Talk:Big Bad

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Season 12 Villians

• So Mr. Ketch is a villain? He didn't even had conflict with Sam and Dean? Even helped. SeraphLucifer (talk) 22:24, February 24, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
• Rowena, Gadreel, Naomi, Crowley, Death and even Amara are characters who have done good or helped the Winchesters, yet they are still s. Don't forget that Arthur Ketch has been leaving behind a trail of bodies Sam and Dean wouldn't want. Kajune (talk) 00:15, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Still the Main and Secondary villain sections for Season 12 is mostly speculation. We can say that Lucifer is at least a secondary villain, but he might actually be the main one. Think we should restrict editing on the page until the seasons over? By that time, we'll know with certainty. Zane T 69 (talk) 00:42, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

I agree, Lucifer certainly has potential to be the main villain by season's end as it would be premature to classify him as such right now as we do not know the impact he will have on the rest of the season or in comparison to the British Men of Letters. However, restricting pages should only be an option when there is an edit war between multiple users or constant vandalism and certainly not indefinitely as many have been such as the God and Lucifer pages, so to lock the page is unnecessary at this time. 70.93.90.147 01:08, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

You persuaded me away from my thinking, nice work. Could I convince you to create an account? By the way, you don't have to make your talk on these pages perfect, it can actually prevent users from responding fast. Zane T 69 (talk) 01:24, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

I'm rather tempted to say that Lucifer is most likely a Secondary Antagonist. Andrew Dabb already said the Winchesters will confront Lucifer one more time. Kajune (talk) 02:37, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I went ahead and protected the page, whoever is the is speculation until Lucifer dies or the finale. Zane T 69 (talk) 02:45, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I concur, Zane T 69, as Mazymuth has ( prematurely to say the least) changed S12's Main Villain to Lucifer at least twice now, locking the page is approporiate in order to prevent an edit war if he were to persist. Though hopefully we can determine who is the no later than when The CW releases the synopsises to the penultimate episode or the season finale. 70.93.90.147 03:26, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I must say that writing that the Britsh Men of Letter Elders are the main s was also premature. Anything we come up with while the season is on air IS speculation. I've put Lucifer as the main because in my opinion he was becoming the main threat of the season. We could have changed it along the way. Locking the edit on the page just because you don't have the same opinion is a drastic move. No need for an edit war or arguing. No hard feelings because neither of us really knew who the was going to be. But we now have the season finale synopsis. So my speculation right now, but that can change after the season finale is:

Main Antagonists: Lucifer and Doctor Hess

Secondary Antagonists: Toni Bevell, Arthur Ketch and Dagon

The CW's official description of "All Along the Watchtower": "EPIC SEASON FINALE – Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child.  Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1223)."'jjj

Mazymuth (talk) 21:31, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

Can we please put the edit fonction back on the page? The season is finished now and we can put who the villains are. I contributed a lot to the page so i would like to continue what i started. Thank you!

Mazymuth (talk) 15:26, May 19, 2017 (UTC)

I still can't edit the page. Is it a block for everyone or it's just me? Thanks. Mazymuth (talk) 15:17, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

First off, your contributions were mostly speculation/false information and edit warring. You're the reason it was locked, well you and another user. It's protected for everyone, we're all debating the matter here. When we're done the consenses will agree who the s are. Zane T 69 (talk) 16:51, May 29, 2017 (UTC)

Zane T 69 (talk) my speculations weren't false, they turned out to be true. The ones that are up on the pages right now are actually false. I don't want want to debate who was right, just know that you can unlock the now that the season is over and we know who the s are.

Mazymuth (talk) 20:53, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Season 12 villain identified

Aside from Lucifer, I think it would be Dr. Hess, who is one of the leaders of the British Men of Letters, and the only one we've seen (and is in America). And we've seen just how ruthless they are now. KillRoy231 (talk) 03:29, April 10, 2017 (UTC)

I doubt it. Dr. Hess doesn't look like a recurring character. Kajune (talk) 03:47, April 10, 2017 (UTC)

She's still one of the British Men of Letters elders, who are already stated to be the main villains of the season. Also, I think Dagon should be mentioned as a secondary antagonist. The way I see it, Dr. Hess (as well as the other unseen elders) and Lucifer are the main villains (Lucifer to a lesser extent maybe coz he's currently imprisoned, but finding a way out), and the biggest secondary villains are Arthur Ketch and Dagon. Toni left after Episode 2, although she is coming back later so I suppose she also counts. KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

It's definitely Lucifer, BMoL (as a whole) and Dagon. Touchinos (talk) 00:11, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

Eve

Returning to the discussion of whether Eve's a villain: It was argued that she was just protecting her "children", who were being captured and tortured by Crowley and Castiel. It is true that this is what she was doing in Season 6, no arguments there.

However, what about the fact that she created monsters that kill people? Deliberately, I'm sure. Some monsters aren't really bad, but most of them are, which is why it took Dean a while to actually understand that all monsters aren't inherently evil, and why Mick didn't get it at first either.

Furthermore, this makes her a major antagonist of not only Season 6, but also the series, even beyond her death, as she is technically behind basically every monster of the week that isn't ghost, demon, angel, god, or, as is sometimes the case, human. Just like Lucifer was behind both Azazel and Lilith, the main villains of the first two seasons.

It's like, basically Crowley is the villain for the first half, then Eve for the second half, then for the last few episodes, back to Crowley, and arguably - though his motives are very understandable and he did have some standards in his quest, except killing Balthazar was going too far - Castiel. With Raphael throughout but seen less often (but he is acknowledged on the page so I don't need to elaborate on him). KillRoy231 (talk) 23:54, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

I think we can safely say that Eve is a along with Raphael, Crowley and Castiel. She is the leader of her own monster army so she is a not a secondary antagonist. For season 6, it's a ensemble of Raphael, Crowley, Eve and Castiel; each with their own end goal. Even if she was dispatched in episode 19, she was still a . Much like Abaddon was dispatched before the end of season 9 and was still considered a .

Mazymuth (talk) 21:35, May 30, 2017 (UTC)

Two stories, two s

I think Lucifer should be the main villain alongside Dr. Hess and the other unseen British Men of Letters elders, coz there's two storylines of Season 12: The British Men of Letters story, and the story with Lucifer's child, of which Lucifer is the main villain coz Dagon - who definitely qualifies as a secondary antagonist - was playing a significant role there and she was answering to Lucifer the entire time, even with his imprisonment from which he is planning an escape. Plus, it sounds like the last episode of the season will be a fight with Lucifer, since the second last sounds like it will conclude the BMoL story.

Think back to Season 9 - there were two stories, the one about Metatron taking over Heaven, and Abaddon taking over Hell, so both Metatron and Abaddon are the main villains of Season 9 (and are acknowledged thus on the page). KillRoy231 (talk) 20:58, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm thinking the British Men of Letters as an organization is a secondary villain, while Doctor Hess is a main. Lucifer is likely a main too. Dagon is secondary at best. Arthur is secondary since he was taking orders from Hess. I don't know about Toni though, she died as an ally. Kajune (talk) 15:30, May 19, 2017 (UTC)

Well, Hess is under the organization and elders. BMoL is basically the main villian along with Lucifer. Dagon and Ketch are secondary villains. IDK about Toni either. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:15, May 19, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

Trivia

Is it okay to add a Trivia section to this page? Kajune (talk) 08:24, June 22, 2017 (UTC)

Season 13

Jack (Nephilim) is the main antagonist and Asmodeus is a secondary so why haven’t they been added? Also, Lady Toni Bevell isn’t a main antagonist nor is Arthur Ketch in season 12. Doctor Hess is the main honcho along with the British Men of Letters. Another thing, the US government could be considered a secondary antagonist since the episode LOTUS and could be added. Lucifer, too, but I think he’s already there. (Chayne Doss (talk) 03:21, September 26, 2017 (UTC))

• The s of the season will be added once the season is over. Also, Ketch, Toni and the entire BMoL were the villains of Season 12. Touchinos (talk) 03:48, September 26, 2017 (UTC)

Season 12

With the s for Season 12, the pictures are not really in the right order, and Doctor Hess is listed as a primary antagonist, yet her picture is not there, while Toni Bevell's is. Could someone please change this? Dtol (talk) 21:39, October 12, 2017 (UTC)

Season 13

It's a little early to tell, but my money's on Asmodeus, maybe the alternate Michael if he does cross over, from how big a threat Lucifer thinks him to be. Where Lucifer and Ketch seem to be secondary antagonists. I doubt Lucifer will be main villain this season coz he's mostly powerless now. KillRoy231 (talk) 20:24, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Lucifer hasn't had much of an antagonistic role so far, apart from like 10 seconds at the end of ep 1, so maybe not secondary? Dtol (talk) 20:30, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Based on the fact that he's appearing in three episodes in a row starting next week, I think it really is Asmodeus this season. Taking into account what you so accurately said about Lucifer, secondary would be Ketch and, so far, Alternate Michael. (Well, for all we know Ketch could get re-killed next episode) KillRoy231 (talk) 02:19, January 27, 2018 (UTC)

At this point it's fair to assume that both Asmodeus and Alternate Michael are the main villains of this season, with Lucifer as secondary, since he's actually done something in Devil's Bargain now. (Ketch may not count if he's on Sam and Dean's side now) KillRoy231 (talk) 17:54, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Wait for the end of the Season. That's what we did with Season 12. Toni Bevell was thought to be a Big Bad until the second-to-last episode. Things might change, though I doubt it. I'd leave it until Season 13 finishes. Dtol (talk) 18:00, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Frankly I agree that Asmodeus and Michael are the main bad guys with Lucifer as a secondary antagonist. With season 12, frankly it wasn't really clear until the end who would be the main bad guys with all the convoluted storylines. This season is more obvious as to who the main bad guys are.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 22:26, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Asmodeus and Michael. But I have this nagging feeling that they are setting Lucifer up for a redemption arc and having him be the hero/anti-hero in the end after some kind of sacrifice play. It seems to be where it is going. So I can't say agree with the Lucifer part quite yet. --ThomasNealy (talk) 22:40, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

That was my problem. Lucifer seemed a bit on-off, and we don't know where Ketch's storyline is going. Dtol (talk) 22:59, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

As for the seasons villains, Jack has clearly proven himself to not be a villain. Now that Asmodeus is dead, it is clear he was only a secondary antagonist. Heres my idealogy:

Main: Alternate Michael

Secondary: Asmodeus, Lucifer, Anael.

Duma may count as a secondary antagonist, but she hasn't had much of a part. Rowena or even Naomi may be set up to be a secondary villain as well, but I doubt it. Alternate Kaia really wouldn't count since she was a set up character for Wayward Sisters. Just my thoughts. (Chayne Doss (talk) 13:32, April 13, 2018 (UTC))