Killing touch?Edit

So, Cain killed the Knights with the First Blade, but it seemed like he killed that huge group of average demons as well. (In fact, I can't rewatch right now to check, but I seem to remember him even killing a Knight or two just by touch.) He didn't have the First Blade with him, but it emitted the exact same light. Was he killing these demons or just exorcising them? And if he was killing them, was his power somehow connected to his mark and/or the First Blade (because of the light)?--NaiflidG (talk) 03:32, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. I had my head turned to the TV half the time I was editing, so yeah. It's much closer to killing touch. However, I don't recall seeing him killing Knights of Hell on-screen. He's only used the touch on regular demons. Abaddon was the only one shown in the flashback, right? The demon soldier said "we must protect the Knight" or something like that. FTWinchester (talk) 03:41, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Tactile exorcisms, as it's been shown, have never been accompanied by any visualizations. I thought he was killing them with just a touch, although if someone can properly appropriate another possible explanation, I'll open myself up, given that other explanations are plausible. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:40 PM, January 21st 2014

"The deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth"Edit

At least, that's how Crowley described him. Does that mean that Cain (rather than Lilith or Azazel) is the most powerful demon? It's possible that Crowley was referring to Cain's role as the leader of the Knights of Hell (and the destruction they wrought on Earth), or simply deceiving Dean as part of his act, but this is the closest we've ever come to a clear-cut, in-show statement on the matter. It'd make sense, what with his uniqueness of having the Mark of Cain and all.--NaiflidG (talk) 03:38, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Technically speaking, Lilith, Azazel, Samhain were already existing at that time, and if Crowley does mean all demons hoped he was truly gone, that meant it included even those three. Of course, there is always the fact that not all character claims are valid. Statements like those probably get thrown around with the heavyweight demons. This is just my opinion, of course. FTWinchester (talk) 03:45, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

This is a time when dialogue shouldn't be taken at face value. Crowley couldn't possibly make such a description depending on who you think he is. ;) Cain was enormously dangerous, but not the deadliest demon to exist. Lilith holds that title. I could yatter on about a scale, but for this, I'll leave it out. :P -- ImperiexSeed, 11:36 PM, January 21st 2014

After thinking it over, I agree with you guys that Crowley's statement shouldn't be taken as fact. I'm pretty sure now that he was just laying it on thick to scam Dean (and Cain); remember that part where he was pretending that his hands were shaking when he was holding his teacup, but Dean's flashback showed him smirking to himself? I don't think he was as scared of Cain as he acted he was.--NaiflidG (talk) 20:31, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Every high-tier demon to appear has, at their first appearance, instantly outclassed Crowley. Crowley would hold an immense fear of Cain, but not as much towards Lilith, the real deadliest demon to walk the face of the Earth. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:08 PM, January 22nd 2014

Can i just ask, where Cain's eyes shown? were they black? I was hoping for white, but still, ImperiexSeed, you do enjoy throwing around unproven facts don't you? there is no proof to suggest that Lilith was the most powerful demon just because she was the first, as the mythology is opening more, it seems the first batch were created roughly at the same time, Cain included in that Batch with Lilith, in a litter of pups, the first born is not necessarily going to be pick of the litter, Lilith was just the first born, there is high probabilty that lilith never intended her to be the strongest or the ruling demon in his absence, more like she was made simply to be a seal and nothing more, like she just the prototype, first attempt gone sour or something, it seems that possibly Azazel was crafted at roughly the same time, created to be The King, ruling demon, no point lilith ruling when at some point she needs to die, but demons respect her and see her as the progenitor demon, but she seemed to know about the demon killing knife and showed fear of it, as if knowing it could kill her, alastair on the other hand did not seem familiar but was immune to it's killing power all togeather.

Fact is, Lilith may just have been, prototype/original/final seal, Azazel as Ruling Demon, Alastair as head torturer, likely an original deal making demon, Cain was Knight Founder, leader and champion demon, the 'Big gun', Samhain was a chaos summoning demon, Asteroth for Witchcraft and so on, but all of that is theory, just as Lilith being the deadliest demon is, Crowley is not that old, maybe 400 years? if age equals power and he was king unchallenged then does that mean no demons were left older than him???

Princepurple (talk) 11:35, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The one problem I have with Cain's story, is if he became a demon right after killing Abel, how is he credited of being the deadliest demon to walk on earth and bringing so much chaos and destruction when the human population around the time he became a demon was only, I don't know, his own family? If he started killing right then and there humanity would not have survived. FTWinchester (talk) 13:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Now that supernatural has once again made christian mythology more twisty, and made Cain a demon... have they specified that Adam and the 'other' eve were his parents? it could well be that Adam, eve, cain and abel were not infact the first, as dieties seem to be older than that as do the alphas, and im sure the Bible contradicts Adam and Eve being the first, something along the lines of 'banished from the garden to live with the 'other' people' or something, il find the actual verse, but there is plenty in the show to now suggest that anything in the bible is credible in the show.

If Cain was 'one of' the first demons, though Lilith was the first, created therefore before Cain even killed abel, then would that not make Lilith Cain's sister?? how many other humans were around before cain and abel to corrupt? unless the show decides that adam and eve are actually Lilith and Azazel, or Lilith and Alastair or something, I'm pretty confused.

Princepurple (talk) 14:24, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't. That is bafflingly incorrect. You're the one throwing out "ifs and maybes." Such a statement is founded as a fact to be Lilith. Kripke said himself that she is the strongest. It is impossible for one to carve out such a reputation with only four individuals. I think he got that reputation thousands of years after becoming a demon. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:35 AM, January 23rd 2014

So while were on topic would you care to express any facts on Liliths origin if Cain and abel were the children of Adam and eve, the first people?

How can Lilith be the first without being offspring of the first humans?

or if i have my christian mythology mistaken (i find greek, nordic and roman more interesting) did Cain kill abel outside of the garden after they all got banished??

Princepurple (talk) 15:18, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

And Kripke has not been head writer since season 5, unless he gives an upto date clarification, it could be considered a retcon, Cain's smiting could apparently kill any demon apart from knights, lilith is not a knight and also seemed pretty petrified of the demon killing knife.

Even if she outpowers cain somehow i doubt it would be by much, perhaps like how much Micheal outpowers Lucifer, he is stronger, but Lucifer can still give him a fight, I think if the knights, cain included, turned on Lilith, she would be rather petrified, sure, she is the most powerful, but that does not mean she take defeat other powerful demons when combined, one on one, perhaps she is strongest, i don't know.

Princepurple (talk) 15:25, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

No facts about Lilith's human life or origin have been revealed, that I can tell. It's almost impossible for Lilith to have been a human around the time she was alluded to by Ruby. Lilith couldn't gag them with their own vessels all at once or destroy them simultaneously, but she is considerably stronger, I'd say, than any demon. Taking on Knights would require her to actually pay attention to slaughter them. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:36 AM, January 23rd 2014

This is the third time someone overwrote on my reply. Please retain. I'm trying to answer your queries on Lilith.
No, that would make Lilith, nothing to Cain. Maybe a stepmom through Adam (though this is based on biblical lore and other mythos from other versions including Lilith), but that's it. Regardless even though the show borrows from both Creationism and evolution, both had to start somewhere, and they appeared to have chosen the biblical version where there was Adam, Lilith (first wife of Adam), Eve, Cain, Abel, and the third brother Seth. Cain could not have gathered that title until later, as Imperiex has said. I don't know. In forseight, the episode seems like a good one, but in hindsight, it just muddled the lore even more. The idea that they were banished to live with other people actually refers to the Nephilim (I might be mistaken), but the show has different ideas on that as well--they retained the half-angel, half-human, but there was only one in the show. As for the Alphas, the A-vamp said something that he was the thing humans were afraid of in the dark as they huddled around the fire, so humans clearly pre-dated monsters, and there's no problem with that issue. FTWinchester (talk) 15:41, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to overwrite your reply, it's just I was prodded by a user for making stuff up and I set him straight. Sorry for your sake, man, but it makes no sense so much that I'm wordless on the matter of Lilith and once being human. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:50 AM, January 2rd 2014
No worries. Lilith is the first wife of Adam in some versions of the bible, and even in some jewish texts. So in Supernatural she was probably corrupted by Lucifer before Eve was created from Adam. Thus explaining how she was older than Cain. FTWinchester (talk) 15:53, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Anything can be twisted the right way to seen sensible, and man, Lilith being once human is irritatingly insensible. If true, why would God form Eve with Adam's rib when he could've just made her appear, like you're saying he could've done with Lilith. The rib thing, at least as it's portrayed biblically, was suppose to symbolize a unity in love and having God create Lilith out of thin air demeans this, almost implicating an unnecessary action of God. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:05 AM, January 23rd 2014
Hey, I didn't write the Bible, man. So I don't know. I'm just stating facts that some versions of the bible and also in jewish texts, Lilith was indeed the first wife. She was punished because she did not want to be subservient to Adam. Thus she was expelled from paradise and she mated with the nephilim/demons/fallen angels (they all differ) to become the mother of all demons. Since Supernatural mythos dictates all demons were twisted human souls, then the show decided to make it so that instead of God punishing Lilith, Lucifer corrupted her instead. And then of course, to ensure that Adam still had a spouse, God created Eve. FTWinchester (talk) 16:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Lilith has never shown anything to imply she is on level with what cain's feats are, she was rather unremarkable, sure, she has the white light, but so did Samhain, if they teamed up, I don't think concentrating would cut it, knights were specifically crafted to be Super strong, sure cain's smiting is exclusive but whether or not he was immune to angel smiting or not, or whether Alastair was immune to the first blade, not being a knight, but still white eyed and likely as Old as her, did Cain and Abel have an uncle Alastair in the tales???
And then there is Azazel aswel, obviously as old as the white eyes, although in the Biblwe, he was an angel, there is no credibility to say Lilith could overpower any knight, in society, kings or queens ruled but if thier elite warriors/knights turned on them, they would be dead, made to rule and made to be strong are different, Lucifer may have created Cain with more power, and I imagine, with the first blade, which is very powerful and old, likely could have killed Lilith, Lilith was never shown to be more powerful than any demon to the point where she could effortlessly destroy them, sure she was more resistent to Sam's powers than Alastair, but no saying how they would affect a knight or Azazel by comparrsion, when Kripke stated Lilith was strongest, the storyline and mythology was far less developed, and I no longer think his comments are viable since that was many years ago.
You seem awfully conident on how structured the power levels must be and seem to cling to them because they have never been proven otherwise, Like Alastair, Lilith or Azazel, or Cain being able to face Seraph's, it's now known that the Archangels did not kill the knights at all, although I could bet, if Castiel, seraph or not faced Cain, he would get hurt, Lilith is the first demon, does not mean she can take on all other demons easily, actually I think if she tried taking on Alastair with Azazel, Cain and just one other knight or so, she would be overpowered.
I still think Abaddon can take on a seraph alone and easily live to tell the tale, easier than crowley did when he effortlessly escaped Naomi's wrath.
I was correct that Abaddon would come back after her being buried, I was doubted, but she returned, I knew as soon as the knights came in, a super powerful demon would be introduced even stronger than Abaddon, I was dounted, but it happened, back in season 8, i knew as soon as metatron appeared, he would end up as an antagonist, and i knew if crowley would meet a normal angel face to face, he would be overpowered, doubted, but it happened.
Usually in this show, when I think things will turn out a certain way, it does, but on Wiki's, this one included, I get doubted, until it happens, then they doubt the next thing, so here is a big prediction, if Castiel pisses of Cain, and cain returns to take hell, as he will, the Seraph will be put on his arse, in a similar way that Alastair did to his non seraph form, and likely finish the angel excorcism that Alastair attempted twice, also, around season 10, Samhain will rise once again, everything I have guessed since the show started has come to pass, with the exception of cains eyes not being white.
Princepurple (talk) 16:35, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
the storyline and mythology was far less developed, and I no longer think his comments are viable since that was many years ago.
This answers pretty much all the questions. Like I said, in games, these happens as well. Sorry to use PokeMon as the example, but it is good, if not the perfect example. Power creep happens to games when developers try to increase interest by introducing more powerful characters/abilities/weapons. In PokeMon's case, well, stronger PokeMon (Generation 5 if you want to research). What happens is the newer ones overshadow those that have been introduced earlier. What happens is previously established "strong" characters become relatively weak.
Buffy (this is the one show that is also good to use as an example since it's pretty similar) also underwent this. Her Big Bads were, in this progression, i) an ancient vampire king/ruler, ii) three of four of the ancient vampire king's best warriors, iii) an Old One (a pure demon, stronger than all vampires), iv) a cybernetic demon (human-demon-robot hydbrid), v) a Hell goddess, vi) the most powerful sorceress (at the very least in the western hemisphere), and finally vii) the First Evil, an eternal, immortal being that represents all forms of sin, transcending all beings and dimensions. Notice how all became stronger than the other? However, unlike Supernatural, all of them were quite different from each other (with the exception between i and ii), and this allowed that series to become grander and more epic in scale without contradicting its established lore. Basically, it's good writing and foresight.
At this point, Lilith obviously appears lackluster compared to Cain, or even Abaddon. But looking back, so do most other high-tier demons. It's because they did not bother to at least explicitly delineate whether the previous revelations still hold true (i.e., Lilith, Alastair, Azazel being the most powerful demons), or whether they are now being retconned.
Just one more thing, your argument on Kings and Queens being killed by their elite warriors holds true in real life. But in this universe, most, if not all, species operate on age equating to power. If you are older, you usually have the advantage. I've pointed this out several times before: Archangels had them over regular angels, Michael had it over other archangels, Eve had it over angels, Leviathan had it over angels, Alphas had it over the rest of their kind, Death has it over his brothers. But again, all of those are now seriously challenged because of the evolution of lore, which carelessly and blatantly ignores previously established mythos. And this is inevitable, if the writers aren't careful enough. FTWinchester (talk) 16:54, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
If I may also add, even Abaddon appeared to be weaker than when she first appeared. What stopped her from preventing Crowley to teleport? What stopped her from using her mind-reading abilities to weed out the Winchesters early into the season? Why did she need to use an angel blade to kill Cecily? What happened to her spellcasting abilities? The exorcism ritual unfazed her, and the knife failed to kill her yet she fled from one severely weakened regular angel? FTWinchester (talk) 17:01, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
I might come back and watch Season 10 (if it reached that season) just to see if your prediction is right. Could you also predict that the show would be better and clearer in its new lore? Much more exciting and much more cohesive? (Do any of you guys still even remember that this arc is mainly because of the tablets?) That would really help this sinking ship. FTWinchester (talk) 17:09, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
Though unknowable because of how the writers did it (which is making the fans connect all the dots every frickin' time), I'm doubtful the scale could look any different than this: Lilith > Azazel > Cain > Alastair, etc. And, yes, I could be wrong here. But we're all in the same rickety boat on this one. But again, unknowable till the writers paten down any form of guesswork by simply and clearly revealing things that otherwise we, fans, build on the very little given evidence. There is no demon that can exist that would be stronger than a seraph. Abaddon was all riled up by the presence of a weakened average angel, undoubtedly meaning she would as a ant's antenna against seraphs. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:29 PM, January 23rd 2014
Well, unlike the Archangels and monsters, Lucifer did not really create the demons as such, i know eve kinda infected humans, but lucifer more directly twists the souls, demons are pretty much, warped ghosts, but still essentially human, i think if lucifer made lilith, if he willed it, he could purposely make a demn more powerful than Lilith, actually, i think he could (if loose) form a brand new demon and make it above any other, that's why I think he made Cain, as the ultimate weapon.
There is no reason to suggest why Cain cannot fight a seraph, even if a seraph can overpower a knight, how do they kill? don't say, rip the head off and throw it into space or whatever, no Seraph has ever been shown to be capeable of that, and even so, im sure the knight could simply re-materialize, lucifer obviously wanted certain demons around during the apocalypse as Servants, im sure if Lucifer is capeable of making demons that can over power normal angels, which he did, probably to fight them, im sure he made at least one to fight seraphs, i mean i doubt he could make an archangel level demon, since God made archangels, but im sure the Archangel could easily make a demon capeable of fighting a seraph, i think in terms of power its Angel>>>>seraph>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+Archangel.
But even so, a seraph can be killed with an angel blade, and dean seemed to have no problem killing a seraph when he caught him off guard, you would think the seraphs awareness and reaction time would be fast enough to counter any human, but no, he killed him, but Cain was not just resistant to the demon killing knife like Alastair and Abaddon, but completely unaffected, it was a normal blade next to him, so im willing to accept that an archangel blade could kill a normal knight, but not Cain, I think he is invincible apart from maybe The Colt, first blade and deaths Sythe, so How would a seraph kill Cain without the first blade? to kill a seraph, all cain has to do is trap one in a ring of holy fire, get a ton of angel killing blades, and throw them at the trapped seraph, and he is far more clever than Crowley, im sure he could excorsive hundreds of seraphs and find ways to kill them before they even have a chance.
Princepurple (talk) 00:51, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
Plus if Lucifer can have a Cambion created, half regular demon and human which can take out most of heavens host effortlessly, how do we know he has not worked such power into cain?? sure Jesse was only that powerful during the apocalypse, and during that time i believe the half demon could have wiped out every single seraph alone, so why not Cain? he's clearly one of the most powerful demons, Lucifer wanted abel as his 'pet' but got cain instead and assuming that means his guard dog, pitbull or whatever, if a half demon can kill the host of heaven, something of lucifers design, whats to say lucifer couldn't have also crafted a seraph hunting demon???
Princepurple (talk) 00:55, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, while Cain has demonstrated immense power, that doesn't necessarily make him the strongest demon in creation. He's described as the "deadliest demon" not the strongest or most powerful so it is quite possible he's feared for his personality as well as his power. Lilith or Azazel could be as strong or stronger than Cain but he's just racked up the highest body count and is the most blood thirsty of them. He is after all the father of murder, which implies he started the concept of it. Also there's nothing to imply Cain is one of the first humans to exist, That's entirely biblical and the show is not. As Cas says "the bible gets more wrong than right". Plus it's possible Cain was just more flashy than Lilith or Azazel, and that being said both Azazel and Lilith showed great skill with the few powers they showed. Demons in general show more powers than leviathan, yet leviathan can easily slaughter them. Neither was stabbed with the knife so they may both not be hurt at all by it either. As for Lilith being scared of it, it's quite possible she'd never encountered one before. Unlike Cain who had been on earth pretty much since he became a demon, Lilith was imprisoned neck deep for god knows how many centuries. So she may just not wanted to take any risks as if she died before the seals were broken there'd be no apocalypse. So power scale hasn't been destroyed really and it may still hold that the highest rank are the strongest. Further more, Abaddon has never been exceptional power wise but because she's immortal and more bloodthirsty than most demons, she seems to be more revered  than most demons. I recon knights are feared mainly for their difficulty to kill and their more violent methods and techniques. And it's quite clear Abaddon is no match for Cain as she runs away. She seems to be on par with Crowley. Also Crowley wanted to stay so that Dean could fight the demon army and cain would give him the mark, so he may have been over exaggerating to make Dean more interested and the black eyed demons outside don't even hesitate to attack his house so his reputation may not be quite as good as Crowley was selling it (even though they were slaughtered).
Anon, if a human is being credited with the title the 'Father of Murder', he would have to pretty much be one of the earliest humans. You cannot be a 'father' of something that has never been conceived/seen/experienced before. Unless you claim to say that there were several humans before him that did not commit any form of murder to another human, or that Lucifer would wait for several generations after Lilith before he would attempt to influence humanity again and that the fallen archangel has been given a free reign that long by God and Michael. So, while we both cannot say which parts of the Bible hold true for the series at this point, there is more reason to believe that Cain and Abel being part of the first family is true. You have however, a good point that Cain might have been more bloodthirsty but necessarily stronger, and that demons have more capabilities as opposed to leviathans but the latter could destroy the former easily, however if a demon of the same calibre as Lilith was at least affected by the knife while Cain was completely unaffected, wouldn't you have doubts on who is really stronger? And Cain's demonic smiting is certainly something powerful under his belt. If Azazel fell to the colt but Cain and Abaddon could theoretically (as claimed) only fall to the First Blade, what does that tell us? Also, the demons weren't afraid to storm Cain's home because they only wanted Dean and Crowley. The trucker demon made that clear before they even engaged the house, as a clear sign that they don't want anything to do with Cain. After all, look at what happened to them all when they fought Cain himself. FTWinchester (talk) 14:43, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
FTWinchester, did you write all of that reply or did someone forget to put the sig??
Anyway thanks for not disregarding my theories like other members do and actually replying civilly with logic and possible answers, it's nice, but I must wonder, when Cain decided to destroy the knights, where was Azazel? i'm sure he was active at that time and likely the King of hell, why did he, and Alastair for that matter, just let Cain kill them all and retire?? you would think they would go after him on charges of being a traitor or at least react to a very important order of warriors being destroyed, but Cain diddn't even mention those 2, obviously Lilith could do nothing along with samhain, asteroth or whoever.
Another point of mention is how can you compare Crowley to Abaddon? she is far older and and Dean mentioned, to that Hunter with the funny leg, something like 'king of hell being one thing, a knight of hell being a whole lot worse' or something like that, implying that Abaddon is not just hard to kill, but all togeather more dangerous, otherwise, why would dean team up with crowley to kill her?? he is not immortal, the demon killing knife can likely kill him, aswell as angel blades, smiting, the colt and such, dean could just kill him and deal with abaddon alone, she seemed highly confident that in a one on one battle of strength that she could kill him easily, crowley choosing to not battle using the stupid 'campaign' thing, which apparently has not gone his way so far, which is why he wants the blade, he does want to fight , but knows without that blade, he stands no chance.
Abaddon has shown the power read memories and exorcise demons effortlessly, something crowley has not shown, and the demons really seem to fear her, crowley is kind of a joke by comparrison, when she fled from gadreel, she was not anticipating it and did not know whether it was a cherub, angel, seraph, archangel, she likely escaped simply because she had no idea angels had fallen, or if she did, she simply diddn't wanna risk anything, apparently the angels or seraphs or even archangel, although may overpower and possibly excorsise her, can't kill her unless they have the first blade, where as she just needs an angel blade.
Next, I truly think crowley feared Cain, he extended the fear to manipulate dean but still, Crowley can teleport unlike most demons, but cain, without even being up close could prevent him leaving, I doubt crowley faked that, as later cain silenced him easily, showing he can effortlessly overpower crowley, i doubt crowley, king or not would last any longer against cain, regardless off his rank, cain referred to crowley as 'the king' as if it was simply a title, if he wanted the position, crowley ain't stopping him, like cain is simply above him.
but as ive said, if lucifer can have a cambion created which can take on the entire host of heaven, making him stronger than lilith who came before him, then im sure he can create a fresh demon more powerful than lilith at will, i still think cain is Lucifer's 'pet' he really wanted him or his brother as if he had a big role for him, it wasn't siimply a 'screw you dad im gonna reck your human' like he did with lilith, Cain seemed to be a real desire to be his 'pet', imagine, what would the devils 'pet' be capeable of??
but all in all, 3 questions
1- where was azazel and alastair during cain's purging of the knights
2- do you think that cain, being the 'grand knight' like 'grand torturer' has white eyes?
3- can any other weapon kill a knight other than the first blade???
Princepurple (talk) 17:11, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, (I hope you don't mind me joining in) at this point Azazel was at this still searching for Lucifer. From the way Cain discribes it, it appers he massacared the knights of hell very quickly, perhaps in a few days or less. So presumably it all happed so quickly, that by the time Azazel learned what was gpoing on, they were all dead except Abaddon. Then Cain just vanished, Crowely said they thought he was Dead, so its possible they all assumed he just commited suicide, he didn't really have much left to live for after all. As for Alastair, he was in hell torturing souls, it took direct orders to get him to leave hell (or the sheer Sadism of ww2) so even if he did know, I doubt he would have bothered, he probably didn't really care, all he cared about was hurting people.
Its entirely possible, the fact we didn't see his eyes, leads me to suspect that its being saved for later on. Personally though I would prefer it if he had red eyes, not crossroads demon bright red you understand. Dark brownish red, like dried blood, sort of a individual thing to show his satus as the father of murder.
I think the Colt could, its stated only five beings were immune, and I doubt the Knights were on Archangel level durability. Death's scythe could, as it could pottentially kill Death himself. Angel swords might, but I'm guessing Crowley and Dean don't want to risk it not working and finding themselves in close contact with Abaddon. I don't know any else could though. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:59, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
(This reply was intended only for Pricepurple, because I'm leaving and I have no time to read General's post, which was posted a few seconds before I finished typing mine--let me get back to you on that some other time)
An anon(ymous) posted that block of text above mine. You're welcome. That's how discussions are supposed to go anyway, with logic. Anyway, this is exactly why on closer inspection, the episode kind of flusters. Writers of this season just pump out new ideas without at least referencing previously established lore. It's not even just Azazel or Alastair--we don't exactly know when Lilith was imprisoned, and the same goes for Samhain. We know the Celts had the opportunity to worship him, so he should have been still active at some point after Cain was created. Regardless, the hierarchy of hell should have had a say. What I would say next is mostly theory, but it would appear the writers want us to think the Knights were Cain's personal army. What he said about the Knights goes. Still, that's kind of weak. Even someone as powerful as Cain should have to answer to other high-tier demons. Unless, of course, the writers actually planned to do away with the previous lore on the established hierarchy (this is really getting annoying--a lot of things stem from this problem).
We had a little misunderstanding here. When I claimed that Kings and Queens of the supernatural world, I meant the actual original kings and queens like Lilith. Not Crowley. He only came to power once everybody else stronger and older was off the chessboard. So I wasn't claiming that Crowley was more powerful than Abaddon. I know that the 'King of Hell' was never a real position until Crowley styled himself with it, and though it may come with perks, it was still mainly an organizational rank, and not a real rank of strength.
Little thing: Good point on Abaddon fleeing Gadreel because she had no idea what type of angel she might face, but she did know that angels have fallen because she gave a speech saying "all the angels with their clipped wings will bow to me".
On Cain vs. Lilith vis-a-vis the cambion, I could only agree but only because of how the show described and featured Cain. At this point, even someone well-versed with all point of arguments and cues, references detailing the past lore could not defend the previous A-listers.
So to answer your questions, 1 - I have no idea, 2 - I would have, but given Abaddon's eyes, I have no idea as well, and 3 - I'm thinking a Leviathan should be able to consume a Knight, and an Archangel should have no need of the First Blade at all. FTWinchester (talk) 19:02, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
Okay General and FTWinchester, your comments have satisfied my curiosities, thanks for not getting overly annoyed with my comments, i do tend to look at these things way to closely, but theorising is fun for, for once on here i feel like we had a decent, open minded discussion, merit from all sides so i'm letting this perticular subject rest.
But just so you guys know in future, if i feel things need to be challenged, please don't take me as arrogant or illogical, im just looking for good discussion, nobody in RL talks about the show this deep, my partner loves the show, but is not as big on the theory as me, thanks.
Princepurple (talk) 19:15, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
Don't worry. That's the main reason I joined this wikia in the first place, to rack up some discussions with other fans. Tumblr used to do that, but it almost always gets swamped with ships and romance and whatnot. It was very hard to find someone who would discuss lore without going to ship discussions. Besides, I think we all are the same way somehow, one way or another. Anyway, I don't have much more to add on the discussion (aside from questions and nitpicking), but feel free to leave a message on my talk page in the future. Also, forgive the typos from my last post (I already edited them), I was in a hurry earlier. FTWinchester (talk) 01:08, January 27, 2014 (UTC)
Um, angels aren't powerless in Holy Fire. And I'm positive, if Cain was near hundreds of seraphs, he wouldn't be able to exorcise them all without being incinerated and blown in the breeze of 'Who Cares?!'. Dean overjoyed Zachariah to such a degree that he was stuck in an immobilization, unable to react, defend, or think. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:54 PM, January 27th 2014
I don't think Cain could 'exorcise' Seraphs (the term itself usually connotes malevolent spirits), nor has he shown the ability to 'kill' Seraphs. However, the show seemed keen on implying that even Archangels could only kill Cain with the First Blade. Which is a bummer, really, but whatever. So serpahs vs. Cain might be an unending stand-off, until one side gets equipped properly. FTWinchester (talk) 13:40, January 28, 2014 (UTC)
If cain went up against hundreds of seraphs, of course he would be outdone, but im guessing that without the first blade, his vessal is indestructable, but one on one, i doubt cain could smite a seraph, but with an angel blade, of which there are many more of than the singular first blade, he could overpower and kill a seraph, with considerable effort, and could hold his own against two, but anymore and he would need to retreat i think, but he could likely send them back to heaven, though now that their grounded, im not sure if the incantation would work, but sigils still work, so they would go somewhere at least.
But yeah, FTWinchester, a stalemate is acceptable, debate completed.
Princepurple (talk) 06:45, January 31, 2014 (UTC)

Episode/Season references Edit

I have put so much effort to create a page using exact dates (as much as possible) for a better in-universe perspective, and someone goes on and uses season and episode markers again. Really? If you are being told a story, are you told that, "okay, this is now season x, episode y, and this is what happened in episode z". Don't you rely on dates, events and temporal descriptions such as currently, yesterday, last year? FTWinchester (talk) 13:47, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Relation to the Winchesters Edit

Wasn't it specifically mentioned in The Song Remains the Same that Cain and Abel are the brothers' ancestors, which is why they were destined to be the vessels for Michael and Lucifer? They could have at least referred to this when Cain actually appeared, but it was seemingly forgotten. 94.215.23.200 22:18, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Cain did allude to it, mentioning he felt a link to Dean (though he could have meant other simularities they shared). However its possible Cain simply didn't know, and Dean didn't think it would be worth it to bring it up. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:15, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me he was referring to their similarities, not any other type of connection. It would have been interesting so see the bloodline thing at least mentioned. 94.215.23.200 14:45, January 28, 2014 (UTC)

Cain is the Son of Adam and Eve. Depening on the relegion you  go by, but that would mean about 50-90% of the human population has some watered down relation to him. Winchester7314 (talk) 00:02, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Well Adam and Eve had 3 sons that we know of, and probably more. The ones we know, are Cain, Abel, and Seth. That means at MOST 33% of the earths population are descendants of Cain. Plus, I don't think that Michael meant that any one related to Cain and Abel could be possessed by him, but only in that one blood line, that stretched back to him. Let's say Cain had 3 sons; Bob, Joe, and Jack. Joe had 2 kids, Frank, and Charlie. The bloodline of vessels, only goes through one family line, so it would go from Cain, to Joe, to Frank, to one of his kids, to one of his kids, and so on. Bob and Jack, and their descendents, wouldn't be apart of that vessel bloodline. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 07:02, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

More powerful than Alastair Edit

Would the extremely powerful demon cain be more powerful than Alastair`

Now unless Cain smote Alastair, I can't think of anything Cain could do to Alastair that he wouldn't giggle at. And even though Alastair's my favorite demon, I'd have to say yes. Being stabbed by the Demon-killing knife didn't even make him twitch and he's able to take on whole hordes of demons, killing them all before any of them can even leave a scratch on him. So, yeah, Cain's stronger than probably any demon that could ever be created except for Lilith. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:31 PM, February 18th 2014

New light on his power Edit

Okay, so now it's suggested that cain did not become a demon in the way any other first born did, he killed himself and the mark transformed him directly, so perhaps this of in part why he's so strong? although I hoped he was white eyed I'm now thinking more black, though white seems to do with age not counting the knights, so perhaps lilith, alastair and azael all had black to start with.

Now I believe more so than ever than Cain at full throttle could take out seraphs, as dean, with hardly any kills or expirience, or time with the blade, managed to hit Metatron so hard, as to stun him, which the scribe noted, and that was the already powerful angel with the angel tablet, so I wonder what could have happened if dean was enraged and attacked any other angel? Metatron was suggested to be at least near God's level if not more so simply above any angel at that time, and dean managed to stun and seemingly make Metatron dizzy, so given cains thousands of years a demon with the mark, the powers he still had, I'm guessing that, as dean likelly will, not only gain demon immunity, but angel immunity also, being the blade can supposedly kill anything.

I'm thinking dean may at some point gain the smiting power, it stands to reason that if a blade/mark holder that only recently gained it while still human can give a tablet infused powerful angel a stunning hit, that the many thousands of years demon smiting demon can easily wipe the floor with any angel, perhaps even archangel given time = power with the blade, to the point where even without it he could smite an entire army of demons, and incapacitate the king of hell with no effort, take Cas for instance, as a seraph, he was nowhere near Metatron's power except when he absorbed all the souls, so i'm betting deans hit would do alot more to him, for all we know, dean was already immune to angel powers as long as he was bloodlusted, cain also is likely totally immune and can likely if not smite, can directly kill if he had the first blade still

Princepurple (talk) 07:28, May 26, 2014 (UTC)

Eye colour Edit

What colour do you think Cains eyes will be? black like the other knights and dean since becoming a demon the way he did and the season 3 fear form 'your gonna die dean (refarring to the recent final rather than season 3 one) in which it had black eyes, or perhaps thats just what he had at first, later becoming white? he was one of the very first demons, something that is associated with power, or could he be like samhain? (doubtful) or like Azazels yellow or unique? what do you think??

Princepurple (talk) 16:35, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Um....black, probably.... -- ImperiexSeed, 12:58 PM, May 27th 2014

Im pretty sure that his eye color would be red. Even though Dean's eyes were black after being transformed, I dont think his would, and let me explain why I think that. When Lucifer was about to posses, or turn Abel into a demon, Cain made a deal that he would be the demon instead. Its practicly like he sold his sould. Sense he made a deal to become a demon, isnt it natral that he would become a crossroads demon/red eyed demon? Every demon that we know, who sold their soul and became a demon, became a red eyed demon. Dean didnt make a deal with Cain to get the mark, so he got black eyes. It isnt proof, but thats what i think. I have a theory on what different eye colors mean, but that wouldnt be appropriate here. If youd like to hear it, leave a message on my talk page :) Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 05:59, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

How many times must I recur this, saying Dean turned into a Knight is speculation until revealed by the show and has no platform of validity. He should be viewed as just a regular demon as that is the default position. The trade of Cain for Abel, as a deal, probably means that he has red eyes. Good one, Dean.winchestor.54. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:01 PM, June 11th 2014

Thank you imperiexseed :) and I agree with you about the knight of hell thing. Even though Dean got turned into a demon the same way as Cain, it is still speculation, and we have to wait for the show to confirm it. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 20:10, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

A week or two ago when I was planning on making a post explaining the seeming inconsistenacies in the demons's plans and behavior up through Season 4 or so, I actually came up a similar theory on how demons get their eye colors. My theory (which I'm sure Carver will disprove) is that demons get their eye colors based on the eye color of the entity to whom they sold their soul (sort of demonic genetics). Demons who sold their souls directly to Lucifer have white eyes because Lucifer manifests as a blinding white light. Demons who sold their souls to crossroads demons have red eyes and become crossroads demons themselves (for example, Crowley, who was revealed to have made a crossroads deal in life). Demons who sold their souls to black-eyed demon have black eyes themselves (Ruby, who was revealed to have sold her soul to The Witch Demon in life to practice witchcraft). Demons who had not sold their souls to any entity specifically but rather damned themselves through their own actions, also have black eyes (implied by The Talent Scout as the eye color that Jeffrey will have once he is turned). Since Cain sold his soul to Lucifer himself, based on this theory I would say that he would have white eyes. However, because Cain didn't require Dean's soul in their deal, Dean did not inherit his white eyes but rather the black eyes of a demon who has damned himself. It's a rough theory I'm still working out (it makes a little sense, but there's still a lot of questions--where did the first crossroads demon come from? the first yellow-eyed demon?), but I was surprised to see you having a similar theory, Dean.winchestor.54.--NaiflidG (talk) 22:23, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

I really like your theory, and find it fascinating, especially Lucifers white light making the white eyed demons. It's a really cool theory, and could be canon on the show someday. I have a theory kind of like yours, but it isn't based on demonic genetics. In mine the demons eye color isn't based on who he made a deal with, but rather how he got damned in the first place. Here is my theory for each color eye...

White eyed: White eyed demons are human souls that have been "demonized" before they have sinned. Lilith (the first demon) was turned into a demon in the Garden of Eden, after Gadreel let Lucifer in. Since humans haven't eaten the forbidden fruit yet, or sinned at all for that matter, Lillith got white eyes and was very powerful. For another example, let's say a woman wants to make a crossroads deal, but wants to keep her soul, so she offers the soul of her first born son. The demon then kills the baby while in its mothers womb, before it is born (before it has sinned) and it drags it down to Hell, where it would become a white eyed demon. This would explain why Alastair loved Hell, and hated Earth. He was in hell since before he was born. He grew up there, and never had a life on earth. He was used to the heat (because it is the only temperature he had ever felt) and when he finally came to earth, it was chilly to him.

Yellow eyed: yellowed eyed demons are angels who fell from Heaven, lost there grace, and were tortured in hell until they became demons. Since they used to be angels, they have some extra angel abilities, and immunities against a lot of demonic weaknesses. That's why they are immune to salt, holy water, and have yellow eyes. Also, Azazel is the name of a fallen angel in biblical lore. It is said that he fell, and was cast into hell by Raphael. It is possible that Azazel fell with lucifer, and Raphael took his grace before throwing him into hell, where he would be demonized.

Red eyed: if you sell your soul, and that's how you became a demon, you will have red eyes....what goes around comes around. Crowley sold his soul, and he became a crossroads demon. Every demon that we know, that sold their soul to get were they are now, is a red eyed demon.

Black eyed: black eyed demons are the most common types of demons. When a person goes to hell, just because they were a bad person, they get black eyes. When a witch dies and goes to hell, they get black eyes too. Basically, if you didn't become a demon by any of the other methods, you get black eyes.

That's just my theory, and isn't in any way cannon. Hope you enjoy it :) Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 23:18, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Those are both interesting theories, NaiflidG and Dean.winchestor.54. Makes me wish we had more lore about the White-eyed demons and the demonic hierarchy. I honestly hoped that the introduction of the Knights of Hell would give us such, but it only ended muddling the lore even more. I've also been wondering if Carver intended to retcon the power scale or if he also intended the white-eyed demons to be able to stand up to angels. FTWinchester (talk) 01:06, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Strongest of Species Edit

Should we add Cain to Strongest of Species now that Lilith and Azazel are dead?
- Epicshawty (talk page) 00:51, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

I thought "The Executioner's Song" was amazing. It had a cool plot, had cool effects, some nice mythology. It was a super terrific episode until....Cains death. I would have been fine with Cain death of they did it in a cool way, like with Abaddons, but they didn't do any of that. Dean stabbed him with the blade, and you could hear thunder...that's it...not bursting red/white light, no skin burning, nothing. It's like they completely forgot how Knights of Hell die. Anyone else mad at this? EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 06:30, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Not DeadEdit

Imagelajdne

Cain is not dead. Robbie Thompson confirmed it on Twitter. There was no light signifying his death, so it's pretty obvious that Dean didn't stab him. Also, when he fell into Sam's arms, he looked up, like looking at what he left alive up there. And now, Robbie confirmed that he is alive. I'm going to leave his deceased statues here for tonight, so you have a chance to reply. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 07:17, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I left his status up over night, so that the community would have a chance to reply to this message, or give their own thoughts on the subject. If nobody replies to this tonight, I will revert his status back to alive EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 18:27, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

  • I'd say leave it as it is. The guy said it on Twitter but there's nothing in the show itself to indicate his survival so we should leave it. I doubt Dean would leave him alive if he'd keep killing anyway. While the writers say the same thing about Gabriel there is reasonable doubt left in the show with his last episode. There's not that here.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:28, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
  • Another thing is the way Dean's standing before he stabs Cain is literally right in front of him, there's no where else for the Blade to go. And when he yanks it out it sounds like he pulled it from flesh. Also the Blade is bloody when Dean comes down the stairs to give it to Cas.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:45, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

The thing indicating that he did not die was that there was no light signifying his death. What I think might have happened was that in their fight, the Devils trap got broken, and when Dean was about to stab him, he teleported away, and Dean stabbed the floor. When he ripped out the blade, that sound also could have been him ripping it out of the wood. Also, it was confirmed on Twitter by a writer/producer, so we should say so on the wikia. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 01:21, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

  • Maybe put it in the trivia or something but I always thought that they focused on the look on Dean's face instead as that was more important than a light show given the situation. Dean probably would've said something if he'd escaped and unless Dean broke the Trap himself there was no way Cain could've as he had both the First Blade and Cain's knife. Oh and I could've sworn there was a clap of thunder or something like that after Cain got stabbed. Cain also was accepting of his fate.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 03:55, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

I think, for now at least, we should put it as unknown. EmpyreanSmoke (talk) 03:59, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

  • The show makes it seem like he's dead so we should leave it at that. We changed Gabriel's status because his is unclear in the show but Cain's is left pretty damn clear. Just leave it be until we see on the show itself that he's still alive. If he is I'm sure we'll see him again.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:35, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
  • I just rewatched his death and there is a definite clap of thunder when Dean stabs him. He's dead and that was probably some kind of reaction to show it as so rather than the big light show of Abaddon which like I said they probably avoided as it was more dramatic to show Dean's face when he killed Cain and his reaction to it and the fact that Cain himself couldn't control the Mark than to show the light show. For all we know it was the same as when a normal demon is killed and they don't always show that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:42, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Here's a thought: maybe Dean did kill Cain but like Dean's last death, the Mark resurrected him. Anyway we won't know if he's alive unless Cain appears in another episode so we leave it alone.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 08:04, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Cain went insane Edit

Dean actually says that Cain's gone insane when he confronts him during the episode.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:46, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Protagonists tell antagonists, "You're insane," all the time. It doesn't make the villain in question actually insane. Cain had learned to control his blood-lust without the Blade, killing again reawakened it where it had quieted down before, and he believed that he couldn't change and evil was inherent in him and his bloodline. I dislike applying "he went insane" as a reason for a character's evil actions; it's a cop-out and it villainizes actual mental illness.--NaiflidG (talk) 21:04, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

  • Usually on this show they don't do that unless someone is actually insane and sometimes not even then. Jeffrey, the Thinman guys (or at least the killer of the two) and Gerry (aka Boltar) were clearly insane but they never said anything and would've been right. I think what Dean meant is that the Mark's rage has driven Cain insane. I'd agree considering his previous personality when he appeared and the fact that the Mark has nearly driven Dean himself insane at times.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:37, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

I still don't think he was insane -- in my opinion, he just fell into despair because the Mark felt too powerful to resist after he started killing again for the first time in centuries, and he believed that it was pointless -- but eh, do what you will.--NaiflidG (talk) 00:26, February 20, 2015 (UTC)

Cain in season 10 Edit

Good episode and glad he's dead as it means the Knights are now extinct but I didn't like how after all that Cain did to suppress the Mark for centuries one fight with a bunch of demons turns him into a monster again. He said that's what did it too. Doesn't bode well for Dean who at least managed to keep his humanity and win the fight by relying on his own skills and abilities rather than the Mark's powers. Cain did say he wanted Dean to kill him in First Born so I wonder if he knew this was gonna happen while he was still sane.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:48, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

The Knights of HellEdit

I feel that I have to address two recent edits -- one stating that Cain made the Knights through the power of the Mark and the Knights being an "order" of demons rather than a "type" -- because they might actually imply two different things. If Cain made demons through the Mark and that is what made them Knights, then I would say that they would indeed be a type of demon (because they would be different in a noticeable way from other demons) and that Dean is indeed a Knight of Hell for this reason. However, the old Knights would also be considered an order because they organized themselves as such. Therefore, Dean would have been a Knight by "birth" (because he was created as one), but not by affiliation (because he was never a part of the order).

Dean was indeed classified as a Knight of Hell despite never having been a member of the order because he was created a particular way, which leads me to conclude that Knights are a type of demon in addition to a demonic order. However, we can't say that Cain possesses the power to transform human souls into Knights of Hell because that is not stated or implied in-universe or by the writers; it's just a theory. We don't know anything about how Knights other than Cain and Dean were created, other than that they were made by Cain on Lucifer's orders.

Basically, the Knights of Hell are both a type of demon and an order, and while the Knights were almost definitely created differently from other demons because of Cain's involvement, we should probably remove that he has the power to directly transform souls into the Knights of Hell, as that is speculation.--NaiflidG (talk) 04:02, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Can archangels remove The Mark of Cain ? Edit

Some users seem to think, that archangels are able to remove the mark. pro:

Lucifer somehow has no longer The Mark of Cain and it is unknown how he get rid of it, therefore it is possible that he removed it himself.

contra:

Castiel mentioned it needs a very powerful force to remove the Mark.
God probably made The Mark extremely resilient in order to ensure that it can never be destroyed, as it would release The Darkness.


As far as we know, the Mark is removed when

A bearer is stabed with The First Blade by another bearer.
The Mark removal spell is used.

Lambda1 (talk) 15:45, October 7, 2015 (UTC)

Death stated he could remove the Mark, only he wouldn't unless Dean shared it first. Unless this is down to choice or not is unknown, but I believe it's the former. At least, I'd rather believe it was choice and not necessity, because I think Death got seriously nerfed for the season ten finale.

Toe Knee 17 (talk) 17:55, October 12, 2015 (UTC)

SpeciesEdit

I think we should change Cain's species. He is not apparently a demon nor human. I am planning to add "Unclear" to his species information, any opinions? SeraphLucifer (talk) 21:11, February 10, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

  • Uh where's that coming from dude??? Its been stated multiple times that Cain is a demon. Crowley called him "the worst demon to walk the face of the Earth" or something like that and he was referred to as a demon multiple times. I mean a devil's trap affected him and that only works on demons.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 21:24, February 10, 2016 (UTC)

Cain was a demon. After milleniums he might be turned into something else. Look at his death. He never exhibited his eye color while using powers. He was completely immune to knife. The Devil's trap, didn't affect him. He retained his powers and he didn't even try to get out of it. SeraphLucifer (talk) 21:34, February 10, 2016 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Demons don't have to show their black eyes when using their powers, and he wouldn't be the first demon to retain his powers inside a Devil's Trap (remember the first time Azazel's name was mentioned?). His immunity to the knife is explained by The Mark. If Death can't kill a being bearing The Mark, a knife won't do it either.
Orion (T-B-C) 21:42, February 10, 2016 (UTC)
That episode in season 3 was attributed to a spell. As for Cain, he's just an incredibly powerful demon. Strong enough to resist the knife and a devil's trap. The knife couldn't kill Alastair or Abaddon either and he's stronger than both.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 01:47, February 11, 2016 (UTC)
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.