Talk:Demons

Everybody, I see the editing wars on whether about whether or not angels were the first demons or if they were demons period. Instead of changing it back and forth between if all demons were humans or if some were angels about we put in a section for speculation. The speculation can show that it was possible that after Lucifer twisted Lilith into the first demon both he and his fellow soldiers were cast into hell where they became demons.

If this works let me knowVoyagersknight 12:35, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

YED
Should we put Yellow-Eyed Demons as a subgroup under Special? We've only seen one YED, so it seems like it ought to be "Special" more than "Type".--68.202.251.151 04:55, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Is it too late to say yes to this? 173.32.44.80 20:04, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Red smoke?
As shown in 8X2, Crowley's smoke puff is red....but not because he's a Crossroad demon, as NO other of that type have had red smoke. This is quite peculiar, seeing as Azazel, the strongest demon, still the typical black smoke. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:32 PM, October 11th 2012

Maybe it's because he's the king of Hell? Auditore7 (talk) 18:48, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Wait....what? Auditore7, please think before you speak (or in your case, type). No, that can be the reason. Azazel was the King of Hell, and yet his smoke color - like [MOST] demons - was black. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:53 PM, October 11th 2012

That's what got me scratching my head about the episode, Imperiex (besides the utter bizarreness of monsters having civilized auctions in the first place instead of just killing each other and swiping the stuff they wanted). It was deliberately done, too; the other demons in this episode still had black as their smoke selves' color, so it couldn't have just been an error, and by now the crew knows the fans well enough to know we're going to analyze the hell out of everything they put on-screen. Couldn't have been because he's King of Hell--Azazel and Lilith both had normal black forms. Couldn't be because he's got red eyes--other crossroad demons are black. And I'm still convinced he's a demon, not a fallen angel-turned-demon or whatever the kids are coming up with these days. So it might be either something from his days as King of the Crossroads (if that's a real title and not just a pompous way of making himself sound cooler) or he himself was altered in some way to make him unique. I'm sure we'll find out eventually.--68.202.251.151 20:04, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well yeah, EVEN Azazel's form was the oh typical mundane black cloud. Well, the King of the Crossroads is lower than King of Hell, and still, Azazel has black smoke. Even Alastair - the Grand Torturer - has the same cloud coloring. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:11 PM, October 11th 2012

I personally was expecting yellow eyes because i thought it was the eye colour of the 'king of hell'. But Crowley's red smoke may just be his 'unique' trait, like Azazels yellow eyes and holy water immunity, Samhains monocolour eyes and immunity to iron, Alistair's Massive resistance to ruby's knife, and of course Lilith and Samhain share the white light ability.

So Red smoke may just be 'his thing' but did anyone notice that despite his rank, he is still hurt by holy water? he also fears ruby's knife alot, but holy water? Azazel, Alastair and Lilith had near if not full immunity, i wonder if it to do with Crowley's age? the other mentioned A-listers may be far older, lilith is without a doubt as is samhain.

Princepurple (talk) 22:34, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, its probably just a uniquie trait. But you pose an interesting question, personally I think its because, at the end of the day, he's still just a crossroads demon. I mean all the others, Azazel, Lilith, Alastair, Samhain were either white eyed or there own class (techniqually Samhain was monocoloured, but he was still half white) while crowley is mearly a powerful crossroads demon. I think its the same as why he can't fight angels, while the others could, why he can't bully all demons into following him (its clear that his hold over them is loose, and they hardly fear him like they did with the others) he's simply a very powerful class two demon.

What really bugs me is how did a four hundered year old crossroad demon become so powerful? I'm assuming it had something to do with his title, King of the Crossroad's, but still he's only four hundered, the next demon up from him (samhain) is atleast thousands of years old as he is on the seals. How does it work? General MGD 109 (talk) 22:53, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yes this annoys me, as Samhain is still chained up somewhere in hell but i think he is more powerfull than crowley, sam could only exorcise samhain, but i'd bet crowley is making sure Samhain cannot get out as he would be a major threat, i forgot about his additional moster summoning abilities aswell, seemed abit chaotic though, im not sure if he matches crowley's intellect, hopefully a power struggle will occur between the two, samhain would be more dangerous now that sam cant use his powers.

Princepurple (talk) 23:48, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Princepurple, look. FACTS: Alastair wasn't immune - not at all. He simply found the experience fun. You thought the title of King of Hell has an eye requirement or attachment - the Kings of Hell are not all Yellow-eyed demons, as far as I'm concerened, Azazel is the only one. No, any demon can be the King of Hell so long as they're the highest in the heiricachy. hmmm.... I have to say, I believe it could his 'unique trait', like Samhain's slash of two colors and Alastair's impressive immunity to the Knife. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:52 PM, October 12th 2012


 * I agree Princepurple, I would love to see Crowley Vs Samhain, Samhain would kick into the next century, but the problem is if Samhain did take over, then as he can only leave hell every six hundered years, we would only see him, in shots set in hell, so he and the winchesters would never actually meet. Plus your right, he's probably to chaotic to rule the demons, I mean he did seem to care about control or focusing the chaos, just creating it. Oh well, I hope its resolved in the future. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:02, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Really though, sam and dean have come back several times when not thought possible, with Samhain being a seal, which was broken, now i hope the same rules do not apply, i really hope he gets out so we at least learn more of his powers and hopfully why his eyes look the way they do, but speaking of samhain, did you notice, when he broke through the floor from his release, his smoke was somehow different, it seemed larger, denser and more like a blanket, i know the smoke has changed over time though.


 * But also of note is that crossroad demons such as the one that made a deal with bella, Guy and Crowley's eyes are not the usual red with black pupil, thier totally red, maybe they dropped the old look.
 * 94.0.33.215 02:05, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * My mistake, re-watching the episode, I noticed Crowley did infact have black pupils with his red eyes, but still, the girl who made a deal with Bella, and the demon guy were just plain red.
 * Princepurple (talk) 22:06, October 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * But you have to remember that demons don't operate entirely through strength. I mean Brady is only a black eyed demon and yet he's the horsemen's stable boy. Guy is a pretty weak crossroads demon and yet jackson (who displays some pretty impressive telekinetic skill) is his subordinate. Also Meg displays far more abilities that her brother and yet he seems to be her superior as he shoots her, and lets be honest no one lets their subordinates shoot them. So it kind of makes sense that crowley is so powerful because he's intelligent enough to climb his way up the food chain to the point where he;s the right hand of one of the most powerful demons. As for the red smoke, either it's his special trait or he's not a demon. It can't be because he's a crossroads demon as other crossroads demons had black smoke. It could be because he's the king of hell as neither Lilith or Azazel actually used this title and both displayed black smoke. Also it's not suprising crowley's vunerable to holy water as alastair was too and he's much older. Plus he recovered pretty quickly so it kind of makes sense.

Possible retcon for the use of 'Christo'
Seeing as it was used only on a demon that may be focsuing on certain disasters (at least as identified here in the wiki), a possible canonical way to retcon this method of identifying a demon is that it can only be used on demons that cause disasters.

FTWinchester (talk) 03:13, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

It may be stated on this or another Supernatural wiki, that the 'cristo' used to identify demons as shown in seasons 1 episode 4: Phantom traveler, has since been dropped from the series as it would have been too easy to identify demons.

I also thought of this a few times, but although that episode was the first to feature a demon (not counting pilot as it was not known at that time), it should be seen very much as the 'prototype' for later demons, as no other demons like that one have been seen, it's black eyes only affecting the vessals iris, and the way the thin black like swarm of smoke entered through his eyes, when all other demons enter as rhink clouds of smoke that enter orally.

So it can considdered a dropped element and will likely never be seen again.

Princepurple (talk) 22:12, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

I still don't understand why the Christo entry was removed. Yes, the element was later dropped, but it stated so in the entry, so that really shouldn't have been an issue. It still deserves a mention as a simple fact that took place in the series's history. Also, I think attributing it to a "disaster" or "proto-type demon" is a bit of a fan-wank. Monsters and rules constantly change and evolve as the series progresses, so the fact that the demon entered through the eyes or whatever doesn't mean it wasn't one of the demons that have become very prominent in the show.

I think the entry should go back in. Damaijin (talk) 02:57, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Monocolor-eyed?
Guys, I seriously do not understand why you call Samhain a monocolor-eyed demon. His irises and pupils were differently colored. If anything, monocolor could pertain to any other demon except Samhain, because as I understand the word by parsing it, mono means one and color means color or hue. Therefore, Samhain is the only demon so far that is NOT monocolor-eyed (with the possible exception of some shots of Azazel's). Anybody care to shed some light on this?

FTWinchester (talk) 03:13, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Ah Samhain is one of my favorite topics, I have always found his eyes and abilities of intrest, his white light ability, apparent immunity to iron, and ability to raise the dead, yet not displaying any teleknasis.

Along with Azazel, his eyes are unique (though the fact that only 2 white eyed demons were shown leads to a possibilty that Azazel, Alastair, Lilith and Samhain are all of the same class. not sure though, but Samhain is still alive.

Princepurple (talk) 22:17, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I really don't think you answered my question.

FTWinchester (talk) 02:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

Guys I am still waiting for an explanation on the use of the term 'monocolor-eyed' demon for Samhain. I really want to remove the use of that term as I find it inappropriate. I just don't do it right away because a lot of you here seems to be using that for a while now. FTWinchester (talk) 03:56, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

Um, if you check you will find this error has been fixed, and Samhain has been rechristened the "Multicolour-eyed demon" I talked it over with the admin, shortly after you brought it to my attention, and we both agreed it needed to be changed, and it has, my best guess it was simply an oversight of someone who didn't know what "mono" ment. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:55, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

There is still one photo of Samhain with the description of 'monocolor-eyed'. Anyway, thanks. FTWinchester (talk) 23:21, November 5, 2012 (UTC)

Terribley sorry for the oversight, well its fixed now. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:19, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

White eyed Demons
This is just a curiosity of mine, why are Alastair and Lilith the only pure white eyed demons seen?

There is a good possibility that the other white eyed demons have since been killed as if any were still alive they would surley of helped lilth in breaking the seals, or dethroned Crowley from his position.

I have always thought that Azazel is actually a White eyed demon himself who possibly altered his eyes as king of hell when Lilith could not rule, though i don't know why Alastair, who could leave hell freely like Azazel, would just follow Azazel, and did not help with the plan apart from breaking the first seal.

I think the reason for Crowley's weakness despite his position as kin, may be because he is much younger than the likes of Lilith, Samhain, Alastair and Azazel ( Another almost confirmation of Azazels white eye status is when Ruby placed Azazel and Lilith as 'A listers'), but with all the other higher demons dead, Lucifer in his cage and Samhain also confined, Crowley, although far weaker, was the most powerful demon still free or alive.

I think Samhain, having liliths white light ability, Dead raising, and iron immunity, clearly places him above Crowley, plus he is well over 600 years old at least, I think he is a White eyed demon aswell, but given his unique powers, also gave him his unique eyes.

I think possibly other high demons, perhaps the likes of Abaddon, Belial, Beelzebub, Asteroth, Jezebell, Mephastophiles and such may have been killed by hunters like samual colt, so now there are none left.

Any ideas on this?

Princepurple (talk) 22:32, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree its possible there are other white eyed demons, and they may have been killed by hunters, but I disagree about Azazel changing his eye colour, I don't think thats actually possible, eye colour comes with his biology, my best guess, yellow is the colour above white, and Azazel was a white eyed demon who got elevated. Now onto them, I can confirm that Azazel, Lilith, Alastair and Samhain are a lot older than Crowley. Crowley was alive in the late 1600's so he's under four hundered, Lilith's the first demon, so she's thousands of years old, as Azazel and Alastair are based on biblical demons Azazel (the scapegoat) and Alastor (the False) it stands to reason they are two, while Samhain is also one of the seals, so he must also be in his thousands. Basically Crowley is just an opetunist, who has Sam and Dean to thank for killing or putting out of action all stronger demons, leaving the throne for him. And Samhain's definatly above Crowley, I took his eyes to mean, he's between a white eyed demon and a ordinary demon. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:44, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't Kirpke himself say during an interview that Lilith is more powerful than Azazel?

Source

FTWinchester (talk) 02:53, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

No just ranks higher, don't forget power doesn't always follow rank, plus I think he might have been wrong, as its clear in season 3 Azazel was the boss, Lilith didn't come into it, till she conqured the other demons. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:29, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

[Ignoring the fact that Kirpke's word is law] Azazel was boss, no questions about that. But do you think it would actually be the same scenario if Lilith wasn't imprisoned deep in hell? She just wasn't immediately the boss simply because she's missing in action. Much like how Lucifer did not come into the picture until Season 5. Lilith was the alpha demon--it's almost like her birthright (the only reason she was described as 'the new leader rising' is because other lower level demons wanted their fare share of glory as well). That's why Lucifer wants her released, not only because she is the last seal, but also because she is the one powerful enough to break most of the seals (which the story implied she actually did).

It doesn't make sense for demons to break pattern--(arch)angels have it, vampires more often than not do as well, Eve and the Leviathans, too--that is, ancient age is might. FTWinchester (talk) 05:41, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Purging of this Page
Why are the horsemen included here? The acheri and the daeva, I get--as they are actual legit demons (albeit special kinds of their own). However, the horsemen are clearly not, even in the slightest sense, demons. FTWinchester (talk) 23:55, December 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * --Round-of-applause-- Bravo, you recognize the difference between demons and the Four Horsemen. JK, don't take that offensively. I added them a long time ago because they were fundamentally tools and implement of the Apocalypse, of which Lucifer used--see the correlation? -- ImperiexSeed, 6:59 PM, December 1st 2012


 * I could go on to suggest all of Lucifer's implements should probably go together on a separate page, but there seems to be no qualm about all of them on the demons page. Thanks for answering my query. FTWinchester (talk) 01:00, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * As a whole another page, you mean? Well to suite that purpose, it'd be excessively unneeded--I myself am not going to permit a page be created to describe the philosophical and figurative value of the Four Horsemen. We do have a page detailing the Four Horsemen, though. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:09 PM, December 1st 2012


 * Pardon me for saying this, ImperiexSeed, but you very well know that you nor any other admin do not  have authority to permit  what pages can be created or not as that is up the wiki community to decide as a whole.107.194.22.193 02:52, December 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * People, as editors of any given Wiki community, are entitled to creating and formulating a page, to a degree; it depends on how they contribute. I'll use this as an example. Look at it this way, you know the anonymous Leviathan in the black suit in Dean's flashback in "A Little Slice of Kevin"? For a contributor to come around and make on page on him, would be totally unnecessary, because for one, we don't know anything about him. So for a user to add a page devoted to detailing the philosophical and metaphorical value of the the Four Horsemen would be unneeded, but it could be worth noting on this page. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:36 PM, December 1st 2012

Pamela Barnes 'demonic' fake eyes
In Season 4's 'death takes a holiday', when Pamela removes her sunglasses that she wears due to her blindness caused by viewing Castiels tru visage, the brothers inititally seemed uneasy that her fake eyes are white, like Alastair lilith's eyes.

She says something like 'I know right? very demonic' or something along those lines, indicating that she was, herself aware that some demons had white eyes, despite only 2 appearing with pure white eyes, she said it as if the colour was almost normal, or at least that the existance of White eyed demons was widley known of.

I also think that this is the case as the brothers never referred to lilith when at the time, she was te only known white eye to the viewers, as 'white eyes' or the white eyed demon, although they did know her name from the start, well, kind of, but even after learning of Azazel's name, they usually referred to him as 'yellow eyes', and they did not give any distinction to Lilith or Alastairs eyes, or even mention them in passing.

Does this mean to say that White eyed demons were not as rare as we believe???

Princepurple (talk) 21:54, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well, as far as we know there are only two white eyed demons (two and a half if you count Samhain) (personally there I hoping there make Asmodeus white eyed if he ever gets introduced, but thats besides the point). Personally I see no reason why they wouldn't inform Pamela of lilith having white eyes, or Alastair for that matter, as they had recently battled him. Presumably when briefing her on Anna they would have brought him up, something like "but in the church we were attacked by Alastair, he's a very powerful demon, signified with his pale white eyes, exactly like Lilith's." or such. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:03, April 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * 2 1/2 of a type of demon? No, that makes no sense at all. Yes, White-Eyed demons are very rare, seeing as only two have appeared. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:10 PM, April 4th 2013

Hallowed ground
I think we should discuss the hallowed ground thing. We add that as a sign of a demon's strength, but every single demon on the show who has had opportunity to has walked on hallowed ground. Even low-tier ones like the Meg demon, Ruby, the Father Gil demon, the Channing demon, etc. It seems like it isn't as impressive as we think it is. I wonder if Meg wasn't even talking about demons when she was talking about the "minor leagues". The only thing we've seen hallowed ground affect is the racist truck ghost from "Route 666". Your thoughts, fellow users?50.89.225.132 19:18, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, at the very least, EVERY demon who's appeared on the show, so far, has been able to walk on hallowed ground. So, no, it's not that impressive. There's not been any demon that's been unable to. Meg's "minor leagues" comment implies that a lower rank or class of demon exists in Hell that cannot cross hallowed ground. But in all the eight seasons, we have never see one. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:28 PM, June 27th 2013


 * You don't think thats got something to do with the fact that demons don't go near places that would stop them being able to enter do you? Sure she says minor tier, but Megs pretty much the second strongest non-higher blackeyed demon to appar on the show, and Father Gil was hardly a weak demon (he flung bobby and sam with a gesture, and could smash concrete with a single punch) as for Channing we never get any proof of strength, still doesn't it stand to reason Crowley would select a stronger demon than average for such an important job? All the other ones who walk on Hallowed ground are higher-tier demons who are generally immune or atleast resilent to some demonic weakness or other. I doubt that the majority of black-eyed demons (the masses who don't really get to be characters, that pop up a lot and are promtly killed or exorcised) could walk on hallowed ground, so I think it should still stay. Plus how many demons have we seen that can walk on higher ground six, seven, eight maybe, there are thousands of demons out there. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:38, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * What are you trying to say, General? In the show, every single demon has been able to effortlessly walk on hallowed ground. Try naming one that couldn't walk on hallowed ground. Can't, can you? -- ImperiexSeed, 3:42 PM, June 27th 2013
 * Thats cause none have, as of yet, but is the fact that seven to eight very powerful demons being able to overcome a demonic weakness proof that few demons are affected it? General MGD 109 (talk) 19:50, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * No demons are affected by it, unless the "minor leagues" indicate a rank of demon. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:52 PM, June 27th 2013
 * What does minor league mean? The majority of demons are minor leages, most black eyed demons are this, and they make up the majority of demons, meaning its a majority weakness. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:53, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * General, you've made it clear that you think Ruby is a weak demon, though. How could a weak demon like her walk on hallowed ground if it was truly effective against most black-eyed demons? Besides, it is highly unrealistic that every demon--low-level ones especially--around hallowed ground on the show just so happens to be immune to it when most aren't.--50.89.225.132 20:24, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * That is a very valid point. She is definatly a weak demon, considering she was overpowered by other black eyed demons. Okay you've got me. But is it really unrealistic, as the only demons who do walk on hallowed ground are demons who plan to, as it can't happen by accident, as such would demons who knew they would be able really even attempt it? In fact they couldn't if they wanted to, assuiming to works like other demon weaknesses. And my point still stands, all the demons upto date to walk on Hallowed ground (except apparantly Ruby, I'll have to think about that) have been stronger demons (with one potential exception) so them being immune is not unreasonable. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:30, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's probably a case of unreliable narrator (this case being Jim Murphy), with Meg vaguely referring to minor leagues as ghosts. The only demons that come to mind as minor leagues compared to black-eyed demons are crossroads demons--bar Crowley as the King of Hell, but since it's a case of non-event as opposed to having an event specifically showcasing crossroads demon un/able to enter hallowed ground, we can never tell. Conversely, five frontier churches were intentionally used by Samuel Colt to protect the Devil's Trap, which in combination, could repel even stronger demons like Azazel. This means that hallowed grounds being able to repel demons has some water to it. TL;DR, I'm also confused; it's probably inconcistency on the writers' part. FTWinchester (talk) 06:38, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I think so, too. (On a writer inconsistency.) Either they meant at the time that creatures like ghosts can't enter hallowed ground and demons are powerful enough to be unaffected, or they intended for Meg to be a very powerful demon in her own right and she actually turned out to be a low-ranking one (what I think is the case). I think the hallowed ground thing is like "Christo"--an early feature of defenses against demons that the writers either dropped or forgot about, but which could have made for some interesting stories (imagine Sam and Dean holed up in a church with demons trying to lure them out a la "The Magnificent Seven").--NaiflidG (talk) 13:50, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Your probably right, they didn't seem to have a clear idea of demons till the second season, Initially it was implied demons could take physical form aswell as possess others making them somewhere between the two states, then it was confirmed they had to take a host and did not have physical form on earth. This is somewhat justified in that up until they opened the devils gate there were very few demons on earth, encountering them was a rare event, so its not to unreasonable that details about them were sketchy. And I think your idea Meg was ment to be a strong demon in her own right, thus to play up Azazel.
 * Having said that I'm wondering about are dismissal of Meg as a weak demon, because truthfully I never saw her as that weak, sure she's a black eyed demon, but still she a lot tougher than most blackeyed demons that appear on the show (she did seem to get weaker as the series went on, though this could just be stronger demons became more common so she was lower in comparison.) Reguardless I still hold she is stronger than your average blackeyed demon, and was probably somewhere in the upper-tier as blackeyed demons go (she overpowered several almost casually) so perhaphs the weakness only applies to the majority of blackeyed demons? General MGD 109 (talk) 17:50, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, absolutely, I meant Meg was a low-ranking demon in comparison to demons like Azazel. She's still formidable for a black-eyed demon, even though (as you said, General) she did seem to get less powerful over the seasons--partially because angels became a more intimidating enemy, partially because demons as a whole became less scary and more mook-like, she became an ally so the writers had to rein back her power to allow for more drama, etc. I stand by my statement the hallowed ground thing shouldn't be held up as an example of power, since we've seen all demons do it, but FTWinchester brings up a good point about the frontier churches. That was in late Season 2, so maybe the writers still planned for hallowed ground to repel most demons, but I still think they just forgot about it by Season 4 or so.--NaiflidG (talk) 18:41, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Your probably right, they never seemed that suprised in season four when Alastair or Ruby ran into the church. So they probably have forgotten it. Still I think we should keep it, as only more powerful demons have done it (except Ruby) its still possible to hand wave it that there simplay immune, if massess of blackeyed demons start doing it, then were simply discard it, does that sound fair? General MGD 109 (talk) 18:51, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, they still tried using churches as late as season 8, because Kevin chose to hide in one. So there is some evidence to suggest hallowed grounds (on their own) help repel demons, but only the really weak ones. FTWinchester (talk) 18:54, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, you guys have both swayed me. Season 1-2 canon ("Salvation", "All Hell Breaks Loose, Part 2") does seem to imply that hallowed ground usually keeps demons out, even if later seasons don't remember that. Spoken/Implied canon trumps fan nit-picking!--NaiflidG (talk) 19:01, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hazy enough to be a retcon, but still has a few evidence to point otherwise. Weird. 173.32.44.80 20:09, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Famous people hopping.
I dont understand on how demons, for fun. Dont just haunt random famous people, I think that would be awesome Like live their lives, then move on to a different person. Like The guy who plays Dean, that would be fun.

70.77.64.109 01:00, July 12, 2013 (UTC)Random Person70.77.64.109 01:00, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Angels again.
Ok so I know this debate has been discussed a lot but I don't see why we are saying that Azazel can presumably fight low rank angels. I mean we're not saying that same for Samhain, Crowley or Abaddon so why are we for Azazel. Can't we just keep it unbias and state the demons that we know can beat lower level angels?

Possibly, the thing is its been agreed Azazel is stronger than Alastair, so by logic he should be able to defeat Angels, just as Alastair can. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:10, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

There is no certainty that he is stronger than Alastair, just that he out ranks him. Keeping it neutral is the only fair thing to do. I mean you could argue that because Crowley challenged Castiel when he was severly weakened that implies he can defeat low rank angels but it's hardly concrete evidence. Honestly, I think avoiding assumptions is the best thing here.

There is some certainty. You could but that would be more speculative. The logic behind the argument that Azazel is stronger than Alastor is that he took several demonic weaknesses better than Alastor, ergo he's stronger. And if he's stronger, than he should be able to do what Alastor can do. Its not concrete I admit, but that is the direction the evidence points. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:36, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

But while Azazel shows immunity to holy water but Alastair is not, Azazel cannot cross iron but Alastair is not burned by it. So its hard to determine who is stronger.

Well Azazelw as also immune to Salt, while Alastair clearly wasn't. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:18, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

Iron?
What exactly is the difference between being immune to iron and being resistant to it. I mean with holy water I would say that Alastair is resistant but Azazel and Lilith are immune because they aren't burned by it where as Alastair is but can shrug it off after a bit. But Samhain touched a gate and didn't burn, Alastair touched a chain and didn't burn and Astaroth picked up a poker and didn't burn. Now I guess you could argue that Astaroth only held it for a minute or two but Alastair was tied up for hours with it and when the trap was broken he showed no sign of pain, burning or difficulty getting it off (unlike jeffreys demon who cried out and desperately tried to get it off). So why are Astaroth and Alastair resistant but Samhain is immune?

Good point about Alastair, and yes Astaroth only held it for a minute or two, which "Death Takes A Holiday" prooved is entirely possible for a very motivated black eyed demon (not that Asatroth is just thay you understand, its simply a comparison) so its entirely possible she's simply resilent. What sets Samhain appart from the others is he touched iron repeatedly volentarily and playfully, in ensence it had no effect on him what so ever. As for Alastair the fact he was locked up by Iron chains suggests it was expected to have some affect on him, (though the fact he still broke free seems to show it doesn't). I await your reply. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:13, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

I get that Samhain did it willingly and therefore is immune. I don't argue with that. But at the same time Astaroth didn't have to grab the poker but did so willingly (albeit for a few minutes) but even so Alastair managed to get the iron chain off effortlessly and silently once the devil's trap was broken. I just assumed that Samhain likes to demonstrate his power by touching iron and taunting his victims. I can sort of see why you'd say Astaroth is resilient but surely Alastair counts as immune.

Elite Demons?
What exactly are we classifying as "elite demons". The demons listed as elite demons are essentially just stronger black eyed grunts. The two demons with Lucifer didn't even demonstrate any significant difference from weaker demons. All they did was hold dean and sam for about 6 seconds and then Sam killed them with ease. So why exactly are they elite demons? The three that fought Sam and Dean I can sort of see, but even then they caught the brothers and Bobby off guard and Castiel smited each one with ease and none displayed any power but strength. I'd get if you were refering to the Knights of Hell as elite demons but why do these random black eyed demons count when they're just like any other demon grunts? Especially ones which didn't show any really impressive abilities. The vast majority of demons have been able to over power sam and dean if they re caught off guard.

Good point, we should probably remove it. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:10, October 14, 2013 (UTC)

Demon power levels

It's always seemed like demon's power comes from the demon themselves, regardless of meat suit. So why exactly was Abbadon so insistent that her followers possess Navy SEALs in last night's episode?

96.241.59.192 13:16, October 16, 2013 (UTC)Anon

I think it helps if you vessel is also in its physical prime. Remember, Azazel wanted Sam because he was trained and had experience, Abaddon thought Dean as the perfect vessel. Additionally, wounded vessels or vessels with disabilities could also hinder a demon (if it is unable to heal the vessel regularly), so that would bring us back to choosing meatsuits that are fit and strong. Lastly, I think Abaddon also wanted to go for the guns and the kevlar of the military, so maybe it's a little bit of all those factors combined. FTWinchester (talk) 13:19, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Permission?
Just out of curiosity can anyone explain why Azazel needs permission to enter the houses of the children he gives blood to? I mean every other demon can just break down doors or teleport so why can't Azazel simply teleport in, kill the parents, bleed into the kids mouth, and the same result will occur. Any ideas?


 * In the context of a deal, there is binding force or magic (I think, at least as supported by some dialogue in the series--albeit there are also some contraindications). So if Azazel has the permission, he has the right to bleed into the children's mouths, and he could not be reprimanded for his actions. FTWinchester (talk) 13:43, October 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ah I see. That would make sense. Thank you.

The Season 4 Companion Guide
Does anyone have it, or can anybody get their hands on it? I just heard that there's supposed to be a quote in it from Kripke that says that white-eyed demons are stronger than yellow-eyed demons and that it's generally the lighter-colored eyes, the stronger. Unfortunately, I don't have that Guide myself to confirm that that's true. If someone could get the Guide and find the exact quote, would you please show it to us to prove it's there? It'd be nice to finally put that power level dispute to rest, once and for all. (I apologize in advance for the editing war this will surely cause, but this supposed quote really grabbed my attention, considering the "Who is stronger, Lilith or Azazel?" controversy on this site.)--NaiflidG (talk) 23:26, October 21, 2013 (UTC)

The controversy is quite strange in its own right because Kripke did state Lilith ranks higher than Azazel. Now most dispute tht power and rank aren't the same thing, which may be true. But in the context of Kripke's quote he clearly meant that moving up in the demonic hierarchy meant that Sam and Deans new enemies were becoming more deadly. Otherwise his quote would have been "Lilith ranks higher than Azazel but he's ten times as strong as her so it probably won't be too hard for sam and dean to defeat her" rather than pointing out that "you don't get much highr than her till you're in Lucifer territory". While Azazel was far more impressive on screen, I think Kripke's intention was that Lilith is stronger. Still it would be nice to have a quote to confirm power levels and I really hope that it doesn't cause a editing war.

As far as I remember, no one's ever brought that up in any of the debates I've been in over Lilith and Azazel, I don't think I've ever heard it. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:36, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

Anon, I think it stems from Azazel having the advantage of screen-time and situations to show off (FTWinchester made a post somewhere--I think in the "Who is stronger, Lilith or Azazel" blog--that expresses these points way better than I can) and also just being more popular with fans since people tend to want their favorites to be better/stronger/more special than other characters. Honestly, I like Azazel much more than Lilith, but since all in-show and out-of-'verse statements point to her having been stronger than him, I do think that she was the most powerful demon to exist in Supernatural verse.

General, same here. I don't know if that's just because not many people have the Fourth Season Guide (and those who do have it might not be on this site) or if it's because the person who said it was in there was mistaken/lying. I'd like to find out for myself so I'll try to get the Guide as soon as the possibility comes up, but that might not be 'till Christmas. Do you know if we have any users who already have it and can confirm/deny?--NaiflidG (talk) 19:52, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sadly no I don't, still I trust you to find out whether or not its true. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:00, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

High-tier powers: access to/from Hell
I have always been seriously bothered by the correlation between 'power/rank' and 'ability to leave hell' that is being implied by the article. I don't think the ability to easily leave hell correlates to greater power/rank. While it could even be argued that the correlation is inversely proportional, I would rather take it that it really simply depended on the demon. Cases in point, Samhain and Lilith. Both are incredibly powerful, but both needed elaborate rituals to be freed. Does that mean they are weak? No. In fact, in both of their cases, they were incredibly strong (and even members of the strongest demons), hence the great difficulty in freeing them. It's pretty much what you would do to extremely dangerous criminals: you put them in a high-security prison (just like Lilith was described to be "neck-deep in the pit"). Although not a demon, the same case held true for Lucifer, who despite his incredible power, was still unable to leave because of his cage. Additionally, it also applied to Eve, who was powerful, but required rituals for her to crossover from Purgatory into Earth. FTWinchester (talk) 19:59, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

You've got a point there, though that does beg the question how opening the devils gate works, as surely it would only open in one section and all the demons who were closest would scrable there, as its very doubtful so many demons were at the bottom (not to mention the still tortured souls)  so how did work for freeing Lilith? Reguardless I think you can't argue being able to teleport across different dimensions is a greater display of power than being able to teleport to different places in the same dimension. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:25, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

I know that moving from one dimension to another one is a greater feat of power than just moving within the same dimension. There is no question about that. But that is excluding the fact that a) the different dimensions exist on laws that defy our understanding of nature and physics and the fact that b) some beings were more heavily guarded than others. So we also can't easily assume that just because one being could move freely across dimensions, they are more powerful than those that can not. This is again, based on the fact that many powerful beings were given more 'locks' than others, so to speak. Castiel had the ability to enter hell and lay seige to it. He could also enter Heaven at that time. So that's three dimensions (including earth) under his belt. At the same time, Lucifer remains trapped in the cage. Does that mean Castiel is more powerful than the archangel Lucifer? No, because Lucifer was subjected to extreme levels of security. This is similar to the case of Lilith and Samhain. If we are to draw comparisons to the power of beings based on their ability to move about/teleport/cross dimensions, at least apply the comparisons only to beings who were equally 'free', and not between beings where one has obviously been imprisoned. FTWinchester (talk) 14:08, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well for that to work, we have to also take into account the fact that Azazel and Alastair (and probably Crowley) were also very old and powerful demons, so it begs the question why they weren't imprisoned in a similiar manner? Aside from a few comments exactly how imprisoned in  hell a demon is has never been fully stated. Lucifer we know was imprisoned in well the cage which was specially build to stop him escaping. As far the shows shown, only the most powerful demons can travel in and out of hell at will, all the rest need to be released. Your point does stand that Lilith and Samhain were very well buired, but it does beg questions. Personally it would probably be best if we kept the facts, but removed the comparisons. Mind you several demons do possess powers that others don't. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:34, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

I obviously wouldn't have the answer as it would be the writers who would have the discretion as to how secure Lilith and Samhain were imprisoned (most probably for plot device and plot progression, at the same time being grounded on lore). Nevertheless, what you said was indeed what I was proposing--for us to remove the correlation between 'power' and 'ability to move to and from hell freely'. Additionally, we never knew how 'free' those demons were before the devil's gate was opened (save for Azazel). Crowley may have been making deals before the gate was opened but remember that there were rituals to summon crossroad demons, and crowley had his own summoning ritual to earth as well. Furthermore, several other demons with unique and/or relatively immense power were released only after the gate was opened: the Seven Sins, Casey, Astaroth and Ruby. My last argument against the (positive/direct) correlation is that throughout the series, most extremely powerful beings (also usually the most powerful of their kind) have been imprisoned as well--not just for demons. Death (the most powerful horseman AND reaper) was bound by the Host of Heaven (also consider how the analogy would also apply to reapers being able to move freely through most dimensions while their infinitely stronger leader remained trapped), the Leviathans and  Eve were imprisoned/thrown into Purgatory, and finally, we have Lilith and Samhain being kept in maximum security in hell. All of them required elaborate rituals before they could be freed. Given the implication of how the article is currently written, it would then mean that all of these examples would be 'weak' simply because of the fact that they can't move out of their respective prisons/dimensions initially. And we both know that is very far from the truth (a full 180 degrees, actually). We have more examples of stronger demons (and other beings as well) initially being unable to move about freely than those who are strong and at the same time also free right from the start. FTWinchester (talk) 22:38, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I know thats what you were preposing I was saying I agreed with you. As for your analogies, I still think there slightly flawed, traveling between dimensions and escaping from a prison specifically designed to hold you are two diffent things. Still I do agree with you, however we also have no evidence that said demons could come and leave hell when the felt like it. Its strange though it appears the nature of hell depends on the writers, sometimes its just one big area were everyone it thrown and they only way out is either to be summoned or be powerful enough to leave by teleportation, sometimes it is a much more complex structure littered with many levels.General MGD 109 (talk) 23:43, November 24, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, cool. I wish the writers would get a bit more clear on many parts of the lore. Unfortunately, I think these questions are best asked during a convention (the likes of which I no longer wish to attend due to the fact that they are costly and that most other participants would be fangirls who would ask the actors about their personal lives and/or shipping concerns rather than focusing on the actual show and its lore). FTWinchester (talk) 00:00, November 25, 2013 (UTC)

I really don't know where to begin, at least where I'm jumping in. There's two theories, and only two. By the looks of it, at least on the surface, Hell holds cells, variated in different spots. That's why the hundred of demons couldn't just leave without the devil's gate swinging open. Or, certain demons are specially confined, whereas most others can travel freely. ImperiexSeed, 7:02 PM, November 25th 2013

That's what I was thinking, too, but we never really got an in-depth explanation on how some high-tier demons were unable to escape initially despite their power. Anyway, the article has been clearer now on the topic at hand. FTWinchester (talk) 06:28, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Underpowered
I sometimes feel like demons in Supernatural are very underpowered. I mean, compared to what they could be; I really like how super-strength is portrayed in Smallville. The characters actually look affected. Let's take Alastair, for example. He should be able to toss Dean through a building. In "I Know What You Did Last Summer" all he did was slightly push them. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:28 PM, November 28th 2013

It's CIS/PIS (Character/Plot Induced Stupidity). It's because our portagonists are mostly regular humans wrestling with supernaturally strong beings. I understand your pain, but if we were to be more realistic, Sam and Dean would not have survived past Season 1. It's also not just for demons--it's for everyone. Many of their opponents keep on forgetting they have telekinesis and biokinesis and all those other abilities that should allow them to squash the Winchesters from several feet away. FTWinchester (talk) 00:21, November 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * These type of beings, angels and demons, in real-life can destroy this universe 9765891345623887654 times over. That would warrant a talk article on "Overpowered." LOL. That's not what I'm asking, NOT EVEN CLOSE! I'd just like it to be more powered than Alastair, my favorite demon and possibly character, barely shoving them around. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:08 PM, November 28th 2013

Devil's trap bullets.
Bit of a random question, but if demons are shot with a devil's trap bullet, couldn't they just dig it out of their meatsuits? I mean they can still move their arms as Abaddon was able to grab and shove Henry and if she was able to pick a bullet out of her head couldn't any demon shot in the chest just dig inside their host and pick out the bullet?