Talk:Michael

Appearances
Sympathy for the Devil isn't the first time Michael was mentioned he was also mention in 2.13 {C "Houses of the Holy" 64.141.83.253 23:45, September 28, 2009 (UTC) Smallville94

It's not confirmed who is stronger, Luciifer or Michael

Actually, it has been mentioned several times in the show that Michael is either slightly stronger or much stronger than Lucifer, both out of common sense that he is the older brother (who "practically raised" Lucifer since he was born), by Dean's confidence about him being able to kill him, which is a clear way for the producers of the show to get this message across ("We go nuclear..." "...Michael can ice the devil." "Battle's gonna' torch half the planet."), by Lucifer's confidence that his plan will succeed because he knew Dean would not say 'yes' to him (in 5x04), by Lucifer's speech about Michael to Sam where he mentioned that he "idolized" Michael and that Lucifer had "begged" him to "stand with me" (which could possibly mean that Michael was his mentor), by Lucifer's almost 'fearful' (to a certain degree) reactions, given by his facial expressions to Michael's words in the fifth season finale, and finally by the fact that it was Michael who fought, defeated and banished Lucifer to the Cage in the first place. It's also presumable and likely that the power of a certain angel is determined by their age: this would explain why the first four angels are called 'Archangels' and why Gabriel has less power than Lucifer, who is older than him, and why all younger angels have much less power than the Archangels.

Swan Song Updates
There needs to be some updates from Swan Song for example Location Changed to hell and Occupation Former Viceroy of Heaven since Castiel now has that posistion

As a matter of fact, Castiel is fighting for that position since Raphael wants to take it temporarily to be able to release Michael and Lucifer from the Cage. It's still unclear whether Castiel in fact wants the position for himself or if he simply wants to stop Raphael.

From the Transcript of Supernatural Season 7 episode 1 Meet the new boss.

CROWLEY: {C I take it you intend to keep the live share? So, what you're saying is hell's being downsized?

CASTIEL: {C I would have done away with it completely, but I need a threat to hold over my enemies, and we need to keep Michael and Lucifer's cage.

Now this is not to change anything. But an wikiauser as they were not logged in stated that that was Castiel's exact words. While its not unrealistic to see how its said that he/she would think that this is the exact words.: The Twilight of Your Despair 17:09, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Here's is a link to the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfL6VDmgKRs&feature=endsceen

If you turn up the volume and listenly carefully, Castiel clearly says "And we need to keep Micheal "in" Lucifer's Cage", as you do not hear the "duh" sound. 76.212.204.224 17:37, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

I rewatched the scene at full volume a few times and I still clearly hear Castiel say "And we need to keep Micheal "in" Lucifer's Cage." Although your suggestion is a possibilty, there is no way prove otherwise. As far as we know it could also be a result to a slight dialog change as the scene was being filmed or even a typo in the transcript. In the case of dilalog, we must go by the episodes themselves over transcripts as the former is the finished product. 76.212.204.123 20:45, February 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, regardless of what was said, it's clear (from watching) that Michael's stronger than Cas, while powered by Purgatory's souls. Good day. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:58 PM, February 17th 2012


 * That is still sepeculation. Until a Salute to Supernatural, a Supernatural Book, Interview with directors cast and crew etc confirms it. If you admin ImperiexSeed state on the articles for the record that Casteil powered by Souls aka Godstiel was weaker than Michael or Lucifer than you have broken you own rule of no Sepeculation. Once its official from the series itself I would never question.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:05, February 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait, are you accusing me of speculation?! You have no such right, unless I speculate. Cas clearly seemed worried about them escaping, but yet you're telling me he's the stronger one, which makes no sense. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:13 PM, February 17th 2012


 * I never accuse you of speculation. However while I don't think he could have snapped his fingers and killed him like Rapheal I think could have at least Fight them equally (but that speculation on to itself). For his statements that he would have done away with the realm Hell itself as told to Crowley. As well as believing he kill Death a being at least as strong as the true God. I was thinking that until its stated it could be offically stated it could remain unknown on both accounts. As if you put one and come to find out later its the other one you have to reedit everything that isn't right.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:25, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

The reason why Cas didn't try to use Death instead of God kill Lucifer was that Death is not suppose to be controlled and is an unbias force that reaps all life.: The Twilight of Your Despair 16:31, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Seasons 5 companion.
So on Michael's page it mentions in the season 5 companion that it was stated that Death is more powerful than Michael. Can anyone post a picture of that so whenever I see a person saying that Michael is stronger can shut up about it? There's a Michael lover on YouTube who downright refuses to believe that Death is stronger than Michael.L4D2 Ellis 18:24, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Michael, and where he falls on the strength-scale
The majority accept that Michael comes third on the strength grid (I think), but some say because it's hasn't been stated, that it doesn't count. But I say, let's look at the fact. God and Death come first, obviously. And seeing as Castiel was scared of Michael after absorbing all of Purgatory's souls, he has to come next. He was made Heaven's Viceroy, so he is theoretically stronger than any Earthly creature. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:57 PM, September 29th 2012

Just because Castiel was scared of Michael doesn't make Michael stronger. Lucifer is the only other Archangel whose powers are said to rival Michael's. Slightly weaker but he comes the closest. If Michael is more powerful than Castiel, then that would mean Michael has the power to snap his fingers and cause Gabriel and Raphael to explode. Do you really think the power scale between the Archangels to be that large? Another person on YouTube had the same arguement but I find it illogical. Why would God create 2 incredibly powerful Archangels then 2 incredibly weak ones by comparision and still have them be called Archangels? Now back to Castiel being scared of Michael after absorbing the Purgatory souls. If we based Michael's powers on that then that would mean that Death is weaker than or equal to Michael. Castiel showed no fear of him until after Death put him in his place. Castiel was confident that he could take on Death but not Michael. Doesn't really work does it? Michael also seems to be vulnerable to some angel weaknesses like the Holy Fire and the Angel Banishment Sigil. Michael made it a point to ruin them before touching down and talking to Dean. Castiel has said that the sigils don't work on him as he was able to find Crowley and to add that, the angel blade did not work on him. I would think that Castiel is more powerful than Michael but still didn't want to deal with him as he couldn't kill him as easily.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:26, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? ....Like really. God created them differently, and for different purposes, so of course their power level are going to differ: Raphael for protecting and monitoring prophets, Gabriel as his Greatest Messenger, Lucifer as his most radiant creation, and Michael as his mightiest. And Death could've killed him in an instant, but Castiel was swept up in his new-found power, and was arrogant. This is how the scale is set up: God > Death > Michael > Lucifer -- ImperiexSeed, 12:40 PM, September 29th 2012
 * Seems like you didn't put any thought to what I even said. Looks as though you just glazed over and got the jist of what I said.
 * I doubt their level power should be that wide of a margin. Castiel's ability to snap his fingers and explode an Archangel reflects what Raphael did to him. Meaning that Michael and Raphael's power levels are that wide of a margin. Just because their jobs are different shouldn't make their powers levels be that much of a difference. All 4 of them are Archangels, meaning their powers should be similar in strength but just with different jobs. What I mean is Michael and Lucifer should not be considered Archangels and be an entirely different order of angels due to their great strength. Or Michael and Lucifer should be considered Archangels as Archangels are said to be the strongest angels ever, with Gabriel and Raphael being their own class just below Archangels. Anna, Castiel, Uriel, Balthazar, Rachel, Inias and Hester were all in the same garrison with Anna as their lead. She was the strongest of their garrison but I doubt the strength was that significant.
 * Yes I know Castiel was swept up in his new found powers but it makes absolutely no sense for him to fear Michael but not fear Death. That shows no testament to Michael's strength. He was arrogant enough to believe that he could take on Death himself but not Michael or Lucifer.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:17, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * But it is that elaborate; Michael > Lucifer > Gabriel > Raphael. Michael likely could not just, say, snap his fingers and kill Cas while he absorbed the souls, but I am say he'd ultimately win. But their job should correlate to their power, like Gabriel as God's Greatest Messenger, he's skilled in teleporting and delivery. So what, are you saying Michael and Lucifer are Seraphim, cause they're ordered differently in Supernatural. Zachariah is clearly a Seraph, and he's below Archangels, so that substantiates the premise that all four of them are Archangels, and plus Anna states that only four Angels have ever see and conversed with God, and all them seem to have a pretty good idea of God and his personality. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:48 PM, September 29th 2012
 * Yes I know it's Michael>Lucifer>Gabriel> Raphael. But you make it sound like Michael>Lucifer-8,000 mile gap->Gabriel>Raphael. I just don't believe that the power gap between the 2 greatest Archangels and the 2 weakest ones are that large. It just makes it sound like Gabriel and Raphael are barely above Zachariah. Zachariah admits that Lucifer is incredibly powerful, but he himself is powerful enough to be the Winchester's worst enemy if he needs to be. Making it seem as though the powers between Archangels and Seraphs aren't that large. I also don't think that Michael would ever win in a fight with Castiel at all. I would think that Michael is strong enough to withstand the explosion but not enough to actually defeat Castiel. He would just be powerful enough to be a thorn in Castiel's side. Castiel was clearly above any Archangel with his immunity to the angel blade, angel sigils, his lack of flapping wings when he teleports and the fact that he was able to easily kill Raphael by snapping his fingers.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * There's large discrepencies. Death, a being a diverse knowledge, calls him a mutated Angel, which implicates he's still an Angel, yet none of the Angelic weaknesses affected him and he said himself he's not an Angel anymore. See the inconsistencies there? Even Angels hold Archangels in high esteem, just listen to the diolouge and the tone when the word "Archangels" is used. Even Zachariah - a self-obsessed Angel - admits Lucifer is powerful, and even equates Michael as they're leader, which means he's his leader. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:34 PM, September 29th 2012
 * A mutated angel yes, but still above Michael and explains why none of the Angelic weaknesses affect him yet clearly affects Michael.
 * And your point with Angels holding Archangels in high esteem would be??? Do you actually think before you reply to me? Because it looks like you go off saying something completely irrelevant to the topic. I really don't see the point in you bringing up how Angels hold Archangels up on a high esteem has anything to do with the power scale between the 4 Archangels and Zachriah's power.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't rememver specifying "8,000", so you made that number up yourself, which isn't reletory to this. Truth of the matter is, Michael is more powerful than Castiel after he absorbed all of Purgatory's souls. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:00 PM, September 29th 2012


 * It shows exaggeration. And yes that number is perfectly related to what I am saying. There is no truth in that Michael is more powerful than God!Castiel. We have absolutely nothing to go on other than Castiel's fear of him. On the other hand, we have plenty to go on in how God!Castiel is more powerful than Michael. I highly doubt that power scale between Michael and Raphael is large enough that Michael can kill Raphael that easily with a snap of the fingers. Raphael did the exact same thing to Castiel at the end of season 4 in Chuck's house. So when you say that Michael is more powerful than Castiel on Purgatory souls, it indirectly means that the power scale of Michael and Raphael is the same as the power scale between Raphael and normal powered Castiel. Do you see how illogical that is? Michael and Raphael are in the same class, the Archangels. To have their power scale so radically different is ridiculous when they're in the same order. That's like saying Anna is far superior to the lower members of her garrison like Hester and Inias. This clearly isn't true at all. Seriously, think long and hard about it and you'll realize how stupid the idea that Michael is that more powerful than Raphael. Michael can still kick his brother's ass any day but I highly doubt he could snap his fingers and explode Raphael. Lucifer didn't do that either when Gabriel was threatening him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:19, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I do see what you're saying, but are you suggesting I don't what I'm talking about? In lore, Michael is defined as Who is Like God (however that cannot be, since no one possessed the power that God does); no other Angel has a title remotely that relative. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:46 PM, September 29th 2012


 * I am suggesting that your belief in Michael being stronger than God!Castiel which translates to Michael and Raphael's scale of power reflects the power scale between Raphael and Castiel being the same is illogical to the point of absurdity. There is no way that Michael can snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. Real lore doesn't mean a damn thing in the Supernatural Universe. No one is like God and the only being that comes closest is Death. There is absolutely no possibility that Michael can defeat Castiel in any way whatsoever when Castiel was strengthened on souls in terms of raw power. Real lore no longer applies to Supernatural when the writers have changed it. And isn't exactly relevant to the argument here at all. Michael is naturally the 3rd most powerful being in the entire universe, with the Leviathans being the most resistant of God's creations. That's the only way he would be considered like God in the Supernatural Universe. Castiel took Michael's spot at the 3rd most powerful being when he was made into a mutated angel. You have failed to provide evidence within the show itself that Michael is more powerful than Castiel other than the latter's fear of him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:20, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I recall Castiel saying that Michael is much more powerful than Raphael. L4D2, you have failed to provide evidence that Michael can't snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. They have never had a feud in the show, therefore you can never know if Michael can do that. You have no proof whatsoever of Michael being unable to destroy Raphael with the snap of his fingers. Auditore7 (talk) 21:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * It is illogical to think that the power scale between Michael and Raphael is that great. Sure Michael is more powerful than Raphael but I highly doubt he can snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael so easily. Actually read my arguments and see why I think it's an absurd idea. I have provided evidence in what is shown in the show. It makes no sense for 2 angels in the same garrison to have a power scale that radically different from another. Raphael was able to obliterate Castiel at the end of season 4 because of their logical power scales. Castiel being on one of the lowest with Raphael being at the highest. Saying that Michael is so much more powerful compared to Raphael is ridiculous. Should they really be grouped together when their level of powers are on opposite ends of the scale? I think not. It would still make sense for Raphael to be the weakest Archangel but not to the point where he's nothing compared to Michael.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:57, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * While your assumptions are reasonable, you must accept that Michael is in fact much, much more powerful than Raphael. We have agreed here that the power scale of the Archagels is Michael>Lucifer>Raphael>Gabriel, right? Well it has been made clear that Lucifer is quite more powerful than Raphael or Gabriel as Gabriel got killed by Lucifer with ease and Raphael didn't even think of oposing him. Also it has been reasoned that Michael is more powerful than Lucifer. So reasonably in the best case scenario, in which the Archangels powers are consistantly increasing, Michael would be twice as powerful as Raphael. However that is unlikely, as it seems there's a gap of power between Raphael and Lucifer, the latter being quite more powerful. Then Michael being, by a little or much, more powerful than Lucifer, it isn't hard to see that Michael would be immensly more powerful than Raphael. As for the garrison thing, for me it seems as if the Archangels are in two groups by two, Gabriel, Raphael and Lucifer, Michael, the latter exponentially more powerful. For God!Castiel, I would wager he stands somewhere between Lucifer and Michael on the power scale, however even if he was, in some way more powerful than Michael (which he clearly isn't) God!Castiel cannot be taken as God's creation as Castiel brought himself to that power by absorbing the souls, rather than God creating him with that power. Auditore7 (talk) 11:46, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm leaning towards agreeing with L4D2 Ellis on this. While there is no proof that Michael cannot destroy Raphael with a snap of his fingers, there is also no proof that he can. There is also some validity in L4D2 Ellis's inductive reasoning of how much each Archangel's 'power levels' can vary, but again, it's not conclusive. That being said, I should think it would be best if we remove the statement completely. While we cannot necessarily prove that he isn't the third most powerful being in the universe (even if some evidence pointing towards this), it still is a disputable statement that is open to speculation. Given that it lacks hard evidence/fact to support it, and that the burden of proof is on the provision of this evidence in order to include this statement, the only thing we can do is remove this highly-questionable statement from the article. Calebchiam Talk 13:37, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, we could always include a small paragraph stating the above-two schools of thought regarding Michael's power level, with no bias towards either. Calebchiam Talk 13:44, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I was, setting another point: even if God!Castiel is more powerful than Michael, he is not God's creation and as such cannot displace Michael from his position of 'Most powerful creation of God'. Auditore7 (talk) 16:49, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * While I'm not disagreeing that Michael could be twice as strong as Raphael, as he easily could be, what I'm disagreeing with is that Michael is so much more powerful than Raphael in that he could snap his fingers and obliterate a fellow Archangels who is in the same class as himself. I doubt you can kill someone that easily if you're twice as powerful as another. As I said before, the power scale of Michael and Raphael would be the same as Raphael and Castiel if we go with Michael being able to kill his Archangel brother with a snap of his fingers. It's significantly more than twice the power. I find that wide power margin illogical for 2 angels who are in the same garrison. Michael is more powerful than Raphael, that is a known fact, but not to the point both you and ImperixSeed would like to think.
 * Lucifer was only able to kill Gabriel easily because he knew every single one of his brother's tricks. Lucifer had the upper hand through wit. If it were a fight using only magic, Gabriel would be able to match Lucifer for a while but ultimately, he would be killed as Lucifer is stronger. And I don't believe Michael is much more powerful than Lucifer either. He would ultimately win in a fight between the 2 of them, but Lucifer was confident that he could defeat Michael, hinting that their power differences isn't much.
 * As for the Archangel power scale, I think it's more Michael>Lucifer>Gabriel>Raphael. The way the three brothers talked about their fights and no mention of Raphael, makes it seem like Raphael was the youngest and the ignored brother.
 * I highly doubt that God!Castiel is between the powers of Michael and Lucifer. As I reasoned before, it is highly illogical to the point of absurdity. If God!Castiel is between the power scale of Michael and Lucifer, it again translates to Michael being able to snap his fingers and obliterate Raphael. This I just refuse to accept when I think about it logically. And I only meant that God!Castiel being the 3rd more powerful being in general. Naturally by creation, Michael is the 3rd most powerful being and God's most powerful creation.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:06, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

All THEROIES based off opinions of myself, from what has been hinted and said. As to where Michael falls into power, I would say that he is God's most powerful angel and Archangel. Yes, Lucifer is weaker, but not like from Michael to Uriel in that range. After all they had to battle which would result in immense and I mean immense damage to the Earth. And Lucifer even said they mostly likely kill each other in Swan Dive. Now, before we go all into the Leviathan thing. I am OPEN to the theory that like regular angels, they are immune to angelic power from the Archangels. However, as neither is state or hinted really toward the Archangels we do not know for sure. (After, Castiel's vessal was decaying or melting as Death said from the Leviathans inside while he had million of souls inside.)

As to Michael when compared to Soul Powered Castiel or Godstiel. We don't know for sure, yes one comment makes people think he was saying that he was weaker than Michael. HOWEVER, right before that he told Crowley in regard toward Hells, he would have done away with it completely. (Now he could have meant destroy or shut down. But if he meant the first one, that takes power to destroy a spiritual world. Now I am open to that Michael could have done the same as well. But, yes it would be up to the writers to make a better story for the two Archangel brothers to fight, than just have Michael destroy all of Hell to get to Lucifer.) Now, back to Godstiel. It's hard to take into account, which comments hold more weight. But, I remember that Balthazar said to Castiel that taking in 30-40 million souls from Purgatory it would most likely take out Castiel and haft the planet too. Now if Lucifer and Michael's final battle, which would be the collective force of their total overall strength destroy the Earth. It would make more logically sense, in my opinion that a being with energy or a power source that can do identical damage at base level might be stronger.

After, all the souls by this theory would just be absorbed and released. They wouldn't be harnessed to their full power. Like a real supernatural atomic bomb. Meaning, 30-40 million souls are like the raw material that can make damage comparible to Lucifer and Michael's final battle. Now image that power correctly used and profound to max strength. Now maybe Castiel, didn't know HOW to use it yet correctly. But sigils didn't hide Crowley from him, and even Lucifer and Michael cannot sense where Sam and Dean were with the Sigils on their ribcages. As Castiel found them with Death. (At the same time, he could have just sensed Death or Bobby and guessed that Sam and Dean were with them.) Back to using it the power correctly, after all, if he did he would have stopped the Leviathans from destroying his Vessal aka Jimmy himself. Again all this is theories.

Final point. Michael is God most powerful individual Angel, Archangel, and being to date that HE created. Once and if the Leviathan's angelic power immunity is completely understand than we will know for sure. As for Castiel or Godstiel against Michael. My opinion is and has been this, he was or at least had power least equal to Michael or to some degree above him. And regardless if he couldn't or could have killed Michael. Who is say that the Earth wouldn't get damage. Or even if his powers were much greater at this time, whom is to say that Castiel even KNEW how to kill Michael? You could the greatest, oldest, strongest, power in all of creation and if you don't know how to use, or at least completely. Than it might be harder to do feats that surpass, healing a blind man, killing a Revent at a church, etc.

Again, ALL THEROIES.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:39, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I think this issue could be thought of as this: a child (Castiel with or without souls) is obviously weaker than a pro athlete (Michael or Raphael). But give a kid a gun and an athlete is powerless. Castiel had the specific power to accelerate molecules to the point of combustion. In the grand scheme of things, Castiel, given his statement, may not have had the power to just overpower Michael without that specific power. This means that Michael isn't finger snappingly stronger than Raphael. SilverRain (talk) 03:48, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Okay I think I'll get involved in this discusion if no one minds, my point is, although I personally agree with ImperiexSeed and belive that Michael is that powerful, I find myself Leaning towards Calebchiam's idea, that we simply remove the sentance. I disagree with it, Michael is the strongest, even if Godstiel was stronger, which he wouldn't be or else he wouldn't fear Michael, it wouldn't count as the souls giving him his power, were Eve's creations not Gods. Also I have to ask why your so sceptical Michael is that strong? The guys practically omonipotant, one no occasion could Lucifer not do what he attempted, regardless of the task, and everyone agreed Michael could eat Lucifer for breakfast. I also question your statment, if it was pure power, Gabriel would have held his own for a while. Lucifer overpowered him, without even breaking a sweat, he was able to hold him in place with abasloutly no difficulty, and Gabriel is generally accepted as the weakest of the four. Also I find your argument that just because there both Archangels they should have similiar powers flawed, Both Famine and Death are horsemen, and there power levels are phernomally different, both Kali and Genesh are hindu gods, and there power levels aren't even close, being the same species doesn't mean your similiar in power. And I question why you think that Michael couldn't be so powerful, Gabriel was clearly terrified of Lucifer. But by and large, this is all to much effot and fan theories, so I'm sticking to Calebchiam's idea. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:43, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

I am in favor with Calebchiam's suggestion to remove the statement entirely as well. 108.247.147.4222:07, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Just because you fear something, doesn't always make them stronger. Some people are afraid of mice, does that make mice stronger? No. I believe Castiel's supposed fear of Michael was just irrational, much like his irrational belief that he could take on Death himself. Also to bring up, Ruby feared Alistair more than she feared Lilith who was Hell's most powerful demon.

Everyone agreed that Michael would defeat Lucifer, not that he could eat him for breakfast. And as I said before, Lucifer only overpowered Gabriel through pure wit. He knew what Gabriel was up to and killed Gabriel with physical strength. He used absolutely no magic at all. On the other hand, Gabriel did and was able to toss Lucifer across the room. Not so weak now is he?

The Horsemen are physical manifestations of what they represent, of course their powers are going to be dramatically different. The Horsmen aren't a species like angels are, they are just a title of what they call themselves as a group. Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel and Raphael are all the same, just with different jobs/occupations and slightly different powers. You also can't compare Hindu Gods with angels. Hindu Gods don't have hierarchies like angels do. Both Castiel and Michael are angels yet their powers differ greatly. Same species but in different groups. All 4 Archangels are in the same group, the highest order of angel so they all should have very similar powers. Castiel and his garrison should have similar powers. They're all the same species but in different groups based on similarties they have when created. To have Michael be so radically different from the other 3 angels he's grouped into is in my opinion, stupid.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:09, September 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a bit late but I would just like to leave this reminder that Raphael himself said 'If anyone is going to be the new God, it's me.' This hints that absorbing that much souls will elevate a being to the level of God, not just an archangel. Also note that Raphael's statement if anyone was completely neutral. Nevermind that one of the candidates was just a demon, and that he will only receive half of the souls (given Raphael will stand by the deal), it still gives them incredible amounts of power.


 * And seeing as Castiel is now canonically a seraph (most likely when God improved him post Swan Song), it isn't that much of a stretch that he could actually reach levels beyond the archangels. Sure, Death called him a mutated angel but that doesn't take away the fact that he was powerful and it took the collective efforts of the Leviathan inside him before he was overpowered.


 * Michael is without a doubt the most powerful angel or archangel. That doesn't mean other beings could elevate themselves above the four.


 * Just playing the advocate here, but I think L4D2 Elis's logic is more sound. Godstiel is unaffected by any of the common angelic weaknesses, whereas Michael is. Godstiel completely obliterated the third most powerful archangel in existence with just a snap of his fingers. Because Castiel is no longer an angel, regardless of which angel class he came from. Also, friendly reminder that Godstiel had all of heaven's weapons under his belt, in addition to the souls.


 * FTWinchester (talk) 13:27, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with what you've said. Not only that, Raphael is an Archangel already so he should be more powerful with the souls and his powers should exceed those of his brother Michael.
 * And thank you for agreeing with my logic. One of the few times people actually do. It makes no sense for people to think that no one can be above Michael other than his own father and Death. When Castiel became Godstiel, Death showed that there is an immense power difference between the Archangels and himself. It basically leaves a possibility that someone can be that much more powerful than Michael. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:01, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude, I'm not just going to agree with you. It's easy to assume Michael couldn't simply just snap his fingers, and kill Raphael. But, as his older brother, he is definitely stronger than him. In "The Song Remains the Same", he snapped his fingers and "yanked" Uriel from his vessel, and sent him back to Heaven. But, in "Free To Be You And Me", Castiel did say Michael's much stronger than Raphael. Anywho, I do think that Castiel, while wiedling all of Purgatory's souls was stronger than Michael, but that Michael possessed the potential to actually harm him. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:16 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * Surprised ImperiexSeed, I thought you always thought Lucifer and or at least Michael was stronger than Godstiel. But, while I do agree that Castiel was stronger than Michael interms of strength, it still doesn't mean that he could have killed Michael like he did to Rapheal, or that Michael couldn't have killed or harmed him. But as the series never stated otherwise it should be written unbias to where either or case is possible.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 17:30, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

"But I say, let's look at the fact. God and Death come first, obviously. And seeing as Castiel is scared of Michael after absorbing all of Purgatory's souls, he has to come next." "Michael likely could not just, say, snap his fingers and kill Cas while he absorbed the souls, but I am say he'd ultimately win." "Truth of the matter is, Michael is more powerful than Castiel after he absorbed all of Purgatory's souls." Now you're saying that Michael can't kill Godstiel and is now weaker? Who are you trying to fool? You were fucking adament about your opinion to the point of idiocy. Seriously. Read through my entire debate against you. I never once said that Michael could snap his fingers and explode Raphael. It was you, General Mod and Auditore7 who did. I have always maintained that Michael is more powerful than Raphael just not to the point where you 3 believed.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:44, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * What a fucking liar you are. You never once believed that Castiel on Purgatory souls was more powerful than Michael. Need I quote this,
 * No need for foul language. I'm not lying, when I simply changed by perspective. Apparently, I'm so-called "arrogant", but yet you call me an idiot and resort to swearing to establish your point. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:21 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * Hard not to when I'm dealing with you. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:24, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * What a child. And what a vain and stubborn boy, but whatever. What's your problem with me, anyway? Let me tell you something, there was a petition a while ago whether or not I should be demoted, and you know what, the majority said I should remain an admin. So there. And you mentioned something about my profile banner, I say "I Am "the guy who's always right" as a joke. I'm really getting sick and tired of you. Continue using profanity, and I'll have you blocked. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:43 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * Like you are so much better. The ones who decided you should remain an admin, I have doubts on what they saw. You leave speculation up on pages and later lock them so they couldn't be edited when they should be. Especially God and Death's pages. Just because you think God could kill/harm Death, you decided to leave it up. It wasn't until other admin had to come in an intervene before you decided to leave it alone. And I am just as sick and tired of you when you leave speculation up and state your personal opinion as if it were fact. That's my problem with you. You basically abused your admin role because people had logical arguments against information on certain pages but you leave said pages locked because it didn't agree with your views. That's why I liked when Calebchiam intervened because he actually looks at both sides of the arguments and came to the conclusion that speculative information should be removed when neither side could win. If you were like that in the first place I wouldn't have as big as a problem with you.

L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:02, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I say this as someone who is willing to give a second chance, ImperiexSeed, please be more respectful to other users. The petition to desynop you may have been defeated, but that does not mean it will never be reopened if go too to far with your rudeness or what could be considered as a misuse of your admin rights again. I must remind you that an admin is not an authority, he/she is an equal to other users. 107.194.27.114 19:21, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I can't see how you think Death' stronger. God's above EVERYTHING as said in the Bible. And per "I Believe the Children are Our future", the Bible exists in the Supernatural universe, so that would in turn mean, God > Death. Plus, Death was incarcerated by the Host of Heaven, which may implicate that together, Death cane restrained. This seems to prove that God possesses authority over him. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:57 PM, November 2nd 2012'


 * I have never believed that Death is stronger, just that he can kill God. And really you're citing the Bible as your source? Remember Castiel saying that the Bible gets more wrong than it does right? The Leviathans were killed in the Bible, Purgatory is where souls go when sins are not bad enough for Hell. Really, citing the Bible? Look how much the show has changed from real lore and yet your citing the Bible? That just shows your desperate attempt to be right using the worst kind of argument. You are again showing your bias and believing you are right. Nobody knows why Death was chained 600 feet down. All Bobby said is that he was chained there and the last time they hauled him up was during the Great Flood. Just because the angels pulled him up doesn't mean they put him down. God is supposedly omniscient, yet according to Death neither remembers who is older. God is also supposedly omnipresent but no angel can find him. God is supposedly immortal yet his own son, Raphael, believes him to be dead which is later reinforced by Death's statement that he's able to reap God. You haven't a single evidence of proof other than your wild speculation that goes against what is shown on TV. Until stated otherwise I use speculation to fit what is in the show, not come up with reasons that show otherwise. Unless canon says otherwise, we should stick with what we know. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it true, neither does it make it right. It's speculation that also goes in the opposite direction. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:29, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I am full agreement with you, 4D2 Ellis, the Bible has absolutely no bearing in Supernatural, aside from what writers and producers decide to incorperate into the series. 107.194.27.114 21:38, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * ::::::And what, you think Death can kill God with a tap? Cause that's utter bogus. At the time of that comment, Death didn't kill God but merely said that he's capable of doing so, which is total bulls***. He'll said in the end "I'll reap him too" yet after the Apocalypse (The End), God is alive and well. It's indicated it's 'The End' on Chuck's computer. Yes, I question the knowledge of Death. He's been mistaken on multiple occasion, deeming him untrustworthy. He inaccurately assumed that they bound him because of Sam's hallucinations which was incorrect. He says Leviathan don't have souls, yet the go to Purgatory after death. So obviously God bears more knowledge seeing as, apparently according to Death, the only thing he can't remember is his age (which I find completely inaccurate). -- ImperiexSeed, 4:48 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * He never specified what "The End" meant. Now you're just getting desperate. The Apocalypse is the end of the human race which is insignificant to Death. His end would be the absolute end.
 * Death has never said that Leviathans don't have souls. He said that long before God created angel and man the Leviathans were created. Nothing about souls. And how do you know that God bears more knowledge? He has never made an appearance, and don't say it was Chuck because there's no abosolute canon on that. There are conflicting information about that between Sera Gamble's interviews and later ones. And the only reason you find Death being unable to remember their ages as inaccurate is because of your bias. There is no supporting evidence to prove otherwise. It's funny how you deem Death's words untrustworthy yet freely use the Bible as your source for your argument. Again your bias is showing and you're throwing a tantrum because I'm not seeing it your way due to your poor arguments. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:03, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * You apparently missed a piece of that quote. what he said was, "There are things much older than souls in Purgatory, and you gulped those in too", noting the Leviathan. And quite personally, I saw Sera Gamble as a terrible writer, and Eric Kripke said that in the Season Five finale, God would appear in some way, and also, in a Youtube video, Rob Benidict got interviewed about playing God. Um, I'm not the one who said, "And thank you for agreeing with my logic. One of the few times people actually do. It makes no sense for people to think that no one can be above Michael other than his own father and Death. When Castiel became Godstiel, Death showed that there is an immense power difference between the Archangels and himself. It basically leaves a possibility that someone can be that much more powerful than Michael." So quite clearly, you yearn for people agreeing with your bologna. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:41 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * L4D2 Ellis makes a valid point, Death indeed never specified what "The End" meant. As far as we know he could have been referring to the end of literally everything in existence, besically the universe and anything beyond. 107.194.27.114 22:10, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just because Leviathans are older than souls doesn't mean that they can't go to Purgatory when they die. Death never said that they don't go anywhere when they die.
 * And so what if you think Sera Gamble is a terrible writer, she was still a writer on the show and was there for years. She may have been terrible but she was able to replace Eric Kripke as the show runner for the show.
 * And my so called "bologna" is more logically thought out than yours. How do you like them apples? I already have 2 people agreeing with me one being an admin himself and I agreed with his decision to leave speculation off of the official pages. You on the other hand act like a vain child, which you accused me of, by locking a page because you didn't like the edit wars. Abuse of power as an admin because it didn't agree with your views. Who's the actual childish one? You're not any better ImperiexSeed L4D2 Ellis (talk) 23:01, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Using my own words against me? How credible. No, he didn't say where they go, but as being without a soul, how they go anywhere upon death? Like the Angel situation, when the die, they simply vanish from existence. Ok, so you may have more supporters than myself, as you would say, "that doesn't make you any better than I". You persistently tell me I'm no better but yet you keep trying to prove that you are. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:56 PM, November 2nd 2012


 * Like you didn't use my quotes against me. And the Leviathans must have something for them to end up in Purgatory when they die. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:08, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Logic is entirely opinion based upon mere education, pure logic can not be argued with or disproven. Alertfiend (talk) 01:31, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Here's my take. Michael was said to be FAR more powerful than Raphael. Not MUCH more. *FAR MORE*. The whole premise of season 5 is for heaven to kill Lucifer AT ALL COSTS. If Raphael mattered in any way to help kill Lucifer, he would have helped Michael by double-teaming Lucifer. But since that's not the case then it stands to reason that Raphael is so weak that he contributes nothing in helping Michael taking down Lucifer except for helping him to get Dean to say yes. That's all Raphael can do to help with Michael. This leads me to believe that Michael can finger-snap Raphael to oblivion. I think Michael, Lucifer and Mutated Cas are in the same tier of power. John432 (talk) 21:14, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

It was also said that it was destined for Michael and Lucifer to fight. If they needed to kill Lucifer at all costs, the angels should've bound Death and had him kill Lucifer. No fight, just a simple touch and Lucifer would be dead in less than a second. It makes absolutely no sense for Archangels being in the same category would have a power scale that different. For all we know, the angels were just exaggerating Michael's powers. He is after all the most powerful of the angels. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:29, November 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * I beg to disagree, John432. Just because Raphael isn't taking part in the frontline doesn't mean he can't. Raphael is a fundamentalist. He isn't helping in the actual battle with Lucifer because it was not his role in the scripture. I'm pretty sure he could hold his own against Lucifer, albeit eventually ending up losing.


 * If a seraph with just 50,000 souls can stand up to an archangel, is it really that hard to imagine a seraph with millions of souls and all of heaven's weapons overpowering any archangel? Lot's salt alone decimated Raphael's vessel such that the archangel could not just resurrect him, but instead have to find a new one. That is just one heavenly weapon under Godstiel's belt. Michael is still susceptible to common angelic weaknesses, whereas Godstiel wasn't. FTWinchester (talk) 21:53, November 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was destined for Michael and Lucifer to fight because they are the two most strongest angels of them all. No one on Heaven's side can hang with them. Zachariah mentioned that only Michael can take Lucifer on. Raphael didn't want to get involved because he is no where near as powerful as the top two archangels. He is useless to Michael on the frontlines and he knows it. If he were anywhere near the ballpark in Michael and Lucifer's power level tier, he would have joined in the fight. Look how Michael reacted to the holy oil molotov,  it merely banished him for five minutes.   And look how Lucifer reacted to the Colt.   He's immune to it and that was in his temporary vessel Nick.  Lucifer also crushed all the pagan gods singlehandedly and over-rided their powers and spells. Gabriel is shown to be about as powerful as one of the top Pagan Gods.  Not all of them combined.  Both Raphael and Gabriel were contained by the holy oil fire circle because they knew they'd instantly die if they touched it. And I doubt they are immune to the Colt. There is a huge wide gap between the two oldest archangels, Michael and Lucifer, and the two youngest archangels, Raphael and Gabriel.John432 (talk) 01:19, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Being the two most powerful angels and it was only them who were supposed to fight. If Heaven really wanted Lucifer dead "at all costs" as you say, they would've bound Death before Lucifer did so there wouldn't have been an earth shattering battle. Or since Lucifer wanted to win so badly, he should've had Death kill Michael. No one joined in the fight because they weren't supposed to. Angels are a stickler for Destiny and all that.


 * Lucifer didn't kill the Pagan Gods all at once. He still had to kill them one by one. Not as powerful as you're implying. And Gabriel managed to telekinetically push Lucifer into another room. Kali had no effect on Lucifer and she seemed to be the most powerful of the Pagon Gods. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 01:57, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Five minutes banished or shorter, the fact remains he is not immune to BASIC angelic weaknesses, whereas Godstiel was. That alone speaks volumes. Godstiel has transcended the limitations of any angel. And Rapahel not joining the battle because he wasn't supposed to has water in it, look at L4D2's logic. They could easily use death to pawn each other if they really needed each other dead. We have canon proof that they could--Heaven released Death during Noah's time, and Lucifer also bound Death to his will. So if the angels desperately needed Lucifer dead, why just rely with Michael?


 * Where was it shown that Gabriel was only as powerful as the top pagan gods? He never even tried fighting them. What we actually have is Gabriel showing the potential to stand his ground against Lucifer (something not even the most powerful pagan god came close to), albeit losing immediately only because it was Lucifer who taught Gabriel everything about his tricks/tactics.


 * So, anybody thinking the power gap between Lucifer and Raphael/Gabriel is so huge, please tell me why Lucifer had to use Gabriel's archangel blade against him instead of just snapping his fingers to obliterate his younger brother?


 * Immunity to the colt isn't comparable here, as we did not even have an instance when it was used on Godstiel, and you can't say for sure that Raphael and Gabriel could be killed by it. For all we know, the five things in creation could be according to species, and not as an individual.


 * And if we're really going to talk about vessels here, Nick started decaying for months, and Sam, being the proper vessel, will not deteriorate when holding Lucifer. How about Jimmy Novak being Castiel's proper vessel and degrading in just a matter of hours? FTWinchester (talk) 02:19, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Your logic is very faulty.


 * Mutated Cas, Not 'Godstiel'. He had Leviathans in him, that's why he is immune to angel weaknesses. I already mentioned why they didn't use Death. Look at what Cas said: "We need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage." This means he is in the same tier as Michael and Lucifer. Maybe at best slightly stronger.


 * When Dean threatened Gabriel with exposing him to the pagans. Gabriel threatened Dean back with maiming him in some ways. This indicates he cannot take on the entire 'god squad' the way lucifer did. Also Kali affected Gabriel with a blood spell.


 * And didn't you watch the scene with Lucifer and Gabriel??? Lucifer clearly didn't want to kill Gabriel at all he pleaded with him, even begged him not to go through with what he was doing. To which Gabriel replied: "No one makes us do anything." Like you said Lucifer knew all his tricks and practically saw it coming a mile away. It was too predicatable to him. Lucifer's own words: "amateur hocus pocus, don't forget little brother, you learned all your tricks from me." To which for the first and only time we have actually seen Lucifer cry over his death. Mourning.


 * Here is exactly what Lucifer said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *I* happen to be one of them." Which exactly, clearly means Lucifer fills an entire slot. If he meant species, then he would of said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *ARCHANGELS*  happen to be one of them. He didn't say that did he? No, he didn't. We take his statement literally at face value unless there is any hint of contrary evidence otherwise. And there was none. So Lucifer fills an entire slot. Case closed. God, Death, and Michael are on the list because all three are more powerful than he is.


 * I have no idea what you're saying about Jimmy Novak.John432 (talk) 03:00, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Mutated Cas, Not 'Godstiel'. He had Leviathans in him, that's why he is immune to angel weaknesses.
 * I almost stopped reading right there. If we are to separate Castiel from everything he has absorbed from Purgatory and the weapons vault of heaven, then there really is no point for this debate, isn't there? And Godstiel/Mutated Cas really is just choice of words.
 * "We need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage."
 * So the apocalypse doesn't restart--exactly Castiel's point why he waged a civil war. Why bother killing them when they are safely incapacitated by the cage?
 * When Dean threatened Gabriel with exposing him to the pagans. Gabriel threatened Dean back with maiming him in some ways. This indicates he cannot take on the entire 'god squad' the way lucifer did.
 * Gabriel had plans on talking the gods out of it, or at the very least, saving Kali BUT under the guise of a pagan god. He doesn't want to botch up the already dangerous scenario, which would be a definite yes if the gods knew who Gabriel really was.
 * Also Kali affected Gabriel with a blood spell.
 * And this would indicate Lucifer could not be bound as well, how?
 * And didn't you watch the scene with Lucifer and Gabriel??? Lucifer clearly didn't want to kill Gabriel at all he pleaded with him, even begged him not to go through with what he was doing.
 * Yes, but that's not exactly the point here. We are talking about Lucifer's method of attack, regardless of his disposition in killing his little brother.
 * Here is exactly what Lucifer said: "There are five things in all of creation that gun can't kill and *I* happen to be one of them."
 * Given that, why did you suggest earlier Raphael and Gabriel aren't part of that list?
 * We take his statement literally at face value unless there is any hint of contrary evidence otherwise.
 * You think there is no contrary evidence? Leviathans (plural form, by the way, if we stick to individual counts), Eve, the horsemen, etc.
 * I have no idea what you're saying about Jimmy Novak.
 * Jimmy Novak deteriorating in a matter of hours after Castiel absorbed all the souls from Purgatory.
 * FTWinchester (talk) 03:20, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Why not step in to the cage and Kill both Michael and Lucifer to permanently end the threat of the apocalyplse once and for all? You do know that Michael and Raphael are on the same side, right? Cas went through thick and thin to desperately find a way to stop Raph, which he did. He went through all that trouble to kill Raphael. Why would he show any bit of mercy for Michael and Lucifer if he was beyond them? For all the sacrifices and troubles he has went through, and for all the risks he has taken to stop the apocalypse.


 * Lucifer butchered the pagans mercilessly. effortlessly like they were nothing to him. He prevented them from teleporting. Seeing what he has done to them, that blood spell would have no effect on him. If it were that easy, they were more than capable of hexing him or using any spell in their arsenal against him in preparation. They are Gods after all. If it were that easy, they would never have held a meeting in the first place in the Eulaysian hotel. The sole purpose of that meeting was to figure out some desperate way to stop Michael and Lucifer - which was capturing the Winchesters, the true vessels. Their supposed ace-in-the-hole in that meeting was getting the archangel's blade from Gabriel. The pagans thought they lucked out. Turns out that blade was made from a soda can. The episode "hammer of the gods" major premise was that the pagans didn't possess the power to stop Michael and Lucifer. They had to come up with a plan to figure out the top archangel's weaknesses. Since clearly the pagan's powers have no effect on Michael and Lucifer. As Lucifer in Gabe's words "turn them into fingerpaint."


 * The five things still stand because the other three horsemen can die. So can Eve. So can Leviathans. Lucifer didn't flat out lie. His statement was literal and exact. Only God, Death, and Michael are stronger than him. They are the only ones who can kill him. And that's why they are on that list. The fifth thing on that list I think is very highly likely Metatron. Since he is not only an archangel, but is also primordial as well. Since according to Cas: "He wrote down dictation when Creation was being formed." Creation simply means all of what God has created. Since God created the entire Supernatural universe, this means Creation means universe. Metatron is older than the Leviathans. Because not even they can read the tablets.


 * So the list is:
 * God
 * Death
 * Michael
 * Lucifer
 * Metatron


 * Castiel detriorating in his true vessel ,Jimmy, because of all the Leviathans in him that are powering their way up out "under the weight of all those souls" using Death's words. The Leviathans are by definition, magical cyanide to an angel. Without those 30-40 million souls, Cas instantly died within a minute. With those souls he held out for over a week until he was burning up because of the leviathans. What are you trying to prove here? Nothing.John432 (talk) 04:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you just eliminate my posts? You do know that you're not allowed to do that right?
 * Creation does not mean the universe. God isn't part of creation, he created it in the first place. Death is not a part of creation as he existed alongside God. It's unlikely that Metatron is older than the Leviathans as Death said, "Long before God created angel and man, he made the first beasts. The Leviathans."
 * L4D2 Ellis (talk) 04:25, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I didn't erase your posts. Why would I? How do you do that? If I did, it was probably a mistake.


 * Creation does mean universe because God "created" the universe. Whatever God created is part of Creation. Just because God and Death pre-date Creation, it doesn't mean they are not part of it. They choose to be in it, so obviously, they are a part of it. Cas said: "He took down dictation when Creation was being formed." So this means Metatron has been with God since the beginning of Creation. Which makes him older than the Leviathans.


 * There has been a clear delineation between Archangels and angels. The four, who I now think are five including Metatron, archangels have seen God's true visage. Only other being that saw God's true form was Death. And he's around as old as God. Being close to God at that level strongly indicates age.John432 (talk) 04:49, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * John, your argument on Lucifer vs. the pagans is really taking things off tangent here, I'm not even sure anymore if you are pointing out Lucifer vs. the pagans, or the pagans vs. Gabriel anymore. I will agree with you that Lucifer is superior to all the pagans but I can't see how it directly supports the theory that Lucifer and Michael are comparably stronger than Godstiel. L4D2 and I were just pointing out the youngest archangel showed potential to fight Lucifer, and therefore that the gaps among the four archangels aren't sky-high, and a lot of unrelated arguments sprang from it. And friendly reminder that a pagan betrayed the group to Lucifer, allowing him to easily break through whatever defenses they may have placed earlier, if there were any.


 * Eve and the leviathans did and could die. But did they die by the colt? Come on, man. You are changing topics here. A lot of your arguments are red herring. I am trying so hard to restrain myself right now. I wasn't the one who dragged the 'vessel' argument here, I just rode your wave. And then you say you don't see the point. Let me explain to you--the entity I call Godstiel was so powerful it deteriorated even Castiel's proper vessel in just a matter of hours, as opposed to Lucifer causing Nick to deteriorate over the course of several months, and not at all if Lucifer is in his proper vessel. So if you don't understand my point on this 'vessel' argument, then let's just drop the case; nevermind that the argument was trumped in favor of Godstiel.


 * Again, you continue to separate Castiel from what powered him up to be Godstiel, whether the souls, the weapons or the leviathans. You are simply taking Castiel as he is, and then pitting him against Michael and/or Lucifer. I see no more point arguing--the archangels win. But we were talking about the holistic entity comprised of the seraph, all of heaven's weapons, the millions of souls and the leviathans, NOT JUST CASTIEL. FTWinchester (talk) 04:58, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do understand. Godstiel, as you would like to call him, was burning up rapidly alot faster than Lucifer in Nick's body not because he was a boatload more powerful than Michael and Lucifer. It's because the Leviathans in him are rapidly accelerating through the millions of souls in his vessel.. The Leviathans were causing Cas to burn up. Not the souls. So you bringing this up proves nothing. It doesn't mean Godstiel is so much far more powerful than Michael and Lucifer. It means the leviathans are causing Cas to explode. They are literally magical poison. They did not provide any power to Cas. They are added living toxic buildup underneath those souls. This is so self-evident in the season 7 premiere.


 * You do know that the Leviathans are essentially magical kryptonite to angels, do you? They're magical living cyanide.


 * And possessing only all of heaven's weapons wasn't enough to kill or permanently stop Raphael. If so, then why would he need the souls? If he can't stop Raphael with them, he won't stop Michael and Lucifer.


 * I never said Michael and Lucifer are far more powerful than Godstiel. I said they are in the same tier. With the possibility that Godstiel is only slightly stronger than them that it doesn't make any big difference at all between the three.John432 (talk) 05:18, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, then. I did not originally want to use the leviathans as included in the powers of Godstiel, but you were keen on indicating that they were the ones who provided Castiel with immunity to angelic weakness. Anyway, Castiel did threaten Raphael in The French Mistake to flee if the archangel did not want to die right then and there--which supports the point that he already could (but perhaps with some difficulty). I was just pointing out that Castiel did not only have the millions of souls, but he also had those weapons which undoubtedly could harm even archangels.


 * Personally I sitll believe Godstiel was more powerful than Michael or Lucifer, and that the power difference between the two are not so far from Raphael and Gabriel (meaning Michael can not just snap his fingers to cause Raphael to explode). I initially only added a response to the latter statement (power difference among the four archangels), this mole-hole argument seems to have become a mountain. And seeing as we really have no canon basis on whether the powers of the four are vastly or just slightly different, we may never be able to settle this. I do understand I also had a hand in prolonging this debate, so, sorry about that. FTWinchester (talk) 13:21, November 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * If I may interject, but John432 is technically incorrect in his statement, "Creation does mean the universe because God "created" the universe," as based on my research Creation actually refers to the creation of Earth in real world terminology, rather than the universe. In addition, while he may be correct from one point of view, I must point out that when Lucifer's actual words "in all of creation" are taken into account, it can also intrepreted as meaning the universe and everything that has ever been created within it, which seems to be how at least this wiki generally accepts it as. 108.225.237.95 09:50, November 17, 2012 (UTC)