Talk:Demon-Killing Knife

Should we call it Ruby's knife? They always refers it as Ruby's knife. --Darth Stefan (Talk) 20:08, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

ERMM.
Who put it can kill Eve? there is no proof of this and also who said it was created by Samuel Colt? I've never heard this once on the show?

Yes, you are totally correct in saying that because it was never mentioned as to who constructed the knife nor do we know if that knife could have killed Eve. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:21 PM, April 30th 2011

I really hope one day we will find out how it was made ect ;p that knife along with the colt are intresting:)

I think this page needs more info. Like when the knife is used, how it is used. The fact that demons know what it is, all of that. This page is pretty bare for such an important item.

Starku 06:21, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Immunity
First, Alistair was never stabbed in the heart. Here is the fight with castiel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFP05ui3ETM

Pay attention at 1:15

He is twisting the knife, which is positioned  in the upper pectoral, not moving down towards his heart.

Here is a picture of where the heart is:

http://deskarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Heart.jpg

Alistair was stabbed in the upper pectoral, not the heart.

Coincidentally, when Sam stabbed alistair the first time they met, he stabbed him in the exact same place.

Provide evidence to the contrary, or Im going to revert your edit.

What do you, I guess your right, but he was stabbed in the heart the first time, I'm pretty sure of that. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:28, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

No, he wasn't. Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMjOMje4wjI

Pay attention at 1:23. He was stabbed in the same area as his fight with cas. Not in the heart.

No I'm pretty sure it was his heart, it was lower, and this time the knifes pointed down, even if wasn't where his heart was virticuly, it would still have gone through it, as the knife's that long. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:13, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

No, you are stretching it quite a bit. The knife was more to his left if anything, and was not pointed toward the heart. Watch the video again. At the end of the video you can clearly see the stab wound very near his shoulder.

No I've watched it again, and I'll still say its going in his heart, I admit I was wrong the first time, but thats more down to being unsure where the heart actually was, but this time it was around the right area, and pointing down, sure it wouldn't go through the center, but even piercing the side of a heart, is directly fatal. To end this constant, I disagree, how about we have another user look, and then they decide wether or not it does, as we don't seem able to convince each other. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:32, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Did you pause at 1:23 like I said? That frame CLREARLY shows the position of the knife. Its nowhere near his heart. At 1:41 you can clearly see the wound. Its basically below his shoulder. And from the blood stain on the knife at 1:38, you can see that it did not even go all the way in. But, whatever, lets have another user take a look at it.

Okay, Who we ask? And I'll look again. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:02, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

I have examined the evidnence and yes it did not go into his heart in his fight with Castiel, but when Sam stabbed him, it would've punctured the top of his heart. Which would be fatal. Self-Declared God of Supreme Conduits (talk) 23:14, February 1, 2013 (UTC)Kesslerbeast

There is no way it reached his heart, The heart is in the middle of the chest. Picture of heart location:

http://www.umm.edu/graphics/images/en/18120.jpg

Alistair was stabbed near the shoulder joint:

http://health.rush.edu/HealthInformation/graphics/images/en/19623.jpg

Pause the video at 1:16 and 1:17. The knife is poiting away from the heart. There is no way it touched it. And it didnt even go all the way in.A.J AL (talk) 23:49, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Anyone else wanna chime in? I cant be the only voice of reason here.A.J AL (talk) 00:38, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

I suppose you are right but it would still hurt like a son-of-a-bitch.Self-Declared God of Supreme Conduits (talk) 03:49, February 2, 2013 (UTC)Kesslerbeast

Why does it matter? that knife killed many other demons without directly hitting the heart, Alastair was not killed, so there is no proof to suggest that a heart kill would be fatal to him anyway, it apparently was not to Abaddon.

Princepurple (talk) 16:52, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Good point, where is stated that stabbing the heart for demons is more dangerous with the knife? No where, so far any wound to the chest, neck or head is leathal to demons, and he survived these so he's immune. The closest is Alastairs own comment, and how would he know? He clearly didn't recognise the knife, nor had it ever happened before, so he was most likely guessing. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll alter the page. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:19, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Also adding, some demons have died by being stabbed in the stomach, like Brady and the demon possessing Bobby. Alistair was stabbed by the knife in his stomach when Dean tortured him, and the main page has the picture to prove it. Even then Alistair survived it. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 02:53, May 24, 2013 (UTC)

Dean stabbed Alastair below the ribs, not in the stomach. And dean indicated that he was gonna kill Alastair with the knife right before Alastair freed himself from the trap. Alastair was resistant to the knife. That much is known. Whether he was immune like abaddon is never proven, so its not a fact. He was never stabbed in a vital area. Even Castile survived being stabbed with the angel blade. That doesn't mean he was immune to it. Azazel survived being shot in the leg with the colt. That doesn't mean he was immune cause that wasn't a vital area.

I just wanted throw this in. Just because Dean said he'll kill Alistair with the knife, doesn't mean that it'll actually kill Alistair with it. And when has Castiel ever been stabbed by the angel blade? I've only recalled him being cut by it, but not stabbed. If we're gonna use your logic, then that would mean that every single demon is resistent to the knife as long as they aren't stabbed in a vital area. Azazel was later shot near the shoulders with the Colt. It was nowhere near the heart and he died from the bullet wound. The exact same place Alistair was stabbed, twice even. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:05, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Rename?
So, "As Time Goes By" implied the knife is a Knife of the Kurds. Does that merit a rename? Or are we content with simply "Demon-killing knife"?--68.202.180.121 23:23, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Mention of the new name on the page's first sentence may be enough, I think. We do not have enough information related to Kurds to explain how and why the Knife was named that way. FTWinchester (talk) 15:09, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

The First Blade
Can it be assumed that the 'first' blade refers to the demon killing knives? the first may be to do with 'first born' but perhaps it was the first ever bladed weapon used by a human? or perhaps the kurds somehow used it as a template for creation of the lesser blades? afterall the first blade is just an upgrade.

Princepurple (talk) 10:36, May 26, 2014 (UTC)

I think its the first ever bladed weapon ever used by a human, after it does predate all the others.General MGD 109 (talk) 18:49, May 26, 2014 (UTC)

The First Blade (with the possible exception of Death's scythe, that he probably fashioned quickly sometime after the creation of the Earth) was the first coherent weapon used in the act of aggression. The blade(s) the Kurds made have nothing to do with the First Blade. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:28 PM, May 26th 2014

Really? it just so happens that samual can craft a gun capable of killing anything, the kurds managed to craft blades with magical power enough to kill a demon when almost all hunters believed killing a demon was not possible? and it just so happened that the boys attempted to kill abaddon with a demon killing knife, only to find that the only thing that can is a stronger colt/demon killing knife hybrid like thing? If you can't acccept the blatant possiblility that deaths sythe, the colt, kurdish knives, angel/archangel blades and the first blade are linked somehow in some way then try looking between the lines.

and if it was fashioned after earths creation does it predate angel/archangel blades? as I have to wonder, why would angel need such weapons when they initially lacked corperal forms? and why even give them such powerful blades to begin with? what were the angels protecting themselves from? Leviathans? other deitites? eachother? did god know that angels were also flawed and needed an agressive output?

It seems highly likely tha the archangels were using thier blades in there aggressive war in agression before the first blade was either made or used, as cain was not a demon when the war happened, but the first blade can supposedly kill anything, even damaging angel more terribly that an angel blade.

the sort of power the super weapons posess to kill must come from somewhere, the ability to outright inflict death seems like a raw power used in differnt conentrations and associated with death, afterall, the sythe kills anything.

Princepurple (talk) 10:16, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

I think you're getting your timeline a bit mixed up (not entirely your fault, the new era really muddled up a lot of canon). The First Blade can not be an upgrade to the knife of the Kurds as the First Blade is the first weapon made and used by man. And since it was used by man, it most likely did not predate angelic weapons (although the opposite may still be true as Lucifer's rebellion happened after humanity was made, Lucifer's dialogue seem to indicate he rebelled from seeing Adam and Eve, which were Cain's parents). Angels are soldiers, so it makes sense for them to have weapons that are corporeal since they have enemies that are corporeal. As for the link among them, it is possible, but largely unsupported by canon. FTWinchester (talk) 12:25, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Alastair isn't immune
General MGD 109 please meet me here to debate the topic... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 02:52, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Alastair is at the very least highly resistant to the knife. If anybody actually believes Alastair could be killed by the knife after several attempts at incredibly vital areas, I recommend they watch the show again. The comparison of Castiel being shot in the stomach by the angel-blade-bullet and surviving was because Crowley planned to maim Castiel, not outright kill him. Alastair, on the other hand, has also been stabbed in the chest, to which he did not suffer lasting fatal injuries. If the blade could truly kill Alastair, Sam needed not to step in and use his powers to kill Alastair. Never mind that Alastair was more powerful than both Dean and Castiel--Sam and Dean have killed physically superior enemies with the proper weapon (i.e., staking deities and decapitating leviathans). In many cases, the knife did not appear to be a proper weapon to take down the white-eyed demon. FTWinchester (talk) 11:14, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Okay I'm here sorry about leaving, it was getting late where I live and I was getting tired. Thank you FTWinchester for helping out. As he he rightly put Alastair was stabbed three times, once in the Stomach, twice in the chest. So far such wounds have been leathal to all other demons stabbed prooving he's immune to atleast the killing effects, though it still clearly hurts him. Arguments he needed to be stabbed in a vital area I feel are unfound, and ignor the fact that as a demon he had no vital area's he was possessing a body but wasn't using any of the organs so why should being stabbed in the heart be any more leathal than being stabbed in the chest (granted being stabed in the leg or the arm wouldn't be leathal, as explained by demons possessing every part of the body, so to them an arm is still and arm and a leg is still a leg) but he had no use for the organs so where in the chest he was stabbed is really redunadant, as proved by other demons dying from being stabbed in the same places.

Onto the big about Alastiar's lines I would like to motion there is no indication from them he was talking about his heart, he just says ""close but not close enough" which could equally mean, close it hurts but not enough to stop me. Plus there is the fact he would have no way of knowing the specification or limitiations of blade, as he had no idea what it was as shown when talking to Ruby while torturing her, he specifically makes it clear he doesn't know what it is and asks her where she found it. As if he did mean the heart, he can not be taken as an accurate source, as he would have no way of knowing what effect it was would have.

And for an extra piece of evidence, there is the reaction of Abaddon, she took the stabing and survived cause she was immune (which you agree with as it is canon) and it caused her to fall over in pain, Alastair was still able to stand and fight while the knife was still in his body. He took it much better than she did, so how then can she be immune while he isn't? General MGD 109 (talk) 17:19, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Alastair isn't only more resistant to the knife because he is a high class demon, but because he is a master torturer, and used to the pain, as he is used to the pain of Hell. I'm sorry, but all your evidence is, is just plain assumption...it was never stated that he was immune, and he was never stabbed in a vital area to prove it...you bring up the fact that Crowley didn't want to kill Cas when he shot him in the stomach, yet neither did Dean! Dean put the knife slowly into his stomach to cause him pain, and to torture him...not to kill him. Sam only stepped in and used his powers, not because the knife wouldn't work, but because Castiel missed his heart, or another vital area. The knife landed in his upper right chest, right bellow the shoulder, missing his heart. Alastair then said "almost...looks like Gods on my side today" meaning that he almost got his heart, and almost killed him, but he got lucky. To say that this is only because he didn't know the blade couldn't kill him is pure speculation. With all the evidence from the show, you cannot say he is immune... Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 18:31, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that just an assumption to? It was never stated Cain was immune either, because they didn't need to, its called showing not telling. Why would a vital area make any difference? Demons don't need blood pumped round there vessels, or ther host to be alive, so why should a vital area make any dfference. I didn't make that point, and I think comparing two different weapons, and two different types of weapons is flawed and irrelevant. What angel blades can do is not comparable to what this blade can do, cause there not the same weapon, they probably don't even work this way. No its not speculation, its speculation to say he would know what it could do, he is the transcript from "Heaven and Hell"

Alastair: "... But I do have to say... This knife of yours... It's an exquisite piece. You must tell me where you found it..."

He clearly doesn't know what the knife, so suggesting he woud know what its limitations are is pure speculation. Further more you ignore the fact that no other demon has survived being in the exact same places. The rules of the knife are simple, stab a demon and they die, unless there immune, no ands, ins or buts, its that simple. --General MGD 109 (talk) 18:49, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

You clearly haven't seen the show enough if you think they can be stabbed just anywhere and die! Meg stabbed Crowley in the same place as Alastair, and he survived. Dean shot Azazel in the leg with the colt, and he survived. Bobby stabbed a demon in the leg with the knife in "the man who would be king" and he didn't die...that proves you need to be stabbed in a vital place...and I wasn't saying that he knew the limitations of the blade, you said that him saying "almost" was because he DIDNT know the limitations of the blade, and that is pure speculation. Alastair said he got lucky, because Cass missed his heart, and saying that he only said that because he didn't know the power of the blade, is just speculation. It didn't need to be said that Cain was immune to the blade, because there was no orange/yellow light. You see that whenever someone stabs Alastair, there is the light. By the way, saying that the demon knife and the angel blade are two different weapons could backfire on you, because the angel blade can kill demons too, and is the more powerful weapon, so it is the same, comparison wise. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:03, July 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * "I'm sorry, but all your evidence is, is just plain assumption"

Really, now?


 * "Alastair isn't only more resistant to the knife because he is a high class demon,  but because he is a master torturer, and used to the pain, as he is used to the pain of Hell ."

No actually,  THAT  right there is an assumption.


 * "he was never stabbed in a vital area to prove it."

I think you need to brush up on your vocabulary.


 * "..you bring up the fact that Crowley didn't want to kill Cas when he shot him in the stomach, yet neither did Dean!"

You totally missed the point. I said in addition to being stabbed in the stomach, Alastair was also stabbed in the chest, twice. In one of those occasions, the knife was even twisted in its place.


 * "The knife landed in his upper right chest, right bellow the shoulder, missing his heart."

Aside from vocabulary, please revisit basic human anatomy as well. You may miss the heart, but right around it are the lungs and among the largest veins and arteries that supply the heart. Any damage to those major blood vessels would cause fatal injury to the heart soon after. Besides, all of this is null as it has been shown that other demons stabbed in the chest die immediately regardless of the exact location, and even Azazel died from a shoulder wound from the Colt's bullet.


 * "Alastair then said "almost...looks like Gods on my side today" meaning that he almost got his heart, and almost killed him, but he got lucky."

Open to interpretation. It could also mean the knife causes him pain and slows him down but not enough to actually kill him. If you downplay this exact part as an assumption, then the same thing basically goes to your claim. Interpretation is not always exactly strict, and in this case, context could mean either way. In fact, if we bring in Alastair's taunting and mocking in 4.10 Heaven and Hell, he also makes a similar comment about how Castiel's smiting does not affect him completely, where as finally, in a later confrontation in 4.16 On the Head of a Pin, Castiel managed to at least injure Alastair, hence the line, "almost".

FTWinchester (talk) 19:03, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Rewatch the episode, Azazel was not shot in the shoulder. Crowley was stabbed in the same place the Alastair was stabbed in twice, and he lived, but he isn't immune to the knife either. It did not puncture his heart or lungs. Him saying "almost, looks like gods on my side today" is pretty easy to understand, and obviously refers to Castiel missing. Cas twisting the knife would not have killed him either, it just caused him pain. When I said that he was more resistant to the knife because he was a master torturer, that was suppose to be an alternate explanation, and actually it isn't just an assumption. That's why the angels needed dean, because he was resistant to torture, and trained in that area. Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:14, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

''You clearly haven't seen the show enough if you think they can be stabbed just anywhere and die! Meg stabbed Crowley in the same place as Alastair, and he survived. Dean shot Azazel in the leg with the colt, and he survived. Bobby stabbed a demon in the leg with the knife in "the man who would be king" and he didn't die...that proves you need to be stabbed in a vital place''.

No it doesn't, it just means that you need to be stabed somewhere in the chest or neck, as explained in "Torn and Frayed" when demons possess someone, they take overy part, so arms and legs are still arms and legs. Meg stabed Crowley with an angel blade, not the demon killing knife stop comparing them, there not the same weapon, by the same logic you could say an angel blade shouldn't kill angels cause Cas survived being stabbed by the demon killing knife.

Dean shot Azazel with the colt in "All Hell Breaks Loose" in the upper chest bellow shoulder, the same place Alastair was stabbed twice and he died. Bobby stabbed the demon possessing him in the lower stomach, lower than Alastair was stabbed in "Sympathy for the Devil" and the demon died. Sam stabbed a demon in the stomach in the same place Alastair was stabbed in "My Bloody Valentine" and the demon died. Dean stabbed demon in the upper chest bellow the shoulder same place he stabbed Alastair in "A Little Slice of Kevin" and the demon died. Proving Alastair was immune.

''..and I wasn't saying that he knew the limitations of the blade, you said that him saying "almost" was because he DIDNT know the limitations of the blade, and that is pure speculation. Alastair said he got lucky, because Cass missed his heart, and saying that he only said that because he didn't know the power of the blade, is just speculation.''

And saying he would know is equally speculation. Especially as I've alreaday proved he had no idea what the blade is, so he would have no idea what its limitations were.

''It didn't need to be said that Cain was immune to the blade, because there was no orange/yellow light. You see that whenever someone stabs Alastair, there is the light''

Yeah, okay they didn't outright Abaddon as immune in her first apperance, but she was and she still had the orange light. They didn't say he was immune to Iron, but he was, or that he was more resilent to holy water or salt, but he was. Its called showing not telling.

. ''By the way, saying that the demon knife and the angel blade are two different weapons could backfire on you, because the angel blade can kill demons too, and is the more powerful weapon, so it is the same, comparison wise. ''

No it can't, saying that they acomplish the same thing means they are the same is rediculous. A shotgun and a 9mm can do the same things, but because you survived a blast at close range with a 9mm won't mean you will do the same with a shotgun. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:17, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Being a master torturer doesn't immediately grant you high tolerance for pain. Sadism does not necessarily mean masochism, so yes, attributing his high resistance to pain as due to his role as a master torturer and not because of his innate resistance/immunity is an assumption, and a false one at that. The angels needed Dean to torture Alastair, and not kill him. In the two scenarios he was stabbed in the chest, the angels and the Winchesters were clearly gunning for kill, but they can't. We have a number of canon evidence to support that Alastiar is more immune than vulnerable and you call our side as nothing but assumptions. Yeah, okay. FTWinchester (talk) 19:21, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

This could go back and forth forever, so how about we try a simpler way? You sate 1 piece of evidence the Alastair is immune, and I counter it. You sate another one, I counter. And so on and son on. Basically 1 point per post Dean.winchestor.54 (talk) 19:29, July 4, 2014 (UTC)

Very well, to repeat myself: "Dean shot Azazel with the colt in "All Hell Breaks Loose" in the upper chest bellow shoulder, the same place Alastair was stabbed twice and he died. Bobby stabbed the demon possessing him in the lower stomach in "Sympathy for the Devil", lower than Alastair was stabbed  and the demon died. Sam stabbed a demon in the stomach in the same place Alastair was stabbed in "My Bloody Valentine" and the demon died. Dean stabbed demon in the upper chest bellow the shoulder same place he stabbed Alastair in "A Little Slice of Kevin" and the demon died. Proving Alastair was immune." General MGD 109 (talk) 19:38, July 4, 2014 (UTC)