Talk:Lilith

According to Wikipedia, there is a demon in Mesopotamian mythology named Lilith. It's spelled with one L, not two. So, I'm gonna change the name so it has just one L. It's also spelled with one L on the Wikipedia Supernatural page. Kyle Nin 15:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Powers and Abilities
Okay, so I have some issues with the following stuff under Powers and Abilities:

"Lilith was the oldest and most powerful demon. She out-ranked her fellow white-eyed demons Alastair and Samhain, as well as Azazel, in the hierarchy of Hell. Other demons either feared or revered her for her capabilities. However, when confronted by an archangel, she quickly fled." (My edit.) I know that Azazel vs. Lilith is a hot topic here (and, I assume, the rest of the fandom), but the Kripke statement that she out-ranks Azazel leads me to believe that she is stronger than him, she just didn't have as the opportunity to prove it, so I edited the article according to that interpretation of Word of Kripke. But if it doesn't sit right with you guys, just say the word and I'll edit it to something less flammatory.

"*Demonic Control - As the first of her kind, Lilith can exert a certain amount of control over lesser demons. For example she could take over a previously occupied host, as she was able to force Ruby out of her host and possess it herself, something no other demon has been shown to do." But we know that Lilith and Ruby were working together the whole time, so Lilith wouldn't have neededto force Ruby out of her vessel. Doesn't it make more sense to just assume that Ruby willingly gave up the body for Lilith to use, instead of assume that

"* It is also stated that she was able to flay Nancy, the secretary from the police station, using her telekinetic skills for forty-five minutes before killing her, thus showing great control and precision." Did Henriksen say that she used telekinesis for that or is that just people making stuff up? I don't remember hearing that from the show and I don't really want to look it up right now (I'm pretty much ready to drop dead of exhaustion, ready to hit the sack), so could someone else verify this?

"*Demonic Light -" Okay, so I know everybody assumes that it blows stuff up (which makes sense to me, because of the whole resemblance to an angelic attack) ... but she used it right away in the police station and Henriksen's ghost later said that she tortured everyone inside first for a length of time. Canonically, these things don't mesh. This was the only time this ability was used successfully on someone/something and it didn't even happen on-screen, so we don't actually know what it does. Should we debate what it does and put in our conclusion, or just note that it's ambiguous as to what it does, or...? (Personally, I suspect it might be time manipulation: she could've stretched out the time inside the station to torture people and her doing that and then destroying the building might account for why Sam says the explosion happened "right after we left". She and Samhain could've both been trying to just freeze Sam in place when they tried to use it on him. But that's a mite to speculately to add in.)

I may or may not be able to get back to you immediately (my college exams start next week, so I'm going crazy studying and keeping up with the work), but go ahead and discuss changes if you want, reach a consensus, and either I'll edit accordingly or one of you can. Well wishes, and thank you all in advance! 68.202.251.151 04:24, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

True Ruby could possibly have done this voluntarily but in order to fool the other demons Ruby would probably have to have been expelled and sent to hell, so for believability this may have actually happened. Henrikson doesn't specifically state Lilith used telekinesis. He says "The secretary was first, Nancy, the virgin. Lilith flayed nancy's skin off piece by piece. Made us watch. Nancy never stopped screaming." So though it's not stated she used her powers, it is some what implied as keeping someone alive for 45 mins while flaying them would be difficult plus for a demon it'd probably be easier to do so with telekinesis. And the fact she made multiple people watch implies she was somehow retraining and forcing numberous people at once. But it's up for debate. I guess the whole police station think could be that Lilith teleported her victims away as she destroyed the station and then went away and tortured them and killed them. Good points but I think it's debatable.

Rank
General, yes, she does outrank all other demons. What is uncertain (at least according to semantics, as some would point out) is her scale of power/ability against Azazel. Although, personally I believe that is no contest in favor of Lilith. FTWinchester (talk) 00:26, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying it needs to be worded differently, as it looks like your controdicting yourself. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:31, December 2, 2012 (UTC)

Knight of Hell
Ok, Grandaddy Winchester, reffered to the Knights of Hell as the firstborn demons, handpicked by Lucifer...well since Lilith is the very first demon, and she was created by Lucifer, doesn't she fit the discription? Darksusanoo (talk) 13:50, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing when I first heard about it. But seeing as the Archangels were supposed to have killed all of them, with Abbadon being the last of her kind, Liliith may not be one of the Knights. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:34, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

There's a good chance nobody knew about Lilith. She'd been buried in Hell for tens of thousand of years. Buried so deep, even Azazel couldn't free her without a Devil's Gate. So I don't think that Archangels supposably killing all of them disqualifies Lilith. KevinTheDestoryer (talk) 21:47, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody knew about her? She was the reason lucifer was put in his cage, so I think everyone knew about her, especially the archangels.


 * Touche, to who ever posted the comment above me. Whether or not Lilith was an actual Knight is not that important, as she could easily have been a class of her own. It is true, though, that all the descriptions fit her first and foremost, among all other demons. FTWinchester (talk) 22:27, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I doubt she was one, as Lilith was a white eyed demon, while the Knights of Hell have black eyes. Plus considering they were denouced as "hitmen" it can be taken that they are literally like actual knights, elite soldiers, but not the ruling castel. Plus Lilith was a lot more powerful than than Abaddon. And from the way they were discribing it, theres a good chance that there were more demons created after that point, Lilith was the first demon, but that doesn't mean she was the only one Lucifer personally made, he could presumably have made more before he was chucked in the cage. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:20, February 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what the Knights of Hell are: the firstborn, made by Lucifer himself... and being described as hitmen is more of a job discription, rather than a race classification...too bad they didn't give Abbadon white eyes instead of black ones, that would have been an excelent tie-in in regards to demon classification. Darksusanoo (talk) 08:35, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the term used was 'handpicked' by Lucifer. Abaddon having black-eyes may simply be because she was favored by Lucifer somehow and was given additional powers. Perhaps the eye color suggests innate strength, but not the actual level of power. Take Crowley for example, he still has red eyes because that is how he started but he is far more powerful now. FTWinchester (talk) 14:56, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think Crowley's all that more powerful. He still isn't resistant to holy water and tries to avoid Ruby's knife whenever possible. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:48, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I meant relative to how he began as a demon. FTWinchester (talk) 18:19, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Same. I still don't think he got an increase in power since becoming King of Hell. I still think he only got that position by being the last most powerful demon left.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:35, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, he's mearly a mid level buracrat whose grabbed power, because the winchesters have killed all his superiors, although I have to wonder what happened to Samhain. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:00, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Simple. Samhain was exorcised.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes back to hell, and he's obviously stronger than Crowley, and Crowley took over hell... I think you can see where I'm going with this. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:22, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * In which you forgot that Samhain was a special demon, so when he was exorcised, he more than likely was sent back to where he originally was. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:56, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * The bottom of the pit, so he couldn't get out again, arh I'm with you General MGD 109 (talk) 20:24, February 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * :To me when Harry used the words "firstborn", "handpicked" and "Lucifer" in the same sentence kinda implies a lot that Luci was the one who personally made the Knights...he did make Lilith, he rebeled, he made the first demon army to fight against the Heavens when God commanded Michael to cast him down...it would explain why the arcangels would even bother with killing demons, since apparently, the normal angels can't...too bad we couldn't see Cas going up against Abbadon. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:50, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

LILITH > AZAZEL
Ok, i know that with the majority of demons strength and rank don't necessarily go together but when sam describes the knights of hell he states that they are "very pure, very strong" implying that the purer the demon the stronger the demon, hence the knights being so strong. So by that logic cant it be assumed that lilith is both stronger and of higher rank than Azazel because kripke stated she was of higher rank and if we assume purity = strength then lilith should be the strongest demon as she is the first demon and the purist.

Maybe, but its still amost entirely speculation, the expression "Very pure, very strong" could equaly be interpreded as two different points, its made clear that one links to the other. Also we have to ask the question what exactly pureity means? its entirely speculation to say it one way or the other. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:55, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Presumably purity refers to their age and how much of a say lucifer had in creating them, so again lilith would be purer as the first demon. And while they could be two seperate points, the context in which they're stated implies otherwise.

True, buts its still nearly pure speculation either way, so it can't be used as fact. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:14, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith power?
Just had a thought. Can anyone explain to me how lilith killed her host's grandmother in "no rest for the wicked"? cause the body has no blood on it and the body's neck isnt broken and the only thing notacble about it is it's covered in flies. So if she didnt use super strength or telekinesis how the hell did she kill the old lady. biokinesis? any thoughts?

you don't need biokinesis to kill without leaving blood or snapping a neck (also how do you know sher neck wasn't snapped?) simple strangulation woyuld do it. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:09, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

sorry i looked again theres blood on her nose and a puddle of it next to her but theres no blood on her actual body (torso, neck ect) its weird. cause her neck isnt twisted and is in perfect corolation with her shoulders. im not saying its biokinesis im just confused to how she did it.

Not sure, possibly boke her nose and fractured her skull, then knowing Lilith I'm sure she has hundreds of inventive any highly painful ways to kill. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:48, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Does it even matter? Strangulation (as General MGD 109 suggested), Biokinesis, or Hell, she could've blown apart the victim's mind Telepathically. I, personally, think she used Biokinesis to kill the woman, but that's my opinion. There are soo many options - should could've wrecked the woman's kidneys, causing an instant, excruciating death, she couldv'e ruptured the woman's brain. In any case,, unfortunately, she's dead. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:05 PM, February 11th 2013

hmm oh well i was just curious. thanks for the suggestions.

Hells Hirearchy
I was thinking, Lilith and Alastair seem to be arch commanders, Alastair the supreme Torturer, above all others, probably one of the first along with Lilith who is the very first and in general arch commander, possibly, not sure when samhain was made but I no longer think him between white and black due to Abaddon and possibly other knights being very strong black eyed, so like Azazel, his eyes are just unique.

I'm now thinking that Azazel was the Knight of Hell commander, Abaddon being his 'hired gun', and his awareness of the angels, which is why he is not a white eyed demon, but created as a special elite demon, possibly almost tying in power to lilith, or created by lucifer to be the ruling demon since lilth was a prototype Azazel was the intended king, incase he (lucifer) was absent, Lilth being still high in Command but mostly  used as his last seal, I don't think Azazel was meant to die when he did.

Azazel seemed to have met Lucifer based on his brief conversation with him, but I knowthis is all over the place changing topic, but I noticed the way Abaddon was highly resistant if not immune to the knife, which even suprised Henry, the only other demon shown to withstand it being Alastair, with Samhain being harmed by it aswell.

Can anyone level with anything i'm coming up with here? Azazel certainly seemed to command the demonic army like a general or knight chief would do.

Princepurple (talk) 23:47, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Allow me. I'll simplify it for you. Of the demons you mentioned, the scale is as follows: Azazel > Lilith > Alastair > Abaddon > Samhain. Azazel was indited by Lucifer, to be the Superintendent. While, Lilith was the Queen of the Pit. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:55 PM, February 12th 2013


 * Everybody just really chooses Azazel and brushes off what Kripke has to say about the hierarchy of hell, eh? FTWinchester (talk) 02:42, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with that sentiment, FTWinchester. Unfortunately, not only what Kripke has to say is ignorred by nearly everybody on this wiki, but characters in the series as well, Death's statement he will reap God in the end, being the most promient. 108.225.237.96 02:54, February 13, 2013 (UTC)