Who put it can kill Eve? there is no proof of this and also who said it was created by Samuel Colt? I've never heard this once on the show?
Yes, you are totally correct in saying that because it was never mentioned as to who constructed the knife nor do we know if that knife could have killed Eve. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:21 PM, April 30th 2011
I really hope one day we will find out how it was made ect ;p that knife along with the colt are intresting:)
I think this page needs more info. Like when the knife is used, how it is used. The fact that demons know what it is, all of that. This page is pretty bare for such an important item.
Starku 06:21, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
First, Alistair was never stabbed in the heart. Here is the fight with castiel:
Pay attention at 1:15
He is twisting the knife, which is positioned in the upper pectoral, not moving down towards his heart.
Here is a picture of where the heart is:
Alistair was stabbed in the upper pectoral, not the heart.
Coincidentally, when Sam stabbed alistair the first time they met, he stabbed him in the exact same place.
Provide evidence to the contrary, or Im going to revert your edit.
No, he wasn't. Here is the video:
Pay attention at 1:23. He was stabbed in the same area as his fight with cas. Not in the heart.
No I'm pretty sure it was his heart, it was lower, and this time the knifes pointed down, even if wasn't where his heart was virticuly, it would still have gone through it, as the knife's that long. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:13, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
No, you are stretching it quite a bit. The knife was more to his left if anything, and was not pointed toward the heart. Watch the video again. At the end of the video you can clearly see the stab wound very near his shoulder.
No I've watched it again, and I'll still say its going in his heart, I admit I was wrong the first time, but thats more down to being unsure where the heart actually was, but this time it was around the right area, and pointing down, sure it wouldn't go through the center, but even piercing the side of a heart, is directly fatal. To end this constant, I disagree, how about we have another user look, and then they decide wether or not it does, as we don't seem able to convince each other. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:32, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Did you pause at 1:23 like I said? That frame CLREARLY shows the position of the knife. Its nowhere near his heart. At 1:41 you can clearly see the wound. Its basically below his shoulder. And from the blood stain on the knife at 1:38, you can see that it did not even go all the way in. But, whatever, lets have another user take a look at it.
I have examined the evidnence and yes it did not go into his heart in his fight with Castiel, but when Sam stabbed him, it would've punctured the top of his heart. Which would be fatal. Self-Declared God of Supreme Conduits (talk) 23:14, February 1, 2013 (UTC)Kesslerbeast
There is no way it reached his heart, The heart is in the middle of the chest. Picture of heart location:
Alistair was stabbed near the shoulder joint:
Why does it matter? that knife killed many other demons without directly hitting the heart, Alastair was not killed, so there is no proof to suggest that a heart kill would be fatal to him anyway, it apparently was not to Abaddon.
Good point, where is stated that stabbing the heart for demons is more dangerous with the knife? No where, so far any wound to the chest, neck or head is leathal to demons, and he survived these so he's immune. The closest is Alastairs own comment, and how would he know? He clearly didn't recognise the knife, nor had it ever happened before, so he was most likely guessing. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll alter the page. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:19, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Also adding, some demons have died by being stabbed in the stomach, like Brady and the demon possessing Bobby. Alistair was stabbed by the knife in his stomach when Dean tortured him, and the main page has the picture to prove it. Even then Alistair survived it. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 02:53, May 24, 2013 (UTC)
Dean stabbed Alastair below the ribs, not in the stomach. And dean indicated that he was gonna kill Alastair with the knife right before Alastair freed himself from the trap. Alastair was resistant to the knife. That much is known. Whether he was immune like abaddon is never proven, so its not a fact. He was never stabbed in a vital area. Even Castile survived being stabbed with the angel blade. That doesn't mean he was immune to it. Azazel survived being shot in the leg with the colt. That doesn't mean he was immune cause that wasn't a vital area.
I just wanted throw this in. Just because Dean said he'll kill Alistair with the knife, doesn't mean that it'll actually kill Alistair with it. And when has Castiel ever been stabbed by the angel blade? I've only recalled him being cut by it, but not stabbed. If we're gonna use your logic, then that would mean that every single demon is resistent to the knife as long as they aren't stabbed in a vital area. Azazel was later shot near the shoulders with the Colt. It was nowhere near the heart and he died from the bullet wound. The exact same place Alistair was stabbed, twice even. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:05, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
So, "As Time Goes By" implied the knife is a Knife of the Kurds. Does that merit a rename? Or are we content with simply "Demon-killing knife"?--126.96.36.199 23:23, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
Mention of the new name on the page's first sentence may be enough, I think. We do not have enough information related to Kurds to explain how and why the Knife was named that way. FTWinchester (talk) 15:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
The First Blade Edit
Can it be assumed that the 'first' blade refers to the demon killing knives? the first may be to do with 'first born' but perhaps it was the first ever bladed weapon used by a human? or perhaps the kurds somehow used it as a template for creation of the lesser blades? afterall the first blade is just an upgrade.
The First Blade (with the possible exception of Death's scythe, that he probably fashioned quickly sometime after the creation of the Earth) was the first coherent weapon used in the act of aggression. The blade(s) the Kurds made have nothing to do with the First Blade. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:28 PM, May 26th 2014
Really? it just so happens that samual can craft a gun capable of killing anything, the kurds managed to craft blades with magical power enough to kill a demon when almost all hunters believed killing a demon was not possible? and it just so happened that the boys attempted to kill abaddon with a demon killing knife, only to find that the only thing that can is a stronger colt/demon killing knife hybrid like thing? If you can't acccept the blatant possiblility that deaths sythe, the colt, kurdish knives, angel/archangel blades and the first blade are linked somehow in some way then try looking between the lines.
and if it was fashioned after earths creation does it predate angel/archangel blades? as I have to wonder, why would angel need such weapons when they initially lacked corperal forms? and why even give them such powerful blades to begin with? what were the angels protecting themselves from? Leviathans? other deitites? eachother? did god know that angels were also flawed and needed an agressive output?
It seems highly likely tha the archangels were using thier blades in there aggressive war in agression before the first blade was either made or used, as cain was not a demon when the war happened, but the first blade can supposedly kill anything, even damaging angel more terribly that an angel blade.
the sort of power the super weapons posess to kill must come from somewhere, the ability to outright inflict death seems like a raw power used in differnt conentrations and associated with death, afterall, the sythe kills anything.
I think you're getting your timeline a bit mixed up (not entirely your fault, the new era really muddled up a lot of canon). The First Blade can not be an upgrade to the knife of the Kurds as the First Blade is the first weapon made and used by man. And since it was used by man, it most likely did not predate angelic weapons (although the opposite may still be true as Lucifer's rebellion happened after humanity was made, Lucifer's dialogue seem to indicate he rebelled from seeing Adam and Eve, which were Cain's parents). Angels are soldiers, so it makes sense for them to have weapons that are corporeal since they have enemies that are corporeal. As for the link among them, it is possible, but largely unsupported by canon. FTWinchester (talk) 12:25, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
Alastair isn't immune Edit
Alastair is at the very least highly resistant to the knife. If anybody actually believes Alastair could be killed by the knife after several attempts at incredibly vital areas, I recommend they watch the show again. The comparison of Castiel being shot in the stomach by the angel-blade-bullet and surviving was because Crowley planned to maim Castiel, not outright kill him. Alastair, on the other hand, has also been stabbed in the chest, to which he did not suffer lasting fatal injuries. If the blade could truly kill Alastair, Sam needed not to step in and use his powers to kill Alastair. Never mind that Alastair was more powerful than both Dean and Castiel--Sam and Dean have killed physically superior enemies with the proper weapon (i.e., staking deities and decapitating leviathans). In many cases, the knife did not appear to be a proper weapon to take down the white-eyed demon. FTWinchester (talk) 11:14, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Okay I'm here sorry about leaving, it was getting late where I live and I was getting tired. Thank you FTWinchester for helping out. As he he rightly put Alastair was stabbed three times, once in the Stomach, twice in the chest. So far such wounds have been leathal to all other demons stabbed prooving he's immune to atleast the killing effects, though it still clearly hurts him. Arguments he needed to be stabbed in a vital area I feel are unfound, and ignor the fact that as a demon he had no vital area's he was possessing a body but wasn't using any of the organs so why should being stabbed in the heart be any more leathal than being stabbed in the chest (granted being stabed in the leg or the arm wouldn't be leathal, as explained by demons possessing every part of the body, so to them an arm is still and arm and a leg is still a leg) but he had no use for the organs so where in the chest he was stabbed is really redunadant, as proved by other demons dying from being stabbed in the same places.
Onto the big about Alastiar's lines I would like to motion there is no indication from them he was talking about his heart, he just says ""close but not close enough" which could equally mean, close it hurts but not enough to stop me. Plus there is the fact he would have no way of knowing the specification or limitiations of blade, as he had no idea what it was as shown when talking to Ruby while torturing her, he specifically makes it clear he doesn't know what it is and asks her where she found it. As if he did mean the heart, he can not be taken as an accurate source, as he would have no way of knowing what effect it was would have.
And for an extra piece of evidence, there is the reaction of Abaddon, she took the stabing and survived cause she was immune (which you agree with as it is canon) and it caused her to fall over in pain, Alastair was still able to stand and fight while the knife was still in his body. He took it much better than she did, so how then can she be immune while he isn't? General MGD 109 (talk) 17:19, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Alastair isn't only more resistant to the knife because he is a high class demon, but because he is a master torturer, and used to the pain, as he is used to the pain of Hell. I'm sorry, but all your evidence is, is just plain assumption...it was never stated that he was immune, and he was never stabbed in a vital area to prove it...you bring up the fact that Crowley didn't want to kill Cas when he shot him in the stomach, yet neither did Dean! Dean put the knife slowly into his stomach to cause him pain, and to torture him...not to kill him. Sam only stepped in and used his powers, not because the knife wouldn't work, but because Castiel missed his heart, or another vital area. The knife landed in his upper right chest, right bellow the shoulder, missing his heart. Alastair then said "almost...looks like Gods on my side today" meaning that he almost got his heart, and almost killed him, but he got lucky. To say that this is only because he didn't know the blade couldn't kill him is pure speculation. With all the evidence from the show, you cannot say he is immune... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 18:31, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Isn't that just an assumption to? It was never stated Cain was immune either, because they didn't need to, its called showing not telling. Why would a vital area make any difference? Demons don't need blood pumped round there vessels, or ther host to be alive, so why should a vital area make any dfference. I didn't make that point, and I think comparing two different weapons, and two different types of weapons is flawed and irrelevant. What angel blades can do is not comparable to what this blade can do, cause there not the same weapon, they probably don't even work this way. No its not speculation, its speculation to say he would know what it could do, he is the transcript from "Heaven and Hell"
Alastair: "... But I do have to say... This knife of yours... It's an exquisite piece. You must tell me where you found it..."
He clearly doesn't know what the knife, so suggesting he woud know what its limitations are is pure speculation. Further more you ignore the fact that no other demon has survived being in the exact same places. The rules of the knife are simple, stab a demon and they die, unless there immune, no ands, ins or buts, its that simple. --General MGD 109 (talk) 18:49, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
You clearly haven't seen the show enough if you think they can be stabbed just anywhere and die! Meg stabbed Crowley in the same place as Alastair, and he survived. Dean shot Azazel in the leg with the colt, and he survived. Bobby stabbed a demon in the leg with the knife in "the man who would be king" and he didn't die...that proves you need to be stabbed in a vital place...and I wasn't saying that he knew the limitations of the blade, you said that him saying "almost" was because he DIDNT know the limitations of the blade, and that is pure speculation. Alastair said he got lucky, because Cass missed his heart, and saying that he only said that because he didn't know the power of the blade, is just speculation. It didn't need to be said that Cain was immune to the blade, because there was no orange/yellow light. You see that whenever someone stabs Alastair, there is the light. By the way, saying that the demon knife and the angel blade are two different weapons could backfire on you, because the angel blade can kill demons too, and is the more powerful weapon, so it is the same, comparison wise. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:03, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
- "I'm sorry, but all your evidence is, is just plain assumption"
- "Alastair isn't only more resistant to the knife because he is a high class demon, but because he is a master torturer, and used to the pain, as he is used to the pain of Hell."
No actually, THAT right there is an assumption.
- "he was never stabbed in a vital area to prove it."
I think you need to brush up on your vocabulary.
- "..you bring up the fact that Crowley didn't want to kill Cas when he shot him in the stomach, yet neither did Dean!"
You totally missed the point. I said in addition to being stabbed in the stomach, Alastair was also stabbed in the chest, twice. In one of those occasions, the knife was even twisted in its place.
- "The knife landed in his upper right chest, right bellow the shoulder, missing his heart."
Aside from vocabulary, please revisit basic human anatomy as well. You may miss the heart, but right around it are the lungs and among the largest veins and arteries that supply the heart. Any damage to those major blood vessels would cause fatal injury to the heart soon after. Besides, all of this is null as it has been shown that other demons stabbed in the chest die immediately regardless of the exact location, and even Azazel died from a shoulder wound from the Colt's bullet.
- "Alastair then said "almost...looks like Gods on my side today" meaning that he almost got his heart, and almost killed him, but he got lucky."
Open to interpretation. It could also mean the knife causes him pain and slows him down but not enough to actually kill him. If you downplay this exact part as an assumption, then the same thing basically goes to your claim. Interpretation is not always exactly strict, and in this case, context could mean either way. In fact, if we bring in Alastair's taunting and mocking in 4.10 Heaven and Hell, he also makes a similar comment about how Castiel's smiting does not affect him completely, where as finally, in a later confrontation in 4.16 On the Head of a Pin , Castiel managed to at least injure Alastair, hence the line, "almost".
Rewatch the episode, Azazel was not shot in the shoulder. Crowley was stabbed in the same place the Alastair was stabbed in twice, and he lived, but he isn't immune to the knife either. It did not puncture his heart or lungs. Him saying "almost, looks like gods on my side today" is pretty easy to understand, and obviously refers to Castiel missing. Cas twisting the knife would not have killed him either, it just caused him pain. When I said that he was more resistant to the knife because he was a master torturer, that was suppose to be an alternate explanation, and actually it isn't just an assumption. That's why the angels needed dean, because he was resistant to torture, and trained in that area. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:14, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
You clearly haven't seen the show enough if you think they can be stabbed just anywhere and die! Meg stabbed Crowley in the same place as Alastair, and he survived. Dean shot Azazel in the leg with the colt, and he survived. Bobby stabbed a demon in the leg with the knife in "the man who would be king" and he didn't die...that proves you need to be stabbed in a vital place.
No it doesn't, it just means that you need to be stabed somewhere in the chest or neck, as explained in "Torn and Frayed" when demons possess someone, they take overy part, so arms and legs are still arms and legs. Meg stabed Crowley with an angel blade, not the demon killing knife stop comparing them, there not the same weapon, by the same logic you could say an angel blade shouldn't kill angels cause Cas survived being stabbed by the demon killing knife.
Dean shot Azazel with the colt in "All Hell Breaks Loose" in the upper chest bellow shoulder, the same place Alastair was stabbed twice and he died. Bobby stabbed the demon possessing him in the lower stomach, lower than Alastair was stabbed in "Sympathy for the Devil" and the demon died. Sam stabbed a demon in the stomach in the same place Alastair was stabbed in "My Bloody Valentine" and the demon died. Dean stabbed demon in the upper chest bellow the shoulder same place he stabbed Alastair in "A Little Slice of Kevin" and the demon died. Proving Alastair was immune.
..and I wasn't saying that he knew the limitations of the blade, you said that him saying "almost" was because he DIDNT know the limitations of the blade, and that is pure speculation. Alastair said he got lucky, because Cass missed his heart, and saying that he only said that because he didn't know the power of the blade, is just speculation.
And saying he would know is equally speculation. Especially as I've alreaday proved he had no idea what the blade is, so he would have no idea what its limitations were.
It didn't need to be said that Cain was immune to the blade, because there was no orange/yellow light. You see that whenever someone stabs Alastair, there is the light
Yeah, okay they didn't outright Abaddon as immune in her first apperance, but she was and she still had the orange light. They didn't say he was immune to Iron, but he was, or that he was more resilent to holy water or salt, but he was. Its called showing not telling.
. By the way, saying that the demon knife and the angel blade are two different weapons could backfire on you, because the angel blade can kill demons too, and is the more powerful weapon, so it is the same, comparison wise.
No it can't, saying that they acomplish the same thing means they are the same is rediculous. A shotgun and a 9mm can do the same things, but because you survived a blast at close range with a 9mm won't mean you will do the same with a shotgun. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:17, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Being a master torturer doesn't immediately grant you high tolerance for pain. Sadism does not necessarily mean masochism, so yes, attributing his high resistance to pain as due to his role as a master torturer and not because of his innate resistance/immunity is an assumption, and a false one at that. The angels needed Dean to torture Alastair, and not kill him. In the two scenarios he was stabbed in the chest, the angels and the Winchesters were clearly gunning for kill, but they can't. We have a number of canon evidence to support that Alastiar is more immune than vulnerable and you call our side as nothing but assumptions. Yeah, okay. FTWinchester (talk) 19:21, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
This could go back and forth forever, so how about we try a simpler way? You sate 1 piece of evidence the Alastair is immune, and I counter it. You sate another one, I counter. And so on and son on. Basically 1 point per post Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:29, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Very well, to repeat myself: "Dean shot Azazel with the colt in "All Hell Breaks Loose" in the upper chest bellow shoulder, the same place Alastair was stabbed twice and he died. Bobby stabbed the demon possessing him in the lower stomach in "Sympathy for the Devil", lower than Alastair was stabbed and the demon died. Sam stabbed a demon in the stomach in the same place Alastair was stabbed in "My Bloody Valentine" and the demon died. Dean stabbed demon in the upper chest bellow the shoulder same place he stabbed Alastair in "A Little Slice of Kevin" and the demon died. Proving Alastair was immune." General MGD 109 (talk) 19:38, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Just to point out, it's very hard to tell where Meg stabs Crowley. This makes it look like she stabbed him in the arm and not the chest. http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/displayimage.php?album=174&pid=206176#top_display_media .L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:40, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Transcript of 4.09 I Know What You Did Last Summer.
- RUBY: No, Sam, you got to pull him right away.
- DEAN: Whoa, hold on a sec.
- RUBY: Now's not the time to bellyache about Sam going darkside. He does his thing, he exorcises that demon, or we die.
Know what other weapon they had at the time? The Knife. They even used it to stab Alastair in the chest (much closer to the heart) to little effect a few moments after. Go figure. FTWinchester (talk) 19:43, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
First off FTWinchester, that last point you made was pure speculation. Just because Ruby wanted Sam to use his powers, doesn't mean the knife wouldn't have worked. Anyways, Azazel was not shot in the same place Alastair was stabbed. He was shot much closer to the heart. In "a little slice of Kevin" it didn't show where dean stabbed the demon, because he stabbed him from behind. In all those other episodes when they stabbed the demons in the stomach, they stabbed them hard and fast, and actually wanted it to kill them, where as dean stabbed Alastair slowly and softly, because he DIDNT want to kill him, only cause him pain. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:58, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Pure speculation? I honestly always try to keep myself collected in debating other users but this is ridiculous. That is the official transcript of the episode, NOT my personal individual belief. You are so adamant on always calling your opponents' claim as nothing but 'assumptions' or 'speculations' when clearly, you also use assumptions in your arguments as well. Again, that is the OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT.
Ruby wanted Alastair incapacitated, she did not urge them to use the knife. It proved to be right. The next encounter, again they used the knife. Both of them, straight to the chest. The chest is a vital area. READ: VITAL. If you seriously argue about me on this matter, then you are just arguing for the sake of argument's sake. I am a nurse, so I know what vital means, especially when it comes to injuries. The second time they confront Alastair, they also resorted to the knife, which again failed. Everybody was planning to take him down and using everything against the white-eyed demon. Clearly, the knife isn't working. Is it really that hard to accept Alastair was immune to it, when he was clearly immune to an angel's smiting power (which I think many would agree is far superior than the limited kurdish knife?)? Stay deluded. I'm out of this. FTWinchester (talk) 20:06, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Pretty sure he actually was shot in the shoulder. We don't outright see it, but we can tell where stabbed the demon from what we do see. What should the speed of the wound make a differance? A stab wound is a stab wound, the momntum may be less, but it still penertrates just the same and in the same place. Further more how would Dean know where its safe to stab? Or Alastair for that matter, you have yet to explain how they would possess this knowledge considering neither of them knew what the knife was or what its limitations were. if you want another example there is Dean's suprise to Alastair actually surving being stabbed showing its not normal, or the fact I'm pretty sure Mrs Tran stabbed the demon in the shoulder in "Captives." The point is there are lots of examples of demons being stabbed in the same place and dying, yet Alastair survived showing he's immune. Further more its never been claimed that you need to stab in a vital area, except in that one quote by Alastair. And please don't got FTWinchester, you make such good points. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:09, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Screencap of Azazel with the bullet in him. Since when is the human heart that high up? At best, the bullet nicked Azazel's left lung. http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/albums/SPN2x22/SPN_1111.jpg L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:12, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
He won't and shouldn't be able to change the status quo anyway, given all these counters against him. I still vote against his edits, but I won't repeat myself anymore, if his only counters are "That's just assumption/speculation." Unless he no longer plans to be an admin and continue to edit against the consensus of the community, then things should be fine as it is.
First off, Ellis, the colt is different than the demon knife, and as you can clearly see, the impact of the bullet, reached out far beyond his heart, killing him. And the momentum of impact does matter, and can be a very big variable. And for the last time, IT DOES MATTER WHERE YOU STAB THE DEMON! They stab them in the arm, leg, knee multiple times without them dying, it needs to be vital! For the record, Mrs tran didn't stab the demon there in captives, she got his heart. And I am countering all your points, which most of them ARE assumptions! Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 20:21, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Funny, you were the one advocating different weapons earlier and the one who orginally mentioned the colt. That is true, but that doesn't mean it needs to be the heart, so far any where in the chest, stomach, neck and head has proven to be enough, very well I'll take your word for it, and you do so with your own assumptions backed up with nothing. And no, I don't. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:27, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome guys for the photos.
My God, Dean you are incredibly obtuse in your way of seeing other people's arguments. I see their points much better than yours in any shape or form. Frankly you're just grasping at straws now. I don't see how the impact of the bullet would matter in any form. The knife does the same thing when a demon is stabbed in a vital area, we pretty much see the demon's entire skeleton flash around. And I have not seen anybody saying that Alistair was not stabbed in a vital area. Multiple times FTWinchester has said that Alistair was stabbed in a vital area, which you conveniently ignore. And really, you consider our point assumptions but not yours? Someone has an ego problem. Everything you have said is speculation. Although I would give you one point in that Mrs. Tran stabbed the demon in the heart. http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/albums/SPN9x14/SPN_1349.jpg L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:39, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
I was talking about the angel blade, which has the same impact on demons as the demon knife. And yes, while I have some minor speculations, I also have canolocial evidence on my side, where as pretty much your entire argument is speculation. I do not have an "ego problem" and I am not "pulling at straws" I simply have to repeat my self, and show that what they are saying doesn't mean what they think it does. And where he was stabbed WASNT vital, because Crowley and other demons have been stabbed there and survived. Alastair said "Almost, looks like gods on my side today" that obviously means that Castiel almost killed him, but the knife missed his heart (AKA a vital area). To think anything else would be an assumption, and a faulty one at that.
1. Crowley and other demons were stabbed at the same place, so that isn't a vital area
2. The angel blade has the same effect on demons as the demon knife does
3. Castiel survived a angel blade bullet in his stomach, so stomach isn't always vital
4. Alastair said "almost" when Cass almost hit his heart
5. With everything stated above, he hasn't been stabbed in vital areas.
Well lets go through your points shall we.
1. Crowley and other demons were stabbed at the same place, so that isn't a vital area
By an angel blade, a different weapon. And as that picture shows he was stabbed in the arm not the chest so it doesn't matter.
2. The angel blade has the same effect on demons as the demon knife does
Irrelvent, its a different weapon, from a different source, that has different limitiations and nothing else in common.
3. Castiel survived a angel blade bullet in his stomach, so stomach isn't always vital
To an Angel, which is a lot tougher than a demon.
4. Alastair said "almost" when Cass almost hit his heart
You have yet to explain how Alastair would know the blade's limitations, considering he had no idea what the blade was.
5. With everything stated above, he hasn't been stabbed in vital areas.
The same area killed several other demons, and we can provide screen shots to prove it. Ergo, it was a vital area, both in real life and in fiction.
6. He is not immune.
And angel blade is to an angel as the demon blade is to a demon, so if Cas survived that, Alastair survived that. Him not knowing the limitations have nothing to do with this. We can't just assume...he said almost, so it almost killed him. You can't assume otherwise. And Crowley isn't the only one who was stabbed there... He...is...not...immune... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 21:29, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Yes...he...is. A flawed comparison, an angel blade will kill any spiritul (except of casue spirits) the demon killing knife only kills demons (and hellhounds, which are demonic). Yes it does, if he didn't know the limitiations, it knocks your enter argument out, as your only point in canon is his words. If he doesn't know, you literally don't have a leg to stand on. Name another example then? General MGD 109 (talk) 21:35, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Azazel was shot in the supposed "non-vital" area you so claim, I had picture evidence to show that it did kill him. You decided to spin it your way in saying that the effect of the bullet spread out. Why would the effect spread out near the shoulder but not at the leg? Why didn't the effects spread out from his leg and into his heart? Your argument there makes no sense. Unless the demon is wounded in the vital area, the effect of the Colt and the Knife will not spread out. Both the knife and the colt had the same effect when a demon is wounded in body parts not near the chest. When I'm seeing the points of General Mod and FTWinchester better than yours, that says a lot about your points.
1. Crowley was never stabbed in the same area. The picture is right there and I provided a link. It looks a lot more like he was stabbed through the arm and not his chest.
2. This argument doesn't work as Crowley was stabbed in the arm.
3. Wasn't the angel tablet within his stomach? But since Crowley didn't seem to be intending to kill Castiel, the would wasn't deep enough to kill him. Castiel managed to fish it back out in the end anyway.
4. Alistair had no idea if stabbing him directly in the heart would kill him or not. Both he and his superior, Lilith, have avoided being stabbed with a knife when Sam and Dean went to stab them with it.
5. Alistair was stabbed in the exact same area that Azazel was shot in. http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/albums/SPN4x09/SPN_0485.jpg http://www.homeofthenutty.com/supernatural/screencaps/albums/SPN4x16/SPN_0717.jpg
6. He is at least immune to the killing effects but not the pain like Cain was.
7. You have yet to provide evidence of other demons being stabbed in the same area Alistair and Azazel were. You believed Crowley was stabbed there, I showed otherwise.
Even if I have lack of evidence (which I don't) you still don't have any either. At this point Alastair saw what the knife could do, and saw that it could kill demons. All the evidence on the show says that the knife can kill him. Alastair and Lilith do all these can to disarm the person with the knife, they keep trying to kill him with it (but they miss). He is not immune.... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 21:41, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Once again you fail to answer are points. If you have all this evidence then please let us see it or except defeat and let us undo your edits. No it doesn't, we've already given you plenty of evidence that disagree's with that. He is immune the knife can't kill him, just as it can't kill Abaddon or Cain. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:50, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
That isn't evidence, it is speculation, and assumption. Only the knights are immune to it, and that is why they are so special. Is is more resistant to it, but it can kill him. I will admit the possibility that there are more areas he can survive than most demons, but he still isn't immune completely. Your evidence doesn't show that the knife can't kill him, it shows that he didn't die by the upper chest or the stomach. It is just as safe to assume that as a higher order of demon, he is more resistant to certain areas. Your evidence supports that the same amount as it supports him being completely immune. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 21:59, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any evidence? Nice for you to completely dismiss all of those picture evidence. How obtuse can one person be? All evidence on the show shows that the knife can kill ordinary demons. Again I posted picture evidence that Alistair was stabbed by the knife in the exact same area that Azazel was shot with by the Colt. And you did a poor job in refuting it. Seriously, you're coming off as an incredibly stubborn and argumentative.
You're also saying that just because it can kill demons it automatically means that it can kill Alistair. Again, Alistair had no idea if being stabbed in the heart would work or not. He had no personal experience that we've seen of him being stabbed directly in the heart.
Also adding, I think we're better off saying that Alistair and Abaddon are immune to the knife's killing effects, but not the pain or their reaction to the knife. Their wounds still flash with electricity when stabbed with it, but Cain showed no side effects.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:03, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Well put, indeed I think they've lost this argument, the fact they can't explain why other demon have been stabed in the same places adn died, while Alastair did it and survived doesn't mean he's immune. Or how he would know, as he didn't know what the knife was really weighs against them.
Did you not hear my last argument? I said that all the evidence you have given point to that as a high class demon, he is more resistant in certain areas than lower class demons, just as much as it points to him being immune to the knife completely. That means, that it is up to opinion, and both of them are valid. However, it is more of an assumption that he is immune to the killing effects completely, than just more resistant, in less vital areas. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 22:15, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
There is no reason for any of those areas to be any more vital, as he doesn't use any of them. Further more we can go the full way and say he's immune as there is no evidence to the contery. Nice talk by the way.General MGD 109 (talk) 22:21, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps you didn't understand what I said. Your evidence leaves us with two scenerios 1. He is immune to the killing effects of knife 2. Since he is a high class demon, some places are less vital....either of those options are possible, given all the evidence. But since they are both possible, we can't add that he is immune, because there is another plausible option. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 22:28, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Let me say it again, this time more clearly....your evidence doesn't prove that he is immune to the knife, and my evidence doesn't prove that he isn't immune to the knife....all of our evidence put together gives us those two scenarios. 1. He is completely immune to the killing effects of the knife 2. Because he is a high class demon, those places aren't as vital to him as lower demons.....since we can't prove which one is true, we can't put any of it on the wiki, because it would be speculation, between the 2 possible scenarios. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 22:51, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Okay let me say it again more clearly, I say my evidence does prove he's immune as there is no reason why some areas would be more vital than others, and as such if he survived them when it killed other demons, that makes him immune. If you can give me a reason your counter sinario works I'll listen but if not I claim victory. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:57, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
You can't "claim victory" if I don't give another reason, because the evidence is not pointing towards him being immune, it is a tie between the two scenarios. You have not proven he is immune, you have proven that he is either immune, or those areas aren't as vital to him, because he is a high class demon. Neither of them have been proven or disproven, so it is open for interpretation. Since neither are proven, neither of us win, so we can't put anything on the wiki. Both scenarios are possible, but we don't know which one is correct, so we can't put either of them on the wiki, or we would guessing which one is right, when they both have the same evidence. Both are possible, but none are proven, so none go on the wiki.... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 23:06, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
No, both scenarios aren't possible cause you can't give me a reason for why some areas would be more vital than others, when taking into account Demons don't need organs or there hosts to be alive for them to possess them. As such that pushes the evidence in the idea he is all out immune meaning I win. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:11, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
No, you don't win. I don't NEED a point to show why they would be less vital for him, because there is already the same evidences for that, that there is for him being immune. 1. He is immune 2. Because he is a high class demon, those areas are less vital for him...your evidence doesn't prove EITHER of those arguments, but it proves the possibility of both. You don't win. I don't win. Nobody wins. We don't add ANYTHING on the wiki, because it would be guessing between the two. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 23:23, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
Your missing my point, if you can't give me one then the second scenario doesn't work, meaning it has to be the first scenario, meaning I win. Look perhaps we've been going at this for to long, its been six hours since we started. Perhaps a break would be best, how about we take a pause think all this other and settle it later. What do you say? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:26, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
I agree, we can continue this later today, or tomorrow. And if we can't come to an agreement, I think I have a compromise for the wiki that would make us both happy. Anyways, respond when you feel we should start again. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 23:31, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
- "Oh no! People are using logic, canon evidence, and photographic proof against my points! I know what to do! Better recycle my points and just keep calling theirs' as assumption and speculation!"
- ABADDON || ALASTAIR
- stabbed in a vital area and survived || stabbed 3 TIMES in 2 different vital areas and survived
- IMMUNE || NOT IMMUNE
If you bothered to read the last few comments, you would know that I admitted I couldn't prove he isn't immune. All of the evidence that we both supported shows that there is 2 possibilities 1. He is immune to the killing effects of the blade 2. As a higher class demon, those places are less vital. They both are valid, and with the given evidence, it is open for interpretation. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 05:49, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
Why you would have to backpedal and discuss the nitty-gritty of what constitutes 'lesser vital areas' (especially to a health care professional who already assured you that the majority of the central portion of the chest is vital) instead of just plainly agreeing to the most simple and obvious explanation (he is immune) is beyond me. FTWinchester (talk) 12:53, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
Why did Dean still think he could kill Alastair with the knife even after knowing that the two previous times Alastair had been stabbed by it, once by him and once by Sam, Alastair did not die? It was seconds before Alastair broke out of the Davis trap, and Dean seems to have decided to kill Alastair and he had the knife in his hand iirc. What was Dean gonna do differently with the knife this time that had him thinking there was gonna be a different result. I.e a dead Alastair? The only thing I can think of is the area where he was gonna stab him. Whether he actually was gonna get a different result from stabbing Alastair in another Vital part(maybe Dean thought of going directly for the heart or head) is unknown, since Alastair was never stabbed in another different place again, but its suggested Dean thought so at least, giving insight into how Dean though the knife worked.
Why didn't the Kurds enchant and mass produce a whole kingdom's worth of weapons that can kill demons? Edit
Why didn't the Kurds enchant and mass produce a whole kingdom's worth of weapons that can kills demons, like was done with the demon-killing knife? -- ImperiexSeed, 5:04 PM, October 13th 2014
Why did Colt only build one gun? As we don't know how it was made, what it required to become enchanted or its limitations and resources whose to say. Perhaps they simply didn't have the resources to make more than a few, after all there is clearly more than one out there but there incredibly rare.
- I agree, a demon probably killed him/her before they could make another one. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:05 PM, October 13th 2014
Well, Henry said to even attempt to kill a demon you would need at least (an) ancient demon killing knife of the turds. He said an not (the) which means that least their are more than one, so maybe their were more. But we're either lost over time, destroyed, etc too many unknown factors to know for sure. [[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 00:53, October 14, 2014 (UTC)
- It may not even be possible to destroy Kurdish enchanted weapons excluding God, Death and archangels. If such weapons could be destroyed, Lilith and Crowley, for example, should've just disintegrated the knife with a thought or just sizzled it to dust, cause then that's one less weapon that can outrightly kill demons. The General's probably right, a demon probably just killed the person before more could be created. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:05 PM, October 13th 2014
Renaming to Demon Blade?Edit
In the season 12 episode of Celebrating The Life Of Asa Fox Dean calls it the Demon Blade. Should we rename it? After all the angel blades arent called Angel Killing Blades but simply Angel Blades. (User talk:The Inner Hate|talk]]) 10:28 PM November 17, 2016
- It doesn't have to be renamed. We can just add it on the introductory paragraph that it is also called "Demon Blade" and we could perhaps make a redirect page that goes back to this. The blade has been called a lot of things, we don't need to rename it everytime something new comes up (i.e., we did not change it to Kurdish knife or whatever it was that Henry Winchester called it). FTWinchester (talk) 13:55, February 24, 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah but i just thought that renaming it would be better bcs Demon Blade sounds more like it's the real name of the knife you know? The name demon-killing knife sounds like not even the characters really know it's name, for example like how we had to name the Fate-Killing Blade bcs we don't really know it's true name. Doctor49 (talk) 15:43, February 24, 2020 (UTC)
- You make a good case, but I think it could go both ways. It's been called Demon-killing knife for the longest time, and both names are pretty generic. FTWinchester (talk) 16:36, February 24, 2020 (UTC)
Demon-killing knife vs. Angel bladeEdit
I find it interesting how while a demon killed by the demon-killing knife kinda flickers out, an angel killed by an angel blade shines bright. It makes you wonder what other parallels there are. HLightning (talk) 18:10, February 5, 2018 (UTC)
I don't know if I'm the only one, but when I have stabbed in a Hell's Bride and see that she didn't die. However, she falls to her knees in front of unbelievably powerful damage, then I would at least presumeably or even most likely stab her in the neck or heart several times, just so that I can see if I can wear down her toughness/robustness. 188.8.131.52 22:18, May 9, 2020 (UTC)