Talk:Cain

Killing touch?
So, Cain killed the Knights with the First Blade, but it seemed like he killed that huge group of average demons as well. (In fact, I can't rewatch right now to check, but I seem to remember him even killing a Knight or two just by touch.) He didn't have the First Blade with him, but it emitted the exact same light. Was he killing these demons or just exorcising them? And if he was killing them, was his power somehow connected to his mark and/or the First Blade (because of the light)?--NaiflidG (talk) 03:32, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. I had my head turned to the TV half the time I was editing, so yeah. It's much closer to killing touch. However, I don't recall seeing him killing Knights of Hell on-screen. He's only used the touch on regular demons. Abaddon was the only one shown in the flashback, right? The demon soldier said "we must protect the Knight" or something like that. FTWinchester (talk) 03:41, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Tactile exorcisms, as it's been shown, have never been accompanied by any visualizations. I thought he was killing them with just a touch, although if someone can properly appropriate another possible explanation, I'll open myself up, given that other explanations are plausible. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:40 PM, January 21st 2014

"The deadliest demon to walk the face of the earth"
At least, that's how Crowley described him. Does that mean that Cain (rather than Lilith or Azazel) is the most powerful demon? It's possible that Crowley was referring to Cain's role as the leader of the Knights of Hell (and the destruction they wrought on Earth), or simply deceiving Dean as part of his act, but this is the closest we've ever come to a clear-cut, in-show statement on the matter. It'd make sense, what with his uniqueness of having the Mark of Cain and all.--NaiflidG (talk) 03:38, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Technically speaking, Lilith, Azazel, Samhain were already existing at that time, and if Crowley does mean all demons hoped he was truly gone, that meant it included even those three. Of course, there is always the fact that not all character claims are valid. Statements like those probably get thrown around with the heavyweight demons. This is just my opinion, of course. FTWinchester (talk) 03:45, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

This is a time when dialogue shouldn't be taken at face value. Crowley couldn't possibly make such a description depending on who you think he is. ;) Cain was enormously dangerous, but not the deadliest demon to exist. Lilith holds that title. I could yatter on about a scale, but for this, I'll leave it out. :P -- ImperiexSeed, 11:36 PM, January 21st 2014

After thinking it over, I agree with you guys that Crowley's statement shouldn't be taken as fact. I'm pretty sure now that he was just laying it on thick to scam Dean (and Cain); remember that part where he was pretending that his hands were shaking when he was holding his teacup, but Dean's flashback showed him smirking to himself? I don't think he was as scared of Cain as he acted he was.--NaiflidG (talk) 20:31, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Every high-tier demon to appear has, at their first appearance, instantly outclassed Crowley. Crowley would hold an immense fear of Cain, but not as much towards Lilith, the real deadliest demon to walk the face of the Earth. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:08 PM, January 22nd 2014

Can i just ask, where Cain's eyes shown? were they black? I was hoping for white, but still, ImperiexSeed, you do enjoy throwing around unproven facts don't you? there is no proof to suggest that Lilith was the most powerful demon just because she was the first, as the mythology is opening more, it seems the first batch were created roughly at the same time, Cain included in that Batch with Lilith, in a litter of pups, the first born is not necessarily going to be pick of the litter, Lilith was just the first born, there is high probabilty that lilith never intended her to be the strongest or the ruling demon in his absence, more like she was made simply to be a seal and nothing more, like she just the prototype, first attempt gone sour or something, it seems that possibly Azazel was crafted at roughly the same time, created to be The King, ruling demon, no point lilith ruling when at some point she needs to die, but demons respect her and see her as the progenitor demon, but she seemed to know about the demon killing knife and showed fear of it, as if knowing it could kill her, alastair on the other hand did not seem familiar but was immune to it's killing power all togeather.

Fact is, Lilith may just have been, prototype/original/final seal, Azazel as Ruling Demon, Alastair as head torturer, likely an original deal making demon, Cain was Knight Founder, leader and champion demon, the 'Big gun', Samhain was a chaos summoning demon, Asteroth for Witchcraft and so on, but all of that is theory, just as Lilith being the deadliest demon is, Crowley is not that old, maybe 400 years? if age equals power and he was king unchallenged then does that mean no demons were left older than him???

Princepurple (talk) 11:35, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

The one problem I have with Cain's story, is if he became a demon right after killing Abel, how is he credited of being the deadliest demon to walk on earth and bringing so much chaos and destruction when the human population around the time he became a demon was only, I don't know, his own family? If he started killing right then and there humanity would not have survived. FTWinchester (talk) 13:34, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Now that supernatural has once again made christian mythology more twisty, and made Cain a demon... have they specified that Adam and the 'other' eve were his parents? it could well be that Adam, eve, cain and abel were not infact the first, as dieties seem to be older than that as do the alphas, and im sure the Bible contradicts Adam and Eve being the first, something along the lines of 'banished from the garden to live with the 'other' people' or something, il find the actual verse, but there is plenty in the show to now suggest that anything in the bible is credible in the show.

If Cain was 'one of' the first demons, though Lilith was the first, created therefore before Cain even killed abel, then would that not make Lilith Cain's sister?? how many other humans were around before cain and abel to corrupt? unless the show decides that adam and eve are actually Lilith and Azazel, or Lilith and Alastair or something, I'm pretty confused.

Princepurple (talk) 14:24, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't. That is bafflingly incorrect. You're the one throwing out "ifs and maybes." Such a statement is founded as a fact to be Lilith. Kripke said himself that she is the strongest. It is impossible for one to carve out such a reputation with only four individuals. I think he got that reputation thousands of years after becoming a demon. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:35 AM, January 23rd 2014

So while were on topic would you care to express any facts on Liliths origin if Cain and abel were the children of Adam and eve, the first people?

How can Lilith be the first without being offspring of the first humans?

or if i have my christian mythology mistaken (i find greek, nordic and roman more interesting) did Cain kill abel outside of the garden after they all got banished??

Princepurple (talk) 15:18, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

And Kripke has not been head writer since season 5, unless he gives an upto date clarification, it could be considered a retcon, Cain's smiting could apparently kill any demon apart from knights, lilith is not a knight and also seemed pretty petrified of the demon killing knife.

Even if she outpowers cain somehow i doubt it would be by much, perhaps like how much Micheal outpowers Lucifer, he is stronger, but Lucifer can still give him a fight, I think if the knights, cain included, turned on Lilith, she would be rather petrified, sure, she is the most powerful, but that does not mean she take defeat other powerful demons when combined, one on one, perhaps she is strongest, i don't know.

Princepurple (talk) 15:25, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

No facts about Lilith's human life or origin have been revealed, that I can tell. It's almost impossible for Lilith to have been a human around the time she was alluded to by Ruby. Lilith couldn't gag them with their own vessels all at once or destroy them simultaneously, but she is considerably stronger, I'd say, than any demon. Taking on Knights would require her to actually pay attention to slaughter them. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:36 AM, January 23rd 2014


 * This is the third time someone overwrote on my reply. Please retain. I'm trying to answer your queries on Lilith.


 * No, that would make Lilith, nothing to Cain. Maybe a stepmom through Adam (though this is based on biblical lore and other mythos from other versions including Lilith), but that's it. Regardless even though the show borrows from both Creationism and evolution, both had to start somewhere, and they appeared to have chosen the biblical version where there was Adam, Lilith (first wife of Adam), Eve, Cain, Abel, and the third brother Seth. Cain could not have gathered that title until later, as Imperiex has said. I don't know. In forseight, the episode seems like a good one, but in hindsight, it just muddled the lore even more. The idea that they were banished to live with other people actually refers to the Nephilim (I might be mistaken), but the show has different ideas on that as well--they retained the half-angel, half-human, but there was only one in the show. As for the Alphas, the A-vamp said something that he was the thing humans were afraid of in the dark as they huddled around the fire, so humans clearly pre-dated monsters, and there's no problem with that issue. FTWinchester (talk) 15:41, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I didn't mean to overwrite your reply, it's just I was prodded by a user for making stuff up and I set him straight. Sorry for your sake, man, but it makes no sense so much that I'm wordless on the matter of Lilith and once being human. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:50 AM, January 2rd 2014


 * No worries. Lilith is the first wife of Adam in some versions of the bible, and even in some jewish texts. So in Supernatural she was probably corrupted by Lucifer before Eve was created from Adam. Thus explaining how she was older than Cain. FTWinchester (talk) 15:53, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Anything can be twisted the right way to seen sensible, and man, Lilith being once human is irritatingly insensible. If true, why would God form Eve with Adam's rib when he could've just made her appear, like you're saying he could've done with Lilith. The rib thing, at least as it's portrayed biblically, was suppose to symbolize a unity in love and having God create Lilith out of thin air demeans this, almost implicating an unnecessary action of God. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:05 AM, January 23rd 2014


 * Hey, I didn't write the Bible, man. So I don't know. I'm just stating facts that some versions of the bible and also in jewish texts, Lilith was indeed the first wife. She was punished because she did not want to be subservient to Adam. Thus she was expelled from paradise and she mated with the nephilim/demons/fallen angels (they all differ) to become the mother of all demons. Since Supernatural mythos dictates all demons were twisted human souls, then the show decided to make it so that instead of God punishing Lilith, Lucifer corrupted her instead. And then of course, to ensure that Adam still had a spouse, God created Eve. FTWinchester (talk) 16:12, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Lilith has never shown anything to imply she is on level with what cain's feats are, she was rather unremarkable, sure, she has the white light, but so did Samhain, if they teamed up, I don't think concentrating would cut it, knights were specifically crafted to be Super strong, sure cain's smiting is exclusive but whether or not he was immune to angel smiting or not, or whether Alastair was immune to the first blade, not being a knight, but still white eyed and likely as Old as her, did Cain and Abel have an uncle Alastair in the tales???


 * And then there is Azazel aswel, obviously as old as the white eyes, although in the Biblwe, he was an angel, there is no credibility to say Lilith could overpower any knight, in society, kings or queens ruled but if thier elite warriors/knights turned on them, they would be dead, made to rule and made to be strong are different, Lucifer may have created Cain with more power, and I imagine, with the first blade, which is very powerful and old, likely could have killed Lilith, Lilith was never shown to be more powerful than any demon to the point where she could effortlessly destroy them, sure she was more resistent to Sam's powers than Alastair, but no saying how they would affect a knight or Azazel by comparrsion, when Kripke stated Lilith was strongest, the storyline and mythology was far less developed, and I no longer think his comments are viable since that was many years ago.


 * You seem awfully conident on how structured the power levels must be and seem to cling to them because they have never been proven otherwise, Like Alastair, Lilith or Azazel, or Cain being able to face Seraph's, it's now known that the Archangels did not kill the knights at all, although I could bet, if Castiel, seraph or not faced Cain, he would get hurt, Lilith is the first demon, does not mean she can take on all other demons easily, actually I think if she tried taking on Alastair with Azazel, Cain and just one other knight or so, she would be overpowered.


 * I still think Abaddon can take on a seraph alone and easily live to tell the tale, easier than crowley did when he effortlessly escaped Naomi's wrath.
 * I was correct that Abaddon would come back after her being buried, I was doubted, but she returned, I knew as soon as the knights came in, a super powerful demon would be introduced even stronger than Abaddon, I was dounted, but it happened, back in season 8, i knew as soon as metatron appeared, he would end up as an antagonist, and i knew if crowley would meet a normal angel face to face, he would be overpowered, doubted, but it happened.


 * Usually in this show, when I think things will turn out a certain way, it does, but on Wiki's, this one included, I get doubted, until it happens, then they doubt the next thing, so here is a big prediction, if Castiel pisses of Cain, and cain returns to take hell, as he will, the Seraph will be put on his arse, in a similar way that Alastair did to his non seraph form, and likely finish the angel excorcism that Alastair attempted twice, also, around season 10, Samhain will rise once again, everything I have guessed since the show started has come to pass, with the exception of cains eyes not being white.
 * Princepurple (talk) 16:35, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * the storyline and mythology was far less developed, and I no longer think his comments are viable since that was many years ago.


 * This answers pretty much all the questions. Like I said, in games, these happens as well. Sorry to use PokeMon as the example, but it is good, if not the perfect example. Power creep happens to games when developers try to increase interest by introducing more powerful characters/abilities/weapons. In PokeMon's case, well, stronger PokeMon (Generation 5 if you want to research). What happens is the newer ones overshadow those that have been introduced earlier. What happens is previously established "strong" characters become relatively weak.


 * Buffy (this is the one show that is also good to use as an example since it's pretty similar) also underwent this. Her Big Bads were, in this progression, i) an ancient vampire king/ruler, ii) three of four of the ancient vampire king's best warriors, iii) an Old One (a pure demon, stronger than all vampires), iv) a cybernetic demon (human-demon-robot hydbrid), v) a Hell goddess, vi) the most powerful sorceress (at the very least in the western hemisphere), and finally vii) the First Evil, an eternal, immortal being that represents all forms of sin, transcending all beings and dimensions. Notice how all became stronger than the other? However, unlike Supernatural, all of them were quite different from each other (with the exception between i and ii), and this allowed that series to become grander and more epic in scale without contradicting its established lore. Basically, it's good writing and foresight.


 * At this point, Lilith obviously appears lackluster compared to Cain, or even Abaddon. But looking back, so do most other high-tier demons. It's because they did not bother to at least explicitly delineate whether the previous revelations still hold true (i.e., Lilith, Alastair, Azazel being the most powerful demons), or whether they are now being retconned.


 * Just one more thing, your argument on Kings and Queens being killed by their elite warriors holds true in real life. But in this universe, most, if not all, species operate on age equating to power. If you are older, you usually have the advantage. I've pointed this out several times before: Archangels had them over regular angels, Michael had it over other archangels, Eve had it over angels, Leviathan had it over angels, Alphas had it over the rest of their kind, Death has it over his brothers. But again, all of those are now seriously challenged because of the evolution of lore, which carelessly and blatantly ignores previously established mythos. And this is inevitable, if the writers aren't careful enough. FTWinchester (talk) 16:54, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * If I may also add, even Abaddon appeared to be weaker than when she first appeared. What stopped her from preventing Crowley to teleport? What stopped her from using her mind-reading abilities to weed out the Winchesters early into the season? Why did she need to use an angel blade to kill Cecily? What happened to her spellcasting abilities? The exorcism ritual unfazed her, and the knife failed to kill her yet she fled from one severely weakened  regular angel? FTWinchester (talk) 17:01, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I might come back and watch Season 10 (if it reached that season) just to see if your prediction is right. Could you also predict that the show would be better and clearer in its new lore? Much more exciting and much more cohesive? (Do any of you guys still even remember that this arc is mainly because of the tablets?) That would really help this sinking ship. FTWinchester (talk) 17:09, January 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Though unknowable because of how the writers did it (which is making the fans connect all the dots every frickin' time), I'm doubtful the scale could look any different than this: Lilith > Azazel > Cain > Alastair, etc. And, yes, I could be wrong here. But we're all in the same rickety boat on this one. But again, unknowable till the writers paten down any form of guesswork by simply and clearly revealing things that otherwise we, fans, build on the very little given evidence. There is no demon that can exist that would be stronger than a seraph. Abaddon was all riled up by the presence of a weakened average angel, undoubtedly meaning she would as a ant's antenna against seraphs. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:29 PM, January 23rd 2014


 * Well, unlike the Archangels and monsters, Lucifer did not really create the demons as such, i know eve kinda infected humans, but lucifer more directly twists the souls, demons are pretty much, warped ghosts, but still essentially human, i think if lucifer made lilith, if he willed it, he could purposely make a demn more powerful than Lilith, actually, i think he could (if loose) form a brand new demon and make it above any other, that's why I think he made Cain, as the ultimate weapon.


 * There is no reason to suggest why Cain cannot fight a seraph, even if a seraph can overpower a knight, how do they kill? don't say, rip the head off and throw it into space or whatever, no Seraph has ever been shown to be capeable of that, and even so, im sure the knight could simply re-materialize, lucifer obviously wanted certain demons around during the apocalypse as Servants, im sure if Lucifer is capeable of making demons that can over power normal angels, which he did, probably to fight them, im sure he made at least one to fight seraphs, i mean i doubt he could make an archangel level demon, since God made archangels, but im sure the Archangel could easily make a demon capeable of fighting a seraph, i think in terms of power its Angel>>>>seraph>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+Archangel.


 * But even so, a seraph can be killed with an angel blade, and dean seemed to have no problem killing a seraph when he caught him off guard, you would think the seraphs awareness and reaction time would be fast enough to counter any human, but no, he killed him, but Cain was not just resistant to the demon killing knife like Alastair and Abaddon, but completely unaffected, it was a normal blade next to him, so im willing to accept that an archangel blade could kill a normal knight, but not Cain, I think he is invincible apart from maybe The Colt, first blade and deaths Sythe, so How would a seraph kill Cain without the first blade? to kill a seraph, all cain has to do is trap one in a ring of holy fire, get a ton of angel killing blades, and throw them at the trapped seraph, and he is far more clever than Crowley, im sure he could excorsive hundreds of seraphs and find ways to kill them before they even have a chance.
 * Princepurple (talk) 00:51, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Plus if Lucifer can have a Cambion created, half regular demon and human which can take out most of heavens host effortlessly, how do we know he has not worked such power into cain?? sure Jesse was only that powerful during the apocalypse, and during that time i believe the half demon could have wiped out every single seraph alone, so why not Cain? he's clearly one of the most powerful demons, Lucifer wanted abel as his 'pet' but got cain instead and assuming that means his guard dog, pitbull or whatever, if a half demon can kill the host of heaven, something of lucifers design, whats to say lucifer couldn't have also crafted a seraph hunting demon???
 * Princepurple (talk) 00:55, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be fair, while Cain has demonstrated immense power, that doesn't necessarily make him the strongest demon in creation. He's described as the "deadliest demon" not the strongest or most powerful so it is quite possible he's feared for his personality as well as his power. Lilith or Azazel could be as strong or stronger than Cain but he's just racked up the highest body count and is the most blood thirsty of them. He is after all the father of murder, which implies he started the concept of it. Also there's nothing to imply Cain is one of the first humans to exist, That's entirely biblical and the show is not. As Cas says "the bible gets more wrong than right". Plus it's possible Cain was just more flashy than Lilith or Azazel, and that being said both Azazel and Lilith showed great skill with the few powers they showed. Demons in general show more powers than leviathan, yet leviathan can easily slaughter them. Neither was stabbed with the knife so they may both not be hurt at all by it either. As for Lilith being scared of it, it's quite possible she'd never encountered one before. Unlike Cain who had been on earth pretty much since he became a demon, Lilith was imprisoned neck deep for god knows how many centuries. So she may just not wanted to take any risks as if she died before the seals were broken there'd be no apocalypse. So power scale hasn't been destroyed really and it may still hold that the highest rank are the strongest. Further more, Abaddon has never been exceptional power wise but because she's immortal and more bloodthirsty than most demons, she seems to be more revered  than most demons. I recon knights are feared mainly for their difficulty to kill and their more violent methods and techniques. And it's quite clear Abaddon is no match for Cain as she runs away. She seems to be on par with Crowley. Also Crowley wanted to stay so that Dean could fight the demon army and cain would give him the mark, so he may have been over exaggerating to make Dean more interested and the black eyed demons outside don't even hesitate to attack his house so his reputation may not be quite as good as Crowley was selling it (even though they were slaughtered).


 * Anon, if a human is being credited with the title the 'Father of Murder', he would have to pretty much be one of the earliest humans. You cannot be a 'father' of something that has never been conceived/seen/experienced before. Unless you claim to say that there were several humans before him that did not commit any form of murder to another human, or that Lucifer would wait for several generations after Lilith before he would attempt to influence humanity again and that the fallen archangel has been given a free reign that long by God and Michael. So, while we both cannot say which parts of the Bible hold true for the series at this point, there is more reason to believe that Cain and Abel being part of the first family is true. You have however, a good point that Cain might have been more bloodthirsty but necessarily stronger, and that demons have more capabilities as opposed to leviathans but the latter could destroy the former easily, however if a demon of the same calibre as Lilith was at least affected by the knife while Cain was completely unaffected, wouldn't you have doubts on who is really stronger? And Cain's demonic smiting is certainly something powerful under his belt. If Azazel fell to the colt but Cain and Abaddon could theoretically (as claimed) only fall to the First Blade, what does that tell us? Also, the demons weren't afraid to storm Cain's home because they only wanted Dean and Crowley. The trucker demon made that clear before they even engaged the house, as a clear sign that they don't want anything to do with Cain. After all, look at what happened to them all when they fought Cain himself. FTWinchester (talk) 14:43, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * FTWinchester, did you write all of that reply or did someone forget to put the sig??
 * Anyway thanks for not disregarding my theories like other members do and actually replying civilly with logic and possible answers, it's nice, but I must wonder, when Cain decided to destroy the knights, where was Azazel? i'm sure he was active at that time and likely the King of hell, why did he, and Alastair for that matter, just let Cain kill them all and retire?? you would think they would go after him on charges of being a traitor or at least react to a very important order of warriors being destroyed, but Cain diddn't even mention those 2, obviously Lilith could do nothing along with samhain, asteroth or whoever.


 * Another point of mention is how can you compare Crowley to Abaddon? she is far older and and Dean mentioned, to that Hunter with the funny leg, something like 'king of hell being one thing, a knight of hell being a whole lot worse' or something like that, implying that Abaddon is not just hard to kill, but all togeather more dangerous, otherwise, why would dean team up with crowley to kill her?? he is not immortal, the demon killing knife can likely kill him, aswell as angel blades, smiting, the colt and such, dean could just kill him and deal with abaddon alone, she seemed highly confident that in a one on one battle of strength that she could kill him easily, crowley choosing to not battle using the stupid 'campaign' thing, which apparently has not gone his way so far, which is why he wants the blade, he does want to fight, but knows without that blade, he stands no chance.


 * Abaddon has shown the power read memories and exorcise demons effortlessly, something crowley has not shown, and the demons really seem to fear her, crowley is kind of a joke by comparrison, when she fled from gadreel, she was not anticipating it and did not know whether it was a cherub, angel, seraph, archangel, she likely escaped simply because she had no idea angels had fallen, or if she did, she simply diddn't wanna risk anything, apparently the angels or seraphs or even archangel, although may overpower and possibly excorsise her, can't kill her unless they have the first blade, where as she just needs an angel blade.


 * Next, I truly think crowley feared Cain, he extended the fear to manipulate dean but still, Crowley can teleport unlike most demons, but cain, without even being up close could prevent him leaving, I doubt crowley faked that, as later cain silenced him easily, showing he can effortlessly overpower crowley, i doubt crowley, king or not would last any longer against cain, regardless off his rank, cain referred to crowley as 'the king' as if it was simply a title, if he wanted the position, crowley ain't stopping him, like cain is simply above him.


 * but as ive said, if lucifer can have a cambion created which can take on the entire host of heaven, making him stronger than lilith who came before him, then im sure he can create a fresh demon more powerful than lilith at will, i still think cain is Lucifer's 'pet' he really wanted him or his brother as if he had a big role for him, it wasn't siimply a 'screw you dad im gonna reck your human' like he did with lilith, Cain seemed to be a real desire to be his 'pet', imagine, what would the devils 'pet' be capeable of??


 * but all in all, 3 questions


 * 1- where was azazel and alastair during cain's purging of the knights
 * 2- do you think that cain, being the 'grand knight' like 'grand torturer' has white eyes?
 * 3- can any other weapon kill a knight other than the first blade???


 * Princepurple (talk) 17:11, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, (I hope you don't mind me joining in) at this point Azazel was at this still searching for Lucifer. From the way Cain discribes it, it appers he massacared the knights of hell very quickly, perhaps in a few days or less. So presumably it all happed so quickly, that by the time Azazel learned what was gpoing on, they were all dead except Abaddon. Then Cain just vanished, Crowely said they thought he was Dead, so its possible they all assumed he just commited suicide, he didn't really have much left to live for after all. As for Alastair, he was in hell torturing souls, it took direct orders to get him to leave hell (or the sheer Sadism of ww2) so even if he did know, I doubt he would have bothered, he probably didn't really care, all he cared about was hurting people.


 * Its entirely possible, the fact we didn't see his eyes, leads me to suspect that its being saved for later on. Personally though I would prefer it if he had red eyes, not crossroads demon bright red you understand. Dark brownish red, like dried blood, sort of a individual thing to show his satus as the father of murder.


 * I think the Colt could, its stated only five beings were immune, and I doubt the Knights were on Archangel level durability. Death's scythe could, as it could pottentially kill Death himself. Angel swords might, but I'm guessing Crowley and Dean don't want to risk it not working and finding themselves in close contact with Abaddon. I don't know any else could though. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:59, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * (This reply was intended only for Pricepurple, because I'm leaving and I have no time to read General's post, which was posted a few seconds before I finished typing mine--let me get back to you on that some other time)


 * An anon(ymous) posted that block of text above mine. You're welcome. That's how discussions are supposed to go anyway, with logic. Anyway, this is exactly why on closer inspection, the episode kind of flusters. Writers of this season just pump out new ideas without at least referencing previously established lore. It's not even just Azazel or Alastiar--we don't exactly know when Lilith was imprisoned, and so does Samhain. We know the Celts had the opportunity to worship him, so he should have been still active at some point after Cain was created. Regardless, the hierarchy of hell should have had a say. What I would say next is mostly theory, but it would appear the writers want us to think the Knights were Cain's personal army. What he said about the Knights goes. Still, that's kind of weak. Even someone as powerful as Cain should have to answer to other hiegh-tier demons. Unless, of course, the writers actually planned to do away with the previous lore on the established hierarchy (this is really getting annoying--a lot of things stem from this problem).


 * We had a little misunderstanding here. When I claimed that Kings and Queens of the supernatural world, I meant the actual original kings and queens like Lilith. Not Crowley. He only came to power once everybody else stronger and older was off the chessboard. So I wasn't claiming that Crowley was more powerful than Abaddon. I know that the 'King of Hell' was never a real position until Crowley styled himself with it, and though it may come with perks, it was still mainly an organizational rank, and not a real rank of strength.


 * Little thing: Good point on Abaddon fleeing Gadreel because she had no idea what type of angel she might face, but she did know that angels have fallen because she gave a speech saying "all the angels with their clipped wings will bow to me".


 * On Cain vs. Lilith vis-a-vis the cambion, I could only agree but only because of how the show described and featured Cain. At this point, even someone well-versed with all point of arguments and cues, references detailing the past lore could not defend the previous A-listers.


 * So to answer your questions, 1 - I have no idea, 2 - I would have, but given Abaddon's eyes, I have no idea as well, and 3 - I'm thinking a Leviathan should be able to consume a Knight, and an Archangel should have no need of the First Blade at all. FTWinchester (talk) 19:02, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay General and FTWinchester, your comments have satisfied my curiosities, thanks for not getting overly annoyed with my comments, i do tend to look at these things way to closely, but theorising is fun for, for once on here i feel like we had a decent, open minded discussion, merit from all sides so i'm letting this perticular subject rest.


 * But just so you guys know in future, if i feel things need to be challenged, please don't take me as arrogant or illogical, im just looking for good discussion, nobody in RL talks about the show this deep, my partner loves the show, but is not as big on the theory as me, thanks.
 * Princepurple (talk) 19:15, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Episode/Season references
I have put so much effort to create a page using exact dates (as much as possible) for a better in-universe perspective, and someone goes on and uses season and episode markers again. Really? If you are being told a story, are you told that, "okay, this is now season x, episode y, and this is what happened in episode z". Don't you rely on dates, events and temporal descriptions such as currently, yesterday, last year? FTWinchester (talk) 13:47, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Relation to the Winchesters
Wasn't it specifically mentioned in The Song Remains the Same that Cain and Abel are the brothers' ancestors, which is why they were destined to be the vessels for Michael and Lucifer? They could have at least referred to this when Cain actually appeared, but it was seemingly forgotten. 94.215.23.200 22:18, January 26, 2014 (UTC)