Talk:Big Bad

Main villain of Season 6
Crowley or Raphael? User, David Kaique 06:53, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Definatly Cowley. Raphael was Castiel's main antaganist, but he wasn't a nig concern of sam and dean. Castiel harvelle 11:33, October 7, 2011 (UTC)Castiel Harvelle

In this case, the two were. User, David Kaique 21:42, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Should we consider Castiel to also be a villain in Season 6? Regardless of how sympathetic his motives were, he was trying to open Purgatory and the boys ended up trying to stop him, so he may qualify.

Demons?
Should we really have Demons as the main villians for season three? One this page is for individual villains, second shouldn't we then include ghosts for the first two seasons, demons for the fourth season, angels for the fifth season, monsters for the sixth season, and Leviathans for the seventh season? Its either one or all. General MGD 109 21:44, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Michael a villain?
There seems to be a lot of back-and-forth changes regarding Michael's status as a villain. Can we resolve this once and for all, please? -- MisterRandom2 14:32, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well he wasn't really a villain, he was more of a delliusional/anti hero, as he wasn't really a villain he can't be classed as a main villain, its simple logic. General MGD 109 20:51, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

he was however one of the winchesters greatest foes and technically is an enemy of sam and dean. plus zachariah is his servant, he's working through Michael. I don't feel the horsemen qualify as though powerful villains they each only appear once or twice, the other supporting villains appear multiple times.


 * Everybody, Michael's NOT a villain of season 5. How do you even classify him as a villain, what has he done to prove such? -- ImperiexSeed, 6:25 PM, May 27th 2012

He's shown willing to destroy the earth for th sake of fighting his brother, is an enemy of sam and deans, when crowley lists all the enemies that sam and dean have defeated along with all the others listed Micheal is one of them. he is the force responsable for the other enemies of the brothers: zachariah, raphael. He is equally as much as a supporting big bad as lucifer hallucination or bela.


 * No, he's really not (you CAN'T say as constant as hallucination of Lucifer). You got a point with Crowley's quote, in his comparison to villains. Anyhow, Michael is not 'bad' per se, as he's doing what he believes right. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:36 PM, May 27th 2012
 * Aren't they all? I mean just because you feel it's right doesn't make it so. Dictators throughout history believe their methods and goals were reasonanble and right but were really evil. I mean look at Hitler. I realise what you mean but he's one of the most repetitive enemies sam and dean have faced as he is the force that would be responsable for earths destruction even when lucifer asks not to fight, he refuses on the basis of what he feels is "right". that doesn't make him good, it makes him corrupt.


 * He didn't want to kill lucifer, he was only doing it because that is what god said, that is the way it was ment to go, Michael was ment to kill lucifer, and thus bring paradise, that's why he can't be classed as a villain, his methods, weren't for personal gain, or hatred or anything, he was just doing what was ment to be done, sure it was dark, but sometimes dark things happen, thats just the way they go.
 * And besides why should Michael care if people die, the way he probably see's it, if they good then there go to heaven and in which case there be free from all there strife, and hardships of life, and happy in paradise, And if not, well then it is there own fault.
 * Also Michael wasn't shown to be a villain, he only met Dean twice, and in neither of the those occasions did he do anything agaist them, in his first he told Dean simply why it occured, as well as saving his parents, and his brother, in the second, he just told him it wasn't his fight.
 * He may have been a questionable leader, but he still possesed many good traits, he was loyal, strong, brave and forgiving. All all he wasn't really a villain, at most he was an anti villain. General MGD 109 17:57, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * He still felt his brother was a monster and once paradise he and his brothers would become the new rulers of earth aswell as Heaven so it's partially personal gain and the theory of sure its dark but thats how it goes is so similar to lucifers perspective. lucifers plan was to restore the earth to its natural beauty just like michael except with michael humanity would still exist although it would be a tiny population, lucifer would kill them as he is disgusted by them. one his second occasion meeting dean he calls him a maggot and probably would have slaughtered him out of insolence if cas hadn't attacked him. Lucifer is strong, brave and suprisingly loyal as he does keep his word and never lies or tricks sam but lucifer is definately a villain. and to an extent lucifer is forgiving as he lets dean live twice and is willing to take in castiel. and michael's not forgiving as he refuses to forgive lucifer when lucifer offers to stand down. anti-villain is fair but villain isn't out of the question, he is simply a villain who justifes his actions with good intentions as many villains do.


 * True he had a bit of aggression with lucifer, but be fair, if they person you pratically raised, turned on you and your beloved father, and corrupted hundereds of your brothers and led to there deaths, wouldn't you be a bit angry? Okay he did have something to gain, but that wasn't a factor in it, he still didn't want to kill lucifer. Also you can't compare the two, everything Michael did, was because that's what his father said, he wasn't do anything for any personal gain, sure he never forgave his brother, but personally I think that's justified, and he still didn't want to kill him.
 * Everything Lucifer did, was out of his own pride and envy, he wanted to kill everyone because he was jealous, Michael didn't want to kill anyone one, it was simply a side affect of there battle, one that he clearly accepted. And another thing, Lucifer had no care for anyone, not even his own children, who worked to save him, to him they were meaningless, the only people he still cared about where his brothers. And what do you mean Lucifer doesn't lie or cheat? He only said he didn't lie or cheat, he lied to nick, saying he couldn't bring back his family, he lied to anyone he told his story, making him seem the villain, he lied as much as it suited him. He was simly cold evil in its simplesst form.
 * I'm not saying michael was that nice, but he wasn't evil, he was mearly doing what his father told him, he was mearly loyal to his father, lucifer had no loyalty, he killed anyone who got in his way, even his brothers, when he didn't need to. And you can't argue Michael isn't forgiving, he kept forgiving Zachariah after he continually falied, while both Lucifer and Raphieal killed anyone who failed them, he also forgave Uriel.
 * He wasn't a nice person, but he wasn't evil, so he can't be classed as a villain.General MGD 109 19:08, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Michael believes in his father but is willing to please him at any cost, even if it means destroying his brother and billions of creatures that he is suppose to love by his father's will. Luicfer did out of envy and pride but convinces others he has nobler intentions which is what bad people do. They justify their actions with good intentions. Michael wasn't evil but he was bad and quatiflies as a big bad. Demons arn't lucifers children, they are his slaves and he made them as mockeries not as perfect creations. he killed cas in defense of michael and offered gabriel a chance to stand down. it's not justification but its something. He tries to defend himself by twisting the truth which is what all villains do, which is what michael does, they alter the truth to suit their beliefs. Michael didn't forgive uriel, he was dead straight after he betrayed heaven. zachariah was forgiven but like i said lucifer forgave cas which only shows both wanted to retain as much support as possible. He wasn't pure evil but he was arrogant, aggressive and was willing to do anything to get his own way which i think makes him qualify as a big bad.


 * Yes and he did have a number of negative charateristics, but as you said, he wasn't pure evil. And that's what seperates him from the others, and means he can't be classed as the big bad, you seem to keep missing the fact, that everything he did, he did because thats what his dad told him to do. He was told he had to kill Lucifer, and bring paradise to earth, that was what motivated him, sure he didn't really care much (if anything about humans) but he also didn't hold anything agaist them, all he wanted to do was do what his father wanted him to do, and under all the bad traits, he was simply doing it for that reason, he didn't hate or want to destroy anyone or anything, other than lucifer, and personally I think thats justictified. That is why he can't be classed as a big bad, to be a main villain he had to intentionally want to destroy and kill large numbers, he didn't, it was mearly a side affect of what he wanted. General MGD 109 19:13, May 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand me, apparently. Yes, basically, villains are "doing what they think is right", but, on my part, that was only a comparative notion.


 * We're in agreement, however: Michael is not a villain, and we both think so.

ImperiexSeed, 4:51 PM, May 29th 2012

Committing near genicide is never justifed. Michael is willing to kill billions just because his father commands it, which makes him no better than any other villain. zazhariah is only obeying Michael, jake is only obeying azazel, the horsemen are only obeying lucifer ect. Michael may have had good intentions as the angels would have paradise but at the cost of billions of humans and a large number of his brothers, including the one he was closest with. Michaels' motives are no better than anyothers. and though killing billions is only a side effect, azazel freeing lucifer was his main objective but lucifer destroying humanity was only a side effect but he is still a villain. and bela and jake were not pure evil either. both have shown some good intentons but both are ultimately evil despite these. Michael is a supporting big bad in my opinion because: he is willing to kill billions of humans and his brothers for no apparent reason other than god told him to, he is aggresive when he doesn't get his way, he is a recurring enemy of the brothers and even when he has to opportunity to end it without any bloodshed (when lucifer offers to stand down) he still insists on fighting and slaughter. Michael may believe he is doing right but so is lucifer from his perspective. Michael shows no conscience of his actions, and though his motives may be justified his actions are not and he is no better than lucifer ( though lucifer started it). Michael is easily a minor villain as though he demonstrates no hatred or disgust ( except towards lucifer) he is willing to destroy his brothers and billions of humans when he has the choice not to do so.

For these reasons Michael should qualify as a supporting big bad. He is not the most evil of sam and dean's enemies but he is still one of them.

What's with the introduction
What's the introduction talking about, how the main villain isn't always a charater, and is sometimes a natural force. All the main villians were charaters, if it means the horsemen, then although they were natural forces, they were still charaters, and individuals. Plus what they were doing wasn't natural, it was there (or lucifers) whims, either explain it or change it. General MGD 109 20:54, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Do the Horsemen really qualify as supporting villains?
The horsemen are great villains but War and Famine both only appear in one episode each. Pestilence appears in two but though they are excellent villains they are only encountered once by the brothers. Really supporting villains should be those who appear repeatadly but are not the major threat/ concern. I mean, if they qualify why doesn't the Whore of Babalon or Anna in season five or Samhain in season 4 ect. ?
 * They function as supporting villains when you group them as a single collective entity (barring Death). By the way, could you please sign your posts.-- MisterRandom2 14:43, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. As a group it's fair but individually I disagree. The horsemen are important villains, I just felt Michael had a greater or as great a part to play as a supporting villain.--M. Clyde 16: 24, May 28, 2012.
 * That's why they're listed as a group and not individually. And as for the Michael thing, just let it go. The general consensus here seems to be that he doesn't count as a villain. -- MisterRandom2 15:54, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm just saying it makes more sense, for the reasons stated above.

Why does Michael not qualify as a supporting big bad?
Michael is not pure evil, I get that, but surely an enemy so powerful deserves that title. And really there's no reason he shouldn't qualify as one. The fact he is a recurring enemy of Sam and Dean is enough in itself. He does feel he's doing the right thing but so do Lucifer and Gordon and Jake from their perspectives. Michael isn't pure evil but he is still willing to kill his brothers and billions of humans, not for the sake of peace but because his father wishes it. He is corrupt and if he wanted peace he would have excepted Lucifer's offer to stand down but he still insists on fighting and slaughter just to prove himself a good son. That may not be malicious but it's still selfish, aggressive and coldhearted. Michael shows he's aggressive as he also nearly attacks Dean after referring to him as a maggot. Michael does want paradise on earth because his father commands it but Lucifer wants paradise as well but he wants it free of humanity, where as Michael will allow what's left of humanity to live but he doesn't care for them. His motives are hardly better than Lucifers and Lucifer IS definately a villain. Michael is equally as much of a villain as Jake or Bela and is simply a villain who justifies his actions with good intentions, so why make him out to be a hero when he is as formidable a foe as half of Sam and Dean's other enemies.

I think we need to add Michael, Castiel and Samuel Cambell
I think we need to add Castiel, Samuel Cambell, and Michael because regardless of their motives they were in opposition to Dean and Sam and the did do terrible things. For example Michael he may not of been going around doing his own dirty work but he was giving Zacharaiah the orders. Michael also no doubt tortured Adam off screen to say yes to him he also erased Mary's memories of what happened to her and her son's and because of that she went right into that nursery and died thus making Michael as at fault as Lucifer was for telling Azaezel what to do the two may not have done it but they may as well of pulled the trigger.

Now Castiel I get people love the guy but he did a lot of terrible things in Season 6 he lied to Dean and Sam, he double crossed Crowley of all people and to make matters worse he killed his own angels for getting in his way. Castiel also broke down Sam's wall on purpose in an attempt to strong arm Dean. Then in season 7 he went on a genocidal rampage.

Samuel should also be placed as a supporting villain because he worked for Crowley and left Sam and Dean for dead. He also kept secrets from them. Granted he did it for his daughter but Dean even pointed out the problem with that and he didn't listen.

And to all who say they can't be considered villains because of their motives remember what War said? "Good intentions quick slide to hell buddy boy."MrAnonymous (talk) 06:38, August 16, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous

Okay I understand where your coming from, but I'm afraid we can not, where to begin, okay lets start with, no one's suggesting just because the lot of them had good intentions that they weren't villains, all where saying is they don't qualify as main villains.

True Michael was responsible for Zachariah, although his methods weren't exactly Michaels design as its constantly implied (and even stated) he mearly wanted results, he didn't care how they were gotten, which admitadly is a evil thing, as for Adam, he didn't require toture, Adam had already said yes to Michael, when being mislead by Zachariah. And Granted he did do that, but are seriously suggesting causing one persons death is enough to make you the main villain? All the others on this list personally killed dozens if not hundereds. The thing about Michael is he's not corely evil, he's mearly what you get when your driven to the point where, your most beloved brother betrays you, your father abandons you, and your put in charge of hunderds of others for thousands of years, with no idea what he wants or doesn't, therfore Michael simply follows what his father told him before he left, and its his riginess and fantic loyalty that leads to his defeat, but he wasn't fully evil.

Okay Castiel, granted he did do a lot of evil things, and his motives are lot less symperfetic than Micheals, Raphael takes over, and he wants to let them out to restart the appocalypse, admitadly he did several very evil things, but that doesn't quallify him for the main villain, any more than Sam doing all the evil things he did in season four qualifies him for being the main villain. As for season seven, you can't possibly suggest we include him as the big bad for that, I mean one episode of hostility, mostly brought on by the souls? As for season six, the two big bads mentioned are the ones responsible, Crowley was responsible for Castiels corruption, and Raphael led him to Crowley.

And Finally Samual Campbell, okay he also did some evil things, but we have to put all he did in perspective, all he was was simply the pawn of Crowley, he was manipulated simply by false promises, and love, I mean he even put it himself, he loved his daughter, why should he care about two strangers more than her? Expecially considering was more cold he was (at the time atleast). All in all he was evil at the end, but that still doens't quallify him as a secondary main agonist.

I assume this is the first of many long paragraphs, so he's my first stab, I await your response. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:47, August 16, 2012 (UTC)

As for Michael you pretty much described Lucifer and Raphael. Michael did kill people like in the bar scene with Zacharaiah. He also probably would have killed his own underling if it meant getting Dean to say yes this was confirmed by Zachariah's panicked reaction to Dean's condition to saying yes. Also with Adam having already saying yes we've seen with Dean that this doesn't mean anything. Dean was willing to say yes that's why he was able to kill The Whore of Babylon. Then soon afterwards he changed his mind. This implies that saying yes has to be at the very moment of possession and not just a "Okay you said yes now I can take you whenever I want." The reason why Raphael could return to his vessel was because he already used his vessel.

Castiel I concede that there are similarities between Sam and Castiel's situations but Sam how do I put this he was flying half blind with Ruby(wolf in sheeps clothing) as his co-pilot. Castiel even admits to not trusting Crowley and knowing it was probably a mistake from the beginning so he wasn't really flying half blind. The difference is Castiel double crossed his own demon to which Crowley said "I don't even break contracts this big!"(Personally I'll believe it when I see it.) He also outsmarted Raphael and Crowley in getting the souls and ultimately at the end he was literally last villain standing and to be honest when I think of the Main Villain of S6 I just picture Castiel at the end saying "Profess your undying love for me your lord or I will destroy you".

I've gotta admit I sort of agree with you on Samuel Cambell the more I think about it he didn't really have a impacting roll in fact Soul Less Sam was more of a supporting villain in my oppinion. Samuel even stated what he did pales compared to Soul Less Sam and Soul Less Sam made it to the Season Finale which automatically puts him in the running I guess. Now I'm thinking we should make a page for Soul Less Sam.MrAnonymous (talk) 21:59, August 16, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous

Okay that went a lot better than I expected, I'm glad you agree with me on Samuel Campbell, but I wouldn't attempt making another page for souless sam, there already has been one, and it was removed only a few hours after it was put up, I mean even he stated, "Same mind, same heart, same likes, same taste in music," (might not be exact but I haven't seen the episode in a while).

Okay onto Michael, I dissagree with you stating my argument is for Lucifer and Raphael, Raphael was just a big jerk (with maybe two redeaming features), and Lucifer? Don't get me started, all his talk about being the victim was hogwash, all he did, he did simply out of Pride and spite, he betrayed his family, his father, his brothers, everyone all because, his father said that he liked Man better than angels (granted not a nice thing to say, but still as Gabriel pointed out, he was right, as atleast men strive to be better, while angels don't really care about that sort of thing.) And for that reason he began a war, that led to the deaths of his own kind? If Castiel could spur up so much damage on his own, imagine what the devil did to heaven. I mean if he had one, what do you think were the chances of survival for all those (except perhaphs the archangels,) who had joined him? Exactly Lucifer was, is and always will be the devil. Michael on the other hand is a generally symperphetic charter, I mean if the person you loved more than any one, with expection, betrayed you out of such a simple matter how would you feel? And then you know for the next thousand years or so you will one day have to kill them, well I think you can imagine that has to hurt hard, not to mention your own father who you fanatically followed, suddenly runs off without even a thank you? I'm surprised Michael didn't turn out worse. I also think your argument generally fits what I said, "he just wants results, he doesn't care how he gets them," but I will admit I was wrong about the saying yes bit. But at the end of day, in comparison, was his wants really that unjustified? Sure he was intending to do horrible things, but none of it was out of hate, or personal gain, it was all simply out of loyalty to an absent father, and that means he can't qualify for a main villain.

Ok onto Castiel, you make some valid points, he was doing worse than sam, and it was clear that he had walked to the gates of hell them selves by the end, but as I already said, he was driven to it, I mean if Raphael won the appocalypse restarted, so in his opion it was all or the world, and when you have that at stake, you do things without thinking them through, and Crowley was the one who drove him to what he did, he was the catalyst, sure castiel cheated him, but I'm betting Crowley would have been equally happy to stab him in the back the moment he got the chance. Also Sam was equally unsure at the begging, but he like castiel simply focusd on the postives, and the bigger picture, oblivious to what it was turning him into. I admit if he had kept that motive he had at the end of the sixth season, then heck he would be up there just under Roman (this is on my list so you don't have to agree.) For that reason he doesn't really quallify for the main villain, although his argument is looser than Michaels. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:06, August 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, people. Look, Castiel's quite similar to Michael's motive, but both were not evil/malevolent (like Demons or pagan Deities), per-se. Michael was just abiding by his father's original wish, to destroy Lucifer. Castiel, being just a unworthy turd to Raphael, couldn't possibly stand up to Archangel Raphael, so he needed an ally, which just happened to be Crowley cause he didn't feel right bothering Dean. So, yeah, he made some poor choices, but he wasn't evil. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:27 PM, August 16th 2012

You make some valid arguments about Castiel however he was willing to hurt Sam and look at the way he talked to Dean "I'm an angel your just a man." He also lied to them and let Crowley torture someone and all he can say to Bobby and the boy's is "I'm sorry Crowley got carried away." But I do see where your'e coming from and Castiel while being a villain probably can't be a main villain so I guess S6 didn't really have final boss villain.

Now on to Michael I don't see him as a good guy at all. He didn't even acknowledge Gabriel's death or that his own brother killed him. Also his excuse is "I'm a good son." I see Lucifer and Michael as two sides of the same coin. In other words Michael is Joseph Stalin and Lucifer is Hitler.

Michael is as spoiled as his brother he made it clear before going into the pit that he wouldn't let anyone rob him of his destiny showing that at the core of his heart(metaphorically speaking) that all he cares about is glory. Even when Lucifer of all people pleaded for them to just walk off the chess board and avoid the entire battle Michael refused calling his own brother a monster. Also it's been confirmed that Michael had along with Lucifer been torturing Sam(probably Adam to) in the pit. Does that sound like a good guy to you?

Also going by your logic Lucifer couldn't be considered a main villain as he never went after Sam directely in S5 minus Hammer of the Gods but can you really say Michael wouldn't go after them himself if he could? Most of the time he(Lucifer) had his demons and Meg (who were like his own Zachariah) do most of the grunt work. A demon stated the situation perfectly to Sam and Dean (To Sam) "We're not supposed to hurt you." (To Dean)"But Hurting you is encouraged." Michael did the same thing only in reverse. Actually I think that while the boys were in heaven Zachariah planned to torture both of them.

Besides most of the time Lucifer wasn't really doing anything or making threats against Sam himself because he was taking the more manipulative route, Michael on the other hand was very demanding and took the more direct and forceful route not even trying to win Dean over which is probably why Lucifer won in the alternative future.

Now you say Michael only cared about results? Sending the sadistic angel Zachariah after them with the orders "Do what ever you want I don't care just get me results." along with death being the price of failure is very evil and sends the message he's willing to do anything himself it's no different from hiring a hitman to do your dirty work. Like I said Lucifer and Michael are two sides of the same coin just like Daleks(who kill anything they deem as impure) and Cybermen(who force their way of life on to people removing any and all free will). At the end of the day Michael and Lucifer employed the same tactics and in the end both only cared about getting what they wanted.

MrAnonymous (talk) 00:04, August 17, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous
 * So, he, Castiel, got a little cocky (in saying he's an angel and Dean just a simple man), but again, he's not bad. Dude, Michael's the Leader of all of Heaven, he's a busy guy. Plus, it was far into the Apocalypse when Gabriel died, so in essence he was preoccupied. And Michael didn't exactly tell Zachariah, oh "do whatever you want". Zachariah went ballistic, Michael just didn't intervene. Michael, spoiled? No, Lucifer was God's favorite. Uh, Lucifer is a monster. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:26 PM, August 16th 2012

And Michael isn't a monster? Not intervening when your dog gets off the leash is the same as giving the order. Raphael and Michael were tyrants that's all there is to it. Think I'm wrong? Look at Anna and Castiel in season four and five. If an angel dare break even the slightest rule it meant death or severe punishment and brain washing. Saying that Michael isn't a villain because he was the leader of heaven is the same as saying Sadam was a great leader because he was the guy in charge. Even Castiel said Heaven was corrupt with Michael as it's leader and Raphael's idea of how heaven should be was the same as Michael's regime.MrAnonymous (talk) 05:04, August 19, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous

If I may interject, but to my understanding, there seems to be some confusion on the concept of antagonist and villain as being one and the same. However, that is not the case as the definition for antagonist goes as follows:

1. opponent: somebody or something opposing or in conflict with another.

2. character in conflict with hero: a major character in a book, play or movie whose values or behavior are in conflict with those of the protagonist or hero.

As you can see neither definition refers to an antagonist as a villain nor regarded as being evil. With that in mind, it basically applies to anybody or anything that have opposed Sam and Dean over the course of Supernatural, regardless of alignment. Yes, a villain is normally the antagonist of a story or movie more often than not, but it's flawed logic to assume only they can be as such. The antagonist is not always a villain, nor is the protagonist always a hero. With that said, I fully agree with Mr. Anyonmous that Castiel, Michael and Samuel Campbell should be added. 107.194.23.166 06:16, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Okay we've already agreed to drop campbell, because he was nothing more than a pawn of Crowley, manipultead out of love for his family. So I won't state a case for him, well I recently rewatched a few episodes, including the finals of season five and season six, so I think I've got a few points to counter.

First on Michael, I think your statement that he is after Glory, is a misinterpratation, I mean he even states he doesn't truthfully believe the day is here, and you can tell that he is uncomfatable doing it, but mostly he doesn't want glory, he turns down his offer to "step off the cheessboard," out of two reasons, loyalty and hatred, he's still loyal to his absent father, who said this is how it had to go, just as Dean never questioned his father, Michael isn't questioning his, and for the other reason, as much as he still loves lucifer, and its clear he still does, I mean he doesn't instantly attack lucifer, he lets him talk, he agrees its good to see him again, and you can tell that he truthfully means it, he also pauses after Lucifers speach, and you can tell that he is actually considering the idea, and he's even tempted to take it, but he turns it down because what he's doing is the right thing.

Maybe not the best thing, but in esesnce killing the devil is a good thing, I mean he even states it, they were happy once, they were together, and then Lucifer betrayed Michael, who loved him dearly, he betrayed his father, who loved him the most of all angels, he betrayed them all, simply out of pride, on a not really important matter, he brought everything on him, he destroyed there very relationship, and then to the end he has the audacity, to try and blame it all on a father who loved him more than anyone (well untill man came along, but the point still stands) can you truthfully say that Michael doesn't have the right to be angry at him?

Thats all Michaels motives are, he wants to be a good son, he's doing what his dad told him was right, sure he uses darks methods, sure he's a villain, he stopped being a good person centuries ago, but he isn't pure evil, everything he did, everything was entirely out of loyalty, he was just doing what was ment to be done, we have to look at this in the big picture, I mean Lucifer destroyed everything out of pride, he caused the deaths of some many other angels, so much destruction, so much chaos, entirely out of pride, and now he wants to destroy everything there is, purely out spite. Is stopping him really evil? And sure people will die, a lot of them, but then again, in the supernatural unvierse, nearly everyone goes to paradise on there deaths, so is it really that bad? Atleast thats presumably how Michael thinks. Michael might not be a good person, but he's not pure evil, all his dark acts are done out of good intentions. And for that reason he can't be considered a big bad. The big bad is simply the most recuring villain, it has to be a villain who's motives are only to aid themselfs, how do any of Michaels motives aid himself?

Now onto Castiel, sure he did a lot of bad things, but he wasn't evil, I mean he spends a whole episode questioning what he has done, and praying for answers, how many other villains would do that? And to the end, or atleast just before the end, he's still trying to stop them get hurt, he only his evil things, so he can stop Raphael, as I've already said, if Raphael wins, then the entire events of season five are for nothing, the end will still come, so he simply focuses on trying to stop that.

As for cheating crowley, is that a bad thing? Is it really safe to hand the king of hell that much power? I mean with that much power, he destroy angels, destroy anything, is handing that much power to a crazed, sociopath a good idea? No, so why is refusing to do it a bad one? Well what do you say to that? And don't expect a reply for a little while. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:26, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * I confidently agree with General MGD 109. Cas not handing oever even half of all of Purgatory's souls was very responsible on his part, as with such power he could dominate Hell, destroy Angels and leash every Hellhound around his thumb, control a vast percentage of the world, so yeah, Cas did a good choice by not doing that. As admin of this wiki, I firmly say, "Michael and Castiel won't be put as villains on this page, and I'll think about Samuel Campbell. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:11 PM, August 19th 2012


 * With all do respect, ImperiexSeed, I am a little bothered by how you said "As admin of this wiki, I firmly say, "Micheal and Castiel won't be put as villains on this page, and I'll think about Samuel Campbell." as I feel like you are implying that your status as an admin gives you the authority to alone have the final say on the discussion. 107.194.22.222 18:14, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm sorry. But as admin, I have the right to end a discussion. Look @ the policies and rules if in doubt. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:20 PM, August 20th 2012


 * Yes, you do have the right to end a discussion as admin, however as we are apparently deadlocked (2 users in favor, 2 users oppose), deciding in favor of yourself by default is an inadvertent misuse of that right. In order to come to a decision we can all agree upon, we would need a neutral party (another admin) to end the discussion impartially. 107.194.22.222 02:20, August 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here I've got an idea, I think will end this, what if ImperiexSeed, you create a poll blog, stated "who should we add as a new big bad?" With the catagories, Michael, Castiel, Both, Neither, and add a bit of information, as well as a link to this page, and a encouragement that they read this before they vote. We also add a link to that blog at the bottem of this page, and we keep the voting open, till the next episode of supernatural airs, then its closed, and which ever catagory gets the most votes, wins, thus ending this argument, in a democratic way. What do you think? General MGD 109 (talk) 19:56, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why would I make a poll? The "which one's stronger, Azazel or Lilith" one didn't get resolved, and neither will this one. People have their own opinions, therein there will always be disagreements, so conducting a poll is pretty pointless. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:43 PM, August 22nd 2012

Supporting Villain > Secondary Villain
I have never encountered the term 'supporting villain' before, and it sounds a bit weird. Can't we just use secondary villain instead? Also consider the fact that some of the 'supporting' villains even consider the Big Bad to be his/her enemy (i.e., Eve vs. Castiel vs. Crowley, Zachariah vs. Lucifer). FTWinchester (talk) 00:08, January 1, 2013 (UTC)



Naomi?
I think Naomi should be placed as "supporting villain" of the eighth season David, January 22, 2013