not sure if anyone knows this, but for the season four premiere, lazarus rising, pamela barnes, a psychic bobby and sam go to see, sees azazel in a vison... now, whether or not he'll be played by fredric or not remains to be seen, but if anyone wants to add that azazel will at least briefly appear in lazarus rising, feel free
You Guys have it Listed as Azazel being the Viceroy of Hell that is False Lilith holds that posistion since she is stronger Than Azazel and Lucifer's First Demon and 2nd-in-command Smallville944 22:28, May 17, 2010 (UTC) Smallville944
Wrong, Lilith was "trapped neck-deep in the pit" while "Azazel was a tyrant, but he kept us in line". Lilith was described as "a new leader rising in the west" following Azazel's death. She was merely the first human Lucifer tainted, nothing more. Azazel was Lucifer's so-called "son" (one of the original fallen angels involved in Lucifer's rebellion) and obviously the one in charge before Lilith was ever released through the Devil's Gate. 22.214.171.124 23:53, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
Not an Angel
- Actually in lore, Azazel is a fallen angel, one of the original fallen angels that fell with Lucifer. Most of Lucifer's followers call him "Father", that doesn't mean a biological relationship. Lucifer was merely leader of the sect of angels that Azazel was part of. 126.96.36.199 21:12, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
- yeah but we have seen his demon smoke form, an
d do not angels have a more light based true form, while he MIGHT have been an angel once look at his smoke form, he is a demon now Faustfan 15:29, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
- Azazel very well could have been an angel at one time, then fell and lost his grace, therefore making him for all intents human, who then could've been tortured until becoming a demon, thus shrouding him of his angelic status and rendering him as an unsually powerful demon. Also it would mean that Lucifer could attempt to hide this secret from Azazel and call him "Son" instead of "Brother". Professor Awesome 19:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC) Kesslerbeast
- ALL demons are fallen angels in lore but in "Supernatural", all demons were once human. Lilith herself was once human and she was the strongest demon and the progenitor of the species. Since Azazel has never been stated to be any different than any other demon, Occam's razor says we just go with the assumption that he was also human once and write the page accordingly until an episode in "Supernatural" flat-out says, "Remember Yellow Eyes? Yeah, he was an angel."
- He did say he was an angel once in the anime series when trying to convince Meg Masters mom to help him. Is that proof enough for you? Professor Awesome 00:22, July 21, 2012 (UTC) Kesslerbeast
- A.) The anime is set in an alternate continuity, and B.) demons lie anyway (he was talking to a highly religious woman at the time and may have been just saying that to manipulate/mess with her - which, again, demons are known to do).
Has there ever been any mention of as to who his vessel was?
When did Lilith ever grant a wish?188.8.131.52 01:57, November 24, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's ever stated who his vessel was. She offers to make a deal by standing down and quitting her plan to free lucifer, in exchange for their heads. It's not granting a wish as such but it's still making a deal. Plus she holds the contracts so I expect she could anyway.
I'll get to you in a minute, champ. But I'm proud of you--knew you had it in you. (He paralizes DEAN.) Sit a spell. So, Dean...I got to thank you. You see, demons can't resurrect people unless a deal is made. I know, red tape--it'll make you nuts. But thanks to you, Sammy's back in rotation. (Laughs) Now, I wasn't counting on that, but I'm glad. I liked him better than Jake, anyhow. Tell me--have you ever heard the expression, "If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is?"
Now Azazel says demons not only crossroads demons or all other demons he said demons popular referring to the entirety of the species. Now maybe is status as the current Ruler of Hell at the time gave him a boast like with Crowley.
So that's what this is about, these deals you're making, you don't want these people's souls.
No, I just want their children. I'm here to choose the perfect parents, like your Mommy.
Why her? Why any of them?
Because they're strong.
DEANNA peeks around the corner of the kitchen doorway, and sees what is happening, she stands there for a minute trying to formulate a plan.
They're pure, and they eat their Wheaties. My own little Master Race, they're ideal breeders.
DEAN furrows his brow, a little confused and a little frightened.
Oh, get your mind out of the gutter no ones breeding with me. Though, Mary? Man, I'd like to make an exception, so far, she's my favorite.
Behind YED, DEANNA appears
So why make the deals?
I need permission.
DEANNA comes quietly into the room, and tries to get to the Colt.
I need to be invited, into their houses, I know, I know, the- the red tape'll drive you nuts, but in ten short years, it'll all be worth it. Cause you know what I'm gonna do to your sibling? I'm gonna stand over their crib and I'm gonna bleed into their mouth. Demon blood is better than Ovaltine, vitamins, minerals, it makes you big and strong.
Understand he still had to make a deal to be invited in. That is why he either made people need to make deals like with John and Mary or location people that could have used a deal. Crossroad demons can grant deals by using a soul to make the deal and the contracts go to the current ruler or holder of deals like with Lilith before Dean went to Hell and Demon said that Lilith has all the contracts. After than Crowley had them. Now sense Azazel was the ruler at that is didn't want the souls but still needed to make deals to get inside. Inshort and idk if status as the ruler of hell is needed. He doesn't answer to anyone about deals about whether or now he keeps the souls. But he still needs a living human with a soul to cross the red-tape (the restrictions) that prevent most demons from using the deal to wrap reality to give the human their wish. But Azazel just needs the deal magic to make it happen he has more control what he does with Deals than a normal crossroad's demon.
I hope this helps. But if not this is sum it up. If Azazel or any demon would have wanted to make a demon with Soulless Sam of Season 6. It wouldn't have work. The soul is just the tool to make the Deal'e effects real. As Crowley said the Deals are a spell that give the human what they want. The soul is a needed part. But depending on the demon determines how the soul plays he part. In Azazel's case he didn't have to answer to anyone about deals but is still bound by the one singular rule no Soul to activate the spell no Deal making.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:20, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
King of Hell
In the Salute to Season 7 thing, wasn't there a comparison of Crowley and Azazel as Kings of Hell? In other words, was Azazel (sort of indirectly) confirmed to have been King of Hell and we can add that as fact to his page?
Lilith > Azazel
Call Azazel the former King of Hell all you want, but don't say that he is more powerful than Lilith. Kripke himself in an interview said Lilith is more powerful than Azazel.
- Kripke: Currently that's just the meatsuit she's wearing. The reason we were inspired by Lilith is that we're moving up the demonic hierarchy. Lilith is higher than Azazel, Yellow-Eyes. She's a pretty high echelon demon, you don't get much higher than her until you start diffing into Lucifer territory.
The only reason Azazel was leading the demons during the earlier years of the story is because Lilith was trapped deep in the pit, and had to be released by other demons first.
Well for the first thing, strength/power and rank don't always go together with demons, for instance Guy was one of the weakest demons on the show, yet he outranked Jackson who was powerful enough to telekinetically hurl three hunters at once. Likewise Meg was shown to be stronger than her brother Tom, yet Tom she followed Toms orders. For a third example, Samhain had powers beyond any other demon (mind control, summoning, necromancy) and yet he was still bellow Lilith who didn't posses any of theses. Just because Lilith ranks higher, it doesn't mean she is more powerful, she only ranks higher because she is older, and age and power don't always go together either, Rubys seven hundred years old (as she says she was alive during the plague) and is still a very week black eyed demon, while Crowleys less than four hundred, and was still a powerful demon, even before he became king of hell.
Secondly although I somewhat agree with your point FTWinchester, I would like to point out that Azazel refeared to the demons being released as "his army" and as Lilith was being realsed it can be assumed he thought she would follow him. Also it should be noted that Lilith was not mentioned anywhere in Azazels hierachy (as confirmed in Sin City) and that following his death the demons didn't automatically kneal before Lilith, she was the "new leader" and had to conqure them before they obeyed (check the first few episodes of season three if you don't belive me.)
Plus (and this isn't part of my argument, mearly my personal thoughts) truthfully she nevered seemed that powerful, the only great power she ever showed was White light, and as flashy as that is its hardly that impressive, I mean destroy a whole building and people inside? Azazel could already do that (Pilot, Salvation, All Hell Breaks Loose One) and it was hardly a unqiue power considering Samhain also possesed it, and he was clearly much lower on the hierachy than she was, she never seemed that powerful, and never showed any powers that were either than impressive or unique. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:04, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Well to be fair, lilith is the first demon and as a general rule the first is usually the strongest. Secondly, Azazel has shown more abilities than lilith but he had much more screen time and almost every power he has shown, other black eyed demons have displayed (eg. Abaddon showed memory control, brady showed pyrokinesis, tammi, meg, crowley, abaddon all showed biokinesis) the only ones not really shown by other weaker demons were weather control and dream walking. Lilith is also described with much higher respect like "a real leader" and "messiah" where as Azazel is just described as "holding them together". plus Azazel is the only demon who was loyal enough and a great enough vision to want to free lucifer while lilith doesnt care about lucifer so there's nothing in that to imply Azazel is stronger or even was king of hell. Kripke's comment did also imply strength as he went on to say " you don't get much higher than her until you reach lucifer". I think the mere fact that Azazel appeared in far more episodes, was actually trying to kill sam and dean unlike lilith and that Azazel's powers have been shown by low level demons give enough evidence to show Lilith is stronger and of higher rank. Furthermore, you can't really argue that unique abilities makes a demon very strong as you imply with Samhain as the seven deadly sins possessed very unique abilities and were not nearly as strong as azazel who displayed abilities that were mostly used by lower black eyed demons.
True first generally is the strongest, but its speculation to apply that to all, true he did have more screentime (not much more though) plus you have to put them in preportion Abbadon was a knight of hell, one of the most powerful there is, and she never showed the ability to erase memory's, mearly read them by partially possing a person, Brady never actually showed Pyrokinesis, he mearly stated he was the on who killed her for all we know he could have simply started the fire with matches (or was lying to anger Sam) and none of them (except Crowley) have ever showed biokinesis on Azazel's level, and he's pretty much a higher (or upper middle) demon any way. Now Lilith was called the real leader in comparison to Sam (who Azazel planned to make his follower,) so thats hardly that impressive, and considering the other demons called him "father" I would hardly say he was that little respected, presumably different demons have different opinions. The rest I agree with, till the bit about suggesting it claims more power, all it states is rank, and I'm arguing that rank and power don't always go together. Plus he was never trying to kill Sam, he wanted him alive, and Lilith wanted them dead (or atleast dean dead). Plus by your own argument, Lilith is weaker, as all her powers (save one) have been shown by low level demons (and no other demon has shown them to Azazel's level) so in esence that makes Azazel stronger. Besides her white lights hardly unique as Samhain also had it, while no demon to date has shown Dream walking or weather manipulation.
And I don't know why your arguing that, both Samhain and the seven deadly sins were higher demons, azazel mearly had more powerful and more unique powers. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Azazel appeared in eight episodes, lilith appeared in four, thats a lot more. Abaddon showed the ability to at the very least control someones memory and also on both occasions Azazel had to make a deal when using this power. How could he start a fire that originated from a human body pinned to the ceiling with matches? Also both abaddon and alastair harmed two individuals with biokinesis at once unlike azazel. and crowley was much more powerful. Azazel shows respect only from lucifer loyalists, as the seven deadly sins didnt care what he wanted after he died. Lilith is shown to have fear and respect from almost all demons whether they care for lucifer or not. Lilith didnt want dean dead until after he was ressurected as she needed him to break the first seal, azazel did want dean dead because he thought john would be the one. furthermore, causing rain and storms is not nearly as cosmic a power as blowing a station apart by waving your hand. My arguement was that azazel was clearly of higher authority and was also stronger than the sins, so stating that unique abilities dont necessarily mean stronger which is what you're previous comment about Samhain implied.
True but often in Cameo's, in no episode I can think of did he appear for more than five to ten minutes. And theres nothing to say Azazel had to make a deal, mearly he didn't, after all what advantage would it be having people forget him? He was clearly unafraid of hunters (and angels). That is a point, I'm remebering the episode wrong, still we have no proof he actually did it, he mearly claimed he did, demons lie. So Azazel likes focusing on one at a time, so what, you can't compare the damge they did. And all Crowley had was a faster version of Azazels. And I find it hard to believe that only the lucifer loyalists respected him as "all" the demons followed him, and by this point, as stated by Azazel and Casey, Lucifer was considered mythical. So what if they disobeyed him after he was dead, Crowley disobeys Lilith's orders now she's dead, demon leadership generally works on fear and punishment, if there gone, why bother following them? Plus most of the who wants to kill who, would have only been gained through foresight, and Azazel tried to kill dean at point blank in devils trap, sure he saved him in MTOD but that was deal, and no demon can break a deal if made, and that was the only time he met him till all hell breaks loose. And sure its powerful, but its hardly unique (unlike azazels power) and he could also destroy buildings with ease, as he showed on mulitple occasions. You have a point there, but still they have so show something. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:21, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
lilith appeared in each scene for ten mins max. thats why its likely an effect of resurection not an ability as having dean lose his memory or john for that matter wasnt an advantage. theres nothing to prove hes unafraid of angels. hunters yeah hes definatly not afraid of hunters but what demon is? plus abaddon burned down a building in a few seconds too. Crowley caused a girl to explode by snapping his fingers which only archangels have shown the ability to do. thats much more powerful. liliths order was to let the apocalpse play out not obey lucifer. yeah with fire. lilith just lifted a hand and it blew up instantly.
True, but for your second, thats entirely speculation. The fact he didn't react in anyway when he found out dean had angel friends, and procceeded to mock them seems to implie he doesn't fear atleast low level angels. And a lot of demons seem to fear dean. How do we know she burned it down in seconds? We don't see her doing it, and a Time travel spell would take you to the same point (roughtly) considering it would have taken her more time to mix the ingredents, than it took her to arrive. Again when they did it it was with higher beings not humans, all crowley was doing was putting on a show, grated it was impressive, but what Azazel did was crueler. So he doesn't follow Lucifers orders either so my point still stands. True but still, no one cares how its done, if it had the effect, his even caused more damage, part of the building was still standing, he turned the round house to ash. Besides its still not unique.General MGD 109 (talk) 23:02, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
its speculation either way whether you thinks its an ability or an effect. that'd be because he can cover his tracks wrll. so? crowley mocks them all the time but hes much weaker. deans not any old hunter and he kicks their ass either way. crowley wasnt trying to be cruel just indimidating and i think he was successful and it showed great potential. crowley didnt disobey lilith just looked out for himself. no but azazels isnt unique either.
Not so much speculation, more reading betwen the lines. True, true, and I was talking about Azazel who was trying to be cruel. And I'm not saying it wasn't impressive or powerful, I'm just saying I don't think it proves much, Okay it appears that neither of us are going to convice the other, we could stay her arguing to judgement day, and let this argument decay into who knows what, how about we simply keep this the way it is, where it doesn't staight either is anymore powerful than the other, in my mind, and based on my evidence he's stronger or atleast equal, in your mind its lilith, lets just keep it that way okay? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:14, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
agreed. i think if its kept indifferent as far as strength goes its fair as neither of us can confirm who is stronger. as far as rank goes i believe kripke's word is law but i dont think anyones arguing on that point. thanks for the debate.
- Well, I would have weighed in on this, but I would agree on you and the anon's decision to disagree on the matter. Personally, I take Kripke's word for it, and I wouldn't want to have to comb through every ability or description used on both demons because there are meta/external factors affecting how the two demons were described or depicted.
- However, although I personally believe Lilith to be the most powerful demon (especially in the light of the Knights of Hell, who were among the first to fall, and handpicked by Lucifer), for neutrality's sake because of the lack of supporting canon details, I am capable of accepting statements of uncertainty on who really is more powerful. That I would agree to what we keep on the articles so we follow the wiki's policy on neutrality. FTWinchester (talk) 04:37, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
Azazel > Angels.
Can we please stop stating that Azazel can over power angels. There is no evidence to suggest this idea and it is purely speculation. The mere fact that Azazel would cover his tracks so thoroughly implies he isn't able to defend himself against them or that he is at the very least he is anxious of their involvement. So there is really nothing to imply he is stronger than Angels.
Well he never showed any fear of them, if he was really that afraid of them wouldn't he have left? Besides is really worrying that he might not be able to stop the entire force of heaven interfearing with his plans that anxious? Expecially considering it was plan to select Lucifers vessel, and his freedom. And Azazel is clearly stronger than Alastair, and Alastair is stonger than normal angels, its no so much unwaranted speculation, as it is reading between the lines, which is allowed. Still I'll wait for your response before adding it back. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:09, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, true its obvious he couldnt fight all of heaven cause no demon could do that. But Azazel clearly had a firm knowledge of the plan of the Apocalpse so he would probably know that the senior management of heaven wouldnt want to stop Azazel just the low level grunts who were kept in the dark. So it could imply he was anxious of the angels might smite him. How do we know that Azazel is stronger than Alastair? He's clearly of higher rank and a greater visionary but in the case of strength Alastairs shown to be equally as strong. Also Alastair's not really the sort who would want to free Lucifer as he just seems to love torturing others and therefore wants the Apocalpse. While Azazel is a high luicfer loyalist so it makes sense for him to be a leader but it doesn't necessarily make him stronger.
Well not neccessary, Azazel is only a demon, much of what he knows he gained from talking to Lucifer for a few minutes, and any information on heaven's opinion of him would be thousands of years out of date, so Azazel would have no idea (or atleast no certainty), that upper management would want to break lucifer out. Also Azazel is definatly stronger than Alastair, for starters Alastairs only great displays of power was his resistance and his strenght, however Azazel had many unique (mental manipulation, weather control,) and rare (biokinesis, highest display of Pyrokinesis for a demon), plus he was clearly stronger than alastair, holy water still hurt Alastair, it didn't even affect Azazel, salt still hurt Alastair, it had no effect on Azazel, iron could trap Alastair, it had no effect on Azazel, if thats not conclusive proof on him being stronger I don't know what is. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:13, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Not true, alastair wasnt burned by iron when he was restrained with it (by a devils trap) but azazel was unable to cross iron lines (albeit a devils trap but that is more of a cant exit thing than a cant enter thing). Holy water i'll grant you, although azazel was only sprinkled with it while alastair took a goblet to the face and had it injected into his veins so you could argue that intensity has something to do with it, the fact that when sam only had a flask full and ruby thought it would be useless supports this. Also azazel was knocked off his feet when shot with rocksalt so hes clearly not fully immune. Furthermore, alastair used biokinesis on two individuals at once which shows greater skill with this power and many mid tier demons have used pyrokinesis.
I don't think he couldn't cross it, mearly if he did he would be trapped in place, like what happens to any demon who crosses into a Devils trap, presumbaly it being so large wouldn't have an effect on this, and when was he knocked down by a shotgun blast? I don't recall that ever happening, besides, even if he was, he was still possesing a person, so a shotgun blast should have knocked him down regarldless. That is true about the ammount of holy water, but it still reacted when it touched him, for Azazel it was mearly water, regarless of the ammount, it didn't react (when it touches demons it normally produces steam) plus the holy water did hurt him, but so did the knife and that wasn't enough to stop him, so why should the water (my reason for why ruby said it was useless). Um, all he did was cause the momental pain, Azazel was able to cause a Hemoridge, slowly puling a person appart from the inside, just because he focused one person doesn't mean he couldn't affect two, the sheer damage in comparsion is not comparable. And none have ever demonstrated it to anywhere near Azazel's level, he was able to burn down entire buildings in minutes. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:59, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
well he wouldnt be trapped as the huge demon army would break the lines for him. Samuel shoots him when hes in the middle of a deal. Yeah but the water might have restrained him enough to exorcise him verbally but clearly ruby thought it wouldnt. well alastair was in more of a hurry and anna was his focus. plus crowleys vunerable to holy water and his level of biokinesis was far greater and his pyrokinesis was far more controlled. and if brady was telling the truth he was equally as strong with fire
Oh yeah, but still barley has any effect on him, other demons it praticaully cripples. No he wouldn have been trapped it was still a devils trapped. The huge demon army escaped because there were thousands of them, thats to much for the trap, even I'm not going to suggest Azazels as powerful as thousands of demons. Why? He even enjoyed the pain, so why should it stop him? All deans torture did little more than anger him. True again, but were getting into speculation. Crowleys is a lot weaker, he can only do simple tricks, nothing that impressive, and all his biokinesis is is a faster version of Azazels, don't forget he also caused multiple cattle mutilations. And again thats if. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:21, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah but if he knew he was going to release an army then he could just open the door himself and then leave. well they hadnt met him and even so he doesnt enjoy pain he just can shrug it off and is unimpressed by it. Azazel caused internal bleeding. crowley did this but also caused a girl to explode by snapping his finger which is something only archangels and cas have been able to do. so thats much more powerful. that was an affect not an ability, otherwise you could say abaddons lightning storms were the same as Azazels weather control. Crowleys actually displayed a much wider variety of abilities than either lilith or azazel but i would still say hes weaker than them
No demons can't move once there in a devils trap, presumably the size has no affect on this, or else they would be able to walk around the edges, or turn around, rather than be forced to stand still. Azazel never actually finished, he was interupted, and he was killing dean by slowly ripping him appart fromt he inside, although what Crowley did was flashyer, what he was doing was crueler. Plus when they do it its to higher not humans, Crowely was trying to make a big show so why not, others generally don't go so far. Plus you can't honestly be claiming you think Crowelys stronger than Azazel? The guys like upper middle. You may have a point, however Azazels was implied to be consious rather than affect, as it didn't always occur, while Abaddons was simply an affect. And I don't know, he's shown telekinesis, biokinesis, technopathy, thermokinesis and reality warping, so has Azazel. And yes he is a lot weaker. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:56, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
thats speculation. they can spin around like crowley did and fall ove so presumably they can walk to the edge. but it shows great potential as well. no crowleys weaker or equal at best. im just saying high powers doesnt mean stronger. so lilith is probably stronger than azazel. what shows it was voluntery? yeah but hes also shown invisibilty, thermokinesis and very proficent in all other powers especially telekinesis.
Okay I think were losing the plot of this argument, we started off with angels, now where onto Crowley (and I can't believe he's equal, invisibillty sure, I'll give you that one, but still Holy water was enough to stop him, rock short was agonising to him, he's no where near as powerful) and truthfully you mention it you may have a point, but then its specualtion so it doesn't count regardless. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:07, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
yeah we have :) . he wasnt knocked unconcious by rocksalt and he recovered faster. true but i think saying azazels definately stronger than angels is also speculation. hes clearly powerful but im not sure hes that strong. i think hes just above crowley. very powerful and cunning but not strong enough to take angels.
Well techniqually it never stated he was stronger than Angels, just suggested it, because if you recal "as a higher demon, it is likely he is strong enough to take on angels, this implied by the fact he doesn't show any fear to them." I personally I think he's way higher, on lilith's level if not above. Still thats a different argument.
How about we end this by saying, something like "as a higher demon, it is likely Azazel can take on low level angels, but as he never meets any, this isn't confirmed."? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:17, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
I'm cool with that, i think that's fair. i just feel to say he can over power angels is a bit of speculation. but i think that what you've just stated is reasonable and fair. sorry to keep the debate for so long.
If I may interject, but I highly disagree with your suggestion, General. Stating that as a higher demon, Azazel can likely take on a low level angels, but it's unconfirmed because he has never met any is blantant speculation. It should not be added to the page as there no evidence to definitively support it. 184.108.40.206 23:40, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Do you want to reread through this entire argument? Anyway I'm not going to have the same argument twice, so sure remove it, but just for the record its not speculation (speculation is where you make claims based on no or scarce evidence) its called reading between the lines (where you simply connect the dots, between facts) now goodbye. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:45, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
There is no need for an attitude, General. In addition, depending on the extent of those facts, reading between the lines sometimes is no different than speculating. The fact is we know very little, if not any about the comparsion between Azazel and angels to definitively state the former can take on the latter. It's like stating Leviathans can do the same with the archangels based on Cas's quote alone "You know, Leviathan can kill angels. There's a reason why my father locked them in Purgatory. They are the piranha that would swallow the whole aquarium," which we both know he was referring to either angels as species or regular ones. As I have seen you say before, if it has not been stated or shown in the series, than it should go without saying. 220.127.116.11 00:11, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
You just killed your entire argument. Guesstimate, make an indirect inference - hypothesize what's already been proven. Alastair, a Demon, has overpowered Castiel, an Angel, and Lilith and Azazel are stronger than Alastair. So, therefore, if they fought, both Lilith and Azazel could battle and Angel. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:44 PM, February 10th 2013
First of all, I find your words to be very belittling, ImperiexSeed, as such I offended as well as I strongly suggest that you start being respectful to other users' opinions if you want to remain an Admin. Now in regards to the comparision to Alistair overpowering a pre-Serarph Castiel as proof, I find that insuffecient as he accomplished that feat once, so we do not know how he would fair against other angels in the same class as Castiel at the time nor any others below archangels and in turn Azazel and. Lith as well. As I said before, we know very little, if not anything about the comparision between Azazel and angels to consider the likeyness that the latter could take the former down as fact. Escpecially because as the General pointed out himself, Azazel has never met any angels, so stipulates it can not be confirmed. As such, it is indeed speculation as it has yet be stated nor proven to be true in the series at this time. 18.104.22.168 02:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
Well actually, he may not have directly fought them, but he was certainly aware of them, as shown in 'the begining' and capable of covering his tracks from them.
But on the first confrontation with Alastair alongside his 2 demon minions, with Uriel, Castiel fought Alastair while Uriel used the angel hand kill thing, but castiel attempted it on Alastair the ability failed and he at least evenly fought him, before willing vaporizing his own vessal.
Also at what point is it believed Castiel became Seraph? because in season 6, I remember him shoving a then king of hell crowley across the room into a wall and cracking it, visivally shaking the demon, were Crowley gets the nerve to think he can ever face Castiel I don't know.
But back to Azazel, I think he could stand a Seraph, as although not stated, it is alluded to the Knights of hell being 'very pure and very strong' were hunted down by Archangels, suggesting only they could kill such an ancient demon, of which I believe Azazel was one of, and Lilth trembled at the idea of a being in the same tier as her creator, and fled to prevent ending up like the knights, so yes, I certainly believe that Azazel and Lilith to overpower a Seraph and Alastair at least would not go down easy.
King of Hell
There is nothing in the show that states that azazel was ever the king of hell and as designer of the master plan of course he was commanding any demons that were on earth. plus the fact meg didnt care about the master plan shows azazel wasnt commanding every demon on earth so thats not just speculation its wrong. Stating that azazel is of high rank in hell is fact and clear but saying he was the highest in rank is speculation.
Okay one it doesn't actually state it, it just suggests it, your alternative is stating he's probably high in rank, thats daft he's definatly very high in rank in hell. Two what are you talking about? It was confirmed he was the designer of the plan, it was him that found Lucifer, it was him that organised the plan to free lilith, it was him who presumably came up with the seal breaking (that last bit might not be true but the other two are), He was the plan's architect. And what makes you say he wasn't comanding all demons on earth? In every one of his apperances he's got many demon lackys, don't forget before the gate opened, demons were are rare phernomana, plus Bobby states in All Hell breaks Loose that since recently, all the demonic activity has spiked, demonic possesion is at record high, and demonic omens are centered around the devils trap, Azazel even admits it was him who gave the orders for this. Plus on every occasion other demons are mentioned, he calls them "My" he's clearly there leader. And Meg was obeying him, he simply hadn't filled her in on the plan yet, whose to say she wasn't obeying the plan? Surely killing of all the hunters was a good idea as they were interfearing in his activities, plus it hits the winchesters personally. Next It doesn't state it, it mearly suggests it, and gives the possibility that he is just the highest demon free, I'm trying to be leanent, but some people just seem to ignore the evidence, and then you accuse me of speculation? I don't know. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:23, February 26, 2013 (UTC)
- Um....actually, he's not of the highest rank - Lilith is (per, Creator Eric Kripke's own words). He is, however, (apart) 'of' the highest hierarchy. In-verse, it's said that he held the entire demon faculty (Black-Eyed, Crossroad demon (Red-Eyed), and presumably White-Eyed) together. However....again, he was not the highest demon, Lilith was. I came to learn that. There are many quotes that imply that Azazel was the King of Hell at a point. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:43 PM, February 26th 2013
- The demon signs were higher because the plan was in motion and they finally had a goal to achieve but that doesnt show anything for azazels authority just that most demons supported him. and meg clearly says "i dont give a rats ass about the master plan" so obviously not every demon was obeying azazel as she wasnt. killing the hunters doesnt relate to the plan as thats what demons do anyway, she just wanted revenge. azazels comment about his army is irrelevant as the army had nothing to do with the master plan. freeing lilith and finding lucifer a vessel was the point. azazel also couldnt break the seals as lilith had to do it as well as be the last one. plus lucifer told him about the seals. There is nothing to suggest azazel was "king of hell" just that he was of high rank and very crafty by creating the master plan but that doesnt mean he is the highest rank, held that position and controlled every demon on earth. no quote realy states he was "king". tyrants arnt necessarily powerful, they just inspire fear and are dicks. and her quote that "he held us together but when you did him in IT fell apart" implies the plan fell apart not hell and holding us together sounds more like a general than a king.
- Futhermore, his rank has nothing to do with leading the plan. he led the plan because he was intelligent enough to design it but that doesnt prove he led the plan because he is of high rank. so commenting he was the highest ranking demon free is also speculation.
- You don't seem to grasp how demons work, if demons followed the smartest one, Crowley would have been leading the show from the begging, Azazel controled all the other demons, he was stronger than all (except perhaphs lilith, thats a different debate) the demons, if he was simply a smart demon no one would have cared, most demons believed lucifer was a myth. I admit I was wrong about meg, but then she's just escaped hell, and even Lucifer had desereters, so what? Also your statements of the quotes more surport my argument than yours, its equally speculation to say thats what they mean, fromt he context it seems the leadership, as thats what they were disscussing, Azazel was directly described as the demons leaders on mulitple occasions, even by other demons, and I never said he was the highest ranking demon, I said the highest ranking free demon, as in out of hell. Which Lilith wasn't. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:12, February 26, 2013 (UTC)
- no you seem to think rank means power or vice versa. it doesnt with demons. but there is no proof that he was the highest out of hell. they are following the smartest one as crowley is now the king. but if the smart one has lucifer as a ally of course theyll follow him. my arguement nothing proves azazel is king of hell. a general or visionary yes maybe or even a leader but king of hell is speculation.
- Okay this arguments getting a bit disjoined, there following Crowley because he's the strongest demon left alive, and he took over the power vacum, but he's not as strong as Azazel, Lilith or Alastair. Your also missing the point the majority of demons didn't belive lucifer was real till Lilith started breaking the seals, the demons followed Azazel, it was his plan, he ruled them, I don't personally think he ever was king of hell, as Crowley made up that title, and due to his devotion, he would have felt that was his fathers title. I'm just using it as an example, also it never states he is king of hell, it just states it was likely, because it is, there is evidence he ran all the demons, there for ruled hell, it just wasn't stated. Now is that clear?General MGD 109 (talk) 20:36, February 26, 2013 (UTC
- you think crowley is stronger than every other demon in hell including all white eyed demons and ones as old as samhain? true but many of them believed he might return one day but werent devoted enough to finding him. they followed his plan because it was a chance for paradise on earth or for them to see their god walk the earth. the title of king of hell probably stands as it seems to be an actual position as it has been used by demons, angels ect. i just feel there is no reason to state that azazel was probably the king of hell because theres nothing to say he was. more likely he was a high ranking, loyal follower of lucifer who gain a lot of authority through his visionary mind and full proof plan. so why not just leave it out and state what we know rather than what is possible. to the same extent you could argue lilith was hells monarch but didnt command the plan. but personally i dont think its right to say eother way
- Wiki contributor. I'll be honest here, you're piece makes my eyes hurt - you should really capitalize the first letter of a word at the beginning of each sentence. As well as propernouns, like names, i.e. Azazel. Anyway. It's established, the demons are run by a King, and each eon (or, a time period) has one. Currently, it's Crowley....for some reason. Samhain, DEFINITELY, would be a better benefactor for the crown of Hell, but....seeing as he literally can't leave until every 600 years, he wouldn't have much widespread authority except in the domain of Hell. So, Hell, at every point in history, has a King, who governs it's body - the demonic army. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:35 PM, February 26th 2013
- Besides, it's not always about who's the most powerful. Crowley is only the king because he's savvy and took advantage of the chaos that followed Lucifer's re-imprisonment. No, he's not as strong as demons like Samhain, but he's an opportunist who got where he is through careful strategy. That being said, Azazel was described by Casey as a "tyrant" who "held them all together," which sounds a lot like a king to me. Ensephylon (talk) 01:15, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
- My apologies, But that's what I'm saying. A tyrant who held people together sounds more like a general not a monarch. But either way, it is never stated that Azazel was the King of Hell or was the strongest demon free from Hell, therefore it shouldn't be stated on the page.
- Thanks for the capitalization and grammar. :) ImperiexSeed appreciates it. Anyway. Well.... (at that point in time) Azazel was, indeed, the strongest demon that was out of Hell. But, when Lilith was freed, it could've changed. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:51 PM, February 27th 2013
- I have no objection to saying that Azazel was a high ranking demon or the leader of the master plan because both of those are confirmed. I just feel it's wrong to assume that Azazel was the king of hell because that position could potentially have belonged to another demon. And it's also possible that there was a stronger demon free from hell who was like Samhain (powerful but had no sense of vision, limited intelligence and had no interest in Lucifer and no plan). Would it not just be fair to keep the page as it is with no references to the king of hell but just state he ranked very high in hell's hierarchy?
- Okay lets just keep it the way it is now, it seems to suit everybody, and I find in these discussions genrally the only way to end them in these circumstances, is to compromise. So lets just keep it saying he ranked very high in the Hierachy, and was leader of Lucifers plan, and the demons on earth. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:04, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm the idea of Azazel being the most powerful free demon is interesing as the others were confined in hell, like Crowley is now the most powerful free as at least one known white eyed/semi-white eyed demon being Samhain, is trapped in his own area or cage in hell.
- However, there is the matter of Alastair, who, like Azazel, could travel between Hell and Earth at will, Alastair himself stating he was last on earth in Poland 1943, during WWII but prefers Hell, why was he not king? I'm guessing it is because he was content with his position in hell as grand inquisitor, training Azazels 'daughter', Meg himself in the art of torture, so likely had no intention of contesting for the crown, but indeed, Azazel was likely King, although I have always seen him as Hells General, seemingly knowing of Lucifers Crypts, entrusted with that information, strongly suggesting he was one of Lucifers first and very much favoured, I still think he was leader of the knights at least, but i'm going off topic, I believe Azazel was indeed among the most powerful and high ranking of Demons of any age, thinking back when the demon of pride suggesting that if Azazel was alive he would, possibly out of fear, follow him "now that your yellow eyed friend is dead, we don't HAVE to" or something along those lines.
- Princepurple (talk) 01:14, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know why Alastair, or any other demon, would deny the opportunity of assuming the position as King of Hell. It seems to give the holder an elevation in power, as seen in Crowley. Well, yes, he was a general, but also the King. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:20 PM, March 24th 2013
- Yeah I actually believe he was the originally intended king, by lucifer himself, sure lilith came first along with some others, but Azazel was his prize demon, the one created to be king, Azazel's knowledge of the crypts grants high chance that he was around to be 'hand picked' directly giving his and lucifers implied prior knowing before he found him in his cage, so the idea suggested about different era's having different kings, I can't say i'm up for, more so that Azazel was the single King for a very long time, crowley eventually replacing him, although lilith obviously held the ruling position during her time out of hell, Azazel fully aware of her and were she was.
- Princepurple (talk) 01:45, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
I have noticed something about Azazels grasp of telekinasis, he seemed to, on every occasion unless i'm mistaken, to use it with any gesture, pinning women to walls, he also does this to Sam and Dean when in Johns body, and while effortlessly holding sam, he also, with only a gaze, caused severe biological trauma to dean.
He also does this when dean attempts to shoot him with the colt, then, whilst holding it mid-air, does that whatever you call it, pulling back the clip thing and getting ready to fire (not seen season 2 in a while though, he may have held it).
The only other demons I remember not using telekinasis are Tom and Meg, Azazels 'children', with lilith always using gestures, as did Alastair, possibly Abaddon, and also Crowley.
Does this mean Azazel's ability in the field of telekinasis was supirior to others? or does it just imply that he did not wish to use gestures???
You have a point, virtually all telekinetic users use gestrues, while Azazel mostly used simply his mind, I always assumed gestures were either focusing or directing the telekinetic energy, and Azazel was simply so powerful that he didn't need to either focus or direct his powers. I make a mention of this on his page. Your right, Lilith, Alastair and Crowley always used gestures, as did the seven deadly sins, Brady, Tammi, Meg and Tom all used gestures. As far as I remeber Abaddon did it once, but the majority of the time she used gestures. I guess its simply a sign of Azazel's power. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:48, March 25, 2013 (UTC)
I think there really is no clear correlation between use of gestures and the magnitude of telekinesis/power. A gesture can accompany a feat that is either weak or powerful (think how a snap of a finger can obliterate an archangel, while it could also accompany something as simple as heating the handle of a blade). Granted, those examples did not cover telekinesis alone, but a great magnitude of telekinetic display could also be accompanied by a gesture (Lilith forced every staff of the police station to look while she is flaying Nancy's Skin, both of which are great feats by themselves). Also, it's not true that Azazel never used gestures. Watch In The Beginning--he (while possessing samuel) used his hand to fling Dean away from the Colt. FTWinchester (talk) 03:43, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
I also took a look at All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2 -- Azazel used gestures in there, too. The clearest one is when he forced Sam to 'sit a spell', he held his hand up, and then using his other hand to pin Dean against a tombstone a second time. FTWinchester (talk) 03:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
I think as we don't really know how telekinesis works, we should stick to demons when discussing this. You have a point a lot of beings use gestures, however angels comonly use it without them. Onto demons, upto date as far as I can remeber no other demon (save Abaddon) has ever used telekinesis without gestures, admitadly Azazel did use gestures a few times, but the majority of his use, was mearly thought. I think that counts as something interesting, as your statement on lilith's power, I personally doubt that that ever happened, but thats a different debate. You have to admit the fact that he is the only demon who doesn't use gestures for telekinesis, most of the time is interesting. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:35, March 26, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. Although, on some scenes Brady also appeared to use telekinesis without gestures, and Casey in Sin City conjured a whirlwind-earthquake-telekinetic mix (granted she closed her eyes first, but she was inside a devil's trap to begin with) and Alastair's first appearance involved a blasted door with no visible gestures from the demon. Of course, I could be wrong and there might have been gestures on those examples depending on what the camera angle did not show. FTWinchester (talk) 02:39, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
That is a good point. Also, though he's not a demon, max miller didn't have to use gestures and Tom didn't use a gesture when he pinned John to a wall with telekinesis.
Actually Tom did, he held his hand up when he was throwing John, what Casey did was a spell (as devils traps prevent them using telekinesis), so that doesn't count, I don't recall Brady doing telekinesis without gestures, and as Alastair was behind that door, I don't think we can say. You have a point with Max, but my point is the vast majority do use gestures. So it should be noted, as most don't.General MGD 109 (talk) 18:22, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
Actually I checked, Tom is out of shot when he pins John and when he is on screen both of his harms are by his side and his hands are clenched but like alastair we never see him make a move. It's likely we would have seen Alastair put his hand down as there's not a lot of time between the door opening and him appearing. Brady throws Dean across the room with both arms and hands at his side. Also a black eyed demon throws Dean across a room when he's tied up without moving his head or hands. So it's probably a preference thing rather than power but it might be worth noting. Also casey didn't utter any form of incantation like Meg did so it was most likely not a spell.
It's been stated that Azazel hardly ever used gestures when using telekinesis but I can only find one time when he didn't raise his arms in "Devil's Trap". He doesn't use telekinesis in "In my time of dying" or "All Hell breaks loose part 1". In "salvation" he clearly uses head gestures and in "All Hell breaks loose part 2" he uses hand gestures when taking the colt and restraining Sam and Dean and moves his head in the direction he throw Dean. And in "in the beginning" he uses telekinesis four times and each times he gestures with his hands. So I don't think twice is really enough to say he hardly ever uses gestures as other demons occasionally do the same (like Casey or Alastair) and no demon really ever shows telekinesis without any gesture ( like what Max Miller does).
Azazel vs Angels
Can we really say that Azazel was unafraid of angels? I mean the fact that he would cover his tracks rather than fight shows that he was at least anxious about there involvement, unlike demons like Alastair who would fight but found it tedious. Also his comment about "you must have friends in high places" doesn't show he was unafraid just that he knows a lot about them and while people keep saying that he showed no visible signs of worry that doesn't mean he can take them on. I mean Crowley frequently mocks angels and yet he's not strong enough to fight them (not high ranking ones anyway).
This site has excessive fanboyism on Azazel, so there's that.22.214.171.124 16:48, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
Well compare his reaction to other demons when they first heard about angels. They were panicing, he was unfazed, sure he chose to cover his tracks, rather than face them, but there is a great difference between fearing and recognising a threat. Angels as a force are stronger than demons, so if the forces of heaven turned on him or against his plan, Azazel would lose, he's well aware of them. Crowley is different altogether, by the time he openly mocks them, he knows there's very little chance that angels will ever come looking for him, the only one that would is castiel. Azazel on the other hand is in the middle of his plan to prepare Lucifers vessel, start the appocalypse and bust the devil out of the pit, which he believes the angels will try and stop. Not to mention Crowley has met and survived angelic encounters before (mostly by running) while before the seals started breaking, no one had seen angels in two thousand years. Presumably Azazel was alive back then, but there is nothing to say he met them, he probably only knows what he does because Lucifer told him, him seemingly being Lucifers most trusted Liutenant. And is it really that excessive to like the second best villains (or atleast in the top five) this show has ever produced? General MGD 109 (talk) 19:29, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
Not really. Crowley was in the middle of searching for the word of god and was in possession of at least two tablets so a large majority of Heaven would be searching for him. Plus the demons that did panic were far lower rank and intelligence to Azazel so like Crowley it would be perfectly easy for him to run away. If Azazel has never encountered angels then its more likely he doesnt know how to fight them and would preferably run and survive. Nothing about his comments implies he is stronger than or unafraid of angels. And there's nothing wrong with liking a villain (I like most of the big bads: Azazel, Lilith, Crowley, Eve) but assuming that they are greater than the show credits them is bias which is wrong if you're writing info from canon for fans and the like.
Well I think your forgetting the majority of Heaven is still at civil war, something Crowley is well aware of, hence he doesn't really have to worry about Angels coming after him. The best Naomi could muster wasn't particually impressive. While when Azazel was working, Heaven was completely organised, had much larger numbers and was apparantly ready to act. True about the demons, however the fact that Azazel didn't seem to worried by them suggests he doesn't fear them, mearly knows that they pose a serious threat to his plans. Whether or not he has met angels before is purely speculation, as nothing has suggested either, I don't know why I brought it up. Now Azazel is on a similiar power level to Lilith, as they both are the only demons to show immunity to the same things, that makes him stronger than Alastair, because Lilith is stronger than Alastair and Alastair can fight angels. Its simply infered logic. I don't think he's greater than the show credits him, but it made it very clear he's amongst the highest of demons. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:10, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
Just like to say that Heaven was indeed organized by the time of Azazel, albeit organized by the higher angels to allow Azazel's plans to push through. Using Heaven's state of organization at that point would not be significant. Furthermore, Alastair and Lilith, both top dogs of hell did not know how to kill angels at the time. Alastair admitted it was not the demons who were killing them and that he personally did not know how to; if Lilith did know how to do so by sheer power alone, she would not just kill seven--she would kill a hundred or a thousand (On the Head of a Pin). If the first demon alive and the grand torturer of hell had no idea how to kill angels (apart from from using weapons like the Colt--in possession of a hell-traitor Crowley at the time, angel blades--which were supposedly rare at the time before angels walked the earth again, and/or Death's Scythe--was lost after Alastiar's capture and would not resurface until later located by Crowley), I am really dubious as to how Azazel would know how to kill them. At most, Azazel probably knew of the same spell that Alastair did, or planned to use the Colt, but no more than that. FTWinchester (talk) 03:18, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
Just cause Azazel didn't scream when Dean mentioned them doesn't mean he can hold his own against them. You say that Azazel is immune to holy water so he must be stronger than Alastair but Alastair didn't burn when touched by iron but Azazel can't cross iron so there's nothing to show which is stronger, only that Azazel is of higher rank. And as for the comment about angels, Naomi was completely focused on finding the word of god where as senior management wanted Azazel to succeed and seeing as he and Lilith were working together he would presumably know this.
Okay first who said anything about killing angels? I didn't say that, I didn't claim he could, no one's claiming he could, no demon can kill angels unless they have a angel blade, which they clearly didn't, because before this angels hadn't been on earth for two thousand years. Just because couldn't kill them, doesn't mean he would fear them, Alastair couldn't kill angels but he wasn't afraid of them because he was still stronger than them and knew how to exorcise them. I don't know where all this killing came from.
Second, how would Azazel know that the head angels were planning to let Lucifer out? Lilith didn't know, nor did any other demon onscreen, so how would he know? Do you think the head of heaven have secret meetings with demons? As far as Azazel knew the organised and powerful forces of heaven were willing to do anything to stop Lucifer getting out, its doubtful even Lucifer knew, all he seemed to know was some angels were with him, he never showed signs of knowing that it was planned. So my point still stands. Naomi may have been focused on finding the word of god, but only the angel tablet, which Crowley only had for five minutes before Castiel took it. Sure she wanted the gates of hell closed, but she didn't have the time or the resources to send to hunt Crowley down, something Crowley was well aware of.
Thirdly, lets give a bit of a comparison between Azazel and Alastair as you seem a bit to skeptic to how powerful they both were. Both are ancient demons, both are powerful enough to cause other demons to follow them through fear. Now lets go over Durability. Alastair was atleast resilent to Iron (if not immune, its not proven which though), however Salt and Holy water still clearly hurt him. While Azazel was completely immune to both, its entirely possible he was also immune to Iron and simply couldn't cross it because it was a devils trap made of iron (I find this unlikely though.) Both were also immune to Holy ground, and both were still affected by Devil's traps. Alastiar was also immune to the demon killing knife and lower-angels smitting, however these can't be compared as Azazel never faced either things.
Now how about feats of power? Alastair was strong enough to beat up Lower-level angels. While Azazel was strong enough to overpower spirits (which for the record are strong enough to punch around Leviathans) Alastair did fight Sam and Dean in ghost form, and didn't far so well, but as there were two of them isn't really a far example. Alastair was also a powerful telekinetic able to throw grown men through the air. Azazel could do this as well, as well as do it upon multiple targets at once (Now I'm not saying Alastair can't also do this but, he never showed it so it can't be counted.) Alastair was able to biokinetically disable both Sam and Dean at once, however the damage wasn't anything that it didn't take a five minute breather to fix, however this was probably the low point of his powers. While Azazel was able to litarly rip people open and appart. I don't think Alastair pulled off any other major feets of power adn I trust your remind me if I forgot any. As for Azazel he could control fire to a degree no other demon has shown (except maybe one), manipulate the weather (which no other demon, save maybe one can do and even then his scale is much larger), appear in dreams, make deals without requiring a soul, and possess reapers (which are intangible beings). Now I'm not saying Alastair didn't possess other powers, but he never showed any. Does this sum everything up? General MGD 109 (talk) 18:03, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
Well my latter post was more of exploratory than argumentative and it was not my intention to derail the discussion, so my apologies for that. But I stand by the first part of my post that Azazel still did not have the full force of the Heavenly Host against him (regardless of whether Azazel knew it or not), so I don't think it's a good point for argumentation/comparison vis-a-vis Naomi going against Crowley. Without a doubt, Azazel is powerful. But there's really too little we know about him going against angels. His two lines could go either way--that he's covering his tracks because he fears angels, or that he was simply acknowledging their ability to foil his plan. This is pretty much a Leviathan vs. Archangel case. I say we go neutral, as it should be, for cases like this. Say, haven't we all agreed to disagree on the Azazel vs. Lilith case and just all decided to say in our articles how it is unsure on who is more powerful? FTWinchester (talk) 18:21, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
I understand. He may not have, but he didn't really know that, he did believe they would try and stop him. Maybe they can, but I still think that if he really feared about them, he would have reacted a little bit worse, considering this is the first time that Angels have been involved in anything thousands of years. He just seems to casual. Still if you want to remain neutral okay, and maybe there isn't enough evidence to make a definate conclusion, still I think what we have points more in this direction than the other. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:15, September 3, 2013 (UTC)
If Azazel was the ruler of Hell from Lucifer's imprisonment onwards, then why was he searching for Lucifer's door alone for all those years? First of all, if he is Hell current sovreign then surely he would have to be ensuring that Hell was running smoothly. Secondly, even if the other demons had given up believing in Lucifer surely Azazel could have forced them to help him search for the door. I mean Crowley forces demons to hunt monsters and search for the word of god when he's king even though most of them hate him. So if Azazel had that power and authority over them before the master plan was devised why not order them to find the door to Lucifer's cage. Especially as this was going on for literally hundreds of years, it would have been a lot faster than acting alone. Actually, Azazel is more how I think a knight would operate as most of his actions he does himself. Lilith and Crowley often employ other demons to do their dirty work but Azazel does everything solo. Any ideas?
If I'm not wrong, Lilith & Crowley could employ demons to do their dirty work because every demon was released on earth by then. Azazel was one of the few demons to be able to travel to earth and he wasn't entirely working alone because Lucifer revealed to Sam, all the demons who had been influencing his life. RaghavDAll I need is ONE life, ONE try, ONE breath, I'm ONE man 10:44, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
Exactly, up until The Devil's Gate was opened in the end of Season two, there were very few demons on earth, before "Phantom Traveler" Sam and Dean had never met a single demon (knowingly) in "Pilot" they were actually shocked to discover John had put salt down. Azazel clearly did rule the demons as demonstrated by the fact that all of them that appeared clearly followed him (except Meg in season two, but by that point she had gone rogue and Azazel probably wasn't aware she had gotten out of hell, as he most likely didn't go back often, due to him needing to be on the top to organise his plans) its just there weren't so many demons on earth at the time, Bobby claims in "All Hell Breaks Loose" its rare upto this point to hear about more than one or two demon possessions a year. Likewise Casey described Azazel as the "Tyrant who held them all togher" after escaping so he clearly ruled hell, because he was the strongest demon free. After his death all demons were clearly glad he was gone, as it ment they were free to do what they liked, (until of course the also free Lilith conquered them all). Azazel probably did have other demons searching for Lucifers cage, its just as he's resources were very small he had to do a lot of the work himself. He also rarely does anything Solo, except for making the deals, and thats most likely because he is the only demon (upto date) who can make deals without needing a soul. In almost all his appearaces he had other demons working for him. Even when John summoned him, he took two demonic henchmen with him. General MGD 109 (talk) 10:56, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
Of course there were fewer demons on earth but there were still demons even though they were hiding or being more subtle but surely you would need all the help you can get in looking for the cage, Plus its estimated only about 300 escaped through the gate so there was probably a decent ammount already on earth. Well actually in searched for the cage solo, he made deals solo, he fed them blood and killed the parents solo, he killed all Mary Winchsters family and friends solo. He rarely used help. Also his comment about "dickless heathens" implies many demons had refused to help search as oposed to were unable to. And I'm pretty sure he says something about wandering the desert for years alone. Obviously Azazel was in charge since season 1 onwards. My question was how do we know he was ruling since before the master plan was devised.
Um, if by fewer you mean practically none then yes. I would like to know where you got that estimate from because I've never heard it before. Azazel clearly did have other demons working for him before he found Lucifers cage, as Meg had been working for him for over a century (as stated in Goodbye Stranger,). And we don't know he searched for the cage solo, he only said he spent years wandering the desert, for all we know he had other demons out looking, he simply had very finate resources. Yes he made the deals solo, because he was the only one who could make those deals, yes he fed them the blood or rather came to collect, because they were his deals, the deals only said he could come back to there house in several years, not other demons him. Nothing to say he killed the winchesters family and friends solo, if you mean the campbell family, all we know is there dead he could have sent many other demons after them. Its just he didn't have many, because there were very few demons. His comment "Dickless Heathens" was in referance to the fact that many demons had stopped believing in Lucifer, it doesn't suggest that they weren't following. Evidently he was, as the demons that were still in hell (as released for season three) knew him as there leader, likewise he refered to all the demons as his army. He clearly did rule hell. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:14, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
Well if practically none means 70 - 100 demons then yes. Sam clearly states it and I think Issac does too. Also when you consider Azazel had demons watching the special children he may have had demons watching the others as he clearly didn't know who would be Lucifer's vessel. Yes but Meg was a Lucifer loyalist while the vast majority of Hell at the time wasn't. His comment that "the others have lost faith" implies they weren't searching in that context. Ruby states that Yellow Eyes killed the Winchester family, not ordered their deaths. He was clearly leading them season1 onwards but that doesn't prove he led them previous to fiding Lucifer's cage. Also the army comment doesn't really make sense because the demons releashed weren't beingn used as an army, it was to free Lilith so that comment is kind of irrelevant. Also, it was after season 1 so it doesn't have anything to do with the point that's being raised.
I won't say anything on the matter of Azazel actually being "King" of Hell, but opening the Devil's Gate had two-fold purposes. While its primary goal was to free Lilith (which you're right about), the first demon and the one capable of breaking the seals, it also had a secondary goal of releasing demons to serve as an army in the battle against angels. How else would Lilith and Alastair work without their lackeys? Additionally, Casey, Pride and Astaroth all implied they were supposed to be led into battle/the apocalypse. FTWinchester (talk) 14:03, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
I agree, he wasn't king of hell, Being so loyal to Lucifer he wouldn't even dream of taking that title, but he did lead them. They didn't just imply it, they practically outright stated it, Casey even refurred to Azazel as "the Tyrant who held us (all the demons) together" so he must have been ruling before season 1. Not to mention we have to beg the question if he wasn't why would they suddenly change? Him finding Lucifer wouldn't have caused most of them to join him, it was made clear that up until Lilith started breaking the seals, most demons didn't even believe in Lucifer. So why would they join him? I still want to ask about those figures, because they seem to high and to low, In season one and two together, only the grand total of about nine demons appeared all together through the season. As I've already said up until Phantom Traveler Sam and Dean had never met a demon before, they also found it shocking that there father put Salt down. Likewise it was stated there was normally only two or so demonic possessions a year. As for only three hundred being released? That does sound low, but not impossible, after all I don't think three hundred demons have appeared and died/exorcised on the show just yet. Not to mention Crowley's interest in opening the devils gate again at the start of Season 8 might suggest he's starting to get low on the ground. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:23, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
You're right by the fact that "King", here, may be the wrong word to describe Azazel's rule. Although, that is the term used to describe rulers of Hell. He sees Lucifer as the Savior (for, both Azazel and Ruby recognize this) and therefore wouldn't call himself with the title, "King of Hell." From his eyes, he was "a leader" of the forces of Hell, leading it till Lucifer could manifest, "walking" with a vessel. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:58 PM, September 19th 2013
I'm just saying that if Azazel led the demons before the master plan then how could Lilith outrank him as stated by Kripke? Isn't it possible that Lilith ruled hell up until Azazel found the door and then Azazel gained command cause he was free and was the only one who knew the master plan.
Indeed, Lilth was trapped at the very bottom of the pit, it took opening the devils gate to free her. Azazel on the other hand was clearly able to leave and come to hell when he chose (as demonstrated by the fact he was able to inform all the demons down there of his plans, and then return to the earth). So yes I would say Azazel was the Viceroy, but not to Lilith, to Lucifer. I except Lilith outranks Azazel in Hell hierachy (most likely because she was the first.) However as Azazel showed no signs of planning to hand over control to her, and very few demons seemed to know her before she took over, I'm willing to bet Azazel either expected to remain in command or atleast planned to enter a joint rule with Lilith, upon her liberation. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:26, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
When sam kills lilith her eyes glow yellow maybe yellow eyes mean ınjured;when archangels defeated lucifer and hes army he maybe ınjured badly.Thıs ıs the possible reason hes eyes yellow.
Interesting idea. You're right that Lilith shows yellow eyes when Sam kills her and that would explain how he is the only one with yellow eyes. However, it seems very unlikely that any demon would survive an attack from an archangel or even a seraph. Plus demons like Alastair have been hit by white light and shown no injury except their meatsuit being destroyed. But it's still a possibilty. I recon yellow eyes is just the colour for the demons head generals and there's probably not many of them left or they're trapped so deep in hell they're not coming out.
- The yellowish glow is a different case. If you look closely, the vessel's irises were still seen, and it is not like when the entire demonic eyes completely change color (irises and all). This glow is also evident on her mouth, and arguably, with the rest of her body so in this case, I would say it is not a matter of eye color indicating strength/weakness, but rather a visual represenation of a demon dying. It is interesting to note that Lilith is the only demon to die with a bright glow instead of the usual red-orange. Alastair, a demon of the same category also glowed brightly but initially was giving off the usual orange glow. FTWinchester (talk) 14:58, January 27, 2014 (UTC)
In season 4 he said to Lucifer "It is so good to hear your voice, Padre. I have been searching for you for so long. You have no idea. The others have lost faith. Dickless heathens! But not me." and I wonder who are the others. Did he meant all the other demons generally or a certain number which I think is his class in the demonic hierarchy of power? If the second probability is true, where are they? Are the alive or dead? Are they more powerfull than the Knights of Hell?Ikmeos (talk) 23:28, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
It's more sensible to just assume that he was referring to demons as a whole, with a few demons, like Casey, remained a mentioned level of faith and trust in Lucifer. Azazel is not species or, as of yet, a class, as he's the only yellow-eyed demon to appear in an episode. Hope this helped. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:37 PM, June 10th 2014
When did Castiel show fear towards Azazel?
When did Castiel even encounter Azazel, let alone show fear of him? The only moment I can remember them being in the same episode is "In the Beginning" but Castiel doesn't choose not to fight Azazel due to fearing Azazel, he doesn't fight him because the whole point of that episode is that no matter how hard you try you cannot change the past (and the angels don't won't to change history anyway). It's only after Michael is imprisoned that angels like Balthazar try to do so. So what evidence is there that Castiel is afraid of Azazel?
His telekekenis was definitely advanced. Lilith's page also lists telekinesis. Azazel showed WAY more power potential in telekinesis. If I'm correct, advanced Telekenesis is throwing people to the wall and keeping them there. Azazel did that, without even being in the same room!
I agree. Azazel had definetly advanced telekinesis but other informations you add were unnecessary. He wasn't also vulnerable to iron for sure. SeraphLucifer (talk) 16:35, December 9, 2015 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
- Azazel definitely possessed advanced telekinesis, yes. As does definitely Castiel, Crowley, etc. As far as how to define it inverse, technically it hasn't been touched upon as to what qualifies as advanced telekinesis opposed to, say, a baseline form. And to be honest, I am quite weary to agree that throwing people to the wall and keeping them there qualifies as being advanced, that hardly seems impressive, I can easily see Max having been capable of doing that. I see advanced telekinesis as being like the ability to move things from another room, or ripping beings apart, or being able to flay someone's skin off "piece by piece." -- ImperiexSeed, 8:01 PM, December 9th 2015
- Azazel's telekinesis was good, but not that impressive. I would rather say advanced telekinesis begins by for example moving the moon 10000 miles in 3 seconds. Chuck, Amara and Death have advanced telekinesis, but a simple demon is far away from such power levels. 126.96.36.199 01:39, December 10, 2015 (UTC)
- Chuck, Amara and death, I would say, are godly telekinetics, where they can move whole solar systems, and much more, with their minds. However, on an enormously lessened scope, Azazel is an advanced telekinetic. I would definitely differentiate them this way. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:53 PM, December 9th 2015
- Azazel's telekinesis was good, but not that impressive. I would rather say advanced telekinesis begins by for example moving the moon 10000 miles in 3 seconds. Chuck, Amara and Death have advanced telekinesis, but a simple demon is far away from such power levels. 188.8.131.52 01:39, December 10, 2015 (UTC)
Not that good? He was able to keep three people pinned to walls and even physically crush ones internal organs at the same time without any hand gestures. Some demons can only throw people to the wall. Not keep them there. Azazel kept Mary pinned to the CEILING (much more gravitational force acting against keeping someone pinned to a wall) without even being in the same room! No demon has shown more skills in telekinesis than Azazel. It's really no comparison. 184.108.40.206 02:26, December 10, 2015 (UTC)
Permission to enter houses
I'm sure this would've already been covered somewhere, but why does Azazel need permissionto enter people's houses so that he can bleed into their baby's mouth? Why can't he just enter forcibly/normally like any other demon would?
"Advanced" telekinesis/ biokinesis?
Can I ask what the criteria for having "advanced telekinesis" is? Because of the demon pages on this wiki, only Azazel and Tom seem to have it listed. However, many other demons have demonstrated telekinetic and biokinetic skill equal to or greater than those of Azazel and Tom. For example, Brady demonstrated telekinetic and biokinetic skill near-identical to Azazel when he murdered Jessica (provided he wasn't lying). Crowley has demonstrated telekinetic skill far greater than any other demon (able to lift and hold a person mid-air; snap necks; pin two people to trees several feet of the ground, force humans to shoot each other; and throwing both Lucifer and Amara on seperate occassions etc.) and biokinetic skill greater than Azazel's (causing humans to explode with a snap of his fingers). Likewise, demons such as Astaroth show telekinetic skill far more impressive (such as stopping a bullet from the Colt mid-air and nearly telekinetically crushing Sam). So, why are these abilities listed as "advanced" on Azazel's page but not on the pages of demons who showed equal or superior skill with these powers?