Forums: Index The Impala Ledes, Powers and Abilities, and Personality sections need to be shortened considerably
I've seen this happen before on other wikis, where people just tack on anything and everything to sections to the point they read like condensed versions of the characters' entire history on a show. These sections often end up becoming unreadable, which means they lack maintenance.

I went on over to Castiel's "Abilities and Weaknesses" subpage just to get an example, and it's even worse than I thought. I made the text collapsible so people could scroll down and didn't copy the formatting because it didn't seem relevant.

Master Hand-to-Hand Combatant - From the beginning, Castiel was already a highly accomplished fighter, deemed to be among the best of Heaven's soldiers. His skills are sufficient to fight against stronger beings, as he was capable of landing vicious blows on Alastair before getting overpowered by him in both their altercations, and outfighting Uriel, able to hit him more than Uriel did and only losing due to his superior strength and getting surprised and hit with a crowbar. Even as a fallen angel, Castiel's skill more than made up for his diminishing power against his fellow angels, as he gave one of Zachariah's angels, armed with an angel blade, a swift trashing before killing him with his own angel blade, and easily thwarted a surprise attack from one of the angels guarding Adam's resurrected body, disarming him of his angel blade and using it to swiftly kill the angel. This skill, in addition to his powers greatly increasing after he became a Seraph, has only improved over the course of the series, partly due to his time spent with the Winchesters who are formidable combatants themselves and his brief time spent as a Hunter-in-training. His skills are shown in his fights against other inhuman beings, as he is able to disarm many beings with Angelic weaponry and then use that weapon to kill them. He has proven capable of fighting his lesser angelic brethren with ease, shown when he easily defeated one of Raphael's followers despite the latter having just disarmed and was using his angel blade against him when he had just determined Balthazar's location, forcefully tossing away the blades the angel was using against him and tossing him out of the building alongside himself, overpowered and killed Rachel despite having been injured by an angel blade, swiftly defeated Bartholomew unarmed despite holding back and Bartholomew wielding an angel blade, easily dominated Duma and two other angels simultaneously before being caught off-guard, effortlessly beat Eremiel despite him being armed by an angel blade, and even while his hands were restrained by the Supernatural Handcuffs and he was weakened from torture, swiftly overpowered and killed both Jonah and Efram. Castiel had also displayed the ability to use his skill to fight against stronger beings, as shown when up against two leviathans and surprised, after recovering from the harsh beat down, he managed to toss aside one and then punch her for Dean to decapitate her, in addition to also being able to force back Magog unarmed before using his angel blade against Magog's sword, surprise and knock Lucifer away from Sam before being soundly pinned down when he fought him alongside Sam and Dean, briefly hold his own against him when his vessel was deteriorating and even managed to force Lucifer to escape from him when Lucifer's grace was considerably reduced, although the fight left Castiel injured enough to pass out. This skill remained with him even as he became human, as he managed to kill an angel in a broken bus without his powers, although the angel was caught off guard at the discovery that Castiel was now human. Due to his superior strength, Castiel could easily defeat and beat Dean to a pulp, doing so twice, once before even becoming a Seraph and an alternate version of him easily beat both him and Sam, although it must be noted that Dean was surprised and trying to reason with him and still managed to land blows. Over time, his fighting skills, as they continued to improve, even reached the level from when he briefly held against Dean when he was powered by the Mark, blocking two of Dean's blows and even able to counter and simultaneously get a hold on Dean before finally being decisively overpowered while holding back as he had no intention to harm him, to eventually becoming capable of surpassing Sam in skill, as shown when Castiel outfought not only Sam but also several other humans controlled by the psychic Chip. He was able to easily defeat two of them with a single punch, even doing so with a single hand while handling the other using his other hand, and easily break out when one of them got a hold on him, as well as blocking Sam's attacks with minor struggle and knocking him down and Sam only managed to defeat him when Castiel was off-guard, with it being made more notable by the fact that Castiel had no intentions to kill in the fight. He later on used hand-to-hand combat to easily smite several zombies unleashed by God before taking Jack's corpse and fleeing, and easily disarmed a Djinn police officer and beat him with a single punch. Castiel was even able to single-handedly escape from the Leviathans that held him captive and only sustain minor injuries in process.

Keep in mind, this is one ability. It seems to list nearly every single time Castiel has ever displayed this ability, as opposed to just mentioning the more notable examples for the sake of informing the reader that Castiel is a good hand-to-hand combatant. It's completely bloated, borderline unreadable, and is partly why the characters' articles had to be split into multiple subpages.

Here's another example, which I fixed earlier today. This is from the Omnipotence article, and is just about Jack.

Jack - As the Nephilim child of Lucifer; the second born archangel, Jack possesses unimaginable power. According to Sam Winchester, his powers will surpass those of even Lucifer. Initially, Jack, as a newborn Nephilim, did not have much understanding of his powers and therefore could not control or even use them without assistance from someone else. He was able to open a gate to an almost inaccessible section of Hell and nearly released the Shedim, telepathically awakened an angel sleeping in the Empty unintentionally, which was impossible according to The Shadow controlling the Empty who was surprised and confused to see an awakened being, and use his powers to blast away a shapeshifter. He also gained control of his powers to destroy Alternate Zachariah and his angels. He later destroyed an entire army of angels in the Apocalypse World, led by Balthazar, not only proof of how much power he possesses but that he now has control and use over most of his power. Later on, he was easily able to inflict painful damage to Michael. However, Lucifer stole Jack's Grace, rendering him powerless. Castiel confirmed that Jack's powers are not truly gone and would return to him in time. However, It has been stated that his grace may take a long time, between a month and a century to recharge and his human heritage is slowing it down. Additionally, none of Jack's power has been confirmed to have returned to him as he has not yet shown any of his former powers. In Ouroboros, Jack kills and consumes Alternate Michael's grace, returning him back to full power. In Jack in the Box, Jack displayed the power of word by simply speaking he made worms appear in a mans body and eat him also he turned Harrison Tate into a block of salt, teleporting 15 humans to heaven with ease, converting human souls into angels and easily broke out of the Ma'lak Box like it was nothing. In Moriah, he was able to rid the entire world of their ability to lie by commanding it. Jack's power, as it continued to grow, even worried his grandfather God who saw him as a threat, with God even admitting to be scared of what he could do and Billie even confirming that if Jack unlocks his full potential, by eating the hearts of angels, he will be able to kill God. However, in his current level, Jack is still no match for God's power, as he was easily smote by God with just a snap of his fingers and after his resurrection, even though Jack's powers had increased, he still had to suppress his powers to hide from God.

This actually contains mistakes that went under the radar because the text is simply unreadable, and, again, reads more as a synopsis than as "proof" of Jack's nigh-omnipotence. This single portion of the article was bigger than the other sections, which is absurd.

Now Rowena's personality section.

Rowena is an intelligent, cunning and extremely manipulative individual who takes great pride in her deceit and devious nature, describing it to her equally manipulative son as "who [they] are". Rowena often fluctuates between her mannerisms, sometimes presenting herself as calm and courteous and then suddenly vicious and violent when revealing her true intentions. She is exceptionally ruthless towards her enemies, whether they are people she loathes or disapproves of or someone who has simply annoyed her. She gruesomely kills the demon Raul after denouncing him as nothing more than "filth" and openly suggests to Crowley that he savagely rip a crossroads demon apart and brutally display his carcass for asking for recognition for his work, justifying this as a tyrannical threat not to waste the king's time.

Rowena has also demonstrated that she has no concern for innocent lives, as she frequently uses spells that result in their death by boiling their brains and impaling hotel employees to ceilings. She even points out to Dean that using the innocent against heroes like him will play out to her advantage. Furthermore, Rowena is dangerously wrathful, as she takes great pleasure in torturing Olivette for wronging her in the past and threatens to burn everything that Crowley cares for when he throws her out.

Rowena is highly ambitious and believes strongly in ruthlessly fighting and striving to gain power for the sake of greatness. She is very carefree and displays disregard and resentment for authority, openly and deliberately defying both Hell and the Grand Coven without fear of the consequences, preferring to use her magic whenever and however she wished. Olivette stated that while talented and skilled, she has always been reckless and egocentric.

Rowena often feigns a warm and sweet disposition towards others in order to manipulate them and gain their trust. Rowena claims to be extremely proud of her son, Crowley, and regrets abandoning him as a child. She states that she left him both for his safety and to further her career in witchcraft which she deemed "no environment to raise a child". However, it is highly implied she never cared for her son as a child, apparently trying to sell him for pigs on one occasion and abandoning him so she could live out her own selfish desires.

While she claims to love Crowley and regularly reminds him that they are family, it is later revealed that she is merely playing on his emotions, using it to manipulate and gain control over him so she can use his position as the King of Hell to her advantage and to further her own goals. Once Crowley realizes this with Dean's assistance and throws her out of his domain, she becomes disowning and berating and shows her hatred for him and her desire to destroy everything around him.

Although genuinely powerful and talented, Rowena's ego causes her to often overestimate her capabilities, both magical and manipulatory. Many of her failures are caused by her underestimating her opponents.

Like her son, Rowena is quick witted and sarcastic. However, unlike Crowley who believes in integrity, Rowena has no sense of loyalty. This is shown when she abandons a demon in Crowley's dungeon after the demon lied for her and helped her gain her freedom.

Rowena has shown that she is indeed capable of genuine love and affection, which she shows for Oskar, though she was willing to sacrifice him for her own freedom. Rowena later confesses that the reason she hates her own son is because if she did not she believes she would truly love him, but since love is a weakness, she vows to never feel helpless or weak again, like she did when Crowley's father impregnated her and then abandoned her. However, Rowena displays great admiration and affection for Lucifer but justifies it with the explanation that he is not a man but is what she views as "perfection". This admiration shatters after Lucifer makes an attempt on her life.

Crowley has described his mother as the type who would latch on to anyone with power and influence, including Lucifer, Amara, and God. Rowena has gone to great lengths to earn trust, despite never truly becoming loyal. Ultimately, Rowena values her own safety and survival above all else.

In Season 12, Rowena's personality shifts slightly. She becomes desperate for a normal life, having grown tired of the supernatural world and goes as far as to seek out romance, something she hasn't done for centuries. Unfortunately, her dreams are put on hold due to Crowley and Lucifer both seeking her out. Her poor choice in men also lead to misery. However, Rowena continues to act as a go-to ally for Sam and Dean whenever they need help. She reveals to Dean that her lust for power, which had compelled her to do horrible things throughout her life, no longer appeases her anymore after she witnessed the two most powerful beings in the Universe - God and The Darkness - still troubled by sibling rivalry. It was the realization that power could not bring true happiness that has changed Rowena in the recent months, and may have softened her heart.

However, even though aspects of her personality shifted, she is one to hold a grudge. She did not protest to her grandson's decision and even aided him in returning to the past and sealing his own death as she wanted to get back at her son, Crowley, for forcing her to kill Oskar, the boy she truly loved like a son, in order to remove the Mark of Cain.

After her second death at Lucifer's hands, Rowena has a more fearful personality and is far less manipulative. Privately, Rowena admits to Sam that after seeing Lucifer's true face, she is terrified of her future, especially as she believes that Lucifer will eventually return. While she seeks to gain her full powers back to ease this fear, Sam suggests that it won't be enough. Despite their past history and triple-crossing them, Rowena intervenes to save the Winchesters' lives when she could have let them die and it wasn't to her benefit to save them.

After Crowley's death, Rowena appears to express genuine grief, showing that despite her words she did truly care for Crowley. Rowena states that Crowley is her only son and she'd rather have a living son that hates her than a dead hero.

As a result of her incredible powers, Rowena relies on magic for basically everything to the point that she either doesn't consider or simply dismisses non-magical solutions, often to her detriment. In Dark Dynasty, Rowena was extremely dismissive of Charlie Bradbury's attempt to use technology to decode Nadia's Codex and through it the Book of the Damned despite her own troubles to do the same using magic. It wasn't until she discovered that Charlie succeeded in The Prisoner that Rowena admitted she was wrong at all. Additionally, in The Bad Seed, Rowena offered a magical solution to track down Castiel instead of the technological one the Winchesters were using. She also lacked understanding of tracking someone through their cell phone's GPS. In Regarding Dean, despite having access to the arsenal in the Impala and the Winchesters witch-killing bullets, Rowena preferred to rely on magic when going to face the Loughlin Family despite knowing how powerful they were and despite the fact that using the Winchesters weapons could work to her advantage. As a result, Rowena was nearly killed before Dean rescued her. In Various & Sundry Villains, when faced with a magic-proof zombie, Rowena didn't know how to fight back without being able to use her magic to attack. Until Dean ordered Rowena to shoot the zombie in the head, she never seemed to consider that option or any other non-magical one besides searching kitchen drawers for anything useful. Even after using the gun to kill the zombie and being aware that it was loaded with witch-killing bullets, Rowena chose to resort to magic to kill Jamie Plum and Jennie Plum instead of just shooting them.

Following the full restoration of her powers, Rowena found a sense of clarity and a realization that her magic had caused her to take everything meaningful in her life, especially her family and son, for granted. This, along with the grief she was still feeling over the death of her son, reached a point where she intended to force the hand of Death herself in an attempt to resurrect her only child. As she went onto state it was her fault as to how he turned out. This showed that she really did love her son and missed him. When Billie finally granted Rowena an audience she blatantly refused Rowena's attempt at blackmail and called her bluff of threatening to kill Sam, noting that once upon a time she would have done so, but that she is that person no longer. Advice from Billie, as well as Sam and Dean, along with her finally acknowledging all of her faults and misdeeds, appear to have moved Rowena to seek redemption.

Rowena's change of heart goes so far that she appears to have developed a conscience and genuine affection for the Winchesters. After accidentally blasting Lucifer to Apocalypse World, Rowena initially tries to take her chance to flee but can't bring herself to do it when she knows that she is the only hope for the people she has come to care for. As a result, instead, Rowena selflessly begins searching for a solution to the problem. Rowena's selfless actions and tireless search for an answer end up saving the day as she is able to hold the rift open just long enough for the Winchesters return with the people of Apocalypse World. Afterwards, while she promises not to forget that the Winchesters owe her one, she says it with a smile, indicating that she doesn't mean it and is saying it out of habit or that she doesn't mean anything sinister by her words. She later comes to help when Sam calls after she thinks it's Dean that's deathly ill, apparently having no ulterior motive at the time than a genuine desire to help Dean. She later came to help the Winchesters on a gorgon hunt simply because they called and asked for her help, though she chastised them for automatically suspecting a witch and for keeping secrets from her, secrets that she pointed were similar to the ones she used to keep when she was the villain. Again, Rowena's help appeared to be selfless and given simply because she could.

While she initially felt resentment about helping Jack, who was the son of the being who killed her twice, she was swayed into helping him once hearing his genuine gratitude to her for saving him from Michael and giving the refugees a better chance at living. She was seen flattered by this praise and decided to help when seeing his deteriorating condition. Rowena is noticeably distressed when telling the Winchesters that all they can do is be there for Jack as he dies. After discovering Jack alive and well, Rowena becomes concerned about his state and the secrets surrounding it. After discovering the nature of the magic keeping Jack alive, Rowena warns Sam and admits to being genuinely concerned by what she is sensing within Jack. Despite this and Jack being Lucifer's son, Rowena maintains a friendly relationship with Jack who in turn saves Rowena from possession by Michael. Upon learning Jack is dead, Rowena appears saddened.

Despite not getting along with and bickering with and frustrating Main Universe Charlie Bradbury, Rowena got along on well with the Apocalypse World Charlie, sharing a drink with her after the Exodus from Apocalypse World. As mentioned by Bobby, they even went so far as to embark on a roadtrip together, something that Mary and Bobby joked was trouble.

Over time, Rowena has changed to the point that she greatly cares about others even if she doesn't show it. Michael noted this and used it against Rowena to force her to say "yes" by threatening to return in a different vessel and using it to kill everyone in the bunker, while promising to leave them be should Rowena consent. Rowena reluctantly complies with the deal in an effort to save those she cares about.

At the end of her life, Rowena decides to sacrifice herself to save the world by using her own body to send all of the souls and demons released from Hell back. However, she has Sam kill her, both because every version of her death demands it and because she knows there's nothing that would cause her to take her own life. Rowena's selfless act leaves both Sam and Dean devastated and Castiel similarly saddened and regretful, showing just how much she had changed and just how much she had come to be cared for by those who once considered her their enemy. Following her death, Sam continues to be bothered by her loss for quite some time. It's suggested by Dean and assumed by other witches that Rowena considered Sam her protégé and that she thus left her magical stash for Sam alone.

After dying for the last time, Rowena proved resourceful enough to take power as the new Queen of Hell despite only existing as a damned soul. Despite ruling Hell now, Rowena retains her old personality and fondness for her friends, urging Dean and Castiel to mend their broken relationship and using all of the regrets of her own life, particularly her mistakes with Crowley, as an example, not wanting them to end up with the regrets she did. Rowena reassures Sam that he did the right thing in killing her and is happy in her new role in the afterlife.

That's just a synopsis. It details nearly every instance of her on-screen time and loosely ties it to her personality by mentioning her thoughts and feelings.

Now Rowena's lede:

Rowena MacLeod was an extremely powerful natural witch, and the mother of Crowley, who was originally named Fergus Roderick MacLeod. She is also the grandmother of Gavin MacLeod. She is of Scottish descent. She was one of the main antagonists of Season 10. In Season 11 she continued her efforts to gain power, eventually Rowena leagued with Lucifer upon promises she would be his queen. After helping Lucifer free himself, Lucifer snapped her neck so he couldn't be trapped in the Cage by her again. However, she was able to resurrect herself with a spell she had prepared in advance. She was killed by Lucifer a second time and he burned her body to try and prevent another resurrection.

Despite this, Rowena was resurrected again, though it took her a very long time to heal from the damage Lucifer caused. Some time later, a witch hunt with the Winchesters allowed her to obtain a spell to restore her full power, which had been sealed a long time ago. Rowena later went on a killing spree of Reapers to coerce Death into resurrecting her son, as she felt guilty for having failed him. This led to both her demands being rejected as well as Dean informing her that her permanent end would be caused by Sam. Rowena then accepted her loss and sided with the Winchesters to save their mother and Jack. She took part in capturing Lucifer himself, bound him and was tasked with watching him, until he eventually broke free and tried to kill her, before she managed to repel him right through the rift. Initially wanting nothing more to do with the Winchesters now that Lucifer was free again, she realized that she was their only hope of making it back home, and prolonged the opening so that they could return.

She assists in healing Jack Kline when he is deprived of his grace. Eventually, she is confronted by an Archangel from another reality, where she, albeit reluctantly, becomes his vessel for him to use in his desire to destroy the world, with Michael threatening to kill those she cares about if she refuses. However, Jack exorcises Michael from Rowena's body, leaving her unharmed and recovering from possession.

After God opens Hell and unleashes all of the souls inside, Rowena chooses to sacrifice herself to send everything back. After removing her Resurrection Seal, Rowena is stabbed and mortally wounded at her own request by Sam. With her last act, Rowena draws all of the souls and demons into herself using a spell from the Book of the Damned and sacrifices herself to throw them back into Hell. Both Sam and Dean are left devastated by her death. After Rowena's death, due to her having seemingly cursed her apartment to kill anyone who entered it other than Sam and Dean, other witches assumed that she had left her possessions for Sam to inherit, which led to Sam taking possession of Rowena's magical stash.

After going to Hell, Rowena becomes the new Queen of Hell as a damned soul, taking up the position once held by her son.

A more condensed synopsis than the Personality section, but a synopsis nonetheless. Ledes in character articles are supposed to be short descriptions of the characters, not synopses.

These sections need to be cut down to size, fast. They're bloated, unreadable, and lack maintenance (due to being unreadable). This needs to be a concerted effort by all editors, not just a handful of them.

Orion (T-B-C) 13:03, February 2, 2020 (UTC)


  • Support - I support this, also I believe the weaknesses section should be simplyfied. Jack3869 (talk) 16:10, February 2, 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - Yeah, I support this.--Mgdodl (talk) 16:22, February 2, 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - Good point mate. I also made a point about this regarding the sections like title/alias being extremely messy and crowded like two years ago IIRC. I'd be personally helping if you LMK the pages that need a good old clean-up. SeraphLucifer (talk) 21:26, February 2, 2020 (UTC)SeraphLucifer
  • Support - Yeah, the main characters' page are waaaay to extensive even with subpages, and minor characters' pages are getting filled with common powers and weaknesses between their species but were never used by the individual characters themselves, see my last edit on the Maul page for example. Doctor49 (talk) 00:34, February 7, 2020
  • Support, conditional - it needs to be more precise, but don't forget that articles need to be able to cite instances of such powers or weakness. We can cut down extra fluff, but not to the point that we are missing information. FTWinchester (talk) 17:14, February 20, 2020 (UTC)


  • Neutral/Support - Kind of torn as sometimes everything is needed to be listed. But maybe it should be more summarized.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 18:08, February 7, 2020 (UTC)
  • Commment - Why would you ever need to list every single instance that a power was displayed to demonstrate that the character has that power? Orion (T-B-C) 08:14, February 11, 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment - Not every time a power is used. Just when a Power is introduced or when the character shows something very unusual with a power.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 19:10, February 11, 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment - Well, at the moment, every instance is being listed, which is what I want to remove and boil down to just the most memorable moments. Orion (T-B-C) 19:12, February 11, 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'll give this until February 20th and then close it. Zane T 69 (talk) 21:36, February 16, 2020 (UTC)
  • Closing Consensus: While the support isn't overwhelming, there is support. The pages can be shortened and better summarized. Zane T 69 (talk) 17:51, February 20, 2020 (UTC)
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