Talk:Angels

So the original War in Heaven was fought between those angels loyal to God and Lucifer with his angel followers. Lucifer was defeated and cast out of Heaven by the archangel Michael. But what happened to the other angels loyal to Lucifer? All demons were orignally humans and not fallen angels. Besides Lucifer, the fallen angels we've encountered thus far, with the exception of Gabriel, fought for Heaven in the War and fell long after Lucifer was imprisoned. Has the show ever explained what happened to Lucifer's original army after his defeat?

Johns1836 23:24, May 17, 2012 (UTC) Johns1836

No, but the show doesn't exactly go 'by the book' either. In the show, Pestilence was the pale horseman and Death was the white horseman, even though it's supposed to be the other way around. Also Uriel isn't an archangel like he's supposed to be, and I do believe that Azazel was an angel kicked out of heaven and into the desert by Uriel, which was never touched on in the series either. Long story short, don't expect the show to deliver all the facts. (Leviathan657 23:55, May 17, 2012 (UTC))

Actually, and because im not an expert at all religions i'll say christianity, but according to christianity, demons arent humans, demons ARE the fallen angels that followed lucifer. So as stated by Leviathan657, the show adds it's own twists, while still maintaining some realism. Winchester7314 04:51, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Why is this locked?
Why is this page locked? -- MisterRandom2 01:43, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll certainly unlock it. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:05 PM, May 24th 2012

I'm unable to add a reply to the other topic directly for some reason.

One can assume that Michael, Raphael, Zachariah and all those who fought against Lucifer and his army killed every single angel. Seems like Lucifer was the last surviving angel as he was the only one thrown into Hell.L4D2 Ellis 01:46, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

What the.... Um, ok. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:12 PM, June 30th 2012

Naomi seraphim?
Shouldn't Naomi be listed as a seraphim as she is clearly must stronger than Castiel (who is confirmed as a seraph) and seeing as it's speculated that zachariah  is a seraphim.

Thats entirely speculation we have no idea what type of angel Naomi is, we count Zachariah as one as he gives a description of himself that matches the traditional description of a seraphim, plus I think he was confirmed as one by one of the producers. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:53, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Can you please send a link where the producers state that cause I'd like to see it. And lore is not reliable when comparing it to canon because facts in lore and canon are completely different.

Smite/Smiting
Having seen some of the previous seasons, I think that Molecular Combustion is an inappropriate term to describe the power Lucifer/Raphael used on Castiel, and Godstiel/Soulstiel used on Raphael, respectively. In canon, the move was described as 'smiting'. Perhaps we should start rewriting. FTWinchester (talk) 22:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Fallen Angels
All angels fell to earth. And now? Will they keep their powers? Were they turned into normal humans? I know their wings were burned when they fell, but they could hold their powers, right?

Well when angels fall, they lose there grace, and with it the majority of there powers, as shown with Castiel and Anna they still maintain some abilities, but these are simply echos of there true power, so in esesence all angels should be human. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:08, May 19, 2013 (UTC)

But when anna fell she personally ripped out her grace and when she retrieved it she still wasn't capable of going back to Heaven. Plus Naomi says cast out as Lucifer was cast out and, while that's still lucifer, he possessed all of his abilities. Plus when Castiel fell he still had some of his powers like anna. So it's possible that all angels on earth (except castiel) have the same power Anna had after she fell and after she retrieved her grace.

I don't think how you feel matters, Gabriel volunterely left and he still had all his powers, plus I don't think Archangels count, Lucifer was still as powerful as he had ever been despite being cut of from heaven for thousands of years. Like I said they may retrain some echo of the powers, but not much, unless they're seraphs, who seem more resilent. If they keep there grace, then there power will presumably slowly fade like it did with Castiel. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:25, May 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, at this point, it's ambiguous as to if Archangels possess a grace. They seem to possess innate, raw power. As mentioned, both Gabriel and Lucifer retained all of their power despite their "fall", unlike other Celestial beings. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:29 PM, May 20th 2013

Seraphs.
Ok, can we please clear this up because many have brought up this point and no one has answered it. Why are we assuming that Zachariah is a seraph? The fact he says he has six wings and that seraphs in lore have six wings is irrelevant because the facts in canon and in lore are completely different. Examples: Archangels are the highest rank in canon, but they are the second lowest in lore. Azazel is a fallen angel in lore, but in canon he's a corrupted human soul. Leviathan is a giant sea monster in lore but is a species of monsters created by god in canon. See my point. So, stating that Zachariah is a seraph because he has six wings is speculation because nothing in the show states seraphs have six wings. Zachariah could be one of the numberous other ranks of angel or even a made up rank. So why are we calling him a seraph. The only confirmed seraph is Castiel. And even then there are clearly other ranks above that as Naomi is as strong than Castiel. So please explain.


 * Your point is validated. But Castiel isn't even a Seraph phisologically, but, as you said, he's the only one canon's explicitly named a Seraph. While there are some differences, the show's content largely hinges on lore. -- ImperiexSeed, 2:44 PM, May 21st 2013


 * To the OP, if I have read correctly there are two types of Archangels. Archangels with a capital A and archangel with a lower case a. The one with the lower case are the angels above regular angels. Archangels with the capital signify the highest of all the angels, being the seven most powerful Seraphs.
 * But what you have said about Zachariah is true. Until it is validated, even I'm sticking with him being a Seraph due to description. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 18:57, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * I see him as a Seraph, but there will always be those skeptics and doubters who are willing to argue nonstop about it. He says, in his true form, he has four heads and six wings, and that matches the description of a Seraph to a T. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:01 PM, May 21st 2013


 * Not exactly. The six wings yeah, but the four faces are descriptions of Cherubs. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 19:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * But the point still stands that only Castiel has been confirmed as a Seraph (after he was resurrected) so it should not be stated that Zachariah is a Seraph and it is possible he one of several different types of angel.
 * Admitadly its a bit of hand weaving, but its not speculation, speculation is when you make up facts, this is simply connecting facts that the show didn't connect. As only Seraphs are confirmed to exist (along with Cherubs, which are far to weak, normal angels and Archangels) and he doesn't fit any of those catagories, saying he's a Seraph based on this, is simply a case of connecting the facts. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:33, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm a little uncomfortable really because the show never mentioned him to be a Seraph,
 * but on the other hand, there were several implications throughout the series that A) he was no ordinary angel, B) was on a different class altogether, Tumblr_l0drytyVUd1qzm7yko1_500.jpg
 * and his description of his true form's wings really caused me to think of Seraph right on the spot (four faces of a Cherub is invalidated because of the presence of the cupids). If it is confirmed in an interview, then I accept its canonity. Could I see a link though, if possible? FTWinchester (talk) 02:05, May 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, that picture's creepy, but funny. I don't know if it's true, but last I heard about Zachariah's celestial status, Misha said that he was an Archangel. I don't believe that though. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 03:18, May 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just because his rank has not been mentioned doesn't mean that we should just shove him into whatever rank fits. He may be of an angelic rank not yet mentioned. If you're saying Zachariah must be a seraph because he's not an archangel, cherub or normal ranking angel then by that logic Naomi should also be a seraph as she is equal to castiels rank if not higher. If someone can find firm evidence ( an interview or comment) that shows Zachariah is a seraph and not of unknown rank then I accept it but if it can't be proven it should not be stated and should be removed.

Humans... Angels?
If a Angel can become human, can the opposite happen? I mean, Anna was a human before regain her Grace, right? There should be a way to a human soul become in Grace.


 * No, a human soul cannot become a Grace - and an Angel's Grace cannot become a human soul. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:03 PM, June 3rd 2013


 * Of course it can. Castiel was given a soul in Season Gr8 finale. So what, they can't have both seeing as how Castiel is human now. Demons can become human, humans can become demons, Angels can become human, but humans can't become Angels? - Kesslerbeast


 * That's a bit different. For one thing, we have no idea how an angel gains a soul when they fall and lose their grace. I do no believe a human can become an angel unless God himself intervenes. Also you're supposed to sign your post with four squigly lines (~)  L4D2 Ellis (talk) 02:38, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would have but I'm on my phone - Kesslerbeast


 * No, Castiel's Grace was taken from him, and wouldn't turn into a soul. He would eventually generate a soul. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:26 PM, June 4th 2013
 * Whatever that's being discussed here is pretty pointless. The writers, if they have their way,         would even make a human an angel if they wanted to. RaghavD  The One and Only  16:34, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever that's being discussed here is pretty pointless. The writers, if they have their way,         would even make a human an angel if they wanted to. RaghavD  The One and Only  16:34, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, only because the current writers suck with their continuity problems. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 16:43, June 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, yes, the writers could do anything they want to with it. But to say an Angel's Grace turns into a soul, at this point, is flawed. It would be more accurate to say a depowered Angel generates a soul. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:44 PM, June 4th 2013
 * Yeah, we don't have much to go with. Should wait for Season 9. Again, I don't hope that we will be getting our answers, coz each season is being treated differently with the events and continuities of the previous season being totally forgotten by the writers. RaghavD  The One and Only  16:52, June 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we don't have much to go with. Should wait for Season 9. Again, I don't hope that we will be getting our answers, coz each season is being treated differently with the events and continuities of the previous season being totally forgotten by the writers. RaghavD  The One and Only  16:52, June 4, 2013 (UTC)

In Hammer of the Gods, when Gabriel dies, he says that he is the third oldest and that when the new baby came along Lucifer got jealous..so wouldn't that make Rapahel the youngest and not Gabriel?

Jemmaleena (talk) 21:20, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

I don't rember that line, give me a minute while I check the transcript. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Nope he never said that, he just didn't bring Raphael up in the converstation. General MGD 109 (talk) 21:57, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

How many angels fell?
I'm wondering how many angels were there that actually fell? I mean sure it looked like hundreds, but it was previously stated on multiple occasions there weren't that many angels left, following the civil war and soul enhanced castiel distroying all Raphael's followers. So how many do you think fell? Millions or simply a few thousands? General MGD 109 (talk) 22:00, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Definitely not millions. In fact I have doubts there were even millions in the first place when God first created them. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Naomi said there would be thousands of angels walking around on Earth if Metatron completed the spell. L4D2 Ellis (talk) 22:39, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Probably in the thousands somewhere. He Who Shall Not Be Named By Mortals (talk) 22:40, June 23, 2013 (UTC) Kesslerbeast

Well, in the show and after Castiel's killed thousands in Heaven. I would say several thousand, after all Naomi said, thousands walking the Earth, if Metatron could finish the spell. Now in real lore, most doesn't alure toward an exact number of angels. However, in one story there were countless angels, to ranging toward 7 million, in reference toward the number seven being a holy reference number. But, in the series, Castiel did say if I remember right their count weren't infinite, but called them the Armies of Heaven, early in season 4, the rising of the witness episode.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 23:15, June 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * We really don't know how many Angels God created. Really, we can't annunciate the exact number of Angels made - only guess. And there's no point in doing that. God made more than 1, and when Castiel had all the souls of Purgatory, he demolished a lot of them. And there's no way to, accurately, know how many fell. So, this question can't be answered. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:39 PM, June 24th 2013


 * Well not accurately, I was just wondering what sort of numbers there be dealing with, millions, thousands or hundreds. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:42, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, well if I were to hypothesize, I'd say hundreds. But again, there's no way of knowing the EXACT number of Angels. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:11 PM, June 25th 2013

Seraphs.
Ok, this has been argued for some time and has never officially been answered: why is zachariah considered to be a seraph? Many have said that because he states he has six wings that this proves he is because serpahs have six wings in lore. But lore and canon are completely different (eg. Azazel is a fallen angel in lore, in canon he's a corrupt human soul). Furthermore, he says he has four faces one of which is a lion, which in lore describes a cherub. So, either way, the fact he has six wings doesn't support the fact he is a seraph. The only angel in the show that can be confirmed as a seraph is Castiel after he is brought back (as it is stated). There are about nine different types of angel in lore and Zachariah could be any one of them. And even then, the shows creators could easily have made up a rank of their own. On top of that, if it is being assumed that Zachariah is a seraph, why doesn't the same apply for Naomi? The general view seems to be that seraphs rank directly under archangels, and Naomi is more powerful than Castiel (a seraph) so logically, if we're assuming that seraphs are the second highest rank, Naomi can only be a high ranking seraph. There is nothing on the show to suggest that Zachariah is a seraph. It's just a random assumption. Like saying that Alastair and Azazel are knights of Hell. There is no evidence in canon to support this idea. So, can someone please explain why it keeps being stated?


 * Ok, first of all, Naomi could be a Throne or a Wheel. Don't jump the gun, and just say, she's a Seraph. Zachariah gave us an insight into his form, while we know absolutely nothing about Naomi's rank. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:16 PM, June 27th 2013


 * That still doesn't support the idea that Zachariah is a seraph. I'm not saying that Naomi is a seraph but there is no reason to say that Zachariah is. Furthermore, Zachariah gives insight into his form but he never states that it is the form of a seraph. All that can be said about his rank is that he is higher than average angels but below archangels, which is the same with Naomi.


 * An insight into the physiology of an Angel points to their type. I think, to a degree, the writers are looking for us to connect the dots. I agree, Naomi is not a low-tier Angel, such as Rachel, but we really don't know what she was. But, presumably, Zachariah was a Seraph. So, it's either Zachariah was a Seraph or a Cherub. Zachariah couldn't have been a Cherub (because of where they fall on the Angel scale), unless he was like the admiral Cupid. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:46 PM, June 27th 2013


 * But there is nothing to imply he was either a cherub or seraph as there are about 7 other types of angel in lore and even then they flearly weren't following lore 100%. Just because seraphs have six wings in lore doesn't mean they do in canon. If you're saying that then you also have to accept that seraphs are the highest rank under archangels, therefore naomi can only be a seraph. Its possible zachariah is a seraph but again its like saying azazel is a knight of hell. Its a complete assumption and is never stated. The only confirmed seraph is Castiel and its not even stated he has six wings, so it's possible seraphs in canon don't possess six wings and four faces like Zachariah does.


 * Thats also speculation, plus the fact thats its made clear that in supernatural Canon Cherubs are the weakest of all angels, and Zachariah is the strongest non archangel angel so that leaves Seraph. Its possible she is a seraph but appart from her high Ranking position we never get any indication of that. Plus Naomi works in inteligence, rather than millitary so its difficult to compare the two. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:15, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * ::That makes no sense. You've just stated that "Cherubs are the weakest, Archangels are the strongest, Zachariah must be a seraph". ? Zachariah's clearly not a soldier either. Zachariah could be a throne, dominion, virtue, power, principal or some made up rank by the show. It's never stated he is a seraph or that he has the physical appearence of a seraph in canon. You can say he is of very high rank or that he answers to archangels but calling him a seraph is pure speculation. It's no different from saying that alastair is a knight of hell. There is no evidence for it and unless someone can supply confirmative proof that Zachariah is a seraph and not just a high ranking angel, it should be changed. Can anyone give such evidence?
 * Thats difficult to say, I was simply using the process of illimination, you stated his form could mean he was either a cherub or a seraph, I said it was impossible for him to be a cherub, leaving a seraph. Now your right, its never been officially been stated that the form he describes as his own, is what Seraphs look like in the shows canon. But its also never been stated that it isn't, as such until it isn't its more likely it does match the lore, as thats what the show is based upon. Now Seraphs are very powerful and high ranking Angels, as was Zachariah, that coupled with the fact this his description of himself matches what the contextual discription of a Serphium look likes counts as evidence he is. Until its proven that's not what Seraphs look like. We also have to take into acount the fact that the writters wouldn't have given him a matching description unless they intended him to be one. General MGD 109 (talk) 20:52, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * That still doesn't prove Zachariah is a serpah. That's just assuming that the producers intended him to be one, which again can't be proved. It could just be a coincidence. It makes more sense to assume that Zachariah is an angel until its confirmed that seraphs in canon have six wings and four faces, rather than state he is a seraph until its confirmed seraphs dont have six wings and four faces. It's not stated on canon, so it's wrong to assume it. You can call it connecting dots if you like but it's still not fact or suggested on the show so it shouldn't be stated on the pages.
 * Your claiming that the writers simply managed to get the description of a Seraph correct by accident and applied it to the strongest candidate for one in the show, by accident? That's got be the longest shot I've ever heard of. It also goes agaist the ammount of research the writting team generally do for the episode. Like I said it isn't specifically confirmed, however its as good as, and thats good enough for this wiki. Untill its proven he's not its more likely he is. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:51, June 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I may (pretty much repost what I said in a same discussion above), I am not saying Zachariah being a Seraph was stated in canon, but to say that he is just an angel would also contradict his abilities shown in canon which appeared to be vastly superior to what the other angels could do, as well as his organizational/political power shown in canon.


 * It's a Terrible Life
 * Dean: [...]  You're an angel , aren't you?
 * Zachariah: I'm Zachariah.
 * Dean: Oh great. That's all I need is another one of you guys.
 * Zachariah:  I'm hardly another one, Dean. I'm Castiel's superior. [...] After the unfortunate situation with Uriel, I felt it necessary to pay a visit. Get my ducks in a row.
 * The Monster at the End of This Book
 * Zachariah compels a prophet (and later on Sympathy for the Devil, implants a false memory on the prophet)
 * Granted, 'superior' makes it confusing with Anna Milton, but in the context of Zachariah, he explicitly mentioned he was hardly another one--which could plainly mean he was simply superior in rank, but we also have a description of him matching descriptions for Seraphs. Add that to the abilities he had demonstrated, and it's pretty obvious he's not an ordinary angel. The next question becomes what kind exactly? Now comes the request for the source/citation of Zachariah being a Seraph, which I hope someone would provide. FTWinchester (talk) 06:23, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * It was never explicitly stated inverse, that  'he's a Seraph', so, he could be another type of Angel (Dominion, Virtue, Throne, or wheel). But, personally, I sincerely doubt it. No such Angel types have been even mentioned in the series, while Archangels, Seraphs, Angels, and Cherubs has. He's definitely not an Archangel, he's not a cupid, so that leaves a very high Angel or Seraph. And I think, given the dialogue in "It's a Terrible Life" and "Dark Side of the Moon", we can weld him into one of these two categories - a very high ranking Angel, or Seraph. Well, Alastair could be a Knight of Hell; he's extremely old. But that has never been intoned in the series. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:49 PM, July 1st 2013

Angels after the fall
Angels, after they had fallen, appear to be weaker. For example, they cannot seem be able to teleport themselves as they use to did, perhaps due to they no longer having wings.

Indeed, they do seem a lot weaker. I mean Ezekiel collapsed from physical trauma, Hael needed to use a board to overpower Castiel (who is now mortal) and couldn't heal or say in her vessel. Those Angels that attacked Dean seemed stronger, but they went down easier. I think the fall has had a bad effect on there powers. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:04, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

It would appear that the degree of their strength (or what remained of it) is highly individualized. However, we do know that they at least retain a certain degree of supernatural strength, and almost intact angel radio telepathy and supernatural perception. FTWinchester (talk) 02:58, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

Ezekiel
How was Ezekiel able to resurrect Charlie and Castiel if he is cut off from Heaven? Clearly he is of high enough rank to do so but unless we change the what's written on the page, it implies he is a seraph.

Indeed it does, unless there are ranks between a regular angel and a seraph. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:36, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Well if we assume there is then we can't claim Zachariah is a seraph and if we assume that there are only cherubs, angels, seraphs and archangels then Ezekiel should be listed as a seraph.

I was just speculating. But I think we should wait a little while, see what is revealed about Ezekiel before we jump to conclusions. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:53, October 30, 2013 (UTC)

Monster Possession?
Has it ever been hinted or implied that Angels, or demon's for the matter, can possess beings other than humans, such as Monsters?? I'm just curious as I'm sure demons would have fun running around in a vampire, or an angel asking the likes of a tame werewolf for consent. Do you think it would be possible?

Princepurple (talk) 00:39, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

An angel possessing a monster would probably simply kill the monster. As for demons, however, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe they can, but seeing as nobody has done it yet, and considering how demons in season 6 viewed monsters simply as beasts to be hunted, I think it's a matter of choice and pride on the part of demons. FTWinchester (talk) 00:56, November 3, 2013 (UTC)