Talk:Death

24.185.18.5 13:55, August 10, 2010 (UTC)This is just a minor question...but is Death more powerful than Lucifer? If so, how? What about the rest of the four horsemen?

yes he is more powerful, death is death not just a horseman he is death itself, nothing is stronger then him, in the end god will be reaped by him, Lucifer did basically what the faith healer's wife did to a reaper but on death, to putt it simply death might be a horseman but that is not all he is, the info box really do not give him justice and what not, as for the rest of them, i do not know but maybe...but maybe notFaustfan 19:38, September 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * i didn't get it, the creator is less power than the thing "he" created? how can death itself "reap" someone who is immortal to the core like the creator? in the series god is described as the same god people believes in. "supreme deity" "whose power has no match" "begginning and the end of all things" "he can create a rock suppose to be heavier enough for him to can't lift, but he can lift that rock with ease afterall" "he is a divine chuck norris"


 * It is not stated that God created Death if you paid any attention Death doesn't even know which of them came first and he knows everything who knows it could be the other way around what if God is actually a creation of Death, like God created Lucifer, What if God  is actually like Lucifer . I mean Death creates God, God Rebelled against Death as Lucifer rebelled against God, only God suceeded against Death maybe that was actually the reason why Death has been locked up all this time.


 * you may be thinking "alright God is the creator but Death is the destroyer" polar opposites whose powers are equally strong. but think like that "the creator" created even the death itself. and what about to "ring" thing, death relies on some sort of trinket to boost his powers up while god is almighty without any legendary equipments.


 * Death never had to rely on the ring. He got along just fine without the ring while all the other Horsemen did not. Reapers don't need a ring, and Death has pretty much the same powers but to much larger extent. And to add other horsemen can barely even function with them.
 * Also people, sign your names. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:21, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * in fairy tale sense, god can kick every ass in sight, and dont have an ass to be kicked. thats why he put an ass to every creation of his.i cant believe i wrote all that crap anyway.
 * Who says God made Death? It is never stated what exactly the horsemen are and Death himself states that neither he nor God remembers who is older. If Death is older than God, how could he have created Death? Even if Death is younger than God, who says he made him? And Death IS more powerful than God, or at least truly immortal, as Death cannot be killed but God can. Perhaps when everything else dies, Death will become obsolete or die too, as the horsemen seem to be as strong as the problem they represent (Thus, Death is the strongest of all, followed by Pestilence, War and finally Famine).
 * Who says God made Death? It is never stated what exactly the horsemen are and Death himself states that neither he nor God remembers who is older. If Death is older than God, how could he have created Death? Even if Death is younger than God, who says he made him? And Death IS more powerful than God, or at least truly immortal, as Death cannot be killed but God can. Perhaps when everything else dies, Death will become obsolete or die too, as the horsemen seem to be as strong as the problem they represent (Thus, Death is the strongest of all, followed by Pestilence, War and finally Famine).


 * It is never stated that Death IS the creator of the reapers. It is only said that he is the boss. Bobby said that he was (The Angel of Death or Big Daddy Reaper) but that was more of a point. But to be free of speculation on both parts I wrote that as the potential creator etc. This way it doesn't give speculation to that Death is or isn't the creator of the reapers.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:52, January 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Question not the title or powers themselves. But more of what is wriiten. Bobby states the last time Death was around Noah was building a boat. And Death states that Lucifer was making him due things like Huricanes, floods, raising the dead. Yes it does seem like he could have started the Greet Flood. But isn't that sepeculation as no one not even him directly states or even really hints to that exact event.: The Twilight of Your Despair 22:24, January 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, it's not speculation! Bobby states Heaven used him to start the Great Flood, hence he would be hydrokinetic. Just so you know, I, ImperiexSeed, do not post any speculation on any page! -- ImperiexSeed, 8:23 PM, January 14th 2012


 * http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=5.10_Abandon_All_Hope_%28transcript%29
 * http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=5.21_Two_Minutes_To_Midnight_%28Transcript%29
 * Read them and it never directly states that Death caused the Bibicial Great Flood.

As in Death. The horseman. The pale rider in the flesh.
 * And to show you direct quotes of the shows transcripts.
 * From 5.10 Abandon All Hope.
 * BOBBY

DEAN Unleash? I mean, hasn't Death been tromping all over the place? Hell, I've died several times myself.

BOBBY Not this guy. This is—this is the angel of death. Big daddy reaper. They keep this guy chained in a box six hundred feet under. Last time they hauled him up, Noah was building a boat. That's why the place is crawling with reapers. They're waiting on the big boss to show.


 * From 5.21 Two Minutes To Midnight
 * DEAN So, then why am I still breathing, sitting here with you? Uh...w-what do you want?

DEATH The leash around my neck --off. Lucifer has me bound to him. Some unseemly little spell. He has me where he wants, when he wants. That's why I couldn't go to you. I had to wait for you to catch up. He made me his weapon. Hurricanes, floods, raising the dead. I'm more powerful than you can process, and I'm enslaved to a bratty child with a temper tantrum.

These are official transcripts of the show. While it could be thought that Death did cause the great flood it in the show never openly stated it.: The Twilight of Your Despair 01:49, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Its not personal. Read those transcripts if you doubt me I ever well could be wrong. But I to the best of my knowledge I never heard or read that part.: The Twilight of Your Despair 01:49, January 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Geez, you put things far into context, making them too literal! They're called context clues, man, all you have to do is follow them. I mean, the show didn't explicitly say Death did it, but his power is immense, why else would Heaven had unleashed him?! Death's made tsunamis and rain storms, therefore he's hydrokinetic, it's just that simple. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:01 PM, January 15th 2012


 * True I will even state that its a 80% chance he did cause it or at least his summoning caused it. However I am only trying to help. You say keep the main articles completely sepeculation free. That is understandable. But if you use content clues to come up with common held theories than overs can argue. "Oh he/she is an admin so they can use anything to make sepeculation if it makes sense." Personally on one wants to hear that. And if you leave it, reword it, keep it doesn't bother me. However think of it for your sake. A little advice from someone whom is NOT mocking or insulting you. I also keep the idea that at the LEAST Death had something to do with the Great Flood Personally. But others that might disagree with you may even call you a hypocrite.
 * That if you make a reasonable conclusion from content clues that they can do that same. But what others define as content clues and secepulation varies. Again its not personal but I see all to often admins get bullied or mock and then ban users. And then those user go to the Wikia staff and get there admin rights revoked. Anyway I'll drop it.: The Twilight of Your Despair 20:03, January 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for helping, I appreciate it! You know what, I guess you're right, it is just speculation. However, the way I see it, either God or Death made the Flood, making at least one of them hydrokinetic; although, Death created may disasters having to do with water, just something to think about. Actually, defining context clues doesn't vary, it's typically the same. If someone wants to make judgement by calling me a hypocrite, then fine. I'll ponder this, and will let you know what I come up with. Again, thanks for your help. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:13 PM, January 15th 2012


 * True about Content Clues that I was a bit off. It more of what other might say what is or could be a content clue. But I agree that the very least Death had something to do with it.: The Twilight of Your Despair 20:17, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

So I just read on Death's page under him being bound but there has been absolutely no evidence that it was the angels who bound Death and put him in a coffin 600 feet under. It could've been God or Death went under voluntarily as the reapers were upholding the Natural Order without him.

Also it says that the page can't be edited but clearly it has been and some of the info seems biased and written by a religious fanatic.

Factually wrong information
The Page about Death is factually inaccurate. It has been stated several times in the show that he will kill god some day in the fare future. That he can NOT die (not even god can kill him). Why can't this page be edited to correct it? - CertusAt 15:08, June 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * He just said that, a mundane claim, that's all it was. Plus, if anything, what he probably meant, was that after God's work is done, he will allow himself to be taken by Death. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:01 PM, June 3rd 2012


 * That is speculation, you have nothing to go on here. Clearly there are only 2 paths to go. Either we post what the show states (we have no reason to believe death would lie) or we never take anything for fact that could be untrue and make this clear in the Wiki itself. For sure the solution can not be to add things that where never stated in the show. (like god being able to kill death) - CertusAt 15:08, June 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I really don't wanna sound like a dick but you seem to screw with this wikis authenticity because of some personal religious views. Clearly i can't do anything about this but i guess people should spread the word that this wiki is inaccurate and should not be used as a source for unbiased information about the show. CertusAt 15:30, June 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Possibly, maybe... perhaps, I don't know. Then what's one suppose to do with comments like, "no one makes Dad [God] do anything" (implying NO one can stand up to him), from Lucifer. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:51 AM, June 3rd 2012


 * Plus, Joshua said: "He knows already, everything you want to tell him", to the boys. Which means he knows everything, Death, however, do not.


 * Speculation on my part but if both beings can supposedly do everything, why can't they just turn off their omniscience? And God clearly doesn't know everything when not even he knows who is older between Him and Death.


 * "no one makes Dad do anything" Doesn't mean nobody CAN make him do something. It just means that nobody does. Death clearly believes in a "natural order" as he demonstrates in the episode where he gives Dean "his job" for one day. God and Death don't know which one is older, omniscience gos out the window with that one, but then you could accuse Death of lying again. Why he would do that is beyond me. In S7E1 Dean and Death talk about killing god, it is clearly implied again that he can do it. In the end we have nothing to go on but Death's word, than again we have no other source. So either you put in what the show tells us or you don't put in things that haven't been proven 100% in the show. Either way simply stating that Death can be killed by God but not visa versa is intellectually dishonest. CertusAt 23:44, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Death being wrong.

Okay, the page mentions Death being wrong on one occasion and the newest edit on God's page said that Death was wrong on something. What was it that Death was wrong on? I don't recall anything that he has said was ever wrong.L4D2 Ellis 20:36, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * He f*ucked up. He said he was summoned and bound due to Sam's hallucinations, but really Dean wanted him to kill Cas, while wielding all of Purgatory's souls. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:52 PM, July 2nd 2012


 * That was something Death assumed, he never said that he knew for sure. Everything else that he did know for certain, he was right about.L4D2 Ellis 20:58, July 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, he made a wrong assumption, therefore he doesn't know anything. Chuck, on the other hand, was never wrong. He was right in everything he said. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:22 Pm, July 2nd 2012


 * To whoever changed my edit, anything and everything are entirely different meanings.


 * Regardless, it is prohibited to alter other users' messages on talk pages. 108.225.239.73 05:40, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to remove the part about how he can only be destroyed by the All Mighty Force, God.
Death said himself that he would one day reap God. So saying he can only be destroyed by the Almighty is pure speculation and should be removed for all we know God and Death could be perfectly even in terms of power to the point where one can't exist without the other. Also we have no idea how he even came to be he could be older than God for all we know.MrAnonymous (talk) 23:33, September 6, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous


 * So, if some random supposed tough-guy appears, and says he's the Universe's ruler, you'd believe him? And also, Chuck's (God) never been wrong while Death has only at least one occasion. So, it will not be removed. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:00 PM, September 7th 2012


 * Death isn't a random tough guy at all, neither is he as weak as you make him seem to be. Also Chuck isn't God as the writers have completely changed it. Plus Chuck is a prophet, he isn't supposed to be wrong, that's his job. You're making it seem like Death's minor mistake trumps everything about him. It's still speculation that God is all powerful, all knowing and can do everything. You're just being stubborn. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:24, September 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't referring to Death per-se, I was just saying, hypothetically, if a new character appeared, and claims to be Universe's ruler, would you believe him just cause he said it. Same with Death, he makes presumptuous claims, without any concrete evidence. And Chuck is God; Erik even said The One Almighty will make an appearance in Season 5' finale, "Swan Song". And, of course, there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxIybIuNplg. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:06 PM, September 7th 2012


 * Well it's different with Death wouldn't you think? He has more credibility than just some random idiot.
 * You obviously missed the memo where they completely changed it. There's this.
 * http://io9.com/5543025/supernaturals-showrunner-sera-gamble-talks-about-god-and-endings


 * Your problem Imperiex is that there is no proof that Death is wrong about killing God. Death certainly has credibilty as he and God are the oldest beings in the whole of creation. Also so what if Death has been wrong has he ever said "I'm never wrong." Also God said how it would end but it never ended the way it was suppose to. There for God WAS WRONG TOO. This makes God and Death even in that regard.MrAnonymous (talk) 23:16, September 7, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous
 * Alright, fine. The episode where Death kills God is the day I'll believe him. Yes, the are around the same age. hmmm, nice catch. He did say, through the Bible, that it would end in certain. But, go back to a conversation Joshua had with the Winchesters. He said God knew EVERYTHING they had to say even though they didn't tell him. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:51 PM, September 8th 2012


 * And Castiel also said that the Bible gets things wrong more than it gets things right. So don't go relying on the Bible for your argument. And of course God will know what Sam and Dean are going to say, humans are predictable. Oh and if Death were omnipotent, can't he, oh I don't know, turn off his omniscience? It's not like he really needs it for his job.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 15:57, September 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh.... why would "turn off" his Omniscience with his Omnipotence? So it basically comes down to, Death is not All-knowing. I admit, Death is powerful. He possesses dominion over Reapers, he can alter the logos, and can reap basically anything. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:07 PM, September 8th 2012


 * Death doesn't have to be all knowing for his job. All he needs to know is whether people are dying or not. Why use a power that you're not gonna use to it's full potential? And we don't know the extent of God's powers. We never hear anything that came directly from him. Joshua says, God knows everything, Death says otherwise when he brought up that neither remember who is older. Death has no reason to lie about him being able to kill God or not. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:27, September 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Death only ever said that he would 'reap' God, not kill him. Seems more likely that he will reap a visage of God on Earth so God may return to Heaven. Auditore7 (talk) 18:05, September 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Dean: We need you to kill God.
 * Death: Pardon?
 * Bobby: Kill God. You heard right...your honor.
 * Death: What makes you think I can do that?
 * Dean: You told me.
 * Death: Why should I?


 * mythology
 * Clearly even Death doesn't make a distinction between killing and reaping God.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:35, September 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have a THEORY only on this. God represents the almighty being that Judeo-Christians give him. However, in the conception of death (the event) Death is equal to God's role as the Universal Creator. However, in reallife religion God by Judeo-Christian definition isn't like the how the pagan viewed their gods/deities as beings of Anthropomorphism or personification. (Sidenote for those that do not know. In religion and, anthropomorphism refers to the perception of a divine being or beings in human form, or the recognition of human qualities in these beings.) This is a common misperception for the original view of God. God is like the All, The One and several other names. He cannot be humanly definition. But on to point. Death isn't omniscient as all but proven in Appointment in Samsara. He refered to sometimes you just what the thing (his ring) off sometimes. If Death was he would know how to take it off and not use it without causing Chaos in the Natural Order.


 * The argument that Death is pointless as the point of itself goes to this theory. As if one knew the point to Death would know how to completely avoid it. However, as in the series God is at least equal to Death powers that can cause planetary damage even greater than the Archangels that it can remain that God can defeat Death. HOWEVER, it should be worded in a none opinioned way that the opposite is to happen as well with Death supposely being able to reap God.
 * Just an example. Despite, being one if not the stronger supernatural beings and the strongest Horseman shown in the series; as God is refered as Omnipotent he possibly can stop or defeat Death. However, as Death's has stated that one day God will die too the current answer is unknown at this time.: The Twilight of Your Despair 03:19, September 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Death had his ring off for an entire year even when he knew where Dean had hidden it. Nothing bad had happened to disrupt the Natural Order. I think the only reason why Death sometimes wants the ring off is because he's worn it for so long. And Death's comment of "Nothing lasts forever, well I do." may hint that not even God can kill him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:31, September 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is what I think Death and God and the other horsemen maybe even all the gods are psyichal representations of an element or force and Death and God are the strongest and equal in power because they are representations of the most constant and unending universal elements Life and Death. Because of this the two are forever connected so even if Death "dies" he wont really "end" so basically Death will continue to exist so long as God exists.


 * However the ring probably just works to stabalize Death so he doesn't have to work extra hard to do it himself. Then again there's also my theory where Death and God are one and the same. I suspect this because of how Death acts some times and he's litterally the closest to a higher being we've seen on the show.


 * I also have a crazy time travel paradox theory where Death and God are some how Sam and Dean or at least were like Sam and Dean in a previous universe until some how becoming what they are and now wait for their replacements who are Sam and Dean.MrAnonymous (talk) 20:54, September 9, 2012 (UTC)MrAnonymous


 * Well maybe, but Death has also said that nothing lasts forever except himself. So it would seem that he can end God's existance by reaping him. God and his angels don't have a soul so killing them is essentially erasing their existence.
 * There has been many theories that God and Death are the same being, but I doubt that because Sam, Dean and Bobby needed an object of God to bind Death. That makes it seem as though they are 2 different beings and God has just enough power to have Death be bound.
 * I'm gonna say that your Sam and Dean = God and Death is too crazy for me to accept and leave it at that.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 21:01, September 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is getting a bit confusing, the fact is God is the stronger, Death is about a close second, he can kill anything, but he can't create only destroy, but God can create and destroy, so he is the stronger of the two.


 * As to the rings, yes thats there implied purpose, to help the horsemen hold there coporal forms, it makes sense if you think about, I mean imagine how giagantic Strife, Hunger, Infection and Death are, there each occur everywhere on earth, and even sometime on places not on earth, compressing all that into one singel normal sized body, must be a titanic feat, even for beings of such power, so it makes sense, that they would use the rings to keep there forms coparal, so that they didn't have to constantly concentrate on it to maintain it. When non coparal, there presumably like the first evil, unable to interact with the coporal world directly.


 * Thus Death can go without his ring, as he is the strongest, and he did it willingly, so presumably he had already stated concentrating, just before he took the ring off, and he's so powerful, he can concentrate on maintaining his coparal form, while at the same time, doing the things he normally does, but the ring clearly makes it easier or he wouldn't want it back. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:56, September 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Can't create? Really? It was heavily implied that Death created the reapers. And before you say that God created them remember that every single one of God's creations were flawed, Leviathans were too dangerous, Lucifer had daddy issues with many of the angels being screwed in the head, and we all know how fucked up humans can be. Has any of the reapers shown those kinds of flaws? No. Which makes me doubt that God created them. And we're not sure if God can even destroy. He didn't kill the Leviathans, instead he shoved them into Purgatory instead of killing them like in real lore.


 * Strife, Hunger and Infection? You mean War, Famine and Pestilence? And for all we know Death only wanted his ring back because it's his. Wouldn't you want your personal belongings back when you only gave it to someone for a short period of time anyway? Once you've had something for a long time, even if you didn't like it, you'd still grow a personal attachment to it.

L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:06, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Well thats what they are aren't they? War's a extream embodiement of strife, Famine's a extream embodiment of hunger, and Pestilence is a extream form of infection. And yes he may have some sentamental Value to it, but you can't argue that it doesn't help them, when they were removed from War, Famine and Pestilence, they all simply faded back into non coparalism. This also apparantly greatly harmed them, as they were unable to return to being coparal. And at the end of the day, although a lot stronger Death is just another horseman, saying he's immune to there captital weakness just because he's stronger, is nonsence, any more than how Van Ness was not immune to burning the bones, even though he was a much stronger ghost. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:20, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

It may help War, Famine and Pestilence, but one can argue that it does absolutely nothing for Death. He's been around since the beginning of time which doesn't seem like the same can be said about the other 3 Horsemen. It's likely that Death was never a Horseman, but just took the job of being one once humanity was created. And really, if Death really needed the ring back, why not just take it back from Dean since he supposedly knew where it was hidden all along? Instead, he waited for a year until Dean decided to make a deal with him.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:39, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

No, he's definatly a horseman, everyone has refered to him as a horseman, Castiel, Sam, Bobby, Dean, Lucifer, etc, And if he isn't a horseman, why do the others refer to him as there brother? Also they may not be that old, but all the Horsemen are ancient, they all predate angels atleast, Bactria is billions of years old, the Levithans fought, and so, so is War, and they were basically nothing more than embodiments of hunger, so so is Famine, there all ancient beings, and how can you say he's not a horseman? He checks all the boxs, horse, ring, incredibly phernomanal power, being a physical embodiement of a force of destruction etc. Death's just the oldest and strongest.

And I never said he needed it, simply its more comfatable if he does have it, it simply makes his job easier. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:55, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Death may check all of the boxes the other Horsemen share, but he has shown powers that the other Horsemen never showed. If he's just the embodiment of death, he shouldn't be able to influence the moon's cycle or the weather. Bacteria is only a about 3.5 billions years old with the Milky Way being over 12 billions years old. Compared to Death, it's still barely out of it's diapers. What would he be doing for all those years before life even started? Clearly not killing anything.

Or the ring does absolutely nothing for Death's powers at all. Really, he could've retrieved it when he wanted to, yet he didn't. He really only cared for the ring because Dean was keeping it longer that he was supposed to.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 23:07, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thus is going to far into speculation, the horsemen all had unquie powers, they sharded some abilities, but the each possed unquie abilities, that only linked to what they were. And he's not a embodiment of Death, he is Death, and as such he can manipulate all forms of death, he can alter the weather, because people can die from being hit be lightning, or huricanes, or catching phenomia after being caught in the rain, he can cause a eclipse as people can die, due to the lack of light.

Also thats still older than most Angels, War is probably older, as the Leviathans were prusumably on earth sortly after it was created so nearly four billion years ago, and the same goes for Famine, but sure he's older, he's the oldest, he is always called the oldest. And you still haven't answered if he isn't a horsemen, why do they refer to him as there brother? As the horsemen are family.

And for the ring, I only said it made it easier, he doesn't need it, it just makes it easier, besides Death was also probably to busy to come and collect it personally.

And another thing, how can you argue he is the stronger? God locked him up in that box six hundered feet below, he can be imprisoned, he can be bound, he can't be everywhere at once, he can make mistakes, he has weaknesses, God has none of these problems, he is the stronger, and don't argue he might of done it willingly, who would willingly want to be locked up down bellow, only to be released when some infants (in his opioin) have something big planned. Answer them. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:49, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Eclipses only last momentarily and it was a lunar eclipse he caused, not a solar eclipse. Okay so fine, he isn't just the embodiment of Death.

They refer to him as a Horseman because it's a title. I doubt they are true brothers and I don't ever recall Death referring the other 3 Horsemen as his brothers. He doesn't even mention them.

It would've taken only a second for Death to retrieve his ring. He was busy when Dean called him and he stayed for about 5 minutes and made a deal with Dean.

Where have I ever argued that Death is stronger than God? Nowhere. Never since his first appearance since season 5 did I ever argue that Death is stronger than God. Ask anyone. And God has none of the problems? God clearly can't be everywhere at once seeing as angels can't even find him and even Raphael believed God to be dead. God can supposedly die so that should count as a weakness. And neither remembers who is older between Death and himself. And why wouldn't Death be willingly locked up? Canon shows that Death doesn't need to be around to kill people. His reapers have been doing that since he was buried underground. Death likely trusts his reapers to keep the Natural Order in place as Tessa has proven so. When Alistair kidnapped one reaper, Tessa was sent in to replace him, likely cleaning up the Natural Order. None of the reapers disobey Death and they all strive to keep things intact and are there to do their job and nothing else. What else is he supposed to do when every single one of his "employees" are doing everything that needs to be done? He doesn't care about what happens in the world unless the Natural Order is disrupted. When Lucifer released him, he was clearly annoyed that some child is using him for his own gain. He remains above ground for now because he has to clean up the mess than Lucifer and the Leviathans have left in their wake. He is likely to return when the mess is fixed and he'll let his reapers continue the work.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:21, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Unlock?
Would you consider unlocking this page? General MGD 109 (talk) 20:56, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * For what purpose, may I ask? All the information from episodes are there, and the powers and abilities is complete. When it's unlocked, people seem to get caught up in perception, and add opinionated content. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:23 PM, September 10th 2012


 * Hahahahaha! Which is funny since you clearly don't want to remove opinionated content about Death. You refuse to acknowledge that Death has the possibility of killing God and keep information that God can kill Death with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. You're just as opinionated as we are. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:41, September 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's keep debates about being opinionated off the article's talk page.  Love and Lust  00:02, September 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * You can't support information with such a bold claim by Death, which is what you're doing; you think because Death said he'll reap him, that he can. I need proof of him actually doing that. Just cause he said it, doesn't mean he can. P.S. Love and Lust, debates are officially held on talk pages, so you request is ridiculous, really. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:20 PM, September 10th


 * And you're basing your information on things set in real lore and what Joshua said. Your best argument is that Death isn't omniscient and had one thing wrong. Either have both possibilities up, or none at all. You're just as opinionated, you just won't admit it.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:27, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is fair for an administrator to be 'judge, jury, and executioner' in this case by locking the article and preventing any edits he deems incorrect from being made. That would be against the idea of collaborative editing.

As for edit wars, Imperiex, I should point out that what goes into the article should be decided by a group of editors/the community rather than one arbitrary individual. If there are any issues with the article, let's take the current state of the article to be the status quo and have a discussion on the talkpage to decide whether we should change certain statements. Of course, if there are no disputes with certain disputes made to the article, then there's no need for a discussion.

Finally, I would also like to point everyone to the three-revert rule which is put in place to prevent edit-warring. With that, hopefully we can edit this article to our heart's content. Cheers. Calebchiam Talk 06:00, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * And since it came up, here's a policy on article neutrality that will be helpful to us. Calebchiam Talk 06:22, September 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for unlocking the page Calebchiam. I always felt that it was an abuse of power what ImperiexSeed did by locking the page. The information on the page was clearly not unbiased and information provided was not said anywhere within the show.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:50, September 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also to add, could you please unlock God's page as well, because some information on Death pertains to God as well. Like his supposed immortality and omniscience. According to Death, neither is true. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:19, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done, following the same reasoning. Calebchiam Talk 10:19, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Thermokinesis/Scythe
'Thermokinesis  - Caused his scythe to heat up, to make Dean drop it, simply by thinking it.' -  Is it possible his scythe is like Dean's amulet? It burns hot in Death's presence, instead of God's?


 * I always assumed that it was like the amulet in that it responds to his presence, but I don't think that it requires his conscious instruction for it to do so. So yeah, I agree with you. Ensephylon (talk) 06:49, March 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Huh. Nice note. Um....that could be possible. I mean, in "Two Minutes To Midnight", he didn't display any signs of activating a power, which normally happens in Supernatural. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:58 PM, March 6th 2013
 * I don't know, this is death were talking about, I mean he caused all those lightning flashes during the conversation without showing any activation of power, death seems able to do things simply by thinking about them, without requiring a physical projection of his power (thats my theory on why the need to move any way.) General MGD 109 (talk) 18:30, March 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, even Gabriel, at times, needed to move to will something to occur. But, anyway, back on Death. Yes, I'll totally buy that answer! By this standard, I guess we'll never know for sure, unless he straight out tell us, the fans. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:33 PM, March 7th 2013


 * perhaps the scythe could sense that Dean wanted to kill it's master to an extent so it stoped him.
 * 21:30, September 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Or like the pedent it glows hot in it's master's presence.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:10, October 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Or like the pedent it glows hot in it's master's presence.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:10, October 1, 2013 (UTC)

Rogue Reapers
I wonder why Death would allow rogue reapers to exist if they disrupt the natural order, which he hates Gabriel456 (talk) 17:55, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

The same discussion has happened on the IMDb board after the episode aired. The best answer people have come up with, which I find fairly flimsy, is that changing a soul's intended destination upon dying doesn't do anything. Either way it is a canon violation that the writers have done. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:07, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I always assumed that Death was simply more leninate to reapers than humans, you know nepoltism. Although I would like to point out the Rouge reaper did die during the episode, so you don't think its possible... General MGD 109 (talk) 20:18, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Death would be lenient to anyone about the Natural Order other than himself and God. Every reaper to date has done the job they are supposed to. Ajay has been the only exception. And Ajay's death came about a little too late. The fact that they even exist is idiotic.

By the way "rouge" and "rogue" mean two different things.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 20:33, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well I don't know, Death has been quite lenient to Dean before. Indeed, still it was just an idea. And I'm sorry if mild dyslexia annoys you. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:45, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think Death was only lenient on Dean in some ways because he knows about the bigger picture and sees when Dean actually needs it. Reapers who actually do the things he employs them to do is a little different.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:00, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

I know we've discussed this in the reaper talk page but this thought occurred to me just now--what if Death foresaw the need to release a soul from Hell as one of the trials, hence Death letting Ajay take Bobby to Hell initially? FTWinchester (talk) 11:28, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

According to the crossroads demon, it sounds as though rogue reapers have been around for a while. I'm sure Bobby wasn't the first soul that was smuggled over to the wrong side. That and I don't think Death would support closing the gates of Hell. If it's a two way thing where evil souls don't go in or out, that would disrupt the Natural Order big time.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:36, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Add "Angel of Death"?
Should we add that into his list of nicknames? It was mentioned in the book that Bobby was reading.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:52, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

I agree --General MGD 109 (talk) 21:48, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

precautions
I wonder, could the reason be that the reason God locked up death was because he feared him? something he seems to have stirred him, locking up Death who seems to have been an aquaintence and also leaving heaven for no apparent reason, as if paranoia got the better of him..perhaps when death mentioned that one day he would reap God is due to some prophecy, as in the greek and roman myths, when the personification of the Heavens (Uranus) was castrated by his youngest Totan child, Chronus, Uranus prophisized that one day Cronus would also meet his fate by one of his own sons, and so Cronus, now Ruler of all, became insanley paranoid and Swallowed each of his olympian children whole.

I know that most likely won;t occur, but rather something along those lines, perhaps one of the fates, likely the eldest, forsaw God's demise, God believing that the only thing capeable of killing him was death, decided to lock him up, by unclear means, which is why I would think that there are other unrevealed primordials, and afterwards, at some point, God left heaven, tormented by it.

I can't think of any other valid reason why God would want to lock Death away, he was still functioning while locked away anyway, but the fact that God would cast out Lucifer for disobeying, imprison Gadreel for failing to stop lucifer from corrupting eden, and the fact that he pretty much ignored the apocalypse post leaving heaven, seems to point out that something severe caused him to become rather harsh all of a sudden, I don't doubt that he is the most powerful primordial, but it seems silly to imply that only 2 primordials exist, I think he is the force of balance in the universe, keeping the other driving forces in order.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Princepurple (talk) 12:33, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think I agree with you, beforehand I would think God really wouldn't be scared of anything but after everything you said I'd agree. Also i've been thinking that there has to be another primordial being that they're going to introduce. Having the two seems a little strange to me, although I love having Death around. It's so strange to me that God would lock him up though, I don't know that's just me. I don't think Death went around killing people beforehand so once again... I find it a bit strange that God locked him up. Bigmar6775 (talk) 15:10, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why God locked him up cause, if he's anything like the Judeo/Abrahamic God, he can take care of everything without stopping, but still be personable (through Jesus Christ, among other methods) with anyone. This line of logic where because God imprisons something that mean he's afraid of it has been disproven many times; God locked up Lucifer and Leviathan, doesn't mean he fears them. If God's Crowley, which, since season six, I think he is, that would explain why he doesn't help, or care, like Dean says. Maybe Chuck and Crowley both were God in forms he chose to use to interact with. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:15 PM, February 28th 2014

Well God didn't really fear the Leviathans or Lucifer but he did fear what they might do ... I mean he didn't want the Leviathans eating everything and Lucifer would've destoryed the humans... Do you think Death wanted the humans dead, or something like that? Bigmar6775 (talk) 17:55, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

While I would agree that God didn't lock Lucifer up because he feared his son, I would think that he locked up the Leviathans in Purgatory because he somewhat feared them. We have no other known reason other than Death saying that God locked them up because God was concerned that they would "chomp the entire petri dish". If he was so concerned about them, why not just destroy them all? Why lock them up?

Neither do I think Death wanted the human's dead. He doesn't care enough about them to personally intervene much. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:59, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I can't exactly vouch for why God locked them up rather than just destroying them, however we can't automatically assume he feared them cause he locked them up and didn't destroy them. That's the problem with where the show's been heading-leaving everything up to the fans to calculate and deduce, which is grimy because people are going to have different opinions. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:16 PM, February 28th 2014

At least for the Leviathans they somewhat gave a reason with Death's line. Frankly I'm just gonna go what's in the show's canon until they destory it by Buckner and Ross-Leming. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:24, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

I would say to prevent someone from using their own binding spell on Death, but Lucifer appeared powerful enough to break through that so it's probably not the reason. It has been hinted that the apocalypse has been jumpstarted above schedule, so perhaps if it went by God's original plan and not on the whims of the archangels, Death's raising would have been different. Death appears to be in good terms with God anyway, so I think it is highly probable that Death would agree to slumber and stay out of the picture (leaving reapers to do his work for him) until called upon by God when he wanted to. This of course, is pretty muchgrasping straws. FTWinchester (talk) 19:18, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

God is way too powerful to fear Leviathan and man, that would demean the God of the Judeo/Abrahamic religions power rep, which this series' God is hugely based on. God locked them up because he feared that, wherever Leviathan went, they would amass a hold over whatever habit (Earth, Purgatory, Hell, and Heaven) they were in so much that they would become gods of their own. They literally possess the potential to destroy any and all life except for God, Death, and probably archangels. And if you listen to the tone of scene, Death says that God did this in fear of his creation, not because of some inner fear he had. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:04 PM, February 28th 2014

It was still a fear that he had. Also would you please stop with the SPN God = JC-God of real lore God? It always clouds your judgement. Let it go! Everything on the show is based on everything in real lore. God is not immune to this. I find you far too biased in these discussions. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 00:39, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

I'm comparing them not equalizing them. So you're telling me it's plausible for Leviathan to whimsically take out their Creator? -- ImperiexSeed, 7:46 PM, February 28th 2014

This, "God is way too powerful to fear Leviathan and man, that would demean the God of the Judeo/Abrahamic religions power rep, which this series' God is hugely based on." actually makes it sound more like you're equalizing them and not comparing them.

Take out? No. Harm him enough to worry him? Yes. God might get a few bites here and there before finally killing them off. They are incredibly resilient beings. Even I were the most powerful being, I wouldn't be arrogant about the creations I have made that have a potential to destroy everything. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 01:23, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

You have no canonical basis to even imagine that Leviathan can nick God. It was said both by Death and Castiel that God locked them up for the sake of all other beings, because they'd "chomp" through the entire aquarium. What I said was that the series' God is highly based on the Judeo/Abrahamic God, how the heck do you view God in the series on the evidence we have been given? -- ImperiexSeed, 6:01 PM, March 1st 2014

How do I view God based on what the show is given? Entirely different from the J-C God. Also, as an athiest, I am the least likely to go up in arms and complain whenever lore is changed on the show. How I view God from Supernatural: Created *almost* everything; there is no evidence to suggest that he created the Pagan Gods or the other Horsemen, other than Lucifer's delusions of grandeur of his father. God is not eternal whatsoever; "In the end, I'll reap Him too." -- Death. God is not omiscient; "As old as God, maybe older. Neither of us can remember any more." Also said by Death. God is not omnipresent, no angels can find him. God is a total deadbeat as seen by many in the SPN fandom. God has a near power equal with Death. They balance each other out. I do not believe that he has one in J-C lore. I don't even think the real lore Michael comes close to him either. God's creations all have flaws: Leviathans, Angels and Humans. Frankly, I see him as another figure that has been twisted to suit the story for the show. The God within the show? He's an idiot. I much rather follow Death than him. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 04:48, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

I'm quite aware that there are some undeniable and irrefutable things that weren't created by God; them being reapers, hellhounds, and Horsemen. If God can be clawed at by Leviathan then so can Death. I'll thank you for at least sharing your comment. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:12 AM, March 2nd 2014

And I'll say you're welcome. And for all we know, the fact that that there is a possibility of the Leviathans causing minor harm to Death could be the reason why he found them entertaining. Nasty little buggers that can destroy everything with a small chance of causing you harm, even if it were comparatively as small as an insect bite. You gotta give them points for their gumption at harming something that is so vastly more powerful than they are. If I were to think like that, I would find the Leviathans entertaining for those reasons I listed. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 05:20, March 2, 2014 (UTC)

I definitely didn't think that's why he found them entertaining; they were entertaining to him because they were like a bunch of snapping turtles fighting over a cookie crumb. But if one starts thinking God can be damaged by his creations, him being God gets convoluted. He ceases to be God if he can be hurt by his own creations. Something that bugs me is how easily convinced Dean was that Death can kill God, the transition being seen from "Two Minutes to Midnight" to "Meet The New Boss." Maybe he got comforted at the thought of dirt pile of dung God could be killed off in some way, who knows. Consider, Death's statement only makes sense where there will come a time that God will feel his work is finished and he'll let Death reap him. In that context, yes, only Death will remain, while everything other than him ceases. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:24 PM, March 2nd 2014

Probably not, but Death never elaborated any further.

And who's to say that the SPN God is really a God at all? Maybe he only refers to himself as that because out of all the known gods, he comes closest to fit the description. All he's missing is that he be eternal, omnipresent, and omniscient. Do we know that he called himself God before the humans did? The fact that he and Death coexisted and happened to balance him out makes it seem like he's not a god at all. He just took the role of one. He could be Death's exact opposite, Life. I mean when you think about it, it makes no sense for Death to be as powerful as God is. Supernatural seems to be the first fictional story where they made Death God's equal in terms of power. Why should Death be as powerful as him? Sure he would have his own power levels, by why is he so close to God in terms of power? Not even War, Pestilence and Famine come close and they rely on humans. Nothing died before the creations of humans either, so why was Death there before dying actually existed? Makes me think that there is no true God in the SPN verse and that the angel's father just comes closest to the description. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:50, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

I hope you realize that can't be proven or disproven, but very interesting and gripping theory. I have questions that may deflate or accommodate this theory. And, if Death truly is older, where did this Father figure come from? Where did this idea of 'the true' God even come from and did he really just adopt this title, or is he really God? Can we really be safe when saying something can come out of nothing, cause that's a position we'd find ourselves in if we say God's younger. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:20 PM, March 2nd 2014

Yes I do know of it's provability(if that is even a word). But this is a discussion page. I would never post that on the main page. As for their ages, I wouldn't think either is older than the other. I still stand firm that they are the same age, hence their lack of knowledge on who is older. I think the idea of a "true God" came from the humans. I don't think the God of the SPN verse created beings on the intent of worship. He seems to be a mad scientist who just wants to create for the heck of it. That or a more recent theory, the Natural Order is the driving force of everything. That may be the true eternal phenomenon. Or maybe not. I would like to think that it created God and Death out of necessity to balance itself out. When God decided to create the Leviathans, Angels and Humans for whatever reason, the balance may have been lost and that's where Death stepped in. He and his reapers are there to balance out the life God created. Which explains the need for him to exist before the act of dying actually happened. I'm still thinking on this so I wouldn't know how well it works. But it at least sort of solves how God and Death came into being within the show. As for the Natural Order, that's a whole other world. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 04:40, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if I could accept that, but very nice theory. I mean, it's workable for the writers to sattle onto everything that we know as canon, so who knows. I have many theories of my own on many different things, if you'd like to hear them sometime. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:11 AM, March 3rd 2014

It would have to depend on what the theories are about. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 17:41, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

My theories are on what Jesus really is, the creation/timeline of Death's scythe, and could God have a species, in the supernatural universe. If they peak your interest, I'll explain them on your talk page. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:46 PM, March 3rd 2014

Jesus and the creation of Death scythe, not so much. Give God's species a go.L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:28, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Oh my, look at this, wow L4D2 Ellis, you really can debate, but can I just add a few things.

1. Humans can create nulcear warheads, which can wipe us out easily, so God could also create his own 'nukes' but with a concience, seems to me as if he's like 'oh shit, what have I done? I have created world ending monstrosities, i can't let them be free, but have no right to destroy them', it's like keeping nukes stored but nit destoying them.

2. Why is it that God has to have created something? for the greeks, the primordials sprung from the first being, a void of chaos, messy, unstructured, this makes sense that from chaos came order.

3. I firmly believe that both God and Death are members of a limited race of primordial beings, possibly secondary gen, first gen being fabric abstrat only, and that God existed as the Balancer or fine tuner along side Death, Gaia (nature but not the earth within SPN and mother of deitites), Time, Space, Oder being what God is, as in the natural order, Light, Darkness, Good, Evil ect...

4. In regards to deaths Sythe I Don't know but truly believe it to be the only weapon to kill God and may be used for such, and that somehow at some point is linked to the lesser powerful Archangel blades, Colt, and First blade.

5. As for Jesus, as implied in show, he never was really the son of God, but may have been the first voluntary fallen Angel which God allowed as an experiment to see the results of an angel born Human and such he had unique powers which were seen as will of god in human form, which, if god created humans in his form, and angels are his will, then my idea of jesus would be both, a way of bridging the gap, only to find it failed inevitably and such its considered a major crime in heaven.

My other Idea is where Cain became a Demon, Abel became an angel, later falling and becoming jesus born on earth.

Princepurple (talk) 23:22, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

I totally disagree that what's Jesus is. He was either a human spokesman of God or his bodily representative in realms. It could be possible that he and Death are a part of a limited race of primordials, but that's really presumptuous. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:10 PM, March 4th 2014

Thanks for the compliment Princepurple. Now on to your points.

1. In a way that sort of works, but if God ordered Michael to kill Lucifer, why not just kill the Leviathans? What purpose did they serve? At least nuclear weapons can serve a use. The Leviathans didn't. If I had created something so destructive but had no use, I would kill them immediately.

2. I never said that God had to have created anything. My theory on the Natural Order fits in with the Greek theory that it created God and Death to balance itself out. I think God created the Leviathans, angels and humans for some unknown reason. But as they're not the creation of the Natural Order, they throw the balance off. I think that's why Death became who he is, to rebalance it. All three will die in the end.

3. Um...sure if you think so. I don't though.

4. It may or may not be able to kill God or Death. But I do believe that it can kill everything else. Though I don't think it's linked to any other killing weapons.

5. As for your Jesus and Cain idea. I don't see it at all. I think both are seperate and I don't think Abel became an angel either. Since Abel was bound for Hell originally, I don't think he would be turned into an angel. Also that would be a first of a human turned angel within the show. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 02:34, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

I can't say exactly why God locked up Death as an absolute. There could be numerous reasons why he was locked up, one of which being maybe so that the story could go somewhere, or maybe Death asked to be locked up. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:32 PM, March 5th 2014

Imperiexseed locked the page, because I put that there was a POSSIBILITY that Deaths ring could be removed without his consent. I didn't say it was 100% certain that anyone can do it, but put it as a possibility, because it is. Because Imperiexseed wants Death to be basically God, and doesn't want him to have any limits, or have anyone be able to harm him, or out smart him, he changed it back and locked it. What do you think? Do you think it's fair that an admin should lock a page, and take away accurate info, because he doesn't want to believe it? Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 23:01, August 3, 2014 (UTC)