Talk:Azazel

not sure if anyone knows this, but for the season four premiere, lazarus rising, pamela barnes, a psychic bobby and sam go to see, sees azazel in a vison... now, whether or not he'll be played by fredric or not remains to be seen, but if anyone wants to add that azazel will at least briefly appear in lazarus rising, feel free

You Guys have it Listed as Azazel being the Viceroy of Hell that is False Lilith holds that posistion since she is stronger Than Azazel and Lucifer's First Demon and 2nd-in-command Smallville944 22:28, May 17, 2010 (UTC) Smallville944

Wrong, Lilith was "trapped neck-deep in the pit" while "Azazel was a tyrant, but he kept us in line". Lilith was described as "a new leader rising in the west" following Azazel's death. She was merely the first human Lucifer tainted, nothing more. Azazel was Lucifer's so-called "son" (one of the original fallen angels involved in Lucifer's rebellion) and obviously the one in charge before Lilith was ever released through the Devil's Gate. 206.53.157.44 23:53, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Not an Angel
I'm pretty sure Azazel is not an Angel. Lucifer called him son, and not brother. --Darth Stefan (Talk) 09:57, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually in lore, Azazel is a fallen angel, one of the original fallen angels that fell with Lucifer. Most of Lucifer's followers call him "Father", that doesn't mean a biological relationship. Lucifer was merely leader of the sect of angels that Azazel was part of. 131.230.191.8 21:12, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

d do not angels have a more light based true form, while he MIGHT have been an angel once look at his smoke form, he is a demon now Faustfan 15:29, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * yeah but we have seen his demon smoke form, an


 * Azazel very well could have been an angel at one time, then fell and lost his grace, therefore making him for all intents human, who then could've been tortured until becoming a demon, thus shrouding him of his angelic status and rendering him as an unsually powerful demon. Also it would mean that Lucifer could attempt to hide this secret from Azazel and call him "Son" instead of "Brother". Professor Awesome 19:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC) Kesslerbeast


 * ALL demons are fallen angels in lore but in "Supernatural", all demons were once human. Lilith herself was once human and she was the strongest demon and the progenitor of the species. Since Azazel has never been stated to be any different than any other demon, Occam's razor says we just go with the assumption that he was also human once and write the page accordingly until an episode in "Supernatural" flat-out says, "Remember Yellow Eyes? Yeah, he was an angel."


 * He did say he was an angel once in the anime series when trying to convince Meg Masters mom to help him. Is that proof enough for you? Professor Awesome 00:22, July 21, 2012 (UTC) Kesslerbeast


 * A.) The anime is set in an alternate continuity, and B.) demons lie anyway (he was talking to a highly religious woman at the time and may have been just saying that to manipulate/mess with her - which, again, demons are known to do).

Vessel
Has there ever been any mention of as to who his vessel was?

When did Lilith ever grant a wish?24.185.18.5 01:57, November 24, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's ever stated who his vessel was. She offers to make a deal by standing down and quitting her plan to free lucifer, in exchange for their heads. It's not granting a wish as such but it's still making a deal. Plus she holds the contracts so I expect she could anyway.

Answer(s)
I'll get to you in a minute, champ. But I'm proud of you--knew you had it in you. (He paralizes DEAN.) Sit a spell. So, Dean...I got to thank you. You see,  demons can't resurrect people unless a deal is made. I know, red tape--it'll make you nuts. But thanks to you, Sammy's back in rotation. (Laughs) Now, I wasn't counting on that, but I'm glad. I liked him better than Jake, anyhow. Tell me--have you ever heard the expression, "If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is?"

Now Azazel says demons not only crossroads demons or all other demons he said demons popular referring to the entirety of the species. Now maybe is status as the current Ruler of Hell at the time gave him a boast like with Crowley.

DEAN So that's what this is about, these deals you're making, you don't want these people's souls.

YED No, I just want their children. I'm here to choose the perfect parents, like your Mommy.

DEAN Why her? Why any of them?

YED Because they're strong.

DEANNA peeks around the corner of the kitchen doorway, and sees what is happening, she stands there for a minute trying to formulate a plan.

YED They're pure, and they eat their Wheaties. My own little Master Race, they're ideal breeders.

DEAN furrows his brow, a little confused and a little frightened.

YED Oh, get your mind out of the gutter no ones breeding with me. Though, Mary? Man, I'd like to make an exception, so far, she's my favorite.

Behind YED, DEANNA appears

DEAN So why make the deals?

YED I need permission.

DEANNA comes quietly into the room, and tries to get to the Colt.

YED I need to be invited, into their houses, I know, I know, the- the red tape'll drive you nuts, but in ten short years, it'll all be worth it. Cause you know what I'm gonna do to your sibling? I'm gonna stand over their crib and I'm gonna bleed into their mouth. Demon blood is better than Ovaltine, vitamins, minerals, it makes you big and strong.

Understand he still had to make a deal to be invited in. That is why he either made people need to make deals like with John and Mary or location people that could have used a deal. Crossroad demons can grant deals by using a soul to make the deal and the contracts go to the current ruler or holder of deals like with Lilith before Dean went to Hell and Demon said that Lilith has all the contracts. After than Crowley had them. Now sense Azazel was the ruler at that is didn't want the souls but still needed to make deals to get inside. Inshort and idk if status as the ruler of hell is needed. He doesn't answer to anyone about deals about whether or now he keeps the souls. But he still needs a living human with a soul to cross the red-tape (the restrictions) that prevent most demons from using the deal to wrap reality to give the human their wish. But Azazel just needs the deal magic to make it happen he has more control what he does with Deals than a normal crossroad's demon.

I hope this helps. But if not this is sum it up. If Azazel or any demon would have wanted to make a demon with Soulless Sam of Season 6. It wouldn't have work. The soul is just the tool to make the Deal'e effects real. As Crowley said the Deals are a spell that give the human what they want. The soul is a needed part. But depending on the demon determines how the soul plays he part. In Azazel's case he didn't have to answer to anyone about deals but is still bound by the one singular rule no Soul to activate the spell no Deal making.: The Twilight of Your Despair 21:20, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

King of Hell
In the Salute to Season 7 thing, wasn't there a comparison of Crowley and Azazel as Kings of Hell? In other words, was Azazel (sort of indirectly) confirmed to have been King of Hell and we can add that as fact to his page?

If you can provide a link or confimation, then we can. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:44, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Lilith > Azazel
Call Azazel the former King of Hell all you want, but don't say that he is more powerful than Lilith. Kripke himself in an interview said Lilith is more powerful than Azazel.


 * Kripke: Currently that's just the meatsuit she's wearing. The reason we were inspired by Lilith is that we're moving up the demonic hierarchy. Lilith is higher than Azazel, Yellow-Eyes. She's a pretty high echelon demon, you don't get much higher than her until you start diffing into Lucifer territory.

Source

The only reason Azazel was leading the demons during the earlier years of the story is because Lilith was trapped deep in the pit, and had to be released by other demons first.

FTWinchester (talk) 12:24, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well for the first thing, strength/power and rank don't always go together with demons, for instance Guy was one of the weakest demons on the show, yet he outranked Jackson who was powerful enough to telekinetically hurl three hunters at once. Likewise Meg was shown to be stronger than her brother Tom, yet Tom she followed Toms orders. For a third example, Samhain had powers beyond any other demon (mind control, summoning, necromancy) and yet he was still bellow Lilith who didn't posses any of theses. Just because Lilith ranks higher, it doesn't mean she is more powerful, she only ranks higher because she is older, and age and power don't always go together either, Rubys seven hundred years old (as she says she was alive during the plague) and is still a very week black eyed demon, while Crowleys less than four hundred, and was still a powerful demon, even before he became king of hell.

Secondly although I somewhat agree with your point FTWinchester, I would like to point out that Azazel refeared to the demons being released as "his army" and as Lilith was being realsed it can be assumed he thought she would follow him. Also it should be noted that Lilith was not mentioned anywhere in Azazels hierachy (as confirmed in Sin City) and that following his death the demons didn't automatically kneal before Lilith, she was the "new leader" and had to conqure them before they obeyed (check the first few episodes of season three if you don't belive me.)

Plus (and this isn't part of my argument, mearly my personal thoughts) truthfully she nevered seemed that powerful, the only great power she ever showed was White light, and as flashy as that is its hardly that impressive, I mean destroy a whole building and people inside? Azazel could already do that (Pilot, Salvation, All Hell Breaks Loose One) and it was hardly a unqiue power considering Samhain also possesed it, and he was clearly much lower on the hierachy than she was, she never seemed that powerful, and never showed any powers that were either than impressive or unique. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:04, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well to be fair, lilith is the first demon and as a general rule the first is usually the strongest. Secondly, Azazel has shown more abilities than lilith but he had much more screen time and almost every power he has shown, other black eyed demons have displayed (eg. Abaddon showed memory control, brady showed pyrokinesis, tammi, meg, crowley, abaddon all showed biokinesis) the only ones not really shown by other weaker demons were weather control and dream walking. Lilith is also described with much higher respect like "a real leader" and "messiah" where as Azazel is just described as "holding them together". plus Azazel is the only demon who was loyal enough and a great enough vision to want to free lucifer while lilith doesnt care about lucifer so there's nothing in that to imply Azazel is stronger or even was king of hell. Kripke's comment did also imply strength as he went on to say " you don't get much higher than her until you reach lucifer". I think the mere fact that Azazel appeared in far more episodes, was actually trying to kill sam and dean unlike lilith and that Azazel's powers have been shown by low level demons give enough evidence to show Lilith is stronger and of higher rank. Furthermore, you can't really argue that unique abilities makes a demon very strong as you imply with Samhain as the seven deadly sins possessed very unique abilities and were not nearly as strong as azazel who displayed abilities that were mostly used by lower black eyed demons.

True first generally is the strongest, but its speculation to apply that to all, true he did have more screentime (not much more though) plus you have to put them in preportion Abbadon was a knight of hell, one of the most powerful there is, and she never showed the ability to erase memory's, mearly read them by partially possing a person, Brady never actually showed Pyrokinesis, he mearly stated he was the on who killed her for all we know he could have simply started the fire with matches (or was lying to anger Sam) and none of them (except Crowley) have ever showed biokinesis on Azazel's level, and he's pretty much a higher (or upper middle) demon any way. Now Lilith was called the real leader in comparison to Sam (who Azazel planned to make his follower,) so thats hardly that impressive, and considering the other demons called him "father" I would hardly say he was that little respected, presumably different demons have different opinions. The rest I agree with, till the bit about suggesting it claims more power, all it states is rank, and I'm arguing that rank and power don't always go together. Plus he was never trying to kill Sam, he wanted him alive, and Lilith wanted them dead (or atleast dean dead). Plus by your own argument, Lilith is weaker, as all her powers (save one) have been shown by low level demons (and no other demon has shown them to Azazel's level) so in esence that makes Azazel stronger. Besides her white lights hardly unique as Samhain also had it, while no demon to date has shown Dream walking or weather manipulation.

And I don't know why your arguing that, both Samhain and the seven deadly sins were higher demons, azazel mearly had more powerful and more unique powers. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Azazel appeared in eight episodes, lilith appeared in four, thats a lot more. Abaddon showed the ability to at the very least control someones memory and also on both occasions Azazel had to make a deal when using this power. How could he start a fire that originated from a human body pinned to the ceiling with matches? Also both abaddon and alastair harmed two individuals with biokinesis at once unlike azazel. and crowley was much more powerful. Azazel shows respect only from lucifer loyalists, as the seven deadly sins didnt care what he wanted after he died. Lilith is shown to have fear and respect  from almost all demons whether they care for lucifer or not. Lilith didnt want dean dead until after he was ressurected as she needed him to break the first seal, azazel did want dean dead because he thought john would be the one. furthermore, causing rain and storms is not nearly as cosmic a power as blowing a station apart by waving your hand. My arguement was that azazel was clearly of higher authority and was also stronger than the sins, so stating that unique abilities dont necessarily mean stronger which is what you're previous comment about Samhain implied.

True but often in Cameo's, in no episode I can think of did he appear for more than five to ten minutes. And theres nothing to say Azazel had to make a deal, mearly he didn't, after all what advantage would it be having people forget him? He was clearly unafraid of hunters (and angels). That is a point, I'm remebering the episode wrong, still we have no proof he actually did it, he mearly claimed he did, demons lie. So Azazel likes focusing on one at a time, so what, you can't compare the damge they did. And all Crowley had was a faster version of Azazels. And I find it hard to believe that only the lucifer loyalists respected him as "all" the demons followed him, and by this point, as stated by Azazel and Casey, Lucifer was considered mythical. So what if they disobeyed him after he was dead, Crowley disobeys Lilith's orders now she's dead, demon leadership generally works on fear and punishment, if there gone, why bother following them? Plus most of the who wants to kill who, would have only been gained through foresight, and Azazel tried to kill dean at point blank in devils trap, sure he saved him in MTOD but that was deal, and no demon can break a deal if made, and that was the only time he met him till all hell breaks loose. And sure its powerful, but its hardly unique (unlike azazels power) and he could also destroy buildings with ease, as he showed on mulitple occasions. You have a point there, but still they have so show something. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:21, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

lilith appeared in each scene for ten mins max. thats why its likely an effect of resurection not an ability as having dean lose his memory or john for that matter wasnt an advantage. theres nothing to prove hes unafraid of angels. hunters yeah hes definatly not afraid of hunters but what demon is? plus abaddon burned down a building in a few seconds too. Crowley caused a girl to explode by snapping his fingers which only archangels have shown the ability to do. thats much more powerful. liliths order was to let the apocalpse play out not obey lucifer. yeah with fire. lilith just lifted a hand and it blew up instantly.

True, but for your second, thats entirely speculation. The fact he didn't react in anyway when he found out dean had angel friends, and procceeded to mock them seems to implie he doesn't fear atleast low level angels. And a lot of demons seem to fear dean. How do we know she burned it down in seconds? We don't see her doing it, and a Time travel spell would take you to the same point (roughtly) considering it would have taken her more time to mix the ingredents, than it took her to arrive. Again when they did it it was with higher beings not humans, all crowley was doing was putting on a show, grated it was impressive, but what Azazel did was crueler. So he doesn't follow Lucifers orders either so my point still stands. True but still, no one cares how its done, if it had the effect, his even caused more damage, part of the building was still standing, he turned the round house to ash. Besides its still not unique.General MGD 109 (talk) 23:02, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

its speculation either way whether you thinks its an ability or an effect. that'd be because he can cover his tracks wrll. so? crowley mocks them all the time but hes much weaker. deans not any old hunter and he kicks their ass either way. crowley wasnt trying to be cruel just indimidating and i think he was successful and it showed great potential. crowley didnt disobey lilith just looked out for himself. no but azazels isnt unique either.

Not so much speculation, more reading betwen the lines. True, true, and I was talking about Azazel who was trying to be cruel. And I'm not saying it wasn't impressive or powerful, I'm just saying I don't think it proves much, Okay it appears that neither of us are going to convice the other, we could stay her arguing to judgement day, and let this argument decay into who knows what, how about we simply keep this the way it is, where it doesn't staight either is anymore powerful than the other, in my mind, and based on my evidence he's stronger or atleast equal, in your mind its lilith, lets just keep it that way okay? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:14, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

agreed. i think if its kept indifferent as far as strength goes its fair as neither of us can confirm who is stronger. as far as rank goes i believe kripke's word is law but i dont think anyones arguing on that point. thanks for the debate.


 * Well, I would have weighed in on this, but I would agree on you and the anon's decision to disagree on the matter. Personally, I take Kripke's word for it, and I wouldn't want to have to comb through every ability or description used on both demons because there are meta/external factors affecting how the two demons were described or depicted.


 * However, although I personally believe Lilith to be the most powerful demon (especially in the light of the Knights of Hell, who were among the first to fall, and handpicked by Lucifer), for neutrality's sake because of the lack of supporting canon details, I am capable of accepting statements of uncertainty on who really is more powerful. That I would agree to what we keep on the articles so we follow the wiki's policy on neutrality. FTWinchester (talk) 04:37, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Azazel > Angels.​
Can we please stop stating that Azazel can over power angels. There is no evidence to suggest this idea and it is purely speculation. The mere fact that Azazel would cover his tracks so thoroughly implies he isn't able to defend himself against them or that he is at the very least he is anxious of their involvement. So there is really nothing to imply he is stronger than Angels.

Well he never showed any fear of them, if he was really that afraid of them wouldn't he have left? Besides is really worrying that he might not be able to stop the entire force of heaven interfearing with his plans that anxious? Expecially considering it was plan to select Lucifers vessel, and his freedom. And Azazel is clearly stronger than Alastair, and Alastair is stonger than normal angels, its no so much unwaranted speculation, as it is reading between the lines, which is allowed. Still I'll wait for your response before adding it back. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:09, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, true its obvious he couldnt fight all of heaven cause no demon could do that. But Azazel clearly had a firm knowledge of the plan of the Apocalpse so he would probably know that the senior management of heaven wouldnt want to stop Azazel just the low level grunts who were kept in the dark. So it could imply he was anxious of the angels might smite him. How do we know that Azazel is stronger than Alastair? He's clearly of higher rank and a greater visionary but in the case of strength Alastairs shown to be equally as strong. Also Alastair's not really the sort who would want to free Lucifer as he just seems to love torturing others and therefore wants the Apocalpse. While Azazel is a high luicfer loyalist so it makes sense for him to be a leader but it doesn't necessarily make him stronger.

Well not neccessary, Azazel is only a demon, much of what he knows he gained from talking to Lucifer for a few minutes, and any information on heaven's opinion of him would be thousands of years out of date, so Azazel would have no idea (or atleast no certainty), that upper management would want to break lucifer out. Also Azazel is definatly stronger than Alastair, for starters Alastairs only great displays of power was his resistance and his strenght, however Azazel had many unique (mental manipulation, weather control,) and rare (biokinesis, highest display of Pyrokinesis for a demon), plus he was clearly stronger than alastair, holy water still hurt Alastair, it didn't even affect Azazel, salt still hurt Alastair, it had no effect on Azazel, iron could trap Alastair, it had no effect on Azazel, if thats not conclusive proof on him being stronger I don't know what is. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:13, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Not true, alastair wasnt burned by iron when he was restrained with it (by a devils trap) but azazel was unable to cross iron lines (albeit a devils trap but that is more of a cant exit thing than a cant enter thing). Holy water i'll grant you, although azazel was only sprinkled with it while alastair took a goblet to the face and had it injected into his veins so you could argue that intensity has something to do with it, the fact that when sam only had a flask full and ruby thought it would be useless supports this. Also azazel was knocked off his feet when shot with rocksalt so hes clearly not fully immune. Furthermore, alastair used biokinesis on two individuals at once which shows greater skill with this power and many mid tier demons have used pyrokinesis.

I don't think he couldn't cross it, mearly if he did he would be trapped in place, like what happens to any demon who crosses into a Devils trap, presumbaly it being so large wouldn't have an effect on this, and when was he knocked down by a shotgun blast? I don't recall that ever happening, besides, even if he was, he was still possesing a person, so a shotgun blast should have knocked him down regarldless. That is true about the ammount of holy water, but it still reacted when it touched him, for Azazel it was mearly water, regarless of the ammount, it didn't react (when it touches demons it normally produces steam) plus the holy water did hurt him, but so did the knife and that wasn't enough to stop him, so why should the water (my reason for why ruby said it was useless). Um, all he did was cause the momental pain, Azazel was able to cause a Hemoridge, slowly puling a person appart from the inside, just because he focused one person doesn't mean he couldn't affect two, the sheer damage in comparsion is not comparable. And none have ever demonstrated it to anywhere near Azazel's level, he was able to burn down entire buildings in minutes. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:59, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

well he wouldnt be trapped as the huge demon army would break the lines for him. Samuel shoots him when hes in the middle of a deal. Yeah but the water might have restrained him enough to exorcise him verbally but clearly ruby thought it wouldnt. well alastair was in more of a hurry and anna was his focus. plus crowleys vunerable to holy water and his level of biokinesis was far greater and his pyrokinesis was far more controlled. and if brady was telling the truth he was equally as strong with fire

Oh yeah, but still barley has any effect on him, other demons it praticaully cripples. No he wouldn have been trapped it was still a devils trapped. The huge demon army escaped because there were thousands of them, thats to much for the trap, even I'm not going to suggest Azazels as powerful as thousands of demons. Why? He even enjoyed the pain, so why should it stop him? All deans torture did little more than anger him. True again, but were getting into speculation. Crowleys is a lot weaker, he can only do simple tricks, nothing that impressive, and all his biokinesis is is a faster version of Azazels, don't forget he also caused multiple cattle mutilations. And again thats if. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:21, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah but if he knew he was going to release an army then he could just open the door himself and then leave. well they hadnt met him and even so he doesnt enjoy pain he just can shrug it off and is unimpressed by it. Azazel caused internal bleeding. crowley did this but also caused a girl to explode by snapping his finger which is something only archangels and cas have been able to do. so thats much more powerful. that was an affect not an ability, otherwise you could say abaddons lightning storms were the same as Azazels weather control. Crowleys actually displayed a much wider variety of abilities than either lilith or azazel but i would still say hes weaker than them

No demons can't move once there in a devils trap, presumably the size has no affect on this, or else they would be able to walk around the edges, or turn around, rather than be forced to stand still. Azazel never actually finished, he was interupted, and he was killing dean by slowly ripping him appart fromt he inside, although what Crowley did was flashyer, what he was doing was crueler. Plus when they do it its to higher not humans, Crowely was trying to make a big show so why not, others generally don't go so far. Plus you can't honestly be claiming you think Crowelys stronger than Azazel? The guys like upper middle. You may have a point, however Azazels was implied to be consious rather than affect, as it didn't always occur, while Abaddons was simply an affect. And I don't know, he's shown telekinesis, biokinesis, technopathy, thermokinesis and reality warping, so has Azazel. And yes he is a lot weaker. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:56, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

thats speculation. they can spin around like crowley did and fall ove so presumably they can walk to the edge. but it shows great potential as well. no crowleys weaker or equal at best. im just saying high powers doesnt mean stronger. so lilith is probably stronger than azazel. what shows it was voluntery? yeah but hes also shown invisibilty, thermokinesis and very proficent in all other powers especially telekinesis.

Okay I think were losing the plot of this argument, we started off with angels, now where onto Crowley (and I can't  believe he's equal, invisibillty sure, I'll give you that one, but still Holy water was enough to stop him, rock short was agonising to him, he's no where near as powerful) and truthfully you mention it you may have a point, but then its specualtion so it doesn't count regardless. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:07, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

yeah we have :) . he wasnt knocked unconcious by rocksalt and he recovered faster. true but i think saying azazels definately stronger than angels is also speculation. hes clearly powerful but im not sure hes that strong. i think hes just above crowley. very powerful and cunning but not strong enough to take angels.

Well techniqually it never stated he was stronger than Angels, just suggested it, because if you recal "as a higher demon, it is likely he is strong enough to take on angels, this implied by the fact he doesn't show any fear to them." I personally I think he's way higher, on lilith's level if not above. Still thats a different argument.

How about we end this by saying, something like "as a higher demon, it is likely Azazel can take on low level angels, but as he never meets any, this isn't confirmed."? General MGD 109 (talk) 23:17, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I'm cool with that, i think that's fair. i just feel to say he can over power angels is a bit of speculation. but i think that what you've just stated is reasonable and fair. sorry to keep the debate for so long.

Its cool, thanks for the debate. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:29, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

If I may interject, but I highly disagree with your suggestion, General. Stating that as a higher demon, Azazel can likely take on a low level angels, but it's unconfirmed because he has never met any is blantant speculation. It should not be added to the page as there no evidence to definitively support it. 107.201.17.52 23:40, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Do you want to reread through this entire argument? Anyway I'm not going to have the same argument twice, so sure remove it, but just for the record its not speculation (speculation is where you make claims based on no or scarce evidence) its called reading between the lines (where you simply connect the dots, between facts) now goodbye. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:45, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

There is no need for an attitude, General. In addition, depending on the extent of those facts, reading between the lines sometimes is no different than speculating. The fact is we know very little, if not any about the comparsion between Azazel and angels to definitively state the former can take on the latter. It's like stating Leviathans can do the same with the archangels based on Cas's quote alone "You know, Leviathan can kill angels.  There's a reason why my father locked them in Purgatory. They are the piranha that would swallow the whole aquarium," which we both know he was referring to either angels as species or regular ones. As I have seen you say before, if it has not been stated or shown in the series, than it should go without saying. 107.201.17.52 00:11, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You just killed your entire argument. Guesstimate, make an indirect inference - hypothesize what's already been proven. Alastair, a Demon, has overpowered Castiel, an Angel, and Lilith and Azazel are stronger than Alastair. So, therefore, if they fought, both Lilith and Azazel could battle and Angel. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:44 PM, February 10th 2013

First of all, I find your words to be very belittling, ImperiexSeed, as such I offended as well as I strongly suggest that you start being respectful to other users' opinions if you want to remain an Admin. Now in regards to the comparision to Alistair overpowering a pre-Serarph Castiel as proof, I find that insuffecient as he accomplished that feat once, so we do not know how he would fair against other angels in the same class as Castiel at the time nor any others below archangels and in turn Azazel and. Lith as well. As I said before, we know very little, if not anything about the comparision between Azazel and angels to consider the likeyness that the latter could take the former down as fact. Escpecially because as the General pointed out himself, Azazel has never met any angels, so stipulates it can not be confirmed. As such, it is indeed speculation as it has yet be stated nor proven to  be true in  the series at this time. 107.201.17.52 02:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well actually, he may not have directly fought them, but he was certainly aware of them, as shown in 'the begining' and capable of covering his tracks from them.

But on the first confrontation with Alastair alongside his 2 demon minions, with Uriel, Castiel fought  Alastair while Uriel used the angel hand kill thing, but castiel attempted it on Alastair the ability failed and he at least evenly fought him, before willing vaporizing his own vessal.

Also at what point is it believed Castiel became Seraph? because in season 6, I remember him shoving a then king of hell crowley across the room into a wall and cracking it, visivally shaking the demon, were Crowley gets the nerve to think he can ever face Castiel I don't know.

But back to Azazel, I think he could stand a Seraph, as although not stated, it is alluded to the Knights of hell being 'very pure and very strong' were hunted down by Archangels, suggesting only they could kill such an ancient demon, of which I believe Azazel was one of, and Lilth trembled at the idea of a being in the same tier as her creator, and fled to prevent ending up like the knights, so yes, I certainly believe that Azazel and Lilith to overpower a Seraph and Alastair at least would not go down easy.

Princepurple (talk) 02:27, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

King of Hell
There is nothing in the show that states that azazel was ever the king of hell and as designer of the master plan of course he was commanding any demons that were on earth. plus the fact meg didnt care about the master plan shows azazel wasnt commanding every demon on earth so thats not just speculation its wrong. Stating that azazel is of high rank in hell is fact and clear but saying he was the highest in rank is speculation.

Okay one it doesn't actually state it, it just suggests it, your alternative is stating he's probably high in rank, thats daft he's definatly very high in rank in hell. Two what are you talking about? It was confirmed he was the designer of the plan, it was him that found Lucifer, it was him that organised the plan to free lilith, it was him who presumably came up with the seal breaking (that last bit might not be true but the other two are), He was the plan's architect. And what makes you say he wasn't comanding all demons on earth? In every one of his apperances he's got many demon lackys, don't forget before the gate opened, demons were are rare phernomana, plus Bobby states in All Hell breaks Loose that since recently, all the demonic activity has spiked, demonic possesion is at record high, and demonic omens are centered around the devils trap, Azazel even admits it was him who gave the orders for this. Plus on every occasion other demons are mentioned, he calls them "My" he's clearly there leader. And Meg was obeying him, he simply hadn't filled her in on the plan yet, whose to say she wasn't obeying the plan? Surely killing of all the hunters was a good idea as they were interfearing in his activities, plus it hits the winchesters personally. Next It doesn't state it, it mearly suggests it, and gives the possibility that he is just the highest demon free, I'm trying to be leanent, but some people just seem to ignore the evidence, and then you accuse me of speculation? I don't know. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:23, February 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Um....actually, he's not of the highest rank - Lilith is (per, Creator Eric Kripke's own words). He is, however, (apart) 'of' the highest hierarchy. In-verse, it's said that he held the entire demon faculty (Black-Eyed, Crossroad demon (Red-Eyed), and presumably White-Eyed) together. However....again, he was not the highest demon, Lilith was. I came to learn that. There are many quotes that imply that Azazel was the King of Hell at a point. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:43 PM, February 26th 2013


 * The demon signs were higher because the plan was in motion and they finally had a goal to achieve but that doesnt show anything for azazels authority just that most demons supported him. and meg clearly says "i dont give a rats ass about the master plan" so obviously not every demon was obeying azazel as she wasnt. killing the hunters doesnt relate to the plan as thats what demons do anyway, she just wanted revenge. azazels comment about his army is irrelevant as the army had nothing to do with the master plan. freeing lilith and finding lucifer a vessel was the point. azazel also couldnt break the seals as lilith had to do it as well as be the last one. plus lucifer told him about the seals. There is nothing to suggest azazel was "king of hell" just that he was of high rank and very crafty by creating the master plan but that doesnt mean he is the highest rank, held that position and controlled every demon on earth. no quote realy states he was "king". tyrants arnt necessarily powerful, they just inspire fear and are dicks. and her quote that "he held us together but when you did him in IT fell apart" implies the plan fell apart not hell and holding us together sounds more like a general than a king.
 * Futhermore, his rank has nothing to do with leading the plan. he led the plan because he was intelligent enough to design it but that doesnt prove he led the plan because he is of high rank. so commenting he was the highest ranking demon free is also speculation.


 * You don't seem to grasp how demons work, if demons followed the smartest one, Crowley would have been leading the show from the begging, Azazel controled all the other demons, he was stronger than all (except perhaphs lilith, thats a different debate) the demons, if he was simply a smart demon no one would have cared, most demons believed lucifer was a myth. I admit I was wrong about meg, but then she's just escaped hell, and even Lucifer had desereters, so what? Also your statements of the quotes more surport my argument than yours, its equally speculation to say thats what they mean, fromt he context it seems the leadership, as thats what they were disscussing, Azazel was directly described as the demons leaders on mulitple occasions, even by other demons, and I never said he was the highest ranking demon, I said the highest ranking free demon, as in out of hell. Which Lilith wasn't. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:12, February 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * no you seem to think rank means power or vice versa. it doesnt with demons. but there is no proof that he was the highest out of hell. they are following the smartest one as crowley is now the king. but if the smart one has lucifer as a ally of course theyll follow him. my arguement nothing proves azazel is king of hell. a general  or visionary yes maybe or even a leader but king of hell is speculation.


 * Okay this arguments getting a bit disjoined, there following Crowley because he's the strongest demon left alive, and he took over the power vacum, but he's not as strong as Azazel, Lilith or Alastair. Your also missing the point the majority of demons didn't belive lucifer was real till Lilith started breaking the seals, the demons followed Azazel, it was his plan, he ruled them, I don't personally think he ever was king of hell, as Crowley made up that title, and due to his devotion, he would have felt that was his fathers title. I'm just using it as an example, also it never states he is king of hell, it just states it was likely, because it is, there is evidence he ran all the demons, there for ruled hell, it just wasn't stated. Now is that clear?General MGD 109 (talk) 20:36, February 26, 2013 (UTC


 * you think crowley is stronger than every other demon in hell including all white eyed demons and ones as old as samhain? true but many of them believed he might return one day but werent devoted enough to finding him. they followed his plan because it was a chance for paradise on earth or for them to see their god walk the earth. the title of king of hell probably stands as it seems to be an actual position as it has been used by demons, angels ect.  i just feel there is no reason to state that azazel was probably the king of hell because theres nothing to say he was. more likely he was a high ranking, loyal follower of lucifer who gain a lot of authority through his visionary mind and full proof plan. so why not just leave it out and state what we know rather than what is possible. to the same extent you could argue lilith was hells monarch but didnt command the plan. but personally i dont think its right to say eother way


 * Wiki contributor. I'll be honest here, you're piece makes my eyes hurt - you should really capitalize the first letter of a word at the beginning of each sentence. As well as propernouns, like names, i.e. Azazel. Anyway. It's established, the demons are run by a King, and each eon (or, a time period) has one. Currently, it's Crowley....for some reason. Samhain, DEFINITELY, would be a better benefactor for the crown of Hell, but....seeing as he literally can't leave until every 600 years, he wouldn't have much widespread authority except in the domain of Hell. So, Hell, at every point in history, has a King, who governs it's body - the demonic army. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:35 PM, February 26th 2013


 * Besides, it's not always about who's the most powerful. Crowley is only the king because he's savvy and took advantage of the chaos that followed Lucifer's re-imprisonment. No, he's not as strong as demons like Samhain, but he's an opportunist who got where he is through careful strategy. That being said, Azazel was described by Casey as a "tyrant" who "held them all together," which sounds a lot like a king to me. Ensephylon (talk) 01:15, February 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * My apologies, But that's what I'm saying. A tyrant who held people together sounds more like a general not a monarch. But either way, it is never stated that Azazel was the King of Hell or was the strongest demon free from Hell, therefore it shouldn't be stated on the page.


 * Thanks for the capitalization and grammar. :) ImperiexSeed appreciates it. Anyway. Well.... (at that point in time) Azazel was, indeed, the strongest demon that was out of Hell. But, when Lilith was freed, it could've changed. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:51 PM, February 27th 2013


 * I have no objection to saying that Azazel was a high ranking demon or the leader of the master plan because both of those are confirmed. I just feel it's wrong to assume that Azazel was the king of hell because that position could potentially have belonged to another demon. And it's also possible that there was a stronger demon free from hell who was like Samhain (powerful but had no sense of vision, limited intelligence and had no interest in Lucifer and no plan). Would it not just be fair to keep the page as it is with no references to the king of hell but just state he ranked very high in hell's hierarchy?
 * Okay lets just keep it the way it is now, it seems to suit everybody, and I find in these discussions genrally the only way to end them in these circumstances, is to compromise. So lets just keep it saying he ranked very high in the Hierachy, and was leader of Lucifers plan, and the demons on earth. General MGD 109 (talk) 23:04, February 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hmmm the idea of Azazel being the most powerful free demon is interesing as the others were confined in hell, like Crowley is now the most powerful free as at least one known white eyed/semi-white eyed demon being Samhain, is trapped in his own area or cage in hell.


 * However, there is the matter of Alastair, who, like Azazel, could travel between Hell and Earth at will, Alastair himself stating he was last on earth in Poland 1943, during WWII but prefers Hell, why was he not king? I'm guessing it is because he was content with his position in hell as grand inquisitor, training Azazels 'daughter', Meg himself in the art of torture, so likely had no intention of contesting for the crown, but indeed, Azazel was likely King, although I have always seen him as Hells General, seemingly knowing of Lucifers Crypts, entrusted with that information, strongly suggesting he was one of Lucifers first and very much favoured, I still think he was leader of the knights at least, but i'm going off topic, I believe Azazel was indeed among the most powerful and high ranking of Demons of any age, thinking back when the demon of pride suggesting that if Azazel was alive he would, possibly out of fear, follow him "now that your yellow eyed friend is dead, we don't HAVE to" or something along those lines.
 * Princepurple (talk) 01:14, March 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know why Alastair, or any other demon, would deny the opportunity of assuming the position as King of Hell. It seems to give the holder an elevation in power, as seen in Crowley. Well, yes, he was a general, but also the King. -- ImperiexSeed, 9:20 PM, March 24th 2013


 * Yeah I actually believe he was the originally intended king, by lucifer himself, sure lilith came first along with some others, but Azazel was his prize demon, the one created to be king, Azazel's knowledge of the crypts grants high chance that he was around to be 'hand picked' directly giving his and lucifers implied prior knowing before he found him in his cage, so the idea suggested about different era's having different kings, I can't say i'm up for, more so that Azazel was the single King for a very long time, crowley eventually replacing him, although lilith obviously held the ruling position during her time out of hell, Azazel fully aware of her and were she was.
 * Princepurple (talk) 01:45, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

Advanced Telekinesis
I have noticed something about Azazels grasp of telekinasis, he seemed to, on every occasion unless i'm mistaken, to use it with any gesture, pinning women to walls, he also does this to Sam and Dean when in Johns body, and while effortlessly holding sam, he also, with only a gaze, caused severe biological trauma to dean.

He also does this when dean attempts to shoot him with the colt, then, whilst holding it mid-air, does that whatever you call it, pulling back the clip thing and getting ready to fire (not seen season 2 in a while though, he may have held it).

The only other demons I remember not using telekinasis are Tom and Meg, Azazels 'children', with lilith always using gestures, as did Alastair, possibly Abaddon, and also Crowley.

Does this mean Azazel's ability in the field of telekinasis was supirior to others? or does it just imply that he did not wish to use gestures???

Princepurple (talk) 01:33, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

You have a point, virtually all telekinetic users use gestrues, while Azazel mostly used simply his mind, I always assumed gestures were either focusing or directing the telekinetic energy, and Azazel was simply so powerful that he didn't need to either focus or direct his powers. I make a mention of this on his page. Your right, Lilith, Alastair and Crowley always used gestures, as did the seven deadly sins, Brady, Tammi, Meg and Tom all used gestures. As far as I remeber Abaddon did it once, but the majority of the time she used gestures. I guess its simply a sign of Azazel's power. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:48, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

I  think there really is no clear correlation between use of gestures and the magnitude of telekinesis/power. A gesture can accompany a feat that is either weak or powerful (think how a snap of a finger can obliterate an archangel, while it could also accompany something as simple as heating the handle of a blade). Granted, those examples did not cover telekinesis alone, but a great magnitude of telekinetic display could also be accompanied by a gesture (Lilith forced every staff of the police station to look while she is flaying Nancy's Skin, both of which are great feats by themselves). Also, it's not true that Azazel never used gestures. Watch In The Beginning--he (while possessing samuel) used his hand to fling Dean away from the Colt. FTWinchester (talk) 03:43, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I also took a look at All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2 -- Azazel used gestures in there, too. The clearest one is when he forced Sam to 'sit a spell', he held his hand up, and then using his other hand to pin Dean against a tombstone a second time. FTWinchester (talk) 03:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I think as we don't really know how telekinesis works, we should stick to demons when discussing this. You have a point a lot of beings use gestures, however angels comonly use it without them. Onto demons, upto date as far as I can remeber no other demon (save Abaddon) has ever used telekinesis without gestures, admitadly Azazel did use gestures a few times, but the majority of his use, was mearly thought. I think that counts as something interesting, as your statement on lilith's power, I personally doubt that that ever happened, but thats a different debate. You have to admit the fact that he is the only demon who doesn't use gestures for telekinesis, most of the time is interesting. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:35, March 26, 2013 (UTC)