans as being less strong than Azazel and the other Princes of Hell (with the possible exception of Asmodeus). And we know for a fact that Lilith, though capable of defeating angels, couldn't kill them on her own, whereas at least one Prince of Hell, Dagon, showed she could kill angels with just a touch of her hand.
2. Someone said above that, even with his archangels' help, God was not able to defeat Amara. But God locked her up for billions of years and proceeded to impose his will on the whole universe without her interference. This is not just a victory -- it is an overwhelming one. If by "defeat", you mean "kill" -- well, it is clear that God never wanted to kill Amara. Even when Amara begged him to kill her in the 22nd episode of the 11th season, all God could bring himself to do was try to lock her up again, by transferring her mark to Sam. He didn't want her death on his consciousness. After all, he knew that Creation still needed her Darkness to counterbalance his Light. So it is clear that he didn't mean to kill her in Season 11, and therefore he probably didn't want to kill her in their first war either. SonOfEve (talk) 22:24, April 26, 2018 (UTC)
God+Lucifer < Amara (as they said themselves, and as demonstrated in the series). That's proof right there.
- That was not "demonstrated". Amara begged God to kill her, God said nothing but merely starts his procedure to lock her up again, she suddenly rebels, and then deals God a fatal blow. That's what happened -- she caught him by surprise when he was not expecting it, because he thought she was submitting to his will. Also, God does know two methods to kill her: by putting her in the midst of many supernovas, and by using bombs made of souls -- souls he can create himself anytime he wants. If they faced off again, and he saw no alternative but to kill her, I see no reason why he couldn't do either of those things right away. For all we know, he only used such complex strategies to fight her before because he never meant to truly destroy her. SonOfEve (talk) 22:31, April 26, 2018 (UTC)
God is aside from maybe Death that the only one that has a “shot” of beating Amara in an one-on-one. And by shot I mean like very low chance. As all of this can be codified with one quote by God himself. Told to Metatron in 11x20 (Don't Call Me Shurley), “I took responsibility for her too, locked her away barely I might add.” If God was equal or superior in power to Amara than he wouldn’t have “barely” locked her away. Most get confused by what Amara said, that in the Beginning they were alone and equals. But that could mean anything from age, status, type of existence they are etc. From what is shown and said Amara and God are in the same equality of power class. Just not in the same hierarchy of that class. Similar to how the older Archangels specifically Michael and Lucifer are and were stronger than their younger brothers.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:26, July 11, 2018 (UTC)
Also forgot to add this. Even if God’s power is exactly equal and can be used as destructively as Amara, (some believe God has equal strength to Amara but can only create on an universal scale, while Amara can only destroy on a universal scale) than at most he would have needed only one Archangel not four. As God said with only himself and Lucifer they would lose against Amara.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:30, July 11, 2018 (UTC)
Personally I think that God and Amara are equal, even she says this in "We happy few"; I believe that he created 4 archangels beacause the effort to cage a being that has the same amount of power it's difficult and require time and effort, so he had to be sure that she couldn't fight back while he was sealing her. Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 11:02, July 11, 2018 (UTC)
I really can't accept this Amara>God thing in this page. Amara wasn't more powerful than God. They are equal.
They are yin and yang, Darkness and Light. They can kill each other and if someone kill one of them, goodbye universe. In the series it has been stated multiple times that they equal, even by Amara herself (11x22) and by Lucifer (11×09 ). When she 'overpowered' Chuck during the Season 11 fight, it was clear that he did not fight back and was only trying to seal her, not directly harm her. Seal someone it's more difficult than kill someone, especially if this someone is strong as God. That's why the first time God needed the Archangels. When Amara found out she was going to be imprisioned again, she unleashed her power. She hit first and God wasn't expecting that. They are both equals as they kept putting it. She was out for revenge until she seen that family is what matters most. The thing is because God doesn't want to kill her, he's holding back. He was also far more emotional as well. It's nonsense put the Darkness above Light.
Killing someone is not equal to being stronger than them. I can kill anyone IRL. I'm not stronger than everyone though. Just a good punch to the throat and they are dead. God wanted to lock her up, not kill her. She wanted to kill him.
Amara and God are equal.
It was stated multiple times that they are equals.
Yeah, God needed help from the Archangels to seal her, but that's only because he and Amara were at a stalement. That's because they were equals. Two equal forces require another force to tip the scales. Also, God never wanted to kill her. He was holding back alot.
There's also the reasoning that a weakened Amara managed to hurt God. But he wasn't really fighting at the time. He came there to seal her, unlike Amara who was bloodlusted and was fighting for her life/freedom.
Amara's attack with emotionally charged with rage. Made it easy to overpower Chuck and deal a fatal blow. Amara is the angry, thrashing one, and Chuck is the calm, strategic one. Chuck thought he has cornered her and she thought so too, but he was distracted with the sealing while Amara freaked out.
AMARA: "That's your story. Not mine. The real reason you banished me, why I couldn't be allowed to exist you couldn't stand it. Yeah, we’re equals. We weren't great or powerful because we stood only in relation to each other. You think you made the archangels to bring light? No. You made them to create lesser beings, to make you large. (She struggles to her feet.) To make you Lord. It was ego! You wanted to be big! "
Amara here states that they are equals. It was stated even by Lucifer. They are Darkness and Light and they can kill each other. It is harder to trap Amara than kill her.
God's true form
The only angels to have seen the almighty's true form in all his glory are the archangels, while Metatron only saw his light and feet, and it's unknown if Gadreel was visibly personally picked by him.
Nothing suggest that Death and God are equal.
Reaping is not the same as killing, reaping is just essentially "confirming" a death in supernatural. Death basically said that God, eventually, will die. Even Billie in season 11 could reap God, and she was just a reaper. It's seems also confirmed that God is older than Death, since Amara does not know him.
Nothing suggest that Death was right. He was not infallibile after all, maybe he thought he was able to "reap" God, but in fact he was not. Or maybe it's just another script error in the Supernatural story. Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 18:49, June 5, 2019 (UTC)
As other people already said, the Darkness and God are equally powerful.
Chuck said multiple times that he has no wish or intention to actually harm Amara in any way. I have no doubt in my mind that Chuck could have done the same thing to her that she did to him. But since he does not want to hurt his sister he didn't. Locking her away is much harder than to simply ending her permanently. Thats why he needed help fighting her.
Just because multiple people agree with you doesn't mean you're right. Look up "argumentum ad populum". As for locking someone away, that's actually much easier than killing someone. Note that Kali, for example, was able to bind an archangel, even though she's nowhere near the same level as an archangel.
What was demonstrated is that Amara overpowered God - quite easily, in fact. She was also always bossing him around when they were "young", which she wouldn't have been able to do if they were equal.
I took it in terms of “Raw Power” being equal like Lucifer stated or how Amara stated At the Beginning of Time She and Him were equals. For they only measured each other. Maybe equal by being in the same class of power but not the same tier. Like image Amara and God like how Michael to say Gabriel or Raphael was. Yes their still Archangel Class but their not all in the same tier or hierarchy of that class.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 11:04, June 27, 2019 (UTC)