Not to sound rude, but I still find it hard to understand how the light in 20,000 souls is enough to destroy The Darkness, when it took millions of souls to destroy the third archangel, Raphael. I say this because Castiel refused to do anything about Michael and Lucifer, he chose to keep them locked up instead of killing them, as if he believed he wasn't strong enough. Another thing, the archangels are beings of light, they were made to fight The Darkness, but it has been stated that God plus the four archangels wasn't enough to kill The Darkness. Death also implied that Castiel with millions of souls inside him was not comparable to God, weaker in fact. So...does anyone see my point here? Kajune (talk) 14:26, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
God said light. He didn't say the power of 10,000 suns. Just the light emitted during the event. I'm sure the soul bomb would have left, a crater of sorts. But pure light the amount can be considered the weakness. Also the properties of supernatural energies are a factor. When it comes to magic the kind of power not just how much is also a factor. Plus who is using it, and how.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 02:08, December 9, 2016 (UTC)
Anubis said that not even God doesn't decide where a soul goes, but Kevin should have gone in Heaven and he sent him in Hell. So he can decide after all Malthael Archangel of Death (talk) 10:40, November 8, 2019 (UTC)
- He directly cast him into Hell not had him judged.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 11:45, November 8, 2019 (UTC)
Validity of this article
I have several concerns about this article. As a general rule, we do not create articles unsupported by canon and/or those with subjective statements. My biggest concerns are three "discrepancies" that arise from a matter of plot pacing and exposition. A character's goal/motivation is not always transparent at the beginning and so their words may contradict their action until the whole plot is revealed. Another thing is that some of the "discrepancies" are explained subjectively, while a counter could also be made based on how a viewer interprets the scenes.
Cases in point:
Angels--Uriel's statement is already false as it is even at that point in the season. We know God, a higher power, exists that could kill angels.
Azazel's Goal/Lilith's plan. Agreed, it seems contradictory but remember, in the end, Lilith was also taunting Sam to kill her. Don't forget an even more important subplot: Ruby. She worked as a double agent for Lilith and helped Sam on every crucial battle against demon hordes sent by Lilith--all this while Ruby was also grooming Sam up to be stronger as a vessel. This should not be taken at surface level. the fact that we have both of these in the same article should indicate that character actions and statements should be interpreted with the context, and not as isolated plot points. We also need to take into account that characters aren't always fitting the mold or the plot they were desigend to be. They have their errors. "Killed off, right before the good part starts." Was Lilith scared? Was she pissed she doesn't get to enjoy the slaughter? Or because she doesn't get to see Lucifer rise? We don't know. But a character IS allowed to waver in their goals in any story. These two are not like actual mistakes that could not be reconciliated no matter how you put it (i.e., the Grand Canyon and Rugaru cases).FTWinchester (talk) 14:27, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
Your words remind of me "Jus In Bello". Ruby was thinking about suicide, and if she died, who was going to be there for Sam, to protect him from Lilith's army of demons sent to kill Sam? Ruby is one demon against many, and she suffered torture at least once by Alastair due to her job. Was this Lilith's plan? And are you suggesting Lilith's numerous attempts to kill Sam were actually attempts to run away from her fate as a final seal? Is that it? Kajune (talk) 14:32, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
Actually, no. Quite far from it. You know how Azazel said he liked Sam for being raised in a paramilitary manner? It's like throwing experience points at Sam if you will. And considering the depth of Ruby's undercover, it's literally difficult to retroactively identify which events are planned as they happened by Lilith and Ruby. It's a lazy but effective excuse on the part of the writers, but unless they bring back every demon that died in Seasons 3-4, we literally can't identify which ones were told to put up a fight but leave Sam alive secretly.
But, let me get this straight--I'm not saying my way of interpretation is correct. It's the fact that there are different interpretations on top of character motivations being clouded by their own personalities and the pacing of plot means we should not post just one way of looking into it. FTWinchester (talk) 14:49, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
Well, even though we may never resolve any of plot holes, I made this page just so fans or readers could see the faults. I thought pointing out the mistakes was a good idea. I find the plot hole concerning Lilith to be the hardest to explain, and I'm not saying anything should be done about it. Are you considering this page should be deleted? Kajune (talk) 14:55, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
Not deletion, no. We can keep it, provided alternative interpretations are also posted. Caleb may not be so lenient though. I once made a header template warning readers an article might contain conjecture and retcons, and while the template was finished, it never saw use because Caleb said we should avoid putting subjective/conjectural statements in the wiki. FTWinchester (talk) 15:03, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
I understand. My view of the wikia is very different from Caleb, it seems. I view it as a grand source of information, containing both speculations and info not directly revealed in canon. If we are to provide information that is only stated clearly and only in canon, then a person is better off watching the episodes for facts instead of visiting a wikia that won't say much else. I'll see what Caleb has to say, then. Kajune (talk) 15:14, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
I was the one who added that sentence about the angels but you bring a good point FTWinchester. When I watched the episode I was under the impression only angels could kill angels until Dean killed Zachariah. I was a little confused when the episode aired way back when and noticed a few others on the internet were as well; as we took Uriel's statements as canon. But when one does take a look back, yes, God can easily kill other angels, making Uriel's statement false. I didn't even think about this, however as I was explaining the other day, we all have different views on a variety of things and its excellent to talk things out like this, to prevent these types of issues in the future.
On to the next subject, Azazel's Goal/Lilith's plan. I actually had similar concerns myself, I agree both of these articles are conjecture. I originally was going to propose we remove the Azazel's goal section and just leave Lilith's plan, both articles almost say the same thing. There is a page also on the superwiki for canon discrepancies and Lilith's plan is also listed there. As you said "there are different interpretations on top of character motivations being clouded by their own personalities and the pacing of plot means we should not post just one way of looking into it." I agree however I don't think there would be anything wrong with keeping that section at least, as I still run into a few people who could not understand her plan. I think you explained why this is best. "some of the "discrepancies" are explained subjectively, while a counter could also be made based on how a viewer interprets the scenes." Truer words have never been spoken. "Was Lilith scared? Was she pissed she doesn't get to enjoy the slaughter? Or because she doesn't get to see Lucifer rise? We don't know. But a character IS allowed to waver in their goals in any story." Also true, again however I've noticed we all watch TV shows in different ways, not everyone is able to pick up on subtext, hence why I think the paragraph about her plan should stay. There's only about one more thing that I don't think belongs on this page, but as you said let's see what Caleb has to say about all this first. Bkshadows (talk)
I guess Azazel's plan section can be removed, given that his death likely left the demons confused on what to do. As for Lilith, that should be kept, because it really is a confusing, plot-hole filled story, compared to the others. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter, Bkshadows. I hope this page can lean towards a more objective view, if not, I hope the page can represent all the major subjective views it can hold. Thanks again. Kajune (talk) 19:28, December 8, 2016 (UTC)
I think Naomi meant that if they will leave Heaven they might would get killed, and that will cause Heaven to collapse.
But it's not what she said. I'd prefer if we took her at her word instead of trying to "interpret" a clear statement.
So why didn't she force Anael to came back to Heaven? If you are right about that, she wouldn't let neither Castiel nor Anael to leave Heaven after they came back in, but she did. That's supporting my theory.
I'm glad you used that word, saves me the trouble - it's a theory, and theories belong in blogs. Her statement was clear, but her motivations are her own (or it could even be another continuity error, we don't know).
This is still an option, and a very logical one, if you would think of it. Much more logical than that their physical location effects the whole thing.
Who are older the Princes or Knights of Hell
I heard from Crowley how he said that the princes of hell are the the very next created demons after Lilith. But i heard Henry Winchester to said abouve the Creation of Knights in the same time, the Knights of Hell have been described as the very first hand picked by Lucifer. What would actually be a good point for the canon discrepancy in the section demons?
Crowley said: The oldest of the old demons. The first generation after Lilith. Lucifer turned them himself, before the oceans drank Atlantis.
Henry said: Knights of Hell are hand-picked by Lucifer himself. They are of the first-fallen, first-born demons. Which really begs the question who the next demons really are, who were created shortly after Lilith? (220.127.116.11 22:11, November 8, 2019 (UTC))
- Since the Princes were introduced at a later date, I feel that what is said about them should supersede what was said in the show before, and so Princes win, here. In addition, Henry doesn't quite say that Knights are the oldest demons - he says they are "of the first-fallen". I think the "of" does a lot of work here - it establishes that the Knights are among the oldest, but it leaves open the possibility of demons that are older or equally old (it was already known then that Lilith is the oldest, for example). What Crowley said about the Princes, on the other hand, is much clearer and more precise about their age - it makes it very clear and unambiguous that Lilith came first, the Princes came second, and everyone else came after them. SonOfEve (talk) 05:57, December 11, 2019 (UTC)
Henry Winchester really said: Knights of Hell are hand-picked by Lucifer himself. They are of the first-fallen, first-born demons.That would saif the First Born Demons of the First Fallen Souls. And besides, I just wanted to say about the princes that exactly, as in the case of princes of hell, it is said about the knights of hell, that Lucifer personally trained them. But the Knights of Hell are just modified versions of a Black-Eyed demons. According to this Wiki, Lilith was the very first demon of creation and the princes of hell the very first demons afterwards, whereby the princes are only the first generation after Lilith, which means not that the princes of hell are the multiple second demon, but only the first group ever created after Lilith. I also read a lot on the Super Wiki and compared it with this one. According to the Super-Wiki, It is confirmed that Lilith is the absolute first demon and was turned by Lucifer himself and Alastair is extraordinarily ancient and given the potential to be the immediate demon overall after Lilith, who was also turned by Lucifer himself.
Orion Invictus, whether Dean was conscious or not during the fight is irrelevant. What matters is that, in Season 9, the information that only consent withdrawal could expel an angel from his vessel is introduced without contradiction, while Season 4 shows the opposite. If Dean was proven wrong, there would be no contradiction between the two seasons, but as is, there is.
Also, watch the fight here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlYtPvi7wJg
Dean is clearly weakened after getting beaten up by Alastair but there's no confirmed loss of conscience. When Alastair drops him as he's attacked by Castiel, Dean's eyes are still open. SonOfEve (talk) 00:10, December 13, 2019 (UTC)
It matters because there's a difference between a canon discrepancy and a character just being ignorant. For example, Rufus and Bobby arguing over how to kill an Okami. Bobby says it's 7 stabs, Rufus says it's 5. Rufus is just wrong; this isn't a canon discrepancy. Similarly, Dean was not made aware of this type of exorcism, so his claim that the only way is by withdrawing consent is simply his lack of knowledge, not a canon discrepancy.
I only went by what the wiki article on the episode said, since I don't have time to rewatch the fight and take notice of tiny details like that. I'll watch it tomorrow and see what you mean.
- This is a terrible counterexample, because Rufus was refuted in the very episode you're discussing. Dean was never refuted in his wrong belief about angelic expulsion. Whoever watched Season 9 but not Season 4, would get the impression that there's no way to expel an angel from his vessel (unless you're Amara or something), since Dean's error is not corrected. This makes it a canon discrepancy.
- You don't have time to watch a 3-minute video to notice "tiny details" but you have time to scurry through the wiki in search of "tiny details" in order to revert me? Yeah, OK.
- I'm done with this page. Have it all for yourself. SonOfEve (talk) 00:34, December 13, 2019 (UTC)
- I watched your video (at least the relevant part), and Dean clearly passes out at roughly 1:40, long before the exorcism is attempted. Characters being wrong is not a canon discrepancy.
- PS: If you must know, I was waiting for someone to leave the bathroom so I could use it before going to sleep, because there's construction going on in my building and I'd like to not be woken up by that noise. I came here because it seemed like a decent way to kill a few minutes, not to get sucked into an hour-long discussion. In other words, it's not about you, so stop playing the victim card.
- Orion (T-B-C) 10:42, December 13, 2019 (UTC)
How Josie Sands came to be possessed by Abaddon
In episode 8.22, Abaddon gives the following account:
Father Max Thompson, born October 12, 1910. Died August 5, 1958. Who do you think ripped him apart? Word got back to home office that Maxie was messing with things, so we made an example.It wasn't my most artful kill, but it was effective. And bonus – before he died, he told me all about Josie Sands. I found her, and I rode her into the Men of Letters.
But episode 9.17 provides a very different story of how Josie came to be possessed by Abaddon. Here are the two main points:
1. Josie offered herself to Abaddon in order to prevent her from possessing Henry. It didn't sound like Abaddon was actively looking for her.
2. Abaddon seemed to have no idea who Josie was upon meeting her; she even laughed at the idea of a female "Man of Letters", which makes it unlikely that she had been told before about Josie.
Abaddon, however, had no reason to lie about any of that in 8.22. We should, therefore, see the discordance between the two episodes as canon discrepancy.SonOfEve (talk) 08:14, December 30, 2019 (UTC)
- Since no one came to contradict the thesis described above, I inserted it into the entry.SonOfEve (talk) 04:28, December 31, 2019 (UTC)
Azazel, Lilith, Alastair, and holy water and Gabriel sleeping
I fail to see how character A being immune to weakness X means that characters B and C should also be immune to it. And before anyone says that they're demons and that power implies they should be more immune to stuff, there has never been any confirmation as to whether or not Alastair is more powerful than the Princes of Hell. In fact, the Princes were stated to have come after Lilith in particular, so even if the age=power trope applies (as it often does in Supernatural), Alastair is not older than them.
As far as Gabriel goes, just because he doesn't need to sleep doesn't mean he can't or doesn't do so of his own free will. God, Death, and Lilith don't need to eat, yet they do. There's such a thing as indulging.
Well, the thing is that the Princes of Hell are called by Crowley, like the Knights of Hell called by Henry Winchester as the very first demons. Lilith is a white-eyed demon and is proven to be the first demon ever created. Alastair was a white-eyed demon who was at point one human. He is said to be the second demon ever created. It is believed that Lucifer most himself twisted and turned his soul to make a weapon against God as an act of malice. The Princes of Hell were simply empowered and turned by Lucifer's grace, which is evident from their yellow eyes and their status as Hell's generals. The Knights of Hell are just common demons who were given skills by the Mark of Cain when they were handpicked and trained.
Alternate Universe Creation
Assuming based on OG Michael's memories of the Darkness that the Main Universe is the first universe is rather speculative - this assumes that Chuck individually created each universe at its start and then went through eons re-raising the archangels and re-starting creation. Which could be the case; or, it's possible that Chuck created alternate universes each by going to an event on the timeline and creating a divergence there (think of the multiverse as a tree with branches, to paraphrase Professor Paradox). Personally, I think the latter fits with what we know about Chuck's writerly tendencies and emphasis on the stress of beginning creation. Last I checked; the show hasn't specified how exactly alternate universes are formed as of yet, and Alternate Michael never confirmed nor denied knowledge of the Darkness. We know officially that the Mark of Cain has existed in more than one of Chuck's universes at some point or another - I think it's possible there were multiple versions of the Mark for each universe that diverged after the Darkness's imprisonment, and that the Mark-curing ritual in the Main Universe affected all multiversal versions of the Mark from that chronological date onwards (just my theory, but I do think the point about the Demon Dean universe being a past memory is worth noting down regarding the apparently discrepancy). 18.104.22.168 21:20, February 21, 2020 (UTC)