Gods/Deities cannot be cannibalistic as the word cannibal means humans eating humans. Or members of the same species eating others of the same species.
Also deities in Supernatural worship doesn't grant, increase, or decrease their powers. (However some gods need tributes like the Vanir for the ritural) the reason is its part of their powers not about restoring them. Intruth it doesn't even help or harm them. And the deities are immortal as they don't age. I cannot comfirm which one but one of the Salute to Supernatural talks stated these things. Also at least about the not needing worship and none aging immortality its on the Supernatural Super Wiki.: The Twilight of Your Despair 12:48, August 25, 2011 (UTC)
I have just one question. Where was it confirmed that the gods were more powerful than the demons in Supernatural?
220.127.116.11 03:22, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
As a standard yes. On one of the Salutes to Supernatural which are cast&crew talks about the show's history, character's personality and history, aspects of the show and innate knowledge it was comfirmed.: The Twilight of Your Despair 03:59, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
Okay. And a second question: Who is this "Oberon (fairy god)"? Did he ever appear in a Supernatural episode or was he mentioned in the show??
Kali clearly states that she and the rest of the gods are older and were there long before God. Lucifer even confirms this by saying that God and the angels took Earth from them. How is it then that Death and God are listed as Primordial Gods when they clearly aren't. The only mention of how old they are comes from Death who says he and God are very old. Therefore the other Deities need to be placed in their proper section. This article needs a clean up.
From the transprict of 5.19 Hammer of the Gods.
KALI Your story. Not ours. Westerners, I swear. The sheer arrogance. You think you're the only ones on earth? You pillage and you butcher in your Gods name. But you're not the only religion, and he's not the only God. And now you think you can just rip the planet apart? You're wrong. There are billions of us. An we were here first. If anyone gets to end this world, it's me. I'm sorry. [KALI stabs GABRIEL with his own sword. GABRIEL screams, and in a flash of light, dies.]
Kali never states that she and the other deities are older. Just that they were worshipped and most likely actively on Earth long before God decided to appear on the planet he created. And once God's religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) became active the pagan deities and their religions became not as practiced to the majority of the human species. And with God and his Angels being stronger than pagan deities already, they effectively forfited the planet to God.
Also this is from the Super-wiki Mythological Arc Timeline
At some point in the distant past, God, Death, and the other deities come into existence.
If you want to see it for youself this is the link. http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Mythological_Arc_Timeline
- The Twilight of Your Despair 16:05, March 9, 2012 (UTC)
- I take back the part about them being older, that was a mistake. Thery're at least as old as them. However my points still stand. If God and Death are primordial gods then so are all the other deities, even by your definitions.
Needs a major rewrite Edit
Does anyone mind, if I make a major rewrite to this page, to clean it up, and bring it up to standard, aswell as remove all information regarding the Actual god (as this page is about false gods) and charaters that aren't gods? Because I really feel that someone should change this page, and no one else has. You have till tomorrow to state your disagreements, if not I start. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:17, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
- My, my, my. As an eidtor, you are eligable to to contribute here by editing - heck, you're encouraged to. However, removing the ino that talks about the Creator can stay; he is a deity, af ter all. I'll review it after you're done. Happy editing! -- ImperiexSeed, 4:23 PM, October 16th 2012
- Okay, I'll do it tomorrow, as I have to go soon, and sure I look forward to hearing what you think. I still slightly disagree with including God on this page, as he's isn't just a deity, he's the deity, he's the only true god, all the others, are simply self proclaimed, powerful creatures, there all false gods. But if you want him to stay, I'll leave him. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:25, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
- In Supernatural inverse, deities is a race - a species. In real life, they would be considred what you call, false gods'. But, since he is a deity, he shouls stay on the page. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:30 PM, Octiber 16th 2012
Ok, and before I get my head cut off I am going to point out that I am Catholic completely. Now then, thats out of the way I want to address this. In the series God is a Deity" in the series the pagans as Lucifer call Mercury's kind are deities. But to God and his Angels, Leviathan, they are not that important. But you shouldn't call them false as despite my own views as a Catholic you shouldn't openly state that. Yes, your opinions General and ImpreiexSeed are respected and I am not asking you to change them. But you must do the same for those that still worshipping the old or pagan gods, some worship the universe as a god, or Atheism that doesn't worshp any god. Personally, I worship my God that I was taught in Catholic faith, and while I pity those that worship other gods I don't think less of them, I don't hate them, nor do I call their gods monsters, demons, or even evil. Also, about God. Yes, it's a common notion to call him a deity and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's not exactly correct either. By the ORIGINAL old testament God is the ALL, the Ultimate, the Original One. He is called a Deity as all the concepts and power he is well above requirement of a god. So while we call him a deity he is eternally beyond that.
Now more for the series point. Ok, these gods aren't like most common fiction ones. Infact most are like monsters yes with few more respectable gods like Atropos. They naturally are just cut above most demons, like an intermediate species between demons and angels. And when feed or give tribute the rituals increase their powers. But, God is a Deity just in the series he is without a doubt the oldest (meaning he is at least as old as time, but most likely older) the strongest (this represents him being all powerful) and omnipresent, (as he can be everywhere but doesn't choose to.)
In summation, yes this page needs a face-lift like bad. But, God should stay as he is worshipped in Judeo-Christian faith. And one must have factor to be a god/deity is to be worshipped. As in some religions some worship demons, monsters, spirits, animals etc as gods. Like take Buddhism the Deva which are the closest things to gods, but aren't immortal (meaning none aging) and are bound by Samsara the six paths of rebirth. In Shintoism Kami translate to god or spirit. They worship ancestors, nature spirits, souls, even similar western creatures that are demons in western views. Some of the earlier gods were worshipped as more heavenly rather just nature spirits like the Greek gods. Finally, I think that God's information should be on this page but should have it's own sections. The pagan gods should have their own section. And ANY information that relates to both like standard information should be under one section.--[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 23:57, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
Reclassification of pagan categoriesEdit
Kudos to whoever classified the known pagan gods to appear in Supernatural, but there is a category of 'Pagan' (the Carrigans) already under the 'Pagan Gods'.
The Pagan catagory is used here, to determine gods, which religon we do not know as it was never stated. The Carrigans are Hola Nickar, which if my memory serves me correctly is teutonic belief, but that can't be written as it wasn't stated in the show. And as Beau's real name or religon wasn't revealed we don't know which religon he belongs to either. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:18, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe we could use 'unidentified' or 'undetermined' instead?
Disambiguation of PaganEdit
Please clarify the operational meaning of Pagan in this page. One of the modern meanings of Pagan is one who does not follow any of the world's major religions. Hinduism is one of the five great religions of the world, so Kali and Ganesh may have to reclassified. Unless we (1) use the 'Deities of Polytheistic religions', or any other appropriate substitute, or (2) clarify that by pagan we mean polytheistic religion, Kali and Ganesh may not be called Pagan.
Hindu is under paganism, but under a different meaning of it.
Historical PaganismEdit Further information: Prehistoric religion and Polytheism===Bronze Age to Early Iron Age=== Religions of the Ancient Near East Ancient Egyptian religion Ancient Semitic religion Mesopotamian religion reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion Proto-Indo-Iranian religion historical Vedic religion This is why its under Paganism. As it's a Prehistoric religion which is a general term for the religious beliefs and practices of prehistoric peoples. More specifically it encompasses Paleolithic religion, Mesolithic religion, Neolithic religion and Bronze Age religion. However, as Hinduism is commonly since as monotheism in some senses, it often thought as pagan.
Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and atheism among others. But Paganism it's really just an umbrella term with loose meanings. Heathen is other common word for those of none Judeo-Christian faith. As if you go to China, India, or Japan and call their beliefs pagan most will take offence to this as pagan is an European term. This is just me clearly anymore confusion.--[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 02:42, October 24, 2012 (UTC)--[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 02:42, October 24, 2012 (UTC)
It's quite disgusting as a Catholic to find other people that follow the same religion as me, refer to other religions as having false or pagan gods. This is considering the fact that these religions have existed centuries and millenia before ours. Sorry if I haven't been as indoctrinated as much as you fanatics by my religion but i think it is you guys that should be pitied for having these views. I'll be editting this article myself as everyone else around here is either delusional and unqualified to do so.
- //Okay, first off, just above this post is a disambiguation discussion to clarify the meaning of 'Pagan' just so no Hindus are offended. I was the one who posted that and I happen to be Catholic. Second, the mere fact you mispelled 'editing' means you probably are unqualified to rewrite this as well, not to mention definitely not qualified to call us delusional.
- I think misspelling one word hardly makes me unqualified. Although if you find anymore then please do tell me. I think it just means I need to proofread my work first. However I think anyone that's read some of the posts on this talk page will feel the same way I do. When someone refers to Deities from living religions as 'false gods', you have to wonder where they're at really. I had directed that comment at those people who felt the need to insult other world religions. If you weren't one of those people, then my post didn't concern you. Nonetheless, I do not wish to keep fighting with you on this matter so I think we should just leave it here and focus on the article instead.
Good, nice to see this was fixed before it got bloody. But, I agree that calling other religions names and their deities/gods false isn't right. However, you cannot force others to respect other religions only to not let their own views affect how the article here is written so it's not filled with bias or opinions. I myself am Catholic and also have a minor in Mythology and Religion Studies, the word pagan was really only used for the older religions and cults of Europe like Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic etc. However, the Church added it on years later to all those that didn't belong to the religion of Christianity. This is why people think the Catholic Church is corrupt, and in the past they would be right somewhat.
Example, would be this. In 609, the Byzantine emperor Phocas gave the building (The Roman Temple the Pantheon) to Pope Boniface IV, who converted it into a Christian church and consecrated it to Sancta Maria ad Martyres, now known as Santa Maria dei Martiri: "Another Pope, Boniface, asked the same [Emperor Phocas, in Constantinople] to order that in the old temple called the Pantheon, after the pagan filth was removed, a church should be made, to the holy virgin Mary and all the martyrs, so that the commemoration of the saints would take place henceforth where not gods but demons were formerly worshipped." I find that calling the former worshipped gods, demons is beyond corrupt. Just because there not your gods doesn't give you the right to insult religions. Infact during longer periods of time when Rome was a Pagan Empire they had longer times of religion acceptance of all religions that when Chistianity was the main religion. Infact few religions worship demons as gods and in those they don't use the western views that demons are hellish creatures. In summation, while pagan is a lose term it the common one used in almost all the episodes that have deities in it so we have to use.--[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 15:18, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
Unnamed Gods Edit
In season 5 episode 18 'hammer of the gods' there are at least 3 gods that I noticed went unnamed and had no role to play, lucifer not even seen killing them, im just curious as to who they are, at the dinner table, there is a blonde girl, one on the end of the right side and one sitting to the right of odin that I can recall, they all have name tags, can anyoneone zoom in enough to make out thier names????
18.104.22.168 07:06, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
oh btw that was by me.
- Honestly, I was curious on that myself. I don't know why you'd make a heading here about it, I mean, they were tilted in such a way that they couldn't have been identified by their name tags. I'd imagine they either left or Lucifer slaughtered them like the rest, but seeing as Kali, one of the most powerful pagan Deities couldn't leave, I thinks it's easy to conclude that they were disemboweled. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:41 PM, November 28th 2012
- I saw a comment a few months ago about the blond haired woman possibly being Isis but I doubt i'll be able to find it again. Also her and at least another one of the unnamed Gods were murdered by Lucifer in the Hallway scene, so apart from Kali, I don't think any of the other Gods survived. Just a note Imperiexseed, but Kali was able to leave, she just chose to stay back and fight Lucifer. It was the two Winchester boys and Gabriel that couldn't leave, because of Kali's blood binding spell. 22.214.171.124 23:13, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Respectfully your wrong, fighting was her intension through out the episode, but when lucifer arrived and she realised how outgunned she was, she tried to leave, but Lucifer stoped her, there is a line where dean says get us out of here, and she says we can't, he's stopping us, just before the masacar really starts, check the transcripts if you don't belive me. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:24, December 3, 2012 (UTC)
- Um, actually, I'm not wrong--Baldur, referencing himself and Kali, said they couldn't just zhazam (themselves) Dean or same out of the building. I don't recall them being that elaborate in dialogue, General, but it was pretty clear with Baldur's comment. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:54 PM, December 3rd 2012
Trickster abilities Edit
Twilight despair 5, is there a reason why you put back in that tricksters can make time loops? Where is your evidence?
Well there was the fact Sam, Dean and Bobby, didn't find anything odd about a trickster being able to do it, surely if the power was beyond the race, atleast one of them would have brought up, that this trickster seemed to powerful. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:20, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Gabriel is something far more powerful than a Trickster. That is not being question. But I left it possible that Trickster can possess the power to make time-loops. As Gabriel said being a pagan god or Trickster was his witness protection, so he had to use the powers normally associate with them. Also, Sam said in Mysteroy Spot when he figured out Gabriel/Trickster was doing he said There is only one creature powerful enough to do what your do. Making reality out of nothingness sticking people in time-loops. infact you would have to pretty much a god, you have to be a trickster." Yes, it's also possible that trickster cannot, but I wrote it that they might have this power.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 21:22, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
The thing is that the way you wrote it in the article makes it sound as a matter of fact, when in reality we dont know. Sam and dean had never encountered a trickster before gabriel, so they probably didnt know much about a true tricksters capabilities. Sam and dean also did not find it odd that what they thought was a trickster was creating alternate realities. Castiel had to be the one to tell them that this power was beyond a tricksters. They just didnt know any better. As it stands there is no evidence tricksters can create time loops. Than, it stands there is no evidence that tricksters cannot either. When you stand something cannot do something, it's no different than they can without evidence to support it. But, I'll go back and make it sound either or , which I thought I did, but I'll change it.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 21:36, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
It is speculation that they can do it. If you are gonna put what they may be able to do, then why stop with time loops? Why not put that they may have a killing touch to kill demons and monsters? There is no evidence that they dont have a killing touch. Does that mean we should put that in? No, because it is speculation since there is no evidence for it. I am removing the time loop reference until evidence is brought up in favor of it.
- I don't see how this is not solved with statements like, "As the Archangel Garbiel was only masquerading as a Trickster, it is unclear whether or not real Tricksters can actually create time loops." FTWinchester (talk) 17:50, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Because it is known that Gabriel, while disguised as a trickster, used powers beyond that of a trickster. That is how castiel was able to figure out that they were not dealing with a trickster, and found gabriel out. Though the brothers were clueless about the powers discrepancy.
- But that single instance alone does not prove that all other works of Gabriel as Loki were not within trickster limits (and that instance was not even about time-loops). I mean, sure, even Kali knew Gabriel for who he was--but think about this: majority of the deities did not. Had Gabriel been using archangel-level powers all the time, he would have raised a red flag. The fact that many other deities did not suspect him as an archangel means he was playing it safe some other times. Thus, the neutral statement on the lack of clarity whether time loops actually fall within or outside trickster limits. FTWinchester (talk) 19:33, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
My point was just that he went beyond trickster limits with the winchester brothers in that instance, so he could have done it before, especially since he had an interest in the brothers, and especially since the brothers were clueless about tricksters before they met gabriel, so they would have been none the wiser. As far as we know, he was not known to stick people in time loops before. Tricksters weren't known to have that power in lore.
- "My point was just that he went beyond trickster limits with the winchester brothers in that instance, so he could have done it before." True. Now, can you tell me, of all the things Gabriel-as-Loki did in the course of the show, which are within trickster-levels, and which are not? If you have completed that list and correctly identified and justified them to me, then I will not bother stepping in this edit war anymore. But until you cannot be sure which instances Gabriel broke his limits, I say we stick to the neutral statement that it is unclear whether tricksters can OR cannot create time loops. FTWinchester (talk) 21:55, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
God of Thunder Edit
Were is Thor? He did not appear with the other gods in 'hammer of the gods' along with Odin and Baldur, and his hammer was seen in that auction house, and sam actually used it on Bau, and that other god, villi? with great effect, and then, oh of course he went and left it behind because he is an idiot, like they never went back for the colt either.
But why did thor not have his beloved hammer with him? I hope his absence does not imply him to be dead, or has it been said otherwise, or has he been mentioned???
Its quite possible Thor's dead, after all a lot of Deities seem to be. On the other hand he could have simply lost the hammer (that did happen every so often in the mythology) and he never found it, or perhaphs that's why Vili wanted it, he wanted to give it back to his grandson. From what we've seen most patheons have split up by this point (heck most of them didn't even get on in the myths) so him not turing up with his father and brother isn't proof anything. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:11, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Well, ok but, thor is not vili's grandson, he is vili's nephew, as Vili and Ve are the brothers of Odin and the sons of Bor, and Bor is the son of Buri, the first of the asgardians.
I think it was an inside joke that Sam resembled our generation's Thor (Marvel movies), so instead of having the deity appear, they just used Sam as the reference. FTWinchester (talk) 00:52, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
Ok, can someone explain to me, in the supernatural universe is Gabriel the only Loki ( as in every account of Loki was actually Gabriel undercover and he invented that persona) or was there already a Loki and Gabriel replaced him by either killing him or imprisoning him. Because if he did replace Loki then how come the other gods didn't wonder why Loki was suddenly much more powerful and looked different? However, if he has always been Loki, then how did he get the reputation of being Odin's son as Odin obviously didn't concieve Loki/Gabriel and therefore he and the other Norse gods would know that? Any ideas?
That's probably the fault of the show's crew, I guess. They might've wanted Gabriel to be a trickster-prank-playing being and who is the most notorius trickster of them all ? Loki. Supernatural is just a show. The sh ow only uses religious myths loosely. So they take certain liberties with the myths and alter them to the show's benefit. Don't put much thought to it.ME$$AIAH 16:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)RaghavD
Now there's no reason to assume that there ever was a Loki, Gabriel jumped ship sometime before the norse myths were even created, its likely he's been playing Loki since the begining. To answer your question, in the actual Myths, Loki isn't the son of Odin, he's the son of the frost giant Laufey, he and Odin were friends, and virtual brothers (right up until Loki betrayed him and murdered Balder) or so the myth goes. The idea he is Odin's son (in some form) was popularised by the marvel comic, who wanted to but a cain and able spin on thor and his arch nemisis. All Gabriel would have to do, is turn up to the other Norse gods, introduced himself as Loki, make up a story and then carry on, as a trickster god no one would be to surprised at his powers, plus he presumably only uses a more limited ammount arround them. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:06, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
I tried to change the bit about god being different than others because it reeked of bias. I tried to edit it, to make it nuetral sounding. So before anyone goes and changes my edit back, I suggest a discussion as to why should that section be left sounding full of BIAS. I have nothing against anyone's beliefs. Just trying to make it less offensive to others. Do not quote real world beliefs nor bring your personal prejudices into the matter. RaghavD Taking the ROAD less travelled 12:31, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
I personally had little to do with the particular section but here's my 5 cents on the matter. Perhaps describing him as a separate class from the others were unnecessarry and baseless, but he has been shown to be more powerful by a large extent in the series. One thing, creation of most of the known universe was attributed to him, and an archangel created by God easily overpowered deities from other Pantheons. In canon, there are also pagan deities who acknowledge God's superior potential--Atropos (a pagan deity herself, working for Heaven), and Beau, who quoted, "Our next lot, the Word of God...capital "G"," reflecting how capitalization of "G" in the word "god" would indicate or connote the premier deity. (Eve, who is to monsters as how God is to men, also acknowledged or referred to God as the maker of men. The Leshi had no qualms that of all the versions of the apocalypse that was going to happen, it was the Judeo-Christian version, and unlike the deities that assembled in the hotel, the Leshi did not care to put a stop to it.) I am catholic, yes, but believe me, I am one of the contributors here who advocates staunchly against real-world lore/belief bias, especially on the topic on Death reaping God. However, there are several canon events and descriptions that support the statement that the Abrahamic God, is indeed more powerful than deities of other pantheons. FTWinchester (talk) 13:25, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
- "God, according to numerous other beings (including extremely powerful ones like the archangels and even Death) is known to be all-powerful". This bit was already present and hence I felt that again mentioning "The most powerful deity" bit wasn't necessary. What do you think? RaghavD Taking the ROAD less travelled 13:41, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
- How about this. Credited and believed to be the most powerful deity.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 17:23, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
Remove God Edit
As it keeps causing so much trouble, so many rewrites and so much personal and religious bias, shouldn't we just remove God from this page? I don't get why he's included on this page in the first place, he doesn't belong to the same class as the other gods on this list, and asside from the fact he had worshipers he doesn't share anything with him and as far as we know is he's not of the same species. I wanted to remove him why I completly rewrote this page about a year ago, but I got talked into letting it stay, but following all these problems its causing, I'm happy to repush my views. So do any of you disagree with me? General MGD 109 (talk) 19:30, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
I think he should remain on this bases. That this article is a collective page of all pagan gods, and other beings viewed in any canon subject as something of a deity, Ex how Lucifer and Eve are somewhat view by some if not all their respected creations. If you remove God from this page, he isn't a deity then, as this article is called Deities Not pagans or pagan gods. And the term deity is a base word for anything, regarded as a deity, whether it be a god, spirit, monster, angel, or even a demon like Samahain. Just I think that, the God section should be rewritren as this.
God is a deity who serves as the central icon of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). He like other deities is immortal, and has existed since the beginning of time alongside Death.
This way it doesn't overtake his power and authority, nor does it say that Death or the pagan are older or stronger or directly weaker. Any of those facts are going to be listed through the information on the pagan sections of the deities powers, as well on the history of each of God's and Death's pages.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 21:31, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
I like how you worded it, Twilight Despair, but it doesn't make much sense to me for us to avoid saying the Abrahamic God is more powerful when he clearly has been shown to be so in canon, and even acknowledged by some pagan deities (please see my citations in the above section--Atropos, Beau, Eve, and Death have referenced God's superiority one way or another, directly or otherwise). Being neutral and avoiding real-life bias in creating our articles is one thing, but as General has pointed out, the show's canon itself is biased to the Abrahamic God. This would be just as bad as saying Death could not reap God because denying God is the most powerful deity in the show directly contradicts canon. Filtering the info out from the deities page but including the info on separate pages would be pointless, because the bias is still there, and will always be, since out source itself is biased. FTWinchester (talk) 21:46, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree with FTWinchester, I understand trying to remain neutral not to cause bias is very important, but if the source material itself is bias then theres nothing you can really do about it. And yes this show is Bias towards the Abrahamic God. A lot of shows are bias one way or the other, purely because who ever writes the show like to put there own beliefs and ideals into there creations, but that normally doesn't really matter, it is fiction after all, its only when its really offensive to someone its a problem. All in all, FTWinchester is right, trying to remain PC with a shows thats not is virtually impossible, expecially when you only focus on one page out of about thirty. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:06, July 27, 2013 (UTC)
Ok I have no problem detailing God's greater power as its canon. But on the (God) section just state in the best no opinioned word that he the strongest deity, with not every other sentence being about that. As the underline point he is a god, just not a pagan one and worlds more powerful, but still a deity and this page is about all deities.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 00:53, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I think that would be best. On the God Section, we state canon information toward his superior power and status. But we don't overdo it and state it to the best of our abilities that it's not (our) opinion, but facts in the series, as this page is about the deities as a whole. The pagan or other cultured gods, the beings that have a deity's status via by some standard like, Examples Eve as her role as the Mother of All or Lucifer for creating demons and being so powerful, and God (as his power and status is separate from the other examples of deities or beings of deity status.).[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 16:25, July 28, 2013 (UTC)
- You, then, misunderstand the purpose of this page. If I remember, I created it - for the purpose of documenting each and every deity in Supernatural, which would include, wait for it, wait for it. ....God. And, to be fair, none of these deities can be considered of the same species. They're just related in that they're gods, with the one true God. This page has really gotten out of hand. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:31 PM, July 29th 2013
- The page is supposed to be of every deity seen/mentioned on Supernatural. But going by the number of times the word PAGAN has been spilled on the page, anyone would assume that it is only about Gods from other religions, thus eliminating the need for God to be mentioned at all. RaghavD Taking the ROAD less travelled 16:42, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Well its difficult to do anything about that, they make up the majority of the contence, at the end of the day there is only One God (in the show of course) and the other potential millions are all pagans, as such it makes sense to designate almost all of the page to them, don't you agree. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:03, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
- God is absolutely a deity. Well, yes, but that would be like saying, "oh, let's designate the whole Angel page to Castiel because he's appeared the most." That type of thinking should be avoided. Supernatural differs in that there's truly more than one God existing, but He who is holy is still a God. For instance, Raphael appeared more than any other Archangel (not counting Lucifer's in Season 7), but Michael's still an Archangel. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:08 PM, July 29th 2013
- I suppose, but thats a bit of a streched example. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:44, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Neither of those examples are stretched. If we're going to lump, say, Mercury with gods we should do the same for the I Am. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:48 PM, July 29th 2013
- That is the type of comment RaghavD that will make other's mad, and report to wikia staff. And believe me it's not pretty, when they have to deal with an issue. Putting God on the deities pages, on a ficition series even if the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are the base for the series lore, and calling it blasphemous is a real-life bias. And that is my point, even if the series is bias, we have to write the (canon) information in an unbias manner. I myself am Catholic and I have no problem putting God in his own section on the page, as the series isn't real-life. But, you didn't remove him and re-listed him, and gave him credit as the strongest deity. So I won't undo the edit. Just please next time wait until the depate is finished, and everyone or the majority census agrees on something, if it takes to a depate.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 18:58, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
- As am I, all I can gather is RaghavD has already removed all mention of God from the page before a descision had been made. 126.96.36.199 01:02, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
- @Anon: I didn't remove all traces of God actually. If you see the edit history I added him in the Powers and Abilities section instead of a separate section for him. Anyway I undid my edit.
- @TD5: I'm not a Christian, so I was not aware that my message would be construed that way. I'm sorry and I will definetely think twice before using such words.
- This is for all the editors: There are 2 ways this page can be edited.
- Since this page is about Deities and we have the word PAGAN in almost every line of the page, I fail to see the need for a section on God. I ask that we remove the section pertaining to God.
- If the above point seems offensive to the Christians, I ask that we remove all traces of the word PAGAN and just call them deities. This paves the way for God to be included. But that will again stir up another question: A separate section or not? I say No, since he is a Deity first and a separate section seems moot. Your comments below please. RaghavD Born Sinner, the opposite of a Winner 04:31, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
- Ok this getting out of hand. So I am going back to policy of canon information. As this wikia is for canon information about the show Supernautral. And God is credited as a deity by his own creations, Angels and Humans. Eve Kali indirectly called him a god. If this page was about, pagan deities ok, but then were would hear about that calling ever other religion pagan. Example eastern religion icons like in Shintoism pagan is often seen as offensive. As pagan is a European term, and really just an unbrella one at that. So, I am going to redo God in the page. As it's not needed to have a page, just about pagan gods, if the beings of god-like status like Eve and Lucifer are added on the page. As any which way you cut it, God is credited as a deity and the page is listed deities. But, I will message general to directly separate the pagans, beings of god-like status and God from each other on the page. And while another page on another site the super wiki deities page on Supernatural Wikia does the same thing.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 05:20, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
- The way you worded it (in the edit on the page) is laudable. I like it the way it has been presented so there is no question of undoing the edit, @TD5. RaghavD Born Sinner, the opposite of a Winner 05:41, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
- Well RaghavD in response to your two suggestions, I did agree we should remove good at first (and to an extent I still do,) however this page also holds beings held as gods (such Eve, Lucifer and Samhain) all of which are not (except perhaphs eve) so if we do go down that road and make this page simply for Pagans (which I'm personally leaning towards) we will have to remove them as well. Which I don't really mind.
- For your second option I don't think we can remove the word Pagan (pandon any offensive caused by the use of said word) as it is straight out of the show, any time that there used there always called "Pagans" Sam's done it, Dean's done, Bobby's done, Lucifers done it, heck they even refered to themselves as it aleast once of twice. Its even included in the opening quote for the page.
- As I've already said I'm leaning towards your intial idea, as otherwise we will have to rewrite the whole page to incoperate God with them, as all the information save for the paragraph about him and one section is dedicated to the Pagans. There is also the fact the opening statement speaks specifically about the pagans rather than all beings held as deties. As such I think the easiest and quickest thing to do is simply rename the page and remove all the information about God and false gods. However there maybe certain issues with doing this. So I recomend hearing everyone's elses responses before any action is taken. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:26, July 31, 2013 (UTC)
Kali's claim Edit
|Your story. Not ours.|
The neutrality of this article in its current state is questionable.
Just my 5 cents on the matter. Kali's claim could be interpreted in several ways and may or may not be accepted as canon depending on the interpretation.
i. She could mean they were the oldest (which would make her claim invalid)
ii. She could be pertaining to their religions (which is valid)
iii. She could mean they were on Earth first (also potentially valid, as this claim is closely related to ii, and we have had no evidence to say from the series that God was ever on Earth--as far as I can remember. We do know God made Earth but never in the series was it mentioned God arrived on Earth before the pagans. Jesus Christ arrived on earth, as supported by Eve in And Then There Were None, but that would also mean that the pagans were on earth first. This does not in any way claim they are older than God, just that God was never personally on earth first, before the deities arrived and established their religions.)
So depending on our consensus, we could note in the article that Kali's claim have several interpretations, instead of just picking a personal interpretation and forcing it into the article. We could accommodate all claims to be somewhat fair, although we also have to take note that that does not mean all of the interpretations would be canonically coherent. FTWinchester (talk) 00:45, October 16, 2013 (UTC)
I don't know why we always have to keep rephrasing things (which cause confusion and bias-conflict) when we can just clear-cut plainly state that it was only a claim, and thus could be true or false. Like what I said above, we never had canon God actually stepped out of Heaven and walked the earth before the pagans did, so Kali's claim could still be true. FTWinchester (talk) 04:18, October 19, 2013 (UTC)
Once again people fail to separate fact and fiction, causing an edit war. I liked how you phrased it, FTWinchester (before General's edit). My opinion is that the statement by Kali, was a failed attempt by the writers to appease viewers of all faiths. They make it sound vague and open to multiple interpretations. It's better to just lock this page after a proper (and hopefully final) consenseus. RaghavDAll I need is ONE life, ONE try, ONE breath, I'm ONE man 05:09, October 19, 2013 (UTC)
I agree, if you think this page is bad now, you should have seen what it looked like before I gave it total overhall. As for why I keep, I would to state for the record it not bias that motivates me, I simply trying to follow the series Cannon. Kali's statement has been controdicited multiple times throughout the show and there is nothing ever said to back it up, I agree it was probably a misguided attempp to appease viewers of other faiths, which I think was not a good idea (don't get me wrong, I have no problems with other faiths or anything, but this is only fiction and defying your own canon simply out of fear of causing offence after doing pretty much the same thing so many times before is pretty cowardly in my opinon.)
My other main problem with including it, was that line bellow it, states God is the oldest being in the universe (along with death) so inessence the page was controdicting itself only one paragraph later. The way it is, is probably the best way, I recommend just locking it, and adding more details as the arrive. Because this is probably always going to be a hotspot. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:07, October 19, 2013 (UTC)
I think that clearly indicating that one statement is a claim does not invalidate any other seemingly contradicting statements in the same article. On one topic, several claims and perspectives always exist. Just because we acknowledge the existence (not the validity) of a claim, does not mean that we invalidate all other claims. Just like our own views on the matter for example--we all have different interpretations. We can acknowledge Kali's claim, but not necessarily validate the claim. It's just a matter of choosing your words carefully to identify which statements are true and which ones are just claims. We can't exclude claims just because they are false--they were still mentioned in canon and thus deserve to be mentioned. FTWinchester (talk) 13:11, October 20, 2013 (UTC)
Really I thought that all claims were disproven were removed, like Metatron being an Archangel. Or God throwing Lucifer into the cage. There referanced but only to say they were disproven. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:26, October 20, 2013 (UTC)
God Equivalents Edit
The big problem I keep having in the show, is the way they show Gods, perticularly Greek and Roman ones, interchangebly, like the way we met Mercury the roman form of Hermes, while later, rather than bring in Minerva and Jupiter, they used the greek versions of Aphrodite and Zeus. To most, they might seem like the same deitity but, being a mythology specialist, I know that Roman myths often merge a few greek ones into one of their own, hence why the romans have less gods who are oddly, less described, but I know for instance, despite the fact that the roman's pretty much copywright frauded the greek Gods, their less interesting counterparts are not always the same, Aphrodite is the godess of war and the hunt, the war of defense, as opposed to Ares helping the invaders on the offensive, while Ares roman counterpart, Mars, aswell as being a much more revered God, due to the militeristic aspect of the romans, in fact only second to Jupiter as opposed to ares relatively minor role, Mars seems to absorb the aspects of both Aphrodite and Ares into a singular War God, while Minerva, despite still being warrior like, is more related to protection and wisdom.
But in show, they switched to and forth, most recently bringing in the Roman Vesta, so i have to get to to question of discussion, in that are we to accept that both panatheons exist independantly or both the Roman and Greek gods are mixed into a exclusive, in-show pantheon???
So you think Hermes exists or did exist? how many greek gods appeared in hammer of the Gods? was Mercury the only Roman God present?? if they both exist, I would love to see Mercury fight Hermes, not going to happen though now, but I really wanna ranks ranks within the reapers, like a seraph like level based on the likes of the God primordial death, Thanatos, perhaps calling them 'thanatons' or something.
Answering that is a lot like answering 'Did Loki ever exist in Supernatural?'. I cannot answer it but because the show clearly identifiies them according to origin, then that should suggest that both pantheons exist. Can you tell me if your gripe really has to do with the Roman pantheon existing at all when the culture that worshipped them only copied from another? Because that is a valid concern, although Mercury and Vesta's appearances easily prove they exist. Greek gods masquerading as their Roman counterparts is a possibility but for what purpose? FTWinchester (talk) 13:17, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
Well of the European pantheons, the greek one came first, norse and roman almost directly copied, both having head gods with a preceeding father and grandfather, 12 major gods and such. Also the Bible it's self directly takes from faiths established far earlier, such as Lucifer being the evening star equated with both the roman venus and the feather winged torch holder of the greek gods called Lucifer, the ancient pre greeks had angelic beings, Seraphia, among other things, though I would directly think the greek gods in show should be stronger, since they are older, but that is besides the point.
But really anyway, greek culture did not worship inthe same manner as norse, christian or roman, it was more theological interpretation of nature through form of man, philosophy makes more sense when told in the form man most understands, why christianity came about much later and tried saying there was only ever one I don't know, but I personally don't believe in gods and see them as personified forces of nature, just so you know...I'm no pagan fanboy trying to exemplify the prospect of Pagans being important, jusy conjecture.
Don't worry, I am well enough quite familiar with the major european mythologies and the culture related to them. To be honest, I don't think the Norse was closely related to the Greco-Roman mythology. Their mythology is very much different. I know you could see counterparts like the underworld/hell, and certain gods with similar powers, but they very much differ in their lore and story. The similarities they share could be found in other cultures of the world, but each have their own unique narratives. I am also aware that certain Christian beliefs are also present in pagan ones.
The reason why I wanted you to clarify the root of your problem with both Greek and Roman pantheons independently existing, is because the answer would depend on you. If this is because in real-life, Romans merely copied the Greek pantheon, the show could easily have changed that to fit their own lore. If you believe that they should have been the same pantheon and just masquerading as one or the other during a certain point of time, then that is also possible since, again, the show recreates mythologies. As for personification of the forces of nature, this is understandable. However, this point of view is not limited to the Greeks as well. Many believe that mythologies began as a narrative, a human attempt to explain nature by personifying forces like storms, earthquakes, etc. Regardless if this theory is true or not, it is however, without a doubt true that mythologies soon evolved to become actual worship, as evidenced by temples, recordings of offerings and rituals. Even now, people could always see the gods as mere personifications, but the fact remains they have eventually been worshipped as actual deities. FTWinchester (talk) 01:07, February 21, 2014 (UTC)
Well, not really, some of the greek at least came to be worshiooed, but the titans? I'm not sure if they were, by the way ragnarok is currently upon us hehe, i counted a total of 18 volcanoes nowhere near eachother having grumbles, as reported by contacts, odd that the media has ignored it, like everyone expecting the wars of Gods would be visible to us humans, rather, if it is happening, i'm sure we would only see glimses in the shape of volcanic eruptions, larger than normal storms and such.
But back to sunject, most of the greek Gods that were not worshipped seem to still be seen as personifications, which there are more of such as Hypnos (sleep) his brother thanatos (death), the Dream lord morpheus, Hemera (day), Iris (rainbow), the furies, the fates, Nyx (night), Tartarus (underworld), Aether (light), Uranus (heavens) and even Gaia (earth) may not have been worshipped.
What are they? Edit
What are the polythesitic deities in Supernatural? The eat humans like monsters, but do not go to Purgatory or trace back to Eve. They regard each other as gods, but do not share many characteristics like other supernatural races. Angels, demons and monsters all have pretty much the same powers and weaknesses. Not gods. There is nothing to indicate that they are as old or nearly as powerful as God or Death and their current power levels make them look at best on the level of upper level demons. Supposedly they were more powerful when they were worshipped more in the old days, but even the ones worshipped the most now like Kali or Zeus are not that powerful compared to angels. They each seem to think their own mythologies are true and other ones as false. They may have been created by God, but that does not seem the case. Lucifer considered them abominations for daring to claim to be gods. I acknowledge that they are the type of being accepted as "gods" in the Supernatural universe, but what really separates them from other monsters? Has anything ever been said in any interview, chat, or commentary on what they are, where they come from, or how they fit into the Judeo-Christian framework of the show? Seekquaze1 (talk) 01:51, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
Only known facts about the (gods). 1. While, they have powerful magic, they can gain power increases from the riturals and tributes rather than believing/worshipping them as there is much evidence and even statements made in the series to support. 2. The gods normally all are immortal (non-aging). 3. It's unknown when or how they became into reality.
Some think they might be Tulpas, I don't support that. As even though once a Tulpa is made, it doesn't require people to believe in it anymore. The gods histories and origin change, a Tulpa is made when all the parties are thinking of something in a single form. Personally, and this goes off Atropos staying she got her job from God, which allure to her age and purpose. That the pagans are a type of supernatural creatures of magic that are like fairies, but simply came into reality at different times and forms. And when they started appearing on Earth they were worshipped as gods.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 06:12, November 7, 2014 (UTC).
I think it's kind of ignorant for Eric Kripke and all the other writers to group all of the pagan deities under a category. Not only becuase it's disregarding history (Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have not been shown to commit sacrifice for their gods, and the Egyptians only rarely sacrificed servants for their deceased pharaohs to have followers in the afterlife, and the Norse, Chinese, Voodoo and Hindu faiths only infrequently practiced sacrifice for deities in times of great struggle), but also because the creators missed out on having a variety of species that could be allies or foes of the Winchesters.
Kali and Artemis have unfortunately never been shown again, but considering how much they've lost, they could make some pretty intimidating characters to reintroduce. And using so many of the gods as cannon fodder the same episode they're introduced (When so many faiths [Greek, Roman, Hindu, Chinese, Voodoo, Egyptian] clearly outline that their deities cannot be killed, at least in the permanent sense) is also pretty lame. I mean, are we expected to believe that the gods clearly singled out as the most powerful could be killed by mortals, other gods, or archangels in two seconds flat, when Lucifer states in Hammer of the Gods that the Pagans are always fighting amongst themselves? If they are constantly fighting, why do they not kill each other? Why are they so easily dispensable after millenia, especially when they've likely encountered endless hunters and deities?
It's not just for the pagans or God. Eve is considered as a deity like being by her children like the Alphas. Lucifer is even called a god by demons like Megan. Samhim is from the Celtic Mythology but as a demon not as a god like in real-life. Fenris is worshipped by werewolves. We state they aren't gods like the pagans or like God, but have status that is similar. The page I made is called deities not pagans or gods I this in mind when I made it. The difference between a deity and god, is a deity is something that is worshipped but not necessary a divine being but often is, a god is almost always a divine entity. All beings that are deities or vindicated like a deity can be listed here.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 22:40, June 1, 2015 (UTC)
A few definitions of Deity are "a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion)", "divine status, quality, or nature", and "the creator and supreme being (in a monotheistic religion such as Christianity)". As you can see, deities aren't just beings that are worshiped, they are specifically divine. Deities in Supernatural are their own supernatural species, and Lucifer/Eve/Samhain don't fit that description. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 00:28, June 2, 2015 (UTC)
- Castiel, Eve, and Lucifer were shown to be worshiped as deities on Supernatural, but not as Pagan gods like the Norse, Greek, Hindu, Egyptians, etc. (which are the species I think you're referring to). Castiel for example had taken the place of God and either carried out his own wrath or performed miracles in said role. Eve was worshiped by many monsters as she had a hand in creating many of them (or at least their alphas). Lucifer was worshiped by the demons, and was their creator as well. So not only were they worshiped by untold beings (be them human, monster, or demon), but they also had large amounts of power, enough to create new species altogether and carry out extraordinary feats. Simply going by the definition, deity does not necessarily only equate to the monotheistic god or the pagan gods, but also those with "divine status, quality, or nature"; divine means "of, from, or like God or a god". By these definitions, Castiel, Eve, and Lucifer would be considered to be, or rather have been, deities (which could adequately be classified in parenthesis like it is now, I feel). Trip391 (talk) 01:01, June 2, 2015 (UTC)
Trip explained it better, but yeah that my point. I don't list them among the others. Just Deity is a neutral word that normally refers to something that is worshipped. And each culture has their own definition of a divine being.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 01:07, June 2, 2015 (UTC)
There seems to be a conflict between this page and the Amazon page. Can some one verify how the Amazons came to be? This page states that they are the offspring of two gods. But the Amazon page is more vage and only sates that they were created during a meeting between two.ThomasNealy (talk) 06:57, November 21, 2017 (UTC)
- I don't remember exactly what they said about the creation of the Amazons. That's a good question.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 16:42, November 22, 2017 (UTC)