Talk:Metatron

I am know this will piss some off, but someone has to ask this. Yes, Michael is the oldest brother of the four Archangels as well as the oldest Archangel. But with how Cas said that he took record of creation when it was being formed and it got me thinking. Has Michael ever been confirmed as the oldest angel or was that thought up as he is was until Metraton was said to exist was the oldest to date angel? If so, it could still not condrick what Death said, about the Levianthans. As if Metraton is older than Michael it just means that Michael wasn't the first angel and just the first Archangel which is odd, give how Eric Kriple made the Archangels. Also, when creation was being formed. Now, that could mean, all of creation aka the universe both physical and ethereal realms of existance or creation like lets say Earth when the Earth was being formed. After Lucifer did say that the Earth was the last masterpiece of God, and if that is what Cas meant it just adds to what Death said too be true. But as Cas wasn't specific on the detail like when and if creation meant all of creation or at a specific event it just sepeculation. I just thought that is might be what Cas meant.: The Twilight of Your Despair 02:37, May 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Plot-holes, plot-holes! Leviathans older than Archangels, fine, but now possibly Metatron! he did say Metatron "dictated while creation was being formed". -- ImperiexSeed, 10:51 PM, May 15th 2012


 * The big bang, the moment of creation, the origins of time etc when refering to all of creation being formed. But my question is it more realistic that he meant the creation of the Earth and not all of the universe. As then it wouldn't condrtick what Death said about the Levianthans being older than angels.: The Twilight of Your Despair 03:17, May 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah. Now that you mention it like that, I'm pretty sure he meant the creation forming of the Earth. Thus, Michael is still order. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:19 PM, May 15th 2012

According to jewish lore, Metatron is the greatest angel in heaven and all of creation, so its possible the show might go down this route and introduce metatron as the oldest and strongest archangel, even above the archangel michael. I think a clue given was in the episode description of the episode reading is fundamental. The description mentions archangel involvement, yet none appeared, but they did mention metatron. Coincidence? You tell me.A.J AL 11:49, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

It should probably be noted at this point that in jewish tradition "the" Metatron isn't an angel, but rather a lesser YHVH (GOD) (it could be interpreted that he is one of the Chayot Hakodesh but it is difficult to tell for sure based on the text given). In Christian tradition he is an angel though he is not an "archangel" but rather one of the 2 Seraphim (the other is Seraphiel). As for the subject of who is older, I'm gonna side with those saying it was the Metatron, mostly because I count the leviathans as part of creation and if the Metatron wrote down creation as it was being created, then he must have come first. Either way I certainly hope he shows up later in the series as he'd be a true blue bad ass.Mad Man Moody

Metatron is just a glorified scribe. Michael is THE Ultimate Warrior. He can't be stronger, more powerful than Michael. It would make no sense. It's not in his nature or role considering the fact that he's just God's personal secretary.John432 15:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Took his life?
I'm not sure that's what was meant. I thought it just meant Metatron and God left heaven, not Metatron committing suicide. FTWinchester (talk) 16:48, November 15, 2012 (UTC)

Here's something that I don't get, Anna said that only four Angels have seen God, this was presumed to be the four Archangels. Now with Metatron in the mix, and he has obviously seen God since he was writing the Word of God tablets for it, doesn't that mean that one of the Archangels hasn't seem God? I wonder if they're going to retcon that or if they're even going to go into it.

PS, to the who's stronger thing. In the religous book that actually mentions Metatron (the Talmud I believe), Metatron was actually confused with being a second God, whereas Michael has always been merely an Angel, and Archangel, but still just an AngelSamcarter34 (talk) 02:46, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

Technically speaking, Metatron did not have to. He just have to 'hear' God talking about creation. Maybe they will clarify Metatron's status later on, he really sounds and feels like that bastard or step-brother that the whole family doesn't like to talk about. FTWinchester (talk) 14:32, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

It could be that Anna did not know about Metatron since Metatron Left heaven with God and its possible she never got to meet him. So its easy to see how she could be wrong about how many angels have seen God. Its possible Castiel only knew about him because he was upgraded into a seraph which came with a power upgrade and likely a knowledge upgrade as well. I think it is also possible Metatron is older and stronger than Michael. He was there when creation was being formed, so he had to already be there when Michael was created. Its already confirmed that Metatron is an archangel. and I dont think the episode insinuated metaron killed himself. Only that he was leaving.99.74.197.140 23:43, November 16, 2012 (UTC)

This might help with understanding Metatron and Michael as if whom is older. I think now its somewhat confirms that Metatron doesn't predate Leviathans. Let me explain, yes Castiel's Quote conflicts with Death's quote about Leviathans predating Angels. But think of this Michael is canon confirmed the oldest of the Archangels by in series and by Eric Kriple and the Leviathans predate even him. So if Metatron is an Archangel that he is younger than Michael thus younger than Leviathans. Now I will say it's more of theory than anything. But Kevin does say Metatron was an Archangel.

I am open to that Metatron might be a unique single kind of Archangel, if that is a way for him to not be part of the other four Michael, Lucifer, Raphael and Gabriel. But, I am not saying articles should be edited but it makes sense.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 00:04, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that they probably retconned the whole "Michael is the oldest angel" when they introduced Metatron. Its not inconceivable seeing as retconns are common when new writers take over. So I believe it WAS official that Michael was the oldest, but not anymore after the retconn. Erik Kripke probably never planned to bringing in Metatron into the superverse.99.74.197.140 00:58, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

That is true very true, and I forgot to add that. But as Eric Kriple is the original maker of the series offical stated it. Until in the series that Metatron is said to be older than Michael still should be classified as the oldest one, as it's a completely confirmed fact. And not as vague as Metatron is just an Archangel and whether or not he is older, younger, the same age, or stronger, weaker, or the same strength as Michael. My previous edit was to make sense IF Metatron is to be revealed as a younger Archangel.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 01:06, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, but at this point in the series, I don't see how Metatron can be retconned as the eldest archangel without being contradictive. In regards to what you said, Twlight Despair 5, I agree Michael should be maintained as the oldest until offically confirmed as otherwise as we would be only grasping at straws at this time. In addition, if Metratron is indeed the oldest archangel than it stands to reason God created him first to write down the Word of God as (the unspecified) creation was being formed which could have begun with the archangels ' own creation. 108.247.158.94 01:30, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

It is possible that Metatron left early on, so the angels had no recollection of the unknown eldest brother they had, and thought of Michael as the oldest. That seems to be the easiest way to retcon the archangel kindred.

An interesting question is from where did he 'leave'? Heaven? The entire timeline? The entire universe and into another dimension (the angels did this in the alternate timeline of 2014)? FTWinchester (talk) 04:18, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with that scenario is Sam and Dean intially learn of Metatron from Castiel, so it can't be retconned that other angels have no recollection of him as being the unknown eldest archangel as you suggested, seeing as if Cas knows who Metatron is than likely so do the rest of the angels.108.247.158.94 05:07, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, Castiel is special I think. Its possible that God gave him more knowledge as well as more power after bringing him back from the dead. Which could explain why he knew about metatron and other angels did not. Just guessing though.99.74.197.140 20:39, November 17, 2012 (UTC)

My only response to your suggestion of God giving Cas more knowledge (including the existense of Metatron) is that it sounds too contrived for an attempt to retcon Metatron as a fifth archangel who is generally unknown to the angels. 108.247.151.188 00:05, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

What if he was ascended into one, not unlike how Castiel was ascended to be a Seraph? FTWinchester (talk) 21:13, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

FTWinchester, I like that idea of Metatron being a promoted angel. Obviously, the biblical concept of him formerly being Enoch is impossible. But it doesn't seem to far-fetched to say  that God promoted him to being an Archangel. SilverRain (talk) 03:51, November 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hold, its not necessary to assume this is a recon, its never been directly stated that Metaron is older than Michael(or even properly implied) just because he wrote about Leviathans, doesn't mean he's as old as them, he was only taking down Gods words, I mean people write books about history now. I mean I know Castiel said during creation, but it strikes me there have been a lot of creations, there was the creation of the universe, the creation of Heaven, the creation of the Leviathans, the Creation of Purgatory, the Creation of Angels etc. Its never specifically stated that he ment the creation of the Leviathans, in fact being an Angel, I think its more likely he was refering to creation of angels (not Archangels, just ordinary angels). Creation's to broad to make assumtions, and most of this is simply asumentions, the fact he wasn't mentioned up until now, is simply he was never relevent to the situation, besides if he did leg it, he may have been regared as a tratior by his family, and thats why he hasn't been brought up till now, my point is there is to much speculation, we don't have any real facts at the moment. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:26, November 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * First off, we DO have some facts on the Archangel - his name, his Angelic occupation, etc. Also, I must say, it's pretty clear that in "Reading is Fundamental", Castiel was referencing the forming of the Earth. But I do agree, we don't possess much information on him and we don't know what happened to him. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:59 PM, November 28th 2012


 * Chill. We're just thinking of theories on how they could possibly retcon the archangels if they do decide that Metatron is the eldest. FTWinchester (talk) 17:41, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

Metatron and his Master
Alright, this didn't need to be a problem, but now it has turned into one. To the users who keep undoing my edit of changing "master" to "Master" need to stop. The Judeo-Christian God - God in Supernatural - is always, ALWAYS, referred to with proper nouns. Be it Him, He, God, Lord, even You. Master included. And as far as I understand, this Wiki abides by that idiom when referring to God. Unless inconsistency is desired, on Metatron's page, "master" must be "Master". It is not incorrect grammar. It isn't unnecessary capitalization. It's proper. If it isn't to remain "Master", then all instances of God-related proper nouns (He, Him, etc) on this Wiki need to be made lower case. Otherwise, stop undoing "master" to "Master". SilverRain (talk) 01:38, November 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, I agree - God, being who he is, should be referred to using capitalized letters, such as "He", "Him", and "You". However, I wouldn't go as far to say it's grammatically incorrect to use lowercase lettering when referencing him, I mean, generally, I use lowercase letters if using wordings like "he", "him" or "you", but I do capitalize "God", "Lord", or "Jesus". God is AWESOME and he should get recognition for it! However, it's not a sin to not capitalize his propositions. -- ImperiexSeed, 8:56 PM, November 29th 2012


 * Ok, this will be bloody, but I don't care. It's not correct or uncorrect to not or to capitalized a pronoun that refers to God. Only direct ones like Lord is capitalized when refered to God or a lord. But, ex. (God is all powerful,  he isn't killiable.) That is correct, But at the same time ( God is omniscient,  He  know all things.) This is correct too. It up to the writers own choice to capitalize all, some, or none of proper nouns like He, Him, when refering to God. But, it look more respectful to all people, when only titles of religionish icons are capitalized, such as God, Lord, Master etc.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 03:29, November 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright Twilight, I can accept that. I appreciate you giving me a legitimate reason as to why you feel the way you do, rather than just undoing my edit. The next question is, should all instances of "He", "Him", etc on the wiki be made lower case? SilverRain (talk) 04:05, November 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * I am just stating facts and I haven't lowercased any pronouns that refer to God here.... to my knowledge. It just depends on the person really. Like I don't know if yall should lowercase all He and Him type of pronouns. But here are some examples. You see even in the verses it's (him,his,he) is not often capitalize.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 04:47, November 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
 * Jer 29:11: For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
 * Rom 8:28: And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Like the words Son and Lord are captialize as Lord refers to God and Son refers to the title toward Jesus as the SON of God. OFTEN not alway are just title pronouns in caps.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 04:50, November 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry I'm late. Anyway, after reading Calebchiam's post on forming the consensus--here is my final proposition on the matter. True, as Twilight Despair pointed out, not even the Bible is consistent on capitalizing the pronouns. I agree with that. However, I propose that God and all of his titles, including 'Master' be capitalized. My reasons are as follows:

for goodness sake just take off the capitals  from  god, it  will only cause a fight. also in religion belief its blasphmous, is the real God in the show?? no, so keep it uncapiltalized,  its not the real God. its just fiction and to stop these debatesManga-anime90001 (talk) 11:47, December 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have always capitalized titles, at least the formal ones--King of Hell and King of Crossroads are the two best examples. If Crowley can have that honor, all the more God.
 * We have a canon reference of another character (a pagan deity, in fact) emphasizing the capitalization of God's name. Hence, like Plutus, regardless of your views, it must be accepted that the Judeo-Christian God (even if fictionalized) has a right to capitalized titles.
 * 'Master' is a title no different from other titles possessed by God. It was also written as a personal note, and therefore a personal opinion, of an archangel. Thus, if meant to be used as a title, or as a verbatim from Metatron, it should be capitalized (i.e., The Master, -OR- 'Metatron wrote, "My Master has..."'). However, if used in a neutral narrative sense, I suppose it could remain simply as 'master' (i.e., his master, he describes his master as). FTWinchester (talk) 15:06, December 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * No. It is clear cut that there are gods in the show, and there is THE God. Plutus's statement during the auction pretty much ends this debate. The only conflict here is whether the pronouns referring to God should be capitalized. FTWinchester (talk) 16:44, December 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * On this wiki, he is a fictional character, no proof he actually exists apart from books of uncertain origin taken for granted and blind-faith or cryptic, ignorant twisting of words.
 * In my country, the UK, christianity has diminished in the last century more so than in any country by far, I was raised with the bible taught as the latest in a series of mythologies, and that god and jesus, angels, demons, is purley mythology, a primative way way of explaining the universe in a very contradictory, hypocritic way, and I see 'god', as a very similar figure to odin and zeus, people living there lives in tune with rules, ignoring the free will factor that makes humanity unique.


 * I'm sorry if this annoys believers, but god is not important to me, and on this wiki at least, universal acceptance through equality of all faiths should be observed, not giving anyones panatheon priority over the other, therefore wording of any character within the series should be worded however possible, there is no rule againstt it anyway, but there is rule against killing, something christians and 'god' ignore all too well, thank you.
 * Princepurple (talk) 10:24, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

mystery of metatron
I am very confused about Metatron, now first off I do recall that in the Bible, the Seraphim although in the constant company of god, they could not look at him, this may apply to Metatron with god.

I was wondering In the season final of season 5, Michael seemed very eager to complete his destiny and angrily stated to dean "you are no longer part of the story", I have to think, was it not confirmed that Metatron was he writer of the Tablets, such as the Leviathan and demon one and most probably the angel one aswell?

Perhaps the 'story' Michael refers to is the one scribed by His Brother Metatron, and I believe that Metatron will be in God's presence, possibly taking the role of the 'blind scribe' and god won't be far from him.

I think there is a link between prophets and Metatron, since he is the scribe and they are the readers of his work, But I am leading to think he is older than Michael, perhaps the angel alpha, but I think he has not appeared due to him needing to be close to god, but that would make Michael gods General and Champion, Lucifer his most perfect specimen, Rapheal as protector of prohets and Gabriel, though not comfirmed, as his greatest messenger with Metatron as Scribe.

But I certainly do not believe Naomi to be Metatron, But I think He may make an appearence to help with the tablets, he notes to the prohets afterall.

94.0.33.236 14:05, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dude, talk page, not forum. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:08, January 31, 2013 (UTC)