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Season 12 Villians
- So Mr. Ketch is a villain? He didn't even had conflict with Sam and Dean? Even helped. SeraphLucifer (talk) 22:24, February 24, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
- Rowena, Gadreel, Naomi, Crowley, Death and even Amara are characters who have done good or helped the Winchesters, yet they are still Big Bads. Don't forget that Arthur Ketch has been leaving behind a trail of bodies Sam and Dean wouldn't want. Kajune (talk) 00:15, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
Still the Main and Secondary villain sections for Season 12 is mostly speculation. We can say that Lucifer is at least a secondary villain, but he might actually be the main one. Think we should restrict editing on the page until the seasons over? By that time, we'll know with certainty. Zane T 69 (talk) 00:42, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
I agree, Lucifer certainly has potential to be the main villain by season's end as it would be premature to classify him as such right now as we do not know the impact he will have on the rest of the season or in comparison to the British Men of Letters. However, restricting pages should only be an option when there is an edit war between multiple users or constant vandalism and certainly not indefinitely as many have been such as the God and Lucifer pages, so to lock the Big Bad page is unnecessary at this time. 70.93.90.147 01:08, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
You persuaded me away from my thinking, nice work. Could I convince you to create an account? By the way, you don't have to make your talk on these pages perfect, it can actually prevent users from responding fast. Zane T 69 (talk) 01:24, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
I'm rather tempted to say that Lucifer is most likely a Secondary Antagonist. Andrew Dabb already said the Winchesters will confront Lucifer one more time. Kajune (talk) 02:37, March 1, 2017 (UTC)
I went ahead and protected the page, whoever is the Big Bad is speculation until Lucifer dies or the finale. Zane T 69 (talk) 02:45, March 1, 2017 (UTC)
I concur, Zane T 69, as Mazymuth has ( prematurely to say the least) changed S12's Main Villain to Lucifer at least twice now, locking the page is approporiate in order to prevent an edit war if he were to persist. Though hopefully we can determine who is the Big Bad no later than when The CW releases the synopsises to the penultimate episode or the season finale. 70.93.90.147 03:26, March 1, 2017 (UTC)
I must say that writing that the Britsh Men of Letter Elders are the main Big Bads was also premature. Anything we come up with while the season is on air IS speculation. I've put Lucifer as the main Big Bad because in my opinion he was becoming the main threat of the season. We could have changed it along the way. Locking the edit on the Big Bad page just because you don't have the same opinion is a drastic move. No need for an edit war or arguing. No hard feelings because neither of us really knew who the big bad was going to be. But we now have the season finale synopsis. So my speculation right now, but that can change after the season finale is:
Main Antagonists: Lucifer and Doctor Hess
Secondary Antagonists: Toni Bevell, Arthur Ketch and Dagon
The CW's official description of "All Along the Watchtower": "EPIC SEASON FINALE – Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1223)."'jjj
Mazymuth (talk) 21:31, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
Can we please put the edit fonction back on the big bad page? The season is finished now and we can put who the villains are. I contributed a lot to the big bad page so i would like to continue what i started. Thank you!
Mazymuth (talk) 15:26, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
I still can't edit the big bad page. Is it a block for everyone or it's just me? Thanks. Mazymuth (talk) 15:17, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
First off, your contributions were mostly speculation/false information and edit warring. You're the reason it was locked, well you and another user. It's protected for everyone, we're all debating the matter here. When we're done the consenses will agree who the Big Bads are. Zane T 69 (talk) 16:51, May 29, 2017 (UTC)
Zane T 69 (talk) my speculations weren't false, they turned out to be true. The ones that are up on the big bad pages right now are actually false. I don't want want to debate who was right, just know that you can unlock the big bad now that the season is over and we know who the big bads are.
Mazymuth (talk) 20:53, May 30, 2017 (UTC)
Season 12 villain identified
Aside from Lucifer, I think it would be Dr. Hess, who is one of the leaders of the British Men of Letters, and the only one we've seen (and is in America). And we've seen just how ruthless they are now. KillRoy231 (talk) 03:29, April 10, 2017 (UTC)
I doubt it. Dr. Hess doesn't look like a recurring character. Kajune (talk) 03:47, April 10, 2017 (UTC)
She's still one of the British Men of Letters elders, who are already stated to be the main villains of the season. Also, I think Dagon should be mentioned as a secondary antagonist. The way I see it, Dr. Hess (as well as the other unseen elders) and Lucifer are the main villains (Lucifer to a lesser extent maybe coz he's currently imprisoned, but finding a way out), and the biggest secondary villains are Arthur Ketch and Dagon. Toni left after Episode 2, although she is coming back later so I suppose she also counts. KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)
It's definitely Lucifer, BMoL (as a whole) and Dagon. Touchinos (talk) 00:11, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
Eve
Returning to the discussion of whether Eve's a villain: It was argued that she was just protecting her "children", who were being captured and tortured by Crowley and Castiel. It is true that this is what she was doing in Season 6, no arguments there.
However, what about the fact that she created monsters that kill people? Deliberately, I'm sure. Some monsters aren't really bad, but most of them are, which is why it took Dean a while to actually understand that all monsters aren't inherently evil, and why Mick didn't get it at first either.
Furthermore, this makes her a major antagonist of not only Season 6, but also the series, even beyond her death, as she is technically behind basically every monster of the week that isn't ghost, demon, angel, god, or, as is sometimes the case, human. Just like Lucifer was behind both Azazel and Lilith, the main villains of the first two seasons.
It's like, basically Crowley is the villain for the first half, then Eve for the second half, then for the last few episodes, back to Crowley, and arguably - though his motives are very understandable and he did have some standards in his quest, except killing Balthazar was going too far - Castiel. With Raphael throughout but seen less often (but he is acknowledged on the page so I don't need to elaborate on him). KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)
I think we can safely say that Eve is a big bad along with Raphael, Crowley and Castiel. She is the leader of her own monster army so she is a big bad not a secondary antagonist. For season 6, it's a big bad ensemble of Raphael, Crowley, Eve and Castiel; each with their own end goal. Even if she was dispatched in episode 19, she was still a big bad. Much like Abaddon was dispatched before the end of season 9 and was still considered a big bad.
Mazymuth (talk) 21:35, May 30, 2017 (UTC)
Two stories, two Big Bads
I think Lucifer should be the main villain alongside Dr. Hess and the other unseen British Men of Letters elders, coz there's two storylines of Season 12: The British Men of Letters story, and the story with Lucifer's child, of which Lucifer is the main villain coz Dagon - who definitely qualifies as a secondary antagonist - was playing a significant role there and she was answering to Lucifer the entire time, even with his imprisonment from which he is planning an escape. Plus, it sounds like the last episode of the season will be a fight with Lucifer, since the second last sounds like it will conclude the BMoL story.
Think back to Season 9 - there were two stories, the one about Metatron taking over Heaven, and Abaddon taking over Hell, so both Metatron and Abaddon are the main villains of Season 9 (and are acknowledged thus on the page). KillRoy231 (talk) 20:58, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
I'm thinking the British Men of Letters as an organization is a secondary villain, while Doctor Hess is a main. Lucifer is likely a main too. Dagon is secondary at best. Arthur is secondary since he was taking orders from Hess. I don't know about Toni though, she died as an ally. Kajune (talk) 15:30, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
Well, Hess is under the organization and elders. BMoL is basically the main villian along with Lucifer. Dagon and Ketch are secondary villains. IDK about Toni either. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:15, May 19, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer