Talk:Jack Kline (Nephilim)

Condition
Does anyone know what was wrong with the baby? Dagon said the baby's fine but I'm not sure. Kajune (talk) 15:58, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. I think maybe the baby is fine but the doctor saw something special that marks it as not entirely human.Dtol (talk) 16:00, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

I think that doctor was going to warn Kelly about the impact of baby towards to mothers body, but Kelly intervened. Not sure tho, I think he is fine. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:47, April 7, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I looked at the scene again and it was as if the fetus turned to look at the doctor. Kajune (talk) 01:48, April 8, 2017 (UTC)

Possession/Empowering
I'm not sure he was empowering Cas and not partially possessing him. Cas said it was both of them that killed Dagon, indicating to me that he did more than just give Cas the power to kill her.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:25, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

I think the baby empowered Castiel. This would make more sense given that archangels have this ability. I doubt it was possession or partial possession since Castiel was pretty much still himself afterwards. He healed Dean. You could say mind control though, but Castiel has been known to turn on the Winchesters whenever he is certain he's on the right path. Kajune (talk) 15:31, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a full possession, it looked to me like he may have taken partial control of Cas while he held hands with Kelly. When Cas let go, the baby's control of him was gone. Actually, the baby's influence was gone from him after Cas lit Dagon ablaze: pay close attention and his eyes return to normal either as he shoves her away or right after.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:34, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

Image
Hey, what happened to the image on this page? Kajune (talk) 02:57, May 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * To quote Wilbur Robinson "THAT is an excellent question!!!"--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 03:08, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Dtol removed it:  I'll deal with him, he also commited another offense he was warned about. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:33, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I restored the picture and tidied up the page some. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:39, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Good job, Zane. :) Kajune (talk) 03:46, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

No problem. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:59, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Parentage
Yes Lucifer is the father in some sense. But isn't Jefferson Rooney as well? As while an angel or demon possessing a human alters the DNA, as possessed humans have angelic grace or demon blood they don't replace it altogether. So isn't Jefferson like his biological parent and Lucifer his spiritual/biological parents. As Lucifer just passed his angelic grace with Jefferson and Kelly having sex. It's not like Jessie Turner when his mother gave birth to him from being possessed by a demon.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 18:51, May 22, 2017 (UTC)
 * That's really just speculation so we can't post it on the page.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:50, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

How is it speculation? Jefferson gave the DNA to Kelly. It simply was altered by Lucifer's grace. A Nephilim is a human with a soul mixed with grace. The Cambion was birthed from his mother being possessed by a demon in someway. Lucifer made jack through Jefferson.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 20:04, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

But its not enough to list him as a parent. Like how a vessel can't really be called an angel's body since they are merely possessing it or using it as a vessel rather than it being theirs.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 20:16, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

You made my point, the vessel isn't the angel's body just whom their possessing he has his own DNA. It's not like Lucifer created a physical body and had sex with Kelly. That would be his son, 100%. Jefferson gave the DNA as the vessel Lucifer's grace just went with it. I'll wait for consensus on this, as it's not a black and white issue it's a gray one. As if something like if Jefferson was sterile than, Lucifer would have created the DNA while possessing him. My argument is we know as canon, an entity angelic, Demonic, spiritual, etc adds or alters DNA of its host.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 20:37, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

Well whatever the case its not enough to add it to the page as Jefferson having any sort of relation to the kid beyond being Lucifer's vessel at the time of conception is all speculation. We need something more concrete to add Rooney as a relation to Jack. A comment made in the show or something like that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 21:41, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

Well that isn't yours or mine decision to make, so I'll wait for consensus. This just seems like logic Jefferson didn't stop being Jefferson while possessed by Lucifer. To say Jefferson has no kind of biological connection seem speculative as it's also never stated a child bore from a possessed person isn't theirs. Lucifer isn't physical but spiritual and needs a vessel to effectively influence the physical world. He took over Jefferson, but he didn't replace all of his DNA while possessed.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 00:48, May 23, 2017 (UTC) Thank you Kajune.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 06:56, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * When an angel possesses a vessel, the DNA becomes the angel's. The same applies with demons. That's where demon blood comes from. The vessel is reduced to a mere conscience. The angel has, in every way, materialized on Earth by taking a vessel. Jefferson is not the father, Lucifer is. The soul part that Jack receives is from his mother, the grace from his father, and blood from both. A mix, a combination. And you can't use Amara as an argument. Her relationship page lists her vessel's parents. Not hers. Her vessel's parents aren't Amara's. Jack is Lucifer and Kelly's. No one else's. And Amara has no parent. Kajune (talk) 06:02, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Can you show exact stated evidence, that proves that a possessed person's DNA is no longer there's?&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 11:08, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * Demon blood? Angel blood? What was Sam drinking if the blood coming from a possessed vessel belonged to the vessel? If the DNA of a demon's vessel didn't change once possessed, then Sam was gaining super powers from human blood, because it did not contain the DNA of the possesser, according to your logic. Kajune (talk) 11:27, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Changing as adding on, not completely genetic rewrite. Besides Jesse Turner the human woman is listed as his mother. And she was virgin and was possessed by a demon to make the Cambion. How is Jesse her son and Jefferson not a biological parent of Jack as well? For as by your argument Jesse shouldn't be her son, which it was stated he was.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 12:06, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * As much as I don't mind conceding to your argument if you have a good point, we have very little to explain Jesse Turner's backstory. He, a half-demon, empowered by Lucifer being outside of The Cage. Jesse's conception also made little sense. How did his virgin mother conceive? Through possession? That leads me to believe Jesse is not a counterpart to Jack or Jane, but a little more unique, a little more ill-explained. And while Julia considers herself the biogical mother of Jesse, no one has stated that Jefferson is Jack's, not even Kelly. So yeah, we're both pretty much speculating, based on what? Half-explained facts. I seriously suggest you do not state Jefferson is the father. Kajune (talk) 13:11, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

At the very least, Jefferson is a biological source as the vessel. Isn't also never stated an angel possess completely rewrites DNA in the host. I'll not add it until consensus is made or facts from series become clear which is likely not to happen.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 13:26, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Beyond the Winchesters being wanted for trying to assassinate Jefferson in First Blood, I don't think the dude has even been mentioned since his possession. This is a pointless debate as we have nothing supporting that Jefferson is in any way related to Jack. Let's just drop this, okay??? Consensus is that he's not related, you are the only one that thinks so in this discussion Twilight.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:55, May 24, 2017 (UTC)

Page Name
It is a known fact,Jack is an important character and he should have /Jack page name instead of Jack_(Nephilim) because whenever Jack is spoken,we all know he is the nephilim one,not the deceased human guy from S09E07.Wouldn't it be better to swap pages and rename current Jack into Jack(human) or something? The-Real-Ironwill (talk) 21:31, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

Jack
One source I found for the name "Jack" is "Godly": http://www.world-english.org/boys_names-j-l.htm - Blaid 21:21, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Add it then. JS0662 (talk) 21:22, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Is he going to get some actual legal ID?
Personally I think this is only a matter of time before he gets a badge or some fake IDs, but is he going to get an actual ID or is just going to be off the grid? And do you think his name on that ID will be Jack Morningstar or Jack Kine or Jack Novak or Jack Rooney or maybe even Jack Winchester? Is it going to say his actual birthdate or be aged a bit further since he doesn't look like a kid? These are the theoretical questions that I have about him. Lygarx (talk) 09:35, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, we might find out on the next episode unless the writers suddenly forgot that he needs one. But for me, I think his name will either be Jack Kline or Jack Winchester (since Sam did say they were "brothers" in The Rising Son). Touchinos (talk) 10:12, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Jack's powers
I have begon thinking that Jack's ability to create waves of energy that throw people and or objects is not telekinesis. telekinesis is the ability to move things with your mind. Jack did this with the pencil and it looks different and more controled what I would think of when I think telekinesis and is also more in line with other charecters use of the ability. on the other hand the shock wave thing he does seems different. more like some form of energy progection or explosive power then telekinesis. I did look up powers that match what he is doing and it seems to be seismokinesis in nature and seismic burst as the aculal power. what do the rest of you think. ThomasNealy (talk) 14:24, November 17, 2017 (UTC) I can agree that it is a kinetic power but no other character on the show showed that kind of special effect when they use telekinesis. I'm not convinced it is normal telekinesis. Demons, Witches, gods, angels, Amara, and God all use Telekinesis and not one shows that energy shock wave when they do. Even Jack when he did it with the pencil showed no special effect. It should be defined as something other then general telekinesis. It is unique to Jack so far and no other character showed a similar ability.
 * First, you need to use proper punctuation on here. Second, its clearly some energetic form of telekinesis.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 07:31, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Since we are mentioning proper punctuation on talk pages. You need to put an apostrophe on its. It should be it's as in (it is), not (its) the plural of it. Glad to know we can help point out errors for each other to make the better. :)

ThomasNealy (talk) 08:19, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

Also the Telekinesis section seems to being a little long for a brief description of the ability and use. Can one of you mods or Admins decide how to pair it down a little. Looking over the other powers on other pages and I can see we don't usually go into that much detail or list every time the power was used.

ThomasNealy (talk) 08:31, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

It's clear that it's telekinesis. You might consider it a "Telekinetic blast", but that's still just telekinesis. They've just added more special effects. They've been doing that a lot. It's like the new special effects for molecular combustion. People used to just explode into blood but now it's CGI colors and dust. Still the same power, though. JS0662 (talk) 15:53, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

Heavenly Portal as a Weakness
Like the Grace extraction, it is also doubted by the characters. When first introduced as a possible weakness, it was when he wasn't born yet. When Castiel, went to heaven't portal to meet an angel and ask if Jack was being kept in a cell, It is implied that the Portal wont disintegrate his molecules and kill him. Now that he is born, I don't think he is bound by this weakness anymore. There is a conflict and it is either possibly or formerly a weakness.Lygarx (talk) 08:00, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that only applies to a Nephilim that was sired by a normal Angel. I mean, Jack managed to cross The Empty so he is literally on God's level in terms of power now. A simple portal wouldn't have any effect on him. Touchinos (talk) 08:07, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * That is a fair statement, I also think that it may have to do with the fact that he is no longer a fetus. A lot of the things that should have killed Jack should no longer be possible now that he is grown. Lygarx (talk) 08:13, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it was only a weakness because it would have killed the mother and he was to young to survive out side the womb yet. ThomasNealy (talk) 08:36, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Angel Radio
If that is considered a weakness, it could be considered true for any angel that has experienced an overwhelming amount of voices and suffered pain from it. the Ritz Zhen that felt pain from the amount of voices in pain, Tessa who felt the screaming voices in the veil. Even Castiel got a bit woozy from when the angels were in a panic and chattering about Jack's conception. I guess time will tell if it will stay a weakness due to his initial inexperience with his powers. Lygarx (talk) 08:10, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it was the overwhelming amount but rather the fact that he was just not used to it yet and did not know how to filter it out. I'm not shure it is a weakness so much as a over exposure to a new stimuli ThomasNealy (talk) 08:39, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Power of God
Let's please not get in to another fight about if the God of the show and the God of Real Life are the same and if the show one is as powerful as the real life version. We can not just assume that every time a character says something that challenges the "power" of God that they are wrong and lying. We need to take what the characters say at face value until or unless something shows us else wise. ThomasNealy (talk) 23:16, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I'll show you to how God restored Castiel to life quite a few times and the semantic argument of "He said rebuild" isn't a strong ground to stand on. Plus, considering Jack isn't a powerful as God and yet could reach The Empty, it isn't out of the question to think the more powerful character is capable of the same feat. If we took everything at face value, we should've changed Lucifer to "Nigh-Omnipotent" on a level beyond The Darkness when he said he could beat it.

Taking them at face value after all.

Additionally, if it did work on a "rebuilding" aspect, which is God crafted an entirely new angel with all the same memories and experiences, then Jack calling out for "Castiel" would make every single version wake up, not just one. And several of them would refuse to go back to sleep since they have work to do. So we would have the Castiel Quartet calling Dean, not just a single Castiel.

Kaestal (talk) 23:21, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Fact one. God never claimed to have resurrected Cas.

Fact two. The angels have said that Cas was all the way dead this time.

Fact three. Lucifer is the father of lies, and is known to brag or crouch what he is saying to win others over to him. And his statement was later clarified by the show, showing that it was brag and the truth. There for rendering his statement invalid. (no such statement has been made for the empty as of yet)

Fact four. Jack never went in to the empty, merely sent a call into it. He did not resurrect Cas himself merely called to Cas. Cas woke him self up after that and got himself tossed out of the Empty.

Fact five. We can not write to the wiki on future speculation based on where we think the story is going or how things will play out. We work with what we have now. Nothing the entity said is open for interpretation at this point. We have none of the background to say he is a known lier and we have no other in show references to this matter either. There for what the entity claimed stands as fact until otherwise disputed.

Fact six. Jack never claimed that he was responsible at all either. We still do not know exactly what happened. For all we know that only reason it work was because they have a bond of some sort.

Fact seven. It is an assumption that Cas was sent to the empty all the other times he died. We can not make that assumption given the new evidence that the angels and the out of show interviews. Which call in to question just how dead Cas was before this time.

ThomasNealy (talk) 23:42, November 26, 2017 (UTC)