Talk:Lilith

According to Wikipedia, there is a demon in Mesopotamian mythology named Lilith. It's spelled with one L, not two. So, I'm gonna change the name so it has just one L. It's also spelled with one L on the Wikipedia Supernatural page. Kyle Nin 15:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Powers and Abilities
Okay, so I have some issues with the following stuff under Powers and Abilities:

"Lilith was the oldest and most powerful demon. She out-ranked her fellow white-eyed demons Alastair and Samhain, as well as Azazel, in the hierarchy of Hell. Other demons either feared or revered her for her capabilities. However, when confronted by an archangel, she quickly fled." (My edit.) I know that Azazel vs. Lilith is a hot topic here (and, I assume, the rest of the fandom), but the Kripke statement that she out-ranks Azazel leads me to believe that she is stronger than him, she just didn't have as the opportunity to prove it, so I edited the article according to that interpretation of Word of Kripke. But if it doesn't sit right with you guys, just say the word and I'll edit it to something less flammatory.

"*Demonic Control - As the first of her kind, Lilith can exert a certain amount of control over lesser demons. For example she could take over a previously occupied host, as she was able to force Ruby out of her host and possess it herself, something no other demon has been shown to do." But we know that Lilith and Ruby were working together the whole time, so Lilith wouldn't have neededto force Ruby out of her vessel. Doesn't it make more sense to just assume that Ruby willingly gave up the body for Lilith to use, instead of assume that

"* It is also stated that she was able to flay Nancy, the secretary from the police station, using her telekinetic skills for forty-five minutes before killing her, thus showing great control and precision." Did Henriksen say that she used telekinesis for that or is that just people making stuff up? I don't remember hearing that from the show and I don't really want to look it up right now (I'm pretty much ready to drop dead of exhaustion, ready to hit the sack), so could someone else verify this?

"*Demonic Light -" Okay, so I know everybody assumes that it blows stuff up (which makes sense to me, because of the whole resemblance to an angelic attack) ... but she used it right away in the police station and Henriksen's ghost later said that she tortured everyone inside first for a length of time. Canonically, these things don't mesh. This was the only time this ability was used successfully on someone/something and it didn't even happen on-screen, so we don't actually know what it does. Should we debate what it does and put in our conclusion, or just note that it's ambiguous as to what it does, or...? (Personally, I suspect it might be time manipulation: she could've stretched out the time inside the station to torture people and her doing that and then destroying the building might account for why Sam says the explosion happened "right after we left". She and Samhain could've both been trying to just freeze Sam in place when they tried to use it on him. But that's a mite to speculately to add in.)

I may or may not be able to get back to you immediately (my college exams start next week, so I'm going crazy studying and keeping up with the work), but go ahead and discuss changes if you want, reach a consensus, and either I'll edit accordingly or one of you can. Well wishes, and thank you all in advance! 68.202.251.151 04:24, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

True Ruby could possibly have done this voluntarily but in order to fool the other demons Ruby would probably have to have been expelled and sent to hell, so for believability this may have actually happened. Henrikson doesn't specifically state Lilith used telekinesis. He says "The secretary was first, Nancy, the virgin. Lilith flayed nancy's skin off piece by piece. Made us watch. Nancy never stopped screaming." So though it's not stated she used her powers, it is some what implied as keeping someone alive for 45 mins while flaying them would be difficult plus for a demon it'd probably be easier to do so with telekinesis. And the fact she made multiple people watch implies she was somehow retraining and forcing numberous people at once. But it's up for debate. I guess the whole police station think could be that Lilith teleported her victims away as she destroyed the station and then went away and tortured them and killed them. Good points but I think it's debatable.

Rank
General, yes, she does outrank all other demons. What is uncertain (at least according to semantics, as some would point out) is her scale of power/ability against Azazel. Although, personally I believe that is no contest in favor of Lilith. FTWinchester (talk) 00:26, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying it needs to be worded differently, as it looks like your controdicting yourself. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:31, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Knight of Hell
Ok, Grandaddy Winchester, reffered to the Knights of Hell as the firstborn demons, handpicked by Lucifer...well since Lilith is the very first demon, and she was created by Lucifer, doesn't she fit the discription? Darksusanoo (talk) 13:50, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing when I first heard about it. But seeing as the Archangels were supposed to have killed all of them, with Abbadon being the last of her kind, Liliith may not be one of the Knights. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:34, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

There's a good chance nobody knew about Lilith. She'd been buried in Hell for tens of thousand of years. Buried so deep, even Azazel couldn't free her without a Devil's Gate. So I don't think that Archangels supposably killing all of them disqualifies Lilith. KevinTheDestoryer (talk) 21:47, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody knew about her? She was the reason lucifer was put in his cage, so I think everyone knew about her, especially the archangels.


 * Touche, to who ever posted the comment above me. Whether or not Lilith was an actual Knight is not that important, as she could easily have been a class of her own. It is true, though, that all the descriptions fit her first and foremost, among all other demons. FTWinchester (talk) 22:27, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I doubt she was one, as Lilith was a white eyed demon, while the Knights of Hell have black eyes. Plus considering they were denouced as "hitmen" it can be taken that they are literally like actual knights, elite soldiers, but not the ruling castel. Plus Lilith was a lot more powerful than than Abaddon. And from the way they were discribing it, theres a good chance that there were more demons created after that point, Lilith was the first demon, but that doesn't mean she was the only one Lucifer personally made, he could presumably have made more before he was chucked in the cage. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:20, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what the Knights of Hell are: the firstborn, made by Lucifer himself... and being described as hitmen is more of a job discription, rather than a race classification...too bad they didn't give Abbadon white eyes instead of black ones, that would have been an excelent tie-in in regards to demon classification. Darksusanoo (talk) 08:35, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the term used was 'handpicked' by Lucifer. Abaddon having black-eyes may simply be because she was favored by Lucifer somehow and was given additional powers. Perhaps the eye color suggests innate strength, but not the actual level of power. Take Crowley for example, he still has red eyes because that is how he started but he is far more powerful now. FTWinchester (talk) 14:56, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think Crowley's all that more powerful. He still isn't resistant to holy water and tries to avoid Ruby's knife whenever possible. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:48, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I meant relative to how he began as a demon. FTWinchester (talk) 18:19, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Same. I still don't think he got an increase in power since becoming King of Hell. I still think he only got that position by being the last most powerful demon left.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:35, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, he's mearly a mid level buracrat whose grabbed power, because the winchesters have killed all his superiors, although I have to wonder what happened to Samhain. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:00, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Simple. Samhain was exorcised.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes back to hell, and he's obviously stronger than Crowley, and Crowley took over hell... I think you can see where I'm going with this. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:22, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * In which you forgot that Samhain was a special demon, so when he was exorcised, he more than likely was sent back to where he originally was. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:56, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * The bottom of the pit, so he couldn't get out again, arh I'm with you General MGD 109 (talk) 20:24, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * :To me when Harry used the words "firstborn", "handpicked" and "Lucifer" in the same sentence kinda implies a lot that Luci was the one who personally made the Knights...he did make Lilith, he rebeled, he made the first demon army to fight against the Heavens when God commanded Michael to cast him down...it would explain why the arcangels would even bother with killing demons, since apparently, the normal angels can't...too bad we couldn't see Cas going up against Abbadon. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:50, February 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think he, Henry Winchester, at the mention of the Knights of Hell, to me, implicated Demons such as Lilith, Alastair, and Azazel. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:09 PM, March 5th 2013

LILITH > AZAZEL
Ok, i know that with the majority of demons strength and rank don't necessarily go together but when sam describes the knights of hell he states that they are "very pure, very strong" implying that the purer the demon the stronger the demon, hence the knights being so strong. So by that logic cant it be assumed that lilith is both stronger and of higher rank than Azazel because kripke stated she was of higher rank and if we assume purity = strength then lilith should be the strongest demon as she is the first demon and the purist.

Maybe, but its still amost entirely speculation, the expression "Very pure, very strong" could equaly be interpreded as two different points, its made clear that one links to the other. Also we have to ask the question what exactly pureity means? its entirely speculation to say it one way or the other. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:55, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Presumably purity refers to their age and how much of a say lucifer had in creating them, so again lilith would be purer as the first demon. And while they could be two seperate points, the context in which they're stated implies otherwise.

True, buts its still nearly pure speculation either way, so it can't be used as fact. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:14, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith power?
Just had a thought. Can anyone explain to me how lilith killed her host's grandmother in "no rest for the wicked"? cause the body has no blood on it and the body's neck isnt broken and the only thing notacble about it is it's covered in flies. So if she didnt use super strength or telekinesis how the hell did she kill the old lady. biokinesis? any thoughts?

you don't need biokinesis to kill without leaving blood or snapping a neck (also how do you know sher neck wasn't snapped?) simple strangulation woyuld do it. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:09, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

sorry i looked again theres blood on her nose and a puddle of it next to her but theres no blood on her actual body (torso, neck ect) its weird. cause her neck isnt twisted and is in perfect corolation with her shoulders. im not saying its biokinesis im just confused to how she did it.

Not sure, possibly boke her nose and fractured her skull, then knowing Lilith I'm sure she has hundreds of inventive any highly painful ways to kill. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:48, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Does it even matter? Strangulation (as General MGD 109 suggested), Biokinesis, or Hell, she could've blown apart the victim's mind Telepathically. I, personally, think she used Biokinesis to kill the woman, but that's my opinion. There are soo many options - should could've wrecked the woman's kidneys, causing an instant, excruciating death, she couldv'e ruptured the woman's brain. In any case,, unfortunately, she's dead. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:05 PM, February 11th 2013

hmm oh well i was just curious. thanks for the suggestions.

Hells Hirearchy
I was thinking, Lilith and Alastair seem to be arch commanders, Alastair the supreme Torturer, above all others, probably one of the first along with Lilith who is the very first and in general arch commander, possibly, not sure when samhain was made but I no longer think him between white and black due to Abaddon and possibly other knights being very strong black eyed, so like Azazel, his eyes are just unique.

I'm now thinking that Azazel was the Knight of Hell commander, Abaddon being his 'hired gun', and his awareness of the angels, which is why he is not a white eyed demon, but created as a special elite demon, possibly almost tying in power to lilith, or created by lucifer to be the ruling demon since lilth was a prototype Azazel was the intended king, incase he (lucifer) was absent, Lilth being still high in Command but mostly  used as his last seal, I don't think Azazel was meant to die when he did.

Azazel seemed to have met Lucifer based on his brief conversation with him, but I knowthis is all over the place changing topic, but I noticed the way Abaddon was highly resistant if not immune to the knife, which even suprised Henry, the only other demon shown to withstand it being Alastair, with Samhain being harmed by it aswell.

Can anyone level with anything i'm coming up with here? Azazel certainly seemed to command the demonic army like a general or knight chief would do.

Princepurple (talk) 23:47, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Allow me. I'll simplify it for you. Of the demons you mentioned, the scale is as follows: Azazel > Lilith > Alastair > Abaddon > Samhain. Azazel was indited by Lucifer, to be the Superintendent. While, Lilith was the Queen of the Pit. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:55 PM, February 12th 2013


 * Everybody just really chooses Azazel and brushes off what Kripke has to say about the hierarchy of hell, eh? FTWinchester (talk) 02:42, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with that sentiment, FTWinchester. Unfortunately, not only what Kripke has to say is ignorred by nearly everybody on this wiki, but characters in the series as well, Death's statement he will reap God in the end, being the most prominent. 108.225.237.96 02:54, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I've noticed that as well. I did read on another talk page or something like that on this wiki between General Mod, ImperiexSeed and other users with an almost collective agreement that Azazel is more powerful. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:19, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I personally think that Lilith is stronger than Azazel but i think Azazel led the army because he is the only demon who could design the master plan and ultimately was the only one who new what would happen next. When he died as casey put it the plan "fell apart" until lilith was able to finish the plan by breaking the seals. Azazels connection to lucifer was probably why he was so highly respected and ranked. Kripke's word is law. I think its Azazels cunning and vision which made him of great rank in hell not because he was the strongest


 * AND that's because Azazel, on-screen, was more "flashy", and more evident, with his powers demonstrations. I've heard people say Kripke, the Creator, said Lilith's like the highest you get, and then you divulge into Lucifer (Archangel) territory. But before I even consider that, I'd appreciate a link, as evident proof. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:16 PM, February 13th 2013


 * I posted it months ago on the talk page of Azazel. Anyway, with that thinking, Lucifer was also more, to use your word, "flashy" than Michael ever was throughout the series. Hell, even Gabriel was "flashy" too. Does that make them more powerful than Michael? FTWinchester (talk) 18:27, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hold up there, cowboy. That's true, Lucifer was more "flashy" (as was Gabriel) with his powers demonstrations (like Azazel was, opposed to fellow Demon, Lilith), but let's not forget it was said in verse that Michael was stronger than Lucifer; there are many - upon many - of sources that act as an evidenced of this. I'll give you one. Sympathy for the Devil, season 5; episode 1. It's said that Michael kicked Lucifer out of Heaven. No where in canon has it been proven with Azazel and Lilith. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:44 PM, February 13th 2013


 * Again, fine, throwing Kripke's word on the matter aside, if it not proven in canon then this goes both ways--meaning people should also refrain from claiming that Azazel is absolutely more powerful than Lilith. FTWinchester (talk) 19:15, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * In all fairness, I haven't seen anyone state anywhere on this wiki that Azazel's the stronger, appart from talk pages and blogs, which aren't taken as wiki information any way. Truthfully I'm for Azazel, I mean all we have for Lilith is she's the oldest, she has the higher rank, and she has white light.
 * To that I say rank doesn't always reflect power, Guy had Jackson working for him, and Jackson was clearly the more powerful demon, likewise Meg acted sebsevial to Tom, but meg was the stronger of the two. Age doesn't always reflect power also, Crowleys only just over three hundred and is already a higher demon (even before he became king of hell) while ruby was over seven hundred, and she was still a lower-tier blacked eyed demon, and admitadly white light is impressive, but Samhain had that, so its not that unique. Not try to start a debate, just stating don't be to closed minded to the possibility, and I'll try not to be so closed minded to the alternative. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:57, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Demonic entities possessing "Demon-ray gun-stuff" (White Light, in other words): Lilith and Smahain (and presumably, Alastair) Well, according to some users, Kripke, Creator of Supernatural, said that Lilith is of the highest hierarchy, and you don't get higher than her until you reach Lucifer (Archangel) territory. But, I'm not going to take the users word, simply - no, I need evidence. There's a major difference between "Azazel vs. Lilith", and "Lucifer vs. Michael." NOWHERE in canon has anybody said Lilith is stronger, nor has it been proven - yet while he's displayed feats of great power. On the other, Lucifer has displayed more vibrant power demonstration, but Michael is said to be stronger. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:29 PM, February 13th 2013


 * Ahem. http://eclipsemagazine.com/hollywood-insider/5639/ --68.202.180.121 23:53, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Huh. Guess I was wrong - Lilith is stronger than Azazel. Wow - just wow. Now that I, ImperiexSeed, have read, and now, accepted that, I will formally address to all users: Lilith is stronger than Azazel is. I clip out the snippet, to narrow down the conversion. Eric Kripke: "Lilith is higher than Azazel, Yellow-Eyes. She’s a pretty high echelon demon, you don’t get much higher than her until you start digging into Lucifer territory." -- ImperiexSeed, 7:10 PM, February 13th 2013


 * To be fair, you can't just base the idea that Lilith isnt stronger just because no one ever said it. Plus what evidence is there that Azazel is stronger? A: yes he displayed more abilities but he has more screen time. plus Crowley has displayed more abilities than any demon and i dont think anyone would say hes the strongest demon to appear. B: Azazel would obviously lead hells army as he designed the master plan. that doesnt make him the strongest, it just makes him intelligent. C: Azazel's not displayed a lot of unique abilities with the exception of dream walking. So really i dont think anything implies hes stronger than Alastair. And for all the immunity comments, azazel is vunerable to iron while alastair is immune to iron. so its kind of odd anyway. kripke's word is law.


 * HOLD EVERYTHING, NOTHING'S BEEN PROVEN! before you start bragging, where exactly in that artical does it state Lilith's stronger? All it states is she ranks higher, I already knew and excepted that, its states she's "higher" not stronger or more powerful "higher" as in ranks higher, as she is the first demon. It doesn't prove that she is anyway stronger, as I've already stated RANK And STRENGTH don't always go together, do I need to go through my long list again? And for the record Alastair was still imprisoned by iron, so his immunties are still lower than Azazel. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:44, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that article only noted the fact that she's of higher rank, and therefore, authority. But, let us look at the facts more closely. Lilith is a seal, being the ONLY demon to actually stand for a seal. She's also the Alpha demon - she's the first demonic entity created. Now, I use the term "Alpha" loosely, seeing as she's not the creator of demons. I used to think Azazel was stronger than Lilith, which I variably only going off what's been done on-screen, a preference of mine. Nothing else is really needed, except for a on-screen exemplification, for a defense about something over what's what in Supernatural. In spite of that there, I think I'm re-directly my characterization of Lilith. At this point, I think she's stronger, though she wasn't so "flashy" with her powers and abilities. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:32 PM, February 15th 2013


 * Okay, if you've had a change of heart I except that (I don't exactly get why, or what your arguing) by I understand, and I except it is a possibility, but my point is its still not proof, so stating anything else is speculation, thus it has no place on this page. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:02, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * for the record. Alastair wasnt imprisoned by iron, the second the devils trap broke he freed himself fromit so actually his immunity to iron was higher than azazels who couldnt cross it until the army of demons broke the iron lines. further more implying Azazel is stronger is also speculation as there is nothing to suggest otherwise. the mere fact lilith is the first demon suggests she is stronger.


 * Really? I don't rember that, but I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. Still he wasn't immune to salt or holy water, so I still think Azazel's winning. I've got to ask why do you think Alastair stronger? Sure with lilith there's a lot grey areas, but Alastair? Appart from his great strength and durability (which is very difficult to compare as angels hadn't been introduced by this point) what great feat of power did he ever show? And it does suggest it, but it isn't proof. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:09, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * true he wasnt immune to salt or holy water but to be fair he had it injected into his veins and Azazel was knocked of his feet and briefly stunned by rock salt. i just think alastair displayed equally as much strength and durability as Azazel. i mean for a demon who had basically no authority, all other demons are terrified of him and azazel's omens were pretty normal (cattle deaths, electrical storms ect like other demons) where as alastair caused statues to literally weep blood something no other demon does.


 * Well as for the holy water, sure it wasn't injected into him, but also reacted when it was spashed in his face, which Azazel didn't. Plus I took the salt, as simply demons don't increase there hosts durability, and any shotgun blast at that range will knock a man down, and as he didn't react in pain, I took the stunning as mear suprise. I sort of agree with you, but don't forget Alastair was hells grant torturers, and considering suffering is all hell is for, thats got to be a high possition, he was hardly some no name demon lacky. Plus I think Azazel's omens were more impressive, Alastairs were more erie. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * thats true, i just think Azazel's were more common. Besides tammi was also immune to iron and id think she was weaker than azazel and alastair so im not sure immunity is linked to strength anyway.


 * Well okay, though Tammi is the strongest non special black eyed demon we've seen, and we don't know if she's immune to iron or mearly resilent enough that she can touch it without it causing her noticable pain. And I think they are, as only the strongest demons are immune. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:44, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Guys, guys. Settle down, please. Alastair was not immune to Holy Water or Iron, he was resistant and resilient to them. There's a difference between being invulnerable, or immune, to something and being highly resilient to it. For the Wiki, Azazel's always been revered as either above OR directly under Lilith, but so could assume the basis, that it's mere speculation. His stature, his abilities, his character - they just seem, they give him this sort of charisma that defines his powers. To say he was more impressive showoff-ish than Alastair, wouldn't be that off the mark. To me, Azazel is definitely stronger than Alastair, but to some users, supposedly, he could be weaker. Azazel manipulated fire. Could Alastair do that? Maybe (though, he never PROVED it, so....) Seeing as he's the Grand torturer of Hell--a literal "fiery Pit", as Death calls it--and being that he's an inferno being, I'd say it's highly likely that he can "use" fire, and bend it to his will. But, all demons are inferno beings, and seemingly, not all of them can manipulate fire. He did hold Reapers down--Tessa with one arm--, and beat the crap out of a Celestial being, Castiel. It begs the question, then, why didn't Lucifer entrust the Master Plan to, uh, Alastair, a Demon of phenomenal, raw power? He can overpower Angels, is basically resilient to every demon affability - so, why didn't Lucifer commend him as the bearer of the Master Plan? He must've saw something in Azazel not in Alastair. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:40 PM, February 15th 2013


 * oh im not disputing that Azazel wasnt far more cunning and a greater visionary than alastair or that Azazel isnt very powerful. im just saying we cant say for sure that alastair is definately weaker than azazel if we're saying that rank and strength dont go together. im just saying that its implied lilith is stronger but not confirmed. personally if we just stopped implying one or the other is stronger then we could just drop the debate cause none of us is going to convince or prove the other wrong, right?


 * I quite agree, still thanks for the debate. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:49, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * my pleasure :)

I'm curious, what's the dealo?? What's this "revising war" about, hm? -- ImperiexSeed, 4:20 PM, February 18th 2013

Well it was really a revising war, as a no point did we rewrite the page, it started off debating which demon was stronger, first Azazel and lilith, then switched to alastair and azazel. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd consider that an "edit war." Well, if Lilith holds more authority than Azazel, she could very well BE stronger than Azazel. While, I used to think Azazel was stronger than Lilith, but after visually--with my own eyes--seeing Eric Kripke, the Creator of the show, document that Lilith held more authority than Azazel, made me think - if Lilith held more authority, and Azazel were stronger, (and seeing as power CAN buy authority) why'd he not strip her of her authority, UNLESS she was stronger, too. READ my comment about this - let's see....- 6 comments ago. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:43 PM, February 18th 2013


 * Well, at the point Azazel was running the show, Lilith was trapped at the very bottom of the pit, so stripping her of her authority would be next to pointless, as she couldn't do anything down there. By the time she's free, Azazels dead, so he can hardly do anything. Plus I would like to point out its heavily implied Azazel didn't recognise Liliths authority, or atleast thought she was below him, the evidence is clear in the fact he refered to the demons he was realsing (including Lilith) as "My Army" and that Lilith didn't come into his Hieracy (as stated in "Sin City") plus after his death Lilith had to conqure the other demons. Does that answer your questions? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:17, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would first like to say, I don't doubt Azazel's power in Supernatural, but it's very Creator, Eric Kripke, said at the very least, Lilith's ranking and stature was higher than even Azazel's, and therefore, the rest of the demon army. Conquer - well, she did so quite easily. Remember, Lilith was trapped deep, deep in the Pit, probably in the Seventh circle, close to Lucifer's very location - the Eight circle. It's understandable that Lilith had a hard time just escaping. In theory, what would've happened if Azazel had of been banished to, basically, the cavity of Hell? Being able to freely transverse from Hell, maybe he could've easily left - or, maybe not. We'll never know for sure. Lilith's very location likely rubbed against Lucifer cage, that's how how far she was imprisoned. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:32 PM, February 18th 2013


 * To be fair, Azazel's comment about his "army" is irrelavant as the army of demons was insignificant to the plan. The only reason the demons were freed was so Lilith could escape and break the seals. Azazel even proves this as when he talks with dean he says "my end game is a whole lot bigger" than gathering an army of demons. Also lilith didnt need to conquer anyone as sam was her "competition" but saying that this was coming from demons who had no idea what the next stage of the master plan was. Casey thought sam was supposed to lead them but didnt know why or how. the sins thought the same. Only lilith new that freeing lucifer was the end game and therefore its likely there wasnt a crown to fight for as demons thought the plan was over until lilith put it back on track/


 * I read some of the whole debate between the power levels of Lilith, Alistair and Azazel. It was mentioned that Alistair was not immune to Holy Water and Iron. Keep in mind, he was in a Devil's Trap made by angels. That likely weaked him enough so he couldn't resist it's effects. I have no doubt in my mind that if he were free, throwing Holy Water on him would do nothing. For one thing, I doubt the powers of Holy Water are as strong as the actual smiting powers of an angel, of which Alistair was completely immune to. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:57, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Remove Biokinesis
I think we should remove all mention of lilith having Biokinesis and the whole flaying the people at the police station, sure Haden said she did, but don't forget he was a ghost by this point, and ghosts on the show, have been shown to have very scewered (and sometimes completely fictional) views and memories (examples being: Roadkill, House of the Holy, Of Grave Importance etc) so it seems that all the conflict can simply be attributed to that. As the scene in the episode makes it clear this didn't happen, some people have said that she could have teleported them out of there, but thats impossible, if you don't belive me watch the clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GxkdLF1PxU. You clearly see her blasting them with White light, theres no way they could have survived that, so it can be taken that never really happened, so it shouldn't be included. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:23, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

She could have teleported them out or ordered her demons to do so. Why would Henrikson lie? He's not a demon. and in Roadkill she was having memories and in house of the holy he believed he was an angel after his death. I very much doubt Henrikson would have come up with something so graphically horrible. Lilith could easily have transported them and blown up the station to avoid attraction ( in the sense that no one would go looking for her victims). I also doubt lilith would have been so kind as to allow them all a quick death.

No she couldn't, if you actually watch the clip I supplied, theres no time for that to occur, as demons can only teleport a person if they touching them, and in the scene there are no demons anywhere near any of them. And Henrikson wasn't lying, he probably belived it to be true, but the point is ghosts can have very scewered views, nor can there memoreis be reliable, for instance in Roadkill she had no idea that five years had passed, and in other stories, ghosts are basically angry, and that anger consumes them, thats why they turn violent, and by the end the end up beliving in that anger. Besides isn't it speculation to say something happened, when the on screen evidence proves it didn't? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:36, March 1, 2013 (UTC)

She could have used two powers at once and crowley has demonstrated that you dont have to touch someone two teleport them and lilith is his superior. So nothing on screen proves it didn't happen.


 * The term, 'flay', simply mean, to peal. So here - in the context of this dialogue - it's saying she pealed Nancy's skin "piece by piece, for fortytwo minutes." That sounds like Telekinesis to me. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:40 PM, March 3rd 2013


 * Well then shouldn't it be mentioned under telekinesis. But I think Henrikson states Lilith "flayed" Nancy's skin off, not peeled.


 * -Facepalm- Dude, the word 'flay' means to peal off - that's its definition. So, essentially, he did say pealed off. Well, yeah - it should mentioned under the Power and Abilities section in Telekinesis. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:06 PM, March 3rd 2013


 * just like to say no other witness have lied or shown good reason to lie about how they died. Meg Masters was fairly accurate in her narrative despite all her ordeal. How is applying telekinesis to peel off skin any different from telekinesis targeted at internal organs?


 * Um, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. Applying Telekinesis to peal off skin is no different from Telekinetically targeting someone's internal organs. But, it's NOT Biokinesis. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:51 PM, March 4th 2013


 * how certain are you that meg or azazel's 'biokinesis' isn't just merely telekinetically crushing or slicing at internal organs instead of labeling it as biokinesis? The mechanism or procedure of their display of power was never explained so there is a possibility that causing internal injury is just telekinesis. There is basically no difference between telekinetically peeling off skin from telekinetically attacking internal organs.


 * I see your point, and I firmly agree with your, "There is basically no difference between telekinetically peeling off skin from telekinetically attacking internal organs." But, when specifically harming someone's organs, like kidneys or intenstines, that could successfully be counted as "Biokinesis." -- ImperiexSeed, 1:37 PM, March 5th 2013


 * The largest organ of the human body is the skin.


 * Yes. So.... -- ImperiexSeed, 2:11 PM, March 5th 2013


 * Then under the definition of 'biokinesis' you just gave me, Lilith has biokinesis, as evidenced by her flaying of Nancy's skin.


 * No. The skin is an overall, generalized, organ not a specific one. She flayed Nancy's flesh via Telekinesis. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:25 PM, March 5th 2013


 * Even a gradeschooler's science book states that the skin is an organ. Anatomy, Physiology and medical books all say the skin is an organ. Every group of tissues working together for a common purpose is an organ. What do you even mean by a 'specific' or 'general' organ? No such classification exist.


 * i. the skin is an organ
 * ii. as per your definition, telekinesis targetted at any organ is 'biokinesis'
 * iii. lilith has flayed off Nancy's skin


 * Therefore, Lilith has biokinesis.


 * We either list Lilith as having biokinesis, or we drop all telekinesis on organs as under 'biokinesis', and only consider actual morphologic and physiologic change such as Eve's monster creation from humans. Your call.


 * Ha ha. Biokinesis boarders more on the lines of one's physiology and chemical make-up--how an organism is fabricated. Moreover, here, when the term 'flayed' is used, all it's saying, is she pealed the skin off Nancy's skeleton. That's the work of Telekinesis, not Biokinesis. While, Biokinesis is an extension of Telekinesis, they're not the same ability. -- ImperiexSeed, March 5th 2013


 * You basically just contradicted what you said earlier.


 * No, I don't believe I did. Biokinesis is the manipulation of something's body/form, basically. I think this thread is done, for I'm not going to keep repeating myself to you. And, if you still don't understand, I'd recommend you re-read this, and sift through it for key pointers. -- ImperiexSeed, March 5th 2013


 * Yes, it's done. Because apparently, that's all that happens. When your arguments are logic'd you throw around your weight and say that it is finished--you just won't accept that your arguments are faulty.


 * You won't accept Lilith's flaying off the skin as biokinesis, yet you are very much cool with Meg and Azazel's demonstration of 'biokinesis', which could simply just be telekinesis applied on internal organs. You argue that the skin is not an organ, I tell you the skin is an organ, and then you come up with some weird off-tangent explanation, including 'physiology and chemical make-up', not only deviating from your original definition on biokinesis, but also going nowhere near explaining why two applications of telekinesis on the human body have different relation to biokinesis.


 * Uh....no, I say it's finished when it's finished--not to sway away from any argument at hand--this argument here is, what, like 19-20 long. What a drawl. Yes, I admit, sometimes--but very rarely--I'm wrong, but here I'm not. Biokinesis is when the body/form/construct is manipulated just as Telekinesis is the manipulation of something's trajectory/movement. That's the best, and simplest, way in the world I can describe it to you. -- ImperiexSeed, March 5th 2013


 * The skin is a part of the body. So even in your new phrasing, what Lilith showed is still covered. If you really think that is not the case, then so should Meg and Azazel's ability to make people 'cough up blood' be removed.

On Biokinesis
This is my qualm about biokinesis. Some contributors here have double standards and contradict their own definition/description. Frankly, the only biokinesis I consider are Eve's and Pestilence as they are the only true demonstration of abilities that actually modifies the natural anatomy and physiology of the human body instead of just damaging it. However, you folks define biokinesis here as "Biokinesis  is the direct ability to manipulate/control organs, blood, and thus the entire human body, however it's not Mind Control. Basically, it is a more defined use of Telekinesis."

Now let me put this vis-a-vis Lilith's capability. She flayed the skin of Nancy most likely through Telekinesis. Going back to the definition,


 * i. "...ability to manipulate/control ORGANS..."


 * ii. "...more defined use of Telekinesis..."

Now could someone please tell me logically how those two assumptions provided in the definition disqualify Lilith as having biokinesis when she flayed the skin (i), through telekinesis (ii)? Hint: It doesn't.

Now let us take into account other forms of biokinesis that some people find more acceptable:

Meg and Azazel's capability to make people cough up blood. Now this was never explained clearly but coughing blood would usually dictate that there is injury in the internal organs. Note however, that this is also most likely achieved through telekinesis (as stated in ii). The only difference is that the target is internal. However, in this case and in Lilith's case, both use telekinesis (ii) and both target organs (i).

So if you really think Lilith is disqualified, then effin change your definition because it would be impossible to exclude Lilith's case from your given definition (and thus also disqualify similar cases). Also consider that any injury in the body actually causes changes in the body response in the cellular level, but if that's not what you want biokinesis to mean, and you mean instead for a person to grow a second set of fangs to become a vampire, then you still need to change the effin definition. 99.225.222.123 17:23, March 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hey! Don't take an attitude with me! ....I, in my own right, deserve respect.... Someone 'flaying' someone's skin off with their mind will never count as Biokinesis on the Supernatural wiki. Is that clear?! If not, re-read this till it is! You've officially ticked me off. I've been patient with you for about 19-20 posts - which, I'd say, is an impressive and notable achievement for me....having been that patient and negotiable with you. Biokinesis is when someone, mentally, controls an being's organ(s). Nice day to you, uh, ma'dam. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:47 PM, March 6th 2013


 * What part of ' the skin is an organ ' do you not understand? You just proved yet again that when you can't tackle things logically you just whine about hurt you are and how much effort it took you to be patient and start dropping names like 'dimwit'. Look here, I am working with how you define biokinesis, and I have stated my point in a logical manner and even highlighted how you contradict your own definition. If I remember correctly, if there is even just one different opinion on the matter, no consensus is reached. Well I am that one voice that does not agree that Lilith does not have biokinesis. But no, you don't care. You can't even accept that what I am saying is completely logical given your definition of biokinesis. What a fucking close-minded oligarchy this is. 99.225.222.123 18:56, March 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, you're that "once voice" that's not making any sense. That doesn't give you the right to write anything you please on Lilith's content page. It has to be factually, and your stance is anything but logical. And, for the last time, the definition of Biokinesis is: "when someone, mentally, controls an being's organ(s)." -- ImperiexSeed, 2:04 PM, March 6th 2013

'''THE SKIN IS A FUCKING ORGAN. READ THE FUCKING LINKS.'''


 * I see no control over an organ there. Yes, skin is an organ, but she simply pealed it off, so it's not Biokinesis. -- Imperiexseed,, 2:09 PM, March 6th 2013


 * Oh sure, cause you exactly knew how Meg controlled those internal organs. Because there is absolutely no evidence at all that she also just tore some veins apart, she actually enlarged the veins or she created aneurysms or heck, maybe she even switched the veins with the arteries!! Or maybe she just drew blood out of the veins? Guess what, the blood is also an organ, and drawing it out is practically the same thing as peeling the skin off. Peeling off the skin with your mind actually means you can control it--you can break its natural state and form. The mere fact that one could remove an organ means they have control over it, even if that is the only thing they can do. How the fuck would you be able to peel off the skin if you can't control it? And could you please spell 'peel' properly.


 * And can you put a "?" at the end of your question? :P By that standard, I guess I'll condone the fact that Lilith possesses Biokinesis. Discussion formally ended! -- ImperiexSeed, 2:23 PM, March 6th 2013


 * Thank you very much, sir.

Apporting
As it is taken that to kill the police crew in the way Henricks described Lilith would have had to teleport them all away (or else it didn't happen, and Henricks simply had scewered views of the events being a vengenful ghost), at the exact moment she destroyed the building with her white light attack. As she was nowhere near any of them, wouldn't that count as apporting rather than teleporting? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:54, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good point. It would.

Quote
The quote in this page doesn't sound interesting or intimidating. I think we need to change it.

I completely agree, I'll try and find a better one. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:09, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

This, I agree with. FTWinchester (talk) 07:50, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

We have the following choices: Those five lines are about the best I've scoured. FTWinchester (talk) 08:11, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * "This demon, Lilith, is trying to break the 66 seals to free Lucifer from hell." - Anna Milton (4.09)
 * "There are about 600 possible seals and Lilith only has to break 66 of them, and no one knows which she's gonna break. That's why it's nearly impossible to stop her. And that's why the angels are losing. That's why we're all gonna die." - Anna Milton (4.09)
 * "Look, Lilith is one scary bitch. When I was in the Pit, there was talk. She's cooking up something big--apocalyptic big." - Ruby (4.09)
 * "Lilith is not behind this. She wouldn't kill seven angels. Oh, she'd kill a hundred, a thousand." - Alastair (4.16)
 * "Dude, we are a long way from ready for a face-to-face death match with Lilith." - Dean (4.18)

I personally like the middle three. I think the third one summarizes her and her role in the story best, but the second one sounds the most intimidating even if it doesn't tell us much about Lilith herself (maybe if it doesn't fit here it should go on the Season 4 page or the Apocalypse) and the fourth one captures her vicious side but sounds like more of a quote for her personality or power section than an introductory quote. What do y'all think?--NaiflidG (talk) 13:55, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

But in the QUOTE section, aren't we supposed to add a quote said by the person itself? All the above are describing her, but none are from her. RaghavD  Taking the ROAD less travelled  14:34, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we're talking about these for a quote section, just as the quote for the top of the page (to replace the "Silly goose, you wanna bargain" thing).--NaiflidG (talk) 14:45, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I was talking about the same thing. The quote(s) on the top of the page are usually said the person themselves with the exception of the God page because he hasn't appeared on the show yet. btw I got this one too.

Lilith to Sam: You turned yourself... into a freak! A monster. And now, you're not gonna bite! I'm sorry, but that is honestly adorable! RaghavD  Taking the ROAD less travelled  15:50, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I agree it should probably something Lilith said about herself, but truthfully looking over her dialogue I'm having trouble finding anything. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:32, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith had very few appearances and even fewer lines about herself, and waaay fewer lines about herself that depicts her as the first and highest ranking demon. She was mostly working behind the scenes, which is why I opted to pick out quotes about her instead of something she said about herself. FTWinchester (talk) 19:06, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree, I looked over all her lines, and none of them really seem appropriate, I personally think your second suggestion is probably are best bet. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:34, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith said something about "Don't be afraid. We're going to save the world" in Lucifer Rising. I dunno if that counts. 173.32.44.80 20:09, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, I mean its not bad, but it doesn't really say much about her character.General MGD 109 (talk) 20:12, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

You wanna change the quote or should I? FTWinchester (talk) 20:29, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind you do it, if you don't want to, I'll do it. It was your idea though.General MGD 109 (talk) 20:39, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

I'll do it. I don't want to inconvenience you. FTWinchester (talk) 20:57, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

As you've already done it, I surpose theres no point in arguing its no trouble, my point was simply I didn't mind who did it, just as long as we got a better quote on this page. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:05, June 30, 2013 (UTC)

Rising Son Info
Please refer to this for my queries. FTWinchester (talk) 02:17, August 10, 2013 (UTC)