Not a Demon?Edit
When is it ever stated that the thing Sam shoots is a Crossroads Demon? I mean yeah it has red eyes but isn;t it possible that with all the other millions of monsters out there one of them might also have red eyes. That would also make sense about shooting it as bullets might kill monsters but have no effect on demons so a demon wouldn't need a hostage if all Sam had was a gun.
Do demons actually take souls because souls power the deals? Or could they always alter reality simply by a person's consent and the soul merely was the preferred price for the deal? I mean, hypothetically, if a demon wanted something else other than a soul, would a deal still be made, and could the demon still alter reality?
Because of a revived discussion on Azazel vs angels, I went back on In the Beginning script. While it is impressive that Azazel did not need souls to seal the deals, he did say it was not souls he wanted to begin with. So I think it becomes more of a question on whether a demon wants or needs the soul as a price. Azazel also wanted more than a soul in In My Time of Dying (he wanted the colt, in addition to the soul), and Lilith altered Bela's contract to also include more than just a soul in Season 3 (she also wanted the colt). Additionally, I think an anon earlier pointed out that Lilith wanted Sam's head on a stick (as well as Dean's) in return of her dropping her goal to break seals. I mean, of course, "head on a stick" may mean their soul, after all, but she never really mentioned a soul (consider this with the fact she told Sam in No Rest for the Wicked he doesn't have something she wants, even if Sam was also offering a soul). What do you guys think? FTWinchester (talk) 18:42, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
Very good point, Crowley did explain that making a deal was simply a "spell" the certain demons could do, thus explaining why they don't use such powers to benifit themselves instead. And he did claim that taking the soul was neccessary for the spell to work. Now its possible Crowley was lying, however if all making a deal is casting a spell, then it does make sense they would need a soul as the show makes it clear that really powerful spells normally require specific ingriedents. Plus I think another crossroads demon (can't remeber which one though) did say that they couldn't do anything without a soul (though don't hold me to this, and they might have ment it as in, without a deal with the soul as the price.) I don't really know if we can use Azazel as an example as its already made clear Azazel didn't need souls, and considering how much John knew its likely he was aware of this. As for Lilith, as for Bela, I don't think that was a true deal, as she was able to change it afterwards, more along the lines of bartering for what they wanted. As for your second example, its possible however wether that counts as a true deal or not is unclear, sure she claims it does but she is not the most honest being. I supose its possible that demons could be able to charge something else, however I somehow doubt it, I always assumed Azazel (and probably lilith aswell) was simply so powerful he could bypass the bit about needing a soul as long as he played along with the other steps. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:24, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
Nice point. On Bela, I've always thought Lilith altered Bela's original contract since Lilith held some contracts personally, and the rest she has control over through Crowley? But you're right, I did miss the parts where the demons themselves said they needed the soul. Maybe only really powerful demons could bypass such. I also just remembered, Crowley also struck a deal with Samuel, not requiring a soul, but simply monsters. But that would also probably be more of an agreement than an actual deal. Oh well. I was just asking because I was planning on bringing up the idea of a page on Crossroad/Demon Deals under the category Rituals and Spells, as we could still elaborate them in a separate page. I just wasn't sure if we have consensus on how the deals work, as well as information on other details. FTWinchester (talk) 03:34, September 4, 2013 (UTC)
I always thought that souls were just the price they'd collect after 10 years. I mean they don't exactly leave the person soulless. Also that soul is for Hell in general and the demon doesn't exactly use it for itself (spell or otherwise). RaghavDAll I need is ONE life, ONE try, ONE breath, I'm ONE man 14:07, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
That was what I was trying to explore, too. But General mentioned something about a demon explicitly claiming they can't make the deal without the power of the soul--if I could just find the exact transcript for that to review the episode. FTWinchester (talk) 14:41, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
Wasn't Crowley's reason for wanting Bobby's soul that he could use it as insurance not that he needed it to find Death? Seeing as Azazel and Lilith don't require souls doesn't it just make sense that souls are the prefered price. I mean Dick and Crowley made a deal without any soul involvement as did with Crowley when he almost made a deal with sam and dean.
- You have a fair point with Crowley/Dick. And we do know for sure that theirs is a legit deal with a binding contract. On the other hand, Abaddon referred to deals to be causing demons to be "paying" for what they "should be taking". It could be figurative or literal. But now we have more evidence to support demons do not really need souls to power the reality-warping. This is getting confusing. But the point raised was very interesting. Thank you. FTWinchester (talk) 05:15, October 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Do we? Neither Crowleys deals with Dick or Sam and Dean actually involved reality warping, they just involved agreements. Likewise Crowley was able to break his deal with Dick, where as if offical deals can't be broken. When Abaddon said paying, I took that to mean they were forced to uphold there end of the bargin, so the soul still gets ten years of what they want, Abaddon clearly doesn't see this as worth it. As For Azazel being immune, well he is pretty much the most powerful demon, except for Lilith who was also caimed to be immune. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:18, October 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Not explicitly. But consider this. If such negotiation required so much detail on all the clauses/restrictions, wouldn't you think there is at least some binding form of magic that would prevent demons and leviathans from breaking the deal? Because if there were none, obviously there would be no point wasting time and effort trying to work over the scroll because demons are untrustworthy as hell and leviathans are constantly hungry. What's stopping both sides from adhering to the agreement if the scroll that Crowley and Dick worked over meant just that--paper that could easily torn apart and ignored? What creates or supports the validity of the deal between both parties other than just their word? What happens when one side just blatantly ignored the agreement? Because that's not farfetched at all. And despite everything, it was still called a deal, and Dick even noted he wanted it in writing because he did not "kiss on the mouth". Think about it. FTWinchester (talk) 17:58, October 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes but Crowley does "easily" ignore it and did "torn appart" the agreement, moments after its finalised. My best guess, he was trying to trick Dick into thinking it would be a binding agreement so the Leviathan wouldn't be ready when he double crossed him, however somewhere along the way he realised that Dick wasn't bying it, but by that point it was to late to cancel the charade. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:52, October 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Although that would directly contradict Lilith's statement. In her offer to Sam, she would stop breaking seals in return for Sam's and Dean's deaths. She said, "I make a deal, I have to follow through. Those are the rules, and you know it." (The Monster at the End of This Book). Based on this, there are unknown/unspecified rules governing demon deals, and they are supposedly binding. That was a deal that did not require reality warping as well, and yet Lilith indicated she was obliged to adhere to the deal's agreements. So how do we classify and differentiate deals into mere agreements or "official" deals? Because even deals with reality warping are considered agreements. It's basically, give person this, and person gives up his/her soul. FTWinchester (talk) 01:40, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
Different red eyes Edit
I have noticed that not all crossroads demons display the same Red eye type, some display Red eyes with a Black pupil and others are simply red, Crowley's red eyes bear the pupil, as do most the earlier female demons we saw, but some later ones such as the one that made the deal with bella, the one called guy and the old woman seen in season 9 for example, all have solid red eyes.
The only other time I have noticed this in demons is with Samhain, a white eyed demon with black pupils.
Is this simply a production error or do you think it shows rank within the class of demon??
I've noticed that myself, but I'm betting its just a production error, the shows special effects budget seemingly increased each season, so new techniques keeping getting implimented, for example Holy fire is a lot more realistic now than it was when they introduced it in season 5. If it was of some real importance, I'm sure it would have been referanced in dialoug at some point. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:34, November 4, 2013 (UTC)
I'd say they either forgot what they'd already established crossroad demon eyes to look like or (as General said) they were playing with special effects. Even with the same demons eye color changes slightly--Dean's CRD had red eyes with black slitted pupils in her first appearance but completely red ones in her next two, and even Azazel's eyes went from yellow eyes with black splotches to yellow with black rounded pupils to completely yellow to faceted yellow and back again. In-universe, perhaps demons can alter how their eyes look or it depends on the circumstances or something...?--NaiflidG (talk) 00:38, November 5, 2013 (UTC)
is a crossroads demon true and can you summin one and how ?
This is a wikia on the canon of the live-action series Supernatural and not a how-to guide in performing/seeking/summoning/hunting counterparts in real-life (if they exist). FTWinchester (talk) 13:31, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
As in the case of Demon Princes, I agree that the article * Crossroad Demon * should be changed to * Red-Eyed Demon * or * Red-Eyed Demons *.Like the princes, the crossroad demons are just a title for the species. And the perfect name for the race of red-eyed demons seems to be also * red-eyed demons *. When it comes to their genus as red-eyed demons, their work as demons of the cross is not important or. (220.127.116.11 20:10, September 11, 2019 (UTC))