Granted by Lucifer?

Is it definite that molecular combustion was granted to Dagon by Lucifer?  I know that she says being Lucifer's "side pet?" has its perks, but that was right before she tortured Kelvin with electrokinesis, and it might have been possible that she was referring to something else instead.  Dagon also had this power in Family Feud, BEFORE Lucifer saw that she was protecting Kelly Kline, and unless he knew her intentions beforehand, it seems relatively unlikely that the molecular combustion was granted by him.  Dtol (talk) 10:30, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

  • Oh I agree with you, definitely but other people seem to be of that opinion. Personally I think the molecular combustion is a power of hers as a Prince of Hell. I even put it that way when I wrote most of the page. Other people changed that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 16:03, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • There is absolutely no proof Lucifer could ever grant someone an ability without physically touching them. She has done nothing so far for Lucifer to grant her any super powers. I say "moelcular combustion" is Dagon's ability. Kajune (talk) 16:15, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
      • Me too. I don't get why people put it as one granted by Lucifer!!! After they did that, I adjusted the other pages to match but I never agreed with that reasoning personally.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 16:17, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • The only power granting confirmed (that I remember) is from Raphael to Crowley, and Raphael was physically there to do it. I've removed the speculation from Dagon and Lucifer's pages. Kajune (talk) 16:20, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Also, Lucifer is still bound by the cage's warding.  It's been damaged by Amara, but I don't think he can do something this advanced yet.  Even in Season 11, he could use telepathy from the cage, so it's consistant with this season.  The power granting thing isn'tDtol (talk) 16:29, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
  • Heya guys, Lucifer apparently empowered Dagon. It is obvious. Lucifer maybe bound, but he can still use his abilities on some occasions. Now lets check the conversation between Kelvin and Dagon:
    • Kelvin - You are just Lucifer's desperate, clingy side piece.
    • Dagon - Cause being Lucifer's side piece has its perks.

After that, Dagon's hand turns red and tortures/harms Kelvin. This is the proof you wanted. Lucifer is somehow connected to Dagon IDK. Apparently, he granted powers to Dagon. Like being able to harm/kill angels. This is the only one implied. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:42, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

  • Seraph, Dagon has been able to kill angels even before Lucifer knew what she was doing. Even if her words to Kelvin implied power granting, it is still speculation. Too speculative, in my opinion. Kajune (talk) 17:00, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • I agree. I figured those "perks" involved being his queen when his son was born. And she tortured him with electrokinesis which given her power and the powers displayed by the other Princes, notably Azazel, I doubt she needed Lucifer to have. I think she was just bragging because of the perk of being Lucifer's wife or whatever you wanna call it.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 17:03, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
    • Are you sure Lucifer didn't know what she was doing? Lucifer promised her place next to him. He sent Dagon after the child. Those perks aren't about being his queen. Now, what we learned from this episode is Dagon kills Angels when her hand is charged/turn into red. She showed this power to Kelvin when she was mentioning the perks of Lucifer. It is not speculative, it was definetely implied that she has that power from Lucifer. I suggest you to check that scene again. Also being a queen isn't even a perk. SeraphLucifer (talk) 17:16, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
      • I'm pretty sure Lucifer didn't know what she was doing. Their first on screen conversation showed Dagon being surprised to hear from him. Lucifer might have made the promise afterwards, maybe to encourage her or something. Either that or the writers changed their minds and made power granting possible. But I still think it's a stretch to say he actually made her more powerful, as if she wasn't already competent enough in killing angels. Kajune (talk) 17:20, April 29, 2017 (UTC),
      • You may be right, I will be checking and respond back. Sometimes I can make mistakes too. SeraphLucifer (talk) 17:23, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
      • Well, their first on-screen talk is about getting news from the Kelly. Dagon didn't look surprised I guess, instead she reported Lucifer, apparently they may have spoke before (possibility). In the last episode, clearly Dagon had this angel killing/harming perk from Lucifer. Writers may changed it as you said. So far, no demon was able to kill angels, even lesser demons by smiting type of powers (excluding Cain), so they may have wanted to stay true to lore by granting power by Lucy. Lucy even fuels Jesse's powers so why not Dagon? SeraphLucifer (talk) 17:39, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
        • Here's something to consider: I believe Dagon sought out Kelly on her own. Ramiel mentioned that she was interested in the kid in his appearance and he no longer cared anything about Lucifer or his kid. I think Lucifer sensed Dagon at the end of the episode and contacted her to offer her a deal. He seemed pleased to find out that Dagon was protecting his kid, but there was no indication that he knew before or had anything to do with it. He probably contacted her after that and gave her the added incentive of ruling at his side as the baby's mother. Sounds like something he would do since he did the same with Rowena MacLeod. The way her hand glowed when she kills angels just might be the way that particular power manifests for her. There is absolutely nothing pointing towards her getting the power from Lucifer. Just because no other demon displayed it doesn't mean anything. The only time we've ever seen a Prince of Hell versus an angel was Ramiel versus Cas and he had the Lance of Michael so he might not have bothered with the power if he had it.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 17:44, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Also, while Luci fed Jesse's powers, that was his mere presence on Earth, not anything he did directly.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 17:47, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • You took the words right out of my mouth. XD Kajune (talk) 17:50, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • And don't forget, white-eye-demon Alastair had the strength to kill Castiel, a regular angel. He nearly did twice too. Kajune (talk) 17:53, April 29, 2017 (UTC) 
        • That is so wrong. Alastair himself said he can't kill angels. He could only send back Castiel to Heaven. BTW, yes I know Lucy didn't directly fueled Jesse's powers but still, Lucifer's mere presence grants super powers to Jesse. SeraphLucifer (talk) 18:16, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
        • And Jesse is a Cambion, sort of the demonic equivalent of a Nephilim. Luci's presence boosted the power he already had, it didn't give him new ones. It just strengthened his already existing power. What your claiming he did with Dagon is totally different from that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:19, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Jesse is so poorly explained I don't know why we're bringing him up. Alastair was originally able to kill angels until Castiel's popularity changed that, now we have Dagon, who has been killing random angels no one is going to care about, so here comes our first angel-killing demon. Kajune (talk) 18:22, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Kajune here is the quote: "Well, like roaches, you celestials. Now, I really wish I knew how to kill you. But all I can do is send you back to heaven." Alastair never have been capable of killing angels, Uriel slaughtered them remember? I just showed Jesse as an example for power granting but nevermind. Guys, then tell me, what are Lucifer's perks? Because way that scene was happening, she clearly showed one of the perks given to her by Lucifer. It was the way she killed angels. I am like %99.99 sure that she got that power from Lucifer. SeraphLucifer (talk) 18:32, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
      • He only said that because of a retcon. Anyway, Dagon is a demon who can kill angels. That's a fact. But I honestly don't know what the writers had in mind when they had Dagon say "perks". Heck, I don't even know why she's a fanatic all of a sudden. She wasn't before. Kajune (talk) 18:41, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Well that's true about Alastair but he was probably less powerful than the Princes as he was lesser in rank and younger since the only demon older than them was Lilith. As for the perks, again, Luci promised to make a sort of family with Dagon as the mother of his kid if she kept him safe. Dagon was excited about the kid's destructive potential and given her psychotically evil nature, the thought of ruling everything with Lucifer was probably very enticing to her. She may not have wanted to rule Hell itself but everything else and the destruction they could cause together??? That does seem like something appealing to her. Remember, Luci "promised" her that. Of course he promised Rowena the same sort of thing but he was just using her and was likely doing the same with Dagon. As for Dagon being a fanatic, I think it was less about Luci and more about the kid given the way she talked about him. She wanted to rule with Luci and raise the kid with that much power and destructive potential.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:43, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • That was not a perk. That was basically his promise to her, the perk was the power she has taken from Lucifer. She showed it to Kelvin. Yes Dagon can kill angels but apparently with Lucifer's perks. Why do you ignore these facts, I really don't get it? Writers never explain stuff and when they do, they really screw it over. Also Kaj, can you explain me the retcon about Alastair, I have no clue about it. SeraphLucifer (talk) 18:48, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
          • You don't know??? Originally Cas was supposed to be killed by Alastair but Misha was too popular with fans and critics so the writers changed their minds about killing him off. Anna was supposed to replace Cas but when they changed it, they didn't really have much use for her anymore so they were forced to kill her off in the end.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:57, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Dagon still killed TWO angels, Seraph, before Lucifer acknowledged her. Remember, it was Dagon's decision to protect the baby. Lucifer is not the type to go looking for people who failed him and ask them to serve him again. Dagon was there, he acknowledged it and likely made the promise to prevent any chances of a second failure. Kajune (talk) 19:00, April 29, 2017 (UTC) 
        • Yes Dagon killed two angels Kaj, but are you sure she wasn't communicating before or after that? This part is unclear, we cannot make predictions if she was in Lucy's service or not. But the perk situation clearly explained how she was able to kill angels. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:05, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
        • Didn't Dagon say herself that hearing Lucifer's voice was unexpected? And I don't think Lucifer expected her involvement in the first place. Maybe the perk was being a powerful demon? Powerful enough to make poor old Kelvin confess? Lucifer created her, didn't he? Kajune (talk) 19:08, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • Transcript Time:

INTERIOR: Crowley’s Lair

Lucifer: Dagon. Dagon... Hear me.

INTERIOR: Apartment building

Dagon [hearing Lucifer telepathically]: I do, sire.

Lucifer: News of my son... All is well?

Dagon: As can be expected.

Lucifer: And the, uh... container?

Dagon: She should last as long as needed.

Lucifer: Well, she better. Don't fail me, Dagon. Not again.

        • This is their first on-screen talk as I know, the conversation between Kelvin is upwards. Kelvin calls Dagon desperate, side piece of Lucifer. Dagon shows her power, perks of being side piece of Lucifer to Kelvin. Now that power (glowing hand) is how she kills angels, and that explains that she got that from Lucifer. This is my arguement about power granting of Lucifer. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:18, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer


        • I personally still cannot imagine Lucifer deciding "I'm gonna give Dagon super powers in order to protect the baby I love most in this universe even though she failed me once before". Kajune (talk) 19:21, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
        • That is why I complain a lot about writing staff of SPN-CW. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:23, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

If there is no proof that Lucifer did in fact give her the ability, then the false statement is obviously false information and should be removed. Zane T 69 (talk) 21:52, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

  • It was hours ago and I think we have consensus here anyway that there is no proof Lucifer gave her the power anyway. Only myself, Kajun and Seraph are in this argument and only Seraph is arguing otherwise.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 01:53, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

I also believe that's a Lucifer ranted Dagon with this power. She displayed the ability immediately after saying being Lucifer's side piece came with perks. That's a straightforward implication. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 03:18, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

  • But she displayed the ability before she had known contact with Lucifer again. And what she displayed with Kelvin was electrokinesis not molecular combustion.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 04:58, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
  • We don't actually have proof that the other Princes don't have these abilities. Ramiel barely showed any skills beyond wielding the Lance,  and even Azazel displayed only a couple of skills. It's still kind of speculative. I also don't like putting too much focus on one sentence uttered by one character. It could mean anything. Like Lucifer's "little bro" and Amara's "first son" quotes. Kajune (talk) 05:02, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, Azazel did display the ability to use electrokinesis, so that ability is shared among the Princes. Kajune (talk) 06:35, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
  • Still, you are talking about before contacting with Lucifer. There is no proof that she and Lucifer were already in touch in 12x13. Lucifer may have promised her in 12x12 but who knows? That topic is unclear. But there is an actual implication that being able to harm/kill angels was one of the perks that was given by Lucifer. It was clearly explained for God's sake. SeraphLucifer (talk) 07:38, April 30, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
    • Clearly explained? If Dagon was speaking clearly about what she meant by a perk we wouldn't be having this conversation. Lucifer did not gift her with "electrokinesis", so there's that. We have no proof that molecular combustion was a gift, and even if it was, that was not the ability she used to torture Kelvin. Kajune (talk) 09:59, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
    • Look Kaj, writers don't classify powers as "electrokinesis" or "molecular combustion." They showed that Dagon could harm/kill angels when she charges her hand or glows red whatever. That way, she kills angels or tortures in Kelvin's case. The talk with Kelvin heavily implied she had that power from Lucifer. Perks of being in his service.  SeraphLucifer (talk) 12:49, April 30, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
    • Even if the writers don't classify things, those two powers are clearly different. She was electrocuting Kelvin as a means of torturing information out of him. We also didn't see her hand glow with a mini-ball in it or whatever you call it. Dagon's "molecular combustion" kills upon touch. Look, I really don't want to add info based on one ambiguous word, otherwise Michael would've been listed as the younger brother by now, twice. Personally, and this my opinion, Dagon's perk could be receiving the power when she was turned into a demon by Lucifer. When was the last time a demon casually killed an angel? Kajune (talk) 13:14, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
      • And here's something else to consider: Cain may have been able to kill angels just as easily. He said something about being able to swat Cas like a fly and he was able to Smite demons even without the First Blade. If Cain could kill demons and presumably angels like that, who's to say Dagon didn't already have the power to do that too but with molecular combustion???--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 02:58, May 1, 2017 (UTC)
      • I am kinda busy atm, couldn't edit much but at least it should be noted that "It is implied that this power was one of Lucifer's perks." SeraphLucifer (talk) 08:58, May 2, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
        • Put it in the Trivia section if you wanna do that would be best I think.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:51, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Fired/Fried

That wasn't a mistake, that was a joke. I expected someone to change it.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:45, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Well, I guess both are true. XD Kajune (talk) 18:53, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Incinerated makes sense I guess. SeraphLucifer (talk) 18:54, April 29, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I just thought it made a good joke. He literally fired her and so did the baby kind of. You know, firing her as his protector and all that!!!--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:58, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

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