Talk:Big Bad

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Season 12 Villians

• So Mr. Ketch is a villain? He didn't even had conflict with Sam and Dean? Even helped. SeraphLucifer (talk) 22:24, February 24, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
• Rowena, Gadreel, Naomi, Crowley, Death and even Amara are characters who have done good or helped the Winchesters, yet they are still s. Don't forget that Arthur Ketch has been leaving behind a trail of bodies Sam and Dean wouldn't want. Kajune (talk) 00:15, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Still the Main and Secondary villain sections for Season 12 is mostly speculation. We can say that Lucifer is at least a secondary villain, but he might actually be the main one. Think we should restrict editing on the page until the seasons over? By that time, we'll know with certainty. Zane T 69 (talk) 00:42, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

I agree, Lucifer certainly has potential to be the main villain by season's end as it would be premature to classify him as such right now as we do not know the impact he will have on the rest of the season or in comparison to the British Men of Letters. However, restricting pages should only be an option when there is an edit war between multiple users or constant vandalism and certainly not indefinitely as many have been such as the God and Lucifer pages, so to lock the page is unnecessary at this time. 70.93.90.147 01:08, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

You persuaded me away from my thinking, nice work. Could I convince you to create an account? By the way, you don't have to make your talk on these pages perfect, it can actually prevent users from responding fast. Zane T 69 (talk) 01:24, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

I'm rather tempted to say that Lucifer is most likely a Secondary Antagonist. Andrew Dabb already said the Winchesters will confront Lucifer one more time. Kajune (talk) 02:37, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I went ahead and protected the page, whoever is the is speculation until Lucifer dies or the finale. Zane T 69 (talk) 02:45, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I concur, Zane T 69, as Mazymuth has ( prematurely to say the least) changed S12's Main Villain to Lucifer at least twice now, locking the page is approporiate in order to prevent an edit war if he were to persist. Though hopefully we can determine who is the no later than when The CW releases the synopsises to the penultimate episode or the season finale. 70.93.90.147 03:26, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I must say that writing that the Britsh Men of Letter Elders are the main s was also premature. Anything we come up with while the season is on air IS speculation. I've put Lucifer as the main because in my opinion he was becoming the main threat of the season. We could have changed it along the way. Locking the edit on the page just because you don't have the same opinion is a drastic move. No need for an edit war or arguing. No hard feelings because neither of us really knew who the was going to be. But we now have the season finale synopsis. So my speculation right now, but that can change after the season finale is:

Main Antagonists: Lucifer and Doctor Hess

Secondary Antagonists: Toni Bevell, Arthur Ketch and Dagon

The CW's official description of "All Along the Watchtower": "EPIC SEASON FINALE – Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child.  Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1223)."'jjj

Mazymuth (talk) 21:31, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

Can we please put the edit fonction back on the page? The season is finished now and we can put who the villains are. I contributed a lot to the page so i would like to continue what i started. Thank you!

Mazymuth (talk) 15:26, May 19, 2017 (UTC)

I still can't edit the page. Is it a block for everyone or it's just me? Thanks. Mazymuth (talk) 15:17, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

First off, your contributions were mostly speculation/false information and edit warring. You're the reason it was locked, well you and another user. It's protected for everyone, we're all debating the matter here. When we're done the consenses will agree who the s are. Zane T 69 (talk) 16:51, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

Zane T 69 (talk) my speculations weren't false, they turned out to be true. The ones that are up on the pages right now are actually false. I don't want want to debate who was right, just know that you can unlock the now that the season is over and we know who the s are.

Mazymuth (talk) 20:53, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Season 12 villain identified

Aside from Lucifer, I think it would be Dr. Hess, who is one of the leaders of the British Men of Letters, and the only one we've seen (and is in America). And we've seen just how ruthless they are now. KillRoy231 (talk) 03:29, April 10, 2017 (UTC)

I doubt it. Dr. Hess doesn't look like a recurring character. Kajune (talk) 03:47, April 10, 2017 (UTC)

She's still one of the British Men of Letters elders, who are already stated to be the main villains of the season. Also, I think Dagon should be mentioned as a secondary antagonist. The way I see it, Dr. Hess (as well as the other unseen elders) and Lucifer are the main villains (Lucifer to a lesser extent maybe coz he's currently imprisoned, but finding a way out), and the biggest secondary villains are Arthur Ketch and Dagon. Toni left after Episode 2, although she is coming back later so I suppose she also counts. KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

It's definitely Lucifer, BMoL (as a whole) and Dagon. Touchinos (talk) 00:11, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

Eve

Returning to the discussion of whether Eve's a villain: It was argued that she was just protecting her "children", who were being captured and tortured by Crowley and Castiel. It is true that this is what she was doing in Season 6, no arguments there.

However, what about the fact that she created monsters that kill people? Deliberately, I'm sure. Some monsters aren't really bad, but most of them are, which is why it took Dean a while to actually understand that all monsters aren't inherently evil, and why Mick didn't get it at first either.

Furthermore, this makes her a major antagonist of not only Season 6, but also the series, even beyond her death, as she is technically behind basically every monster of the week that isn't ghost, demon, angel, god, or, as is sometimes the case, human. Just like Lucifer was behind both Azazel and Lilith, the main villains of the first two seasons.

It's like, basically Crowley is the villain for the first half, then Eve for the second half, then for the last few episodes, back to Crowley, and arguably - though his motives are very understandable and he did have some standards in his quest, except killing Balthazar was going too far - Castiel. With Raphael throughout but seen less often (but he is acknowledged on the page so I don't need to elaborate on him). KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

I think we can safely say that Eve is a along with Raphael, Crowley and Castiel. She is the leader of her own monster army so she is a not a secondary antagonist. For season 6, it's a ensemble of Raphael, Crowley, Eve and Castiel; each with their own end goal. Even if she was dispatched in episode 19, she was still a . Much like Abaddon was dispatched before the end of season 9 and was still considered a .

Mazymuth (talk) 21:35, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Two stories, two s

I think Lucifer should be the main villain alongside Dr. Hess and the other unseen British Men of Letters elders, coz there's two storylines of Season 12: The British Men of Letters story, and the story with Lucifer's child, of which Lucifer is the main villain coz Dagon - who definitely qualifies as a secondary antagonist - was playing a significant role there and she was answering to Lucifer the entire time, even with his imprisonment from which he is planning an escape. Plus, it sounds like the last episode of the season will be a fight with Lucifer, since the second last sounds like it will conclude the BMoL story.

Think back to Season 9 - there were two stories, the one about Metatron taking over Heaven, and Abaddon taking over Hell, so both Metatron and Abaddon are the main villains of Season 9 (and are acknowledged thus on the page). KillRoy231 (talk) 20:58, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm thinking the British Men of Letters as an organization is a secondary villain, while Doctor Hess is a main. Lucifer is likely a main too. Dagon is secondary at best. Arthur is secondary since he was taking orders from Hess. I don't know about Toni though, she died as an ally. Kajune (talk) 15:30, May 19, 2017 (UTC)

Well, Hess is under the organization and elders. BMoL is basically the main villian along with Lucifer. Dagon and Ketch are secondary villains. IDK about Toni either. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:15, May 19, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Trivia

Is it okay to add a Trivia section to this page? Kajune (talk) 08:24, June 22, 2017 (UTC)

Season 13

Jack Kline (Nephilim) is the main antagonist and Asmodeus is a secondary so why haven’t they been added? Also, Lady Toni Bevell isn’t a main antagonist nor is Arthur Ketch in season 12. Doctor Hess is the main honcho along with the British Men of Letters. Another thing, the US government could be considered a secondary antagonist since the episode LOTUS and could be added. Lucifer, too, but I think he’s already there. (Chayne Doss (talk) 03:21, September 26, 2017 (UTC))

• The s of the season will be added once the season is over. Also, Ketch, Toni and the entire BMoL were the villains of Season 12. Touchinos (talk) 03:48, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Season 12

With the s for Season 12, the pictures are not really in the right order, and Doctor Hess is listed as a primary antagonist, yet her picture is not there, while Toni Bevell's is. Could someone please change this? Dtol (talk) 21:39, October 12, 2017 (UTC)

Season 13

It's a little early to tell, but my money's on Asmodeus, maybe the alternate Michael if he does cross over, from how big a threat Lucifer thinks him to be. Where Lucifer and Ketch seem to be secondary antagonists. I doubt Lucifer will be main villain this season coz he's mostly powerless now. KillRoy231 (talk) 20:24, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Lucifer hasn't had much of an antagonistic role so far, apart from like 10 seconds at the end of ep 1, so maybe not secondary? Dtol (talk) 20:30, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Based on the fact that he's appearing in three episodes in a row starting next week, I think it really is Asmodeus this season. Taking into account what you so accurately said about Lucifer, secondary would be Ketch and, so far, Alternate Michael. (Well, for all we know Ketch could get re-killed next episode) KillRoy231 (talk) 02:19, January 27, 2018 (UTC)

At this point it's fair to assume that both Asmodeus and Alternate Michael are the main villains of this season, with Lucifer as secondary, since he's actually done something in Devil's Bargain now. (Ketch may not count if he's on Sam and Dean's side now) KillRoy231 (talk) 17:54, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Wait for the end of the Season. That's what we did with Season 12. Toni Bevell was thought to be a Big Bad until the second-to-last episode. Things might change, though I doubt it. I'd leave it until Season 13 finishes. Dtol (talk) 18:00, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Frankly I agree that Asmodeus and Michael are the main bad guys with Lucifer as a secondary antagonist. With season 12, frankly it wasn't really clear until the end who would be the main bad guys with all the convoluted storylines. This season is more obvious as to who the main bad guys are.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 22:26, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Asmodeus and Michael. But I have this nagging feeling that they are setting Lucifer up for a redemption arc and having him be the hero/anti-hero in the end after some kind of sacrifice play. It seems to be where it is going. So I can't say agree with the Lucifer part quite yet. --ThomasNealy (talk) 22:40, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

That was my problem. Lucifer seemed a bit on-off, and we don't know where Ketch's storyline is going. Dtol (talk) 22:59, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

As for the seasons villains, Jack has clearly proven himself to not be a villain. Now that Asmodeus is dead, it is clear he was only a secondary antagonist. Heres my idealogy:

Main: Alternate Michael

Secondary: Asmodeus, Lucifer, Anael.

Duma may count as a secondary antagonist, but she hasn't had much of a part. Rowena or even Naomi may be set up to be a secondary villain as well, but I doubt it. Alternate Kaia really wouldn't count since she was a set up character for Wayward Sisters. Just my thoughts. (Chayne Doss (talk) 13:32, April 13, 2018 (UTC))

Anael and Duma are technically bad angels but they don't deserve to be part of the Big Bad page. Rowena will literally play a part in killing Lucifer. The main antagonist of the season is definitely AU!Michael with Lucifer and Asmodeus as the secondary. Touchinos (talk) 13:36, April 13, 2018 (UTC)

How do you know that Lucifer's going to die? Dtol (talk) 13:42, April 13, 2018 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think Duma is actually bad you know. She's just desperate since Heaven is running out of angels. Anael is bad though. I got the impression she was just using Lucifer to get power for herself. Asmodeus was obviously meant to be a secondary main bad guy while Michael is the main bad guy. He's the one everyone is the most worried over, above and beyond Lucifer.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:54, April 14, 2018 (UTC)

Could anyone please update the page? VendettaRev (talk) 12:43, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

It is about time to update this page. Alternate Michael is Big Bad of Season 13 for sure, and I'd put Asmodeus there as well, or maybe secondary if you consider him too comparatively minor, dying six episodes before the finale, though he did seem to have more of a presence than Michael before his death. (I'd compare him to Abaddon and Michael to Metatron) Either way, Lucifer gets a secondary antagonist position. If nothing else he DID play a villainous role in the finale.  KillRoy231 (talk) 04:06, May 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'd do it myself but the page is locked so only admins can edit it. KillRoy231 (talk) 04:08, May 26, 2018 (UTC)

I unlocked it for established users to edit. Zane T 69 (talk) 20:53, May 26, 2018 (UTC)

Lucifer as a main villain of S13? He only really took that role for the last quarter of the finale. I'd put Asmodeus above him, but I understand listing him Secondary coz he died a little earlier than BigBads typically do in the show. KillRoy231 (talk) 04:16, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

Discussion for revamp & possible removal of Secondary Villains sections

I think we need to rework this page and its qualifiers for both the Big Bad and Secondary Villains sections. There's so much debate as to who even qualifies as a Big Bad or Secondary Villain, when the former is very loosely defined and the latter is something that exists purely on this wiki (probably got started as an attempt to label a Big Bad's specific henchmens as Dragons [TV Tropes link]). Yes, there is a main villain or villains of each season, and yes, there are recurring antagonists in each season, but it seems like we're just creating more debate for ourselves and each other trying to fit a square hole in a round peg with some of these (for example, I would argue there wasn't a Big Bad of Season 10, because by far the biggest concern/story-significant recurring threat was the non-sentient Mark of Cain). The show writers and crew don't tie themselves up in knots figuring out who the Big Bad and Secondary Villains are of each season, they just write recurring villains for the plot. The fans don't really refer to secondary villains and the Big Bad, as seen debated on this very page, isn't always clear so it's opinion to decide who's who. It's just more work we're making for ourselves and an artificially created label we're imposing on the characters since the writers don't put these characters in the same boxes and it's not a debate for the fans either.

I think it's worth keeping the Big Bad sections since that is part of the fan vernacular and occupied a significant role in the show (for example, Azazel was definitely the most important enemy in the first two seasons, as were other Big Bads for their seasons, so it's noteworthy from a meta view), but set down stricter definitions so we can list who, if anyone, was the Big Bad each season instead. I would argue for the removal of the Secondary Villains sections however, as essentially any minion/recurring antagonist could qualify, they don't all serve the same functions or meet the same requirements, and it would be simpler to create a "Recurring villain" category. See Season 2's Secondary Villains - the Special Children were an otherwise unaffiliated group of minor characters with different goals and at least half (Andy, Lily, and Sam) didn't even qualify as villains while Ava and Jake were two-episode villains who can't be compared to the season-long threat of Azazel, Dean's Crossroad Demon only appeared in two episodes compared to S1's Secondary Villain Meg and did not regularly antagonize the heroes or carry out any plans (in fact her most significant villainous contribution to the plot was done because the hero summoned her and had her do it for him), and Gordon was not ultimately of significance to the plot (he was the main villain of two episodes, antagonized the heroes, and tried enacting a plan against them, but ultimately his episodes could've been cut and it would've had no impact on the main season's plot or the conclusion). Unlike the Big Bad's generally understood meaning of "the most important/story significant recurring villain or threat" that we can more clearly see and assign (the Azazels, Liliths, and Lucifers of the story who get talked up as the main threat even in episodes they don't appear), the Secondary Villains category feels unnecessary when a "Recurring villains" category would cover it in a more clear, quantifiable, and unbiased way, and I'd vote we squash Secondary Villains entirely.

Does anyone see more value in keeping the page as-is?--NaiflidG (talk) 12:49, May 27, 2018 (UTC)

Season 14

Still only 3 episodes in (out of 13) but the way it's going, the main villain is likely to be Alternate Michael (again, but solo this time), and secondary may be Alternate Kaia, though in this season her only true enemy seems to be Michael and his enhanced monsters, but the fact that Michael's making an army of monsters further shows they are not likely to cut this short as quickly as they did Dean being his vessel. KillRoy231 (talk) 06:06, November 1, 2018 (UTC)

Let's wait until the final episode, it's worked better since we've started. Zane T 69 (talk) 13:10, November 1, 2018 (UTC)

Actually, according to the showrunners, Michael isn't the Big Bad and it is someone else which become apparent later on in the season. So I agree with Zane and I think we should wait. Dtol (talk) 17:47, November 1, 2018 (UTC)

Now the finale is over I'd probably put Nick and Jack as the main villians and Alt Michael and God as the secondary villians --Milkomeda (talk) 04:21, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

Jack I don’t know. He did some bad things. But they were accidents and because of his naivety that was manipulated by Dumah. He never made an actual malicious decision. Killing Nick I wouldn’t say was a bad thing so much, as Sam and Dean have albeit rarely killed a bad human before.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:49, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

Alternate Michael is the main villain. Nick and Jack are the secondary villains. I don't know where to put God, he appeared in the last episode but was actually exposed that he has been manipulating the story all this time... maybe a main villain? Touchinos (talk) 05:46, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

But than by that logic, Lucifer should be the main villain for S1 - S4 instead of Azazel and Lilith because he was the overarching villain, despite the latter being the direct antagonists and acting on his behalf for those seasons. I agree with Milkomedia that God should be listed as a secondary villain if only because he did not served as the "main" villain until "Moriah" nor did his manipulations impact S14 any more than past seasons. 70.93.83.195 07:17, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

God has been manipulating people and events since the beginning of time; Amara said as much back in season 11. Given his monologue at the end of season 5, where he literally says Sam and Dean went up against him, I think it might be time to upgrade him to main villain not just for season 14, but for the overall series - everything was a result of his manipulation of events. The only exception is probably season 11, since he didn't expect Sam and Dean to actually release the Darkness.

Orion (T-B-C) 08:31, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

• Okay, yeah, I agree with this. Touchinos (talk) 10:06, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Orion, different than Lucifer, God manipulated everythig, every win and defeat, Lucifer didn't had this power, that was just some background. God is the villain of the role series. Doctor49 (talk) 09:56, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you can make the argument God is now effectively the main of the series due to his manipulation of events, but I strongly disagree he should replace Azazel, Lilith, Lucifer and so on as the Big Bad for each season if that is what is being suggested. God may have been pulling their strings all this time in hindsight, but that doesn't change the fact that they were the direct antagonists. 70.93.83.195 20:12, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't think God should replace the other main antagonists, but that he should be added to them, as the one who instigated everything.

Orion (T-B-C) 20:30, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

No, because as I said before by that logic not only should Lucifer be added as a Big Bad for S1-S4 because he orchestrated everything Azazel and Lilith had done to free him from the Cage, but than Ruby should also be added as Big Bad for S3 when she had been an ally, despite that not being revealed as a deception until the S4 finale when she was both directly and openly an antagonist. In hindsight, God may have been manipulating things from the start, but that doesn't mean by default that he is the Big Bad season-by-season, only that he is THE Big Bad overall much like the Emperor is in Star Wars, who is also responsible for manipulating most of the events that occurred in that franchise up to his death and even beyond to a degree. Without delving into speculation, it would be more proper to state God as being the overall Big Bad of Supernatural due to his manipulation in the summary for the Big Bad page, but to add him as one to all accept S14 and S15 seems to be based too much on a technicality particularly when he did not appear every season physically or offscreen (e.g. saving Sam and Dean at the end of "Lucifer Rising"). 70.93.83.195 01:49, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, thinking about it know, when someone watch any season from 1 to 13, considering only those seasons, God wasn't a villain to the public/fans, so as the fandom user said, God should be added as the Series' Big Bad but not as each season's. Doctor49 (talk) 04:01, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

I still disagree, but I'm willing to make that compromise.

Orion (T-B-C) 07:36, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, who is the agreed upon Big Bad and the secondary Villains? Zane T 69 (talk) 14:24, May 16, 2019 (UTC)

• I agree with God as the overarching Big Bad of the series. As for the season I'd go with Michael as the primary and Nick as the secondary. I'd maybe consider Jack or Duma as a secondary as well given the events of the second half of the season.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 16:47, May 16, 2019 (UTC)

Can someone change Michael's picture in the season 14 section? That actor is not even in the season, we need a picture of Dean as Michael. And i'm pretty sure Jack needs to be in the big bad section for season 14. He's a threat Sam and Dean needs to deal with even if doesn't have a soul or wants to be evil. He's the goal and focus of the final episodes of season 14. Castiel didn't think he was evil in season 6 and he's still part of the big bad ensemble. 

Mazymuth (talk) 14:39, September 24, 2019 (UTC)

Seasons 13 and 15

First, for Season 13 I think Asmodeus and Lucifer should be switched around. Asmodeus seemed to have more of a presence throughout Season 14 and even imprisoned Lucifer for a while. Until he died in the sixth to last episode of the season, at which point the position was fully taken by the season's other Big Bad, Alternate Michael (who is also Big Bad of Season 14 and died earlier into that season than Asmodeus in Season 13). Lucifer only played a significant antagonistic and threatening role in the season finale, so I guess one could call him the final antagonist of the season since Michael was forced into a temporary alliance with Dean to kill him, but the rest of the season he was either a temporary ally or a supporting antagonist.

Second, it should be pretty obvious that God is the Big Bad of Season 15. Too early to say who secondary antagonist is; Belphegor only lasted three episodes and wasn't revealed to be evil until the third, and Lilith is probably not going to return in any later episodes (if she does, and lasts quite a while, then she could be, but that's a big IF). KillRoy231 (talk) 00:10, December 11, 2019 (UTC)