Talk:Leviathans

Who's the older creature, Archangels or Leviathans? Older than normal angels, sure, but it's just very difficult for me to believe that they could be older than the archangels, I mean, they're archangels for crying out loud, the strongest things, besides God and Death. Please share your thoughts on this. -- ImperiexSeed, 7:32 PM, September 24th 2011

I very much doubt the Leviathans are stronger than even your average angel it took the combined efforts of (what is assumed to be) hundreds of them to overpower and take out Castiel. That being said they where dangerous enough to lock away in purgatory, I don't think even the angels know how to kill them, they can jsut seal them away.-- Balamyd 02:21, October 2, 2011 (UTC)Balamyd

Is it only me who thinks that Leviathans seem like a really crappy enemy? Sam and Dean dropped a car on one and it just healed eventually..I was expecting the car too like split in half :3, but yeah, they do seem a little crappy right now:/ especially if God created purgatory just for them originally.. Hennessey Frost 22:38, October 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * You're not, but just give it some time, and we'll see.. About the car thing, I thought something similar, and it was odd how it actually worked. However, I do believe they're fairly strong, but it's hard to tell now, as the show has just started. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:50 PM, October 18th 2011

Image for the infobox
I think we should put a profile picture of the article. User:David Kaique

Fine, I'll do it, but I'm specifically waiting for the to show give us a possible true form, cause if we just put down one of their vessels, it would only seem weird, considering not all of them look like that. Like with the demon page, I really like that picture cause it gives you a sense of what they really are, which couldn't be delivered by a vessel photo. Kindly, -- ImperiexSeed, 5:14 PM, October 15th 2011

Leviathan girl
One leviathan possessed that little girl Annie. Then, while still in the girls body, shapechanged into Dr. Gaines and killed the real one. So what's gonna happen the to little girl IF the leviathan ever leaves the body? Will it revert back and she'll okay or is the girl dead?OJOLara 22:54, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Leviathan Power
The strength of leviathans seems to be inconsistent, Death said God created purgatory for the sole purpose of containing the leviathans, so it safe to assume they were more powerful than Angels/Demons/Humans, but in 'Shut Up, Dr Phil', a witch, Don Stark, overpowered and stunned one - also given that he later said 'spell only lasts for a few days', he wasn't trying to kill it, but possibily could have. And Supernatural lore has established that witches get their power from demons, and the power tree kind of goes Humans - Demons - Angels, so how power can the leviathans really be?121.44.245.157 06:02, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Witchcraft is a very fluid branch of power. Remember how it could even hide people from Angels with just Hexbags? Even some spells could bind Death. So, I do not necessarily see it as breaking the lore.


 * FTWinchester (talk) 14:03, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think they are stronger than demons and angels. If demons were more powerful then Crowley wouldn't be so scary. The powers of the demons probably do nothing to leviathans just like demons vs angels.

And they probably can deactivate an angel power just like Eve.

Under trivia, it claims that they are the most powerful and indestructible foe the Winchesters have faced. I wholeheartedly disagree.....Lucifer was not only more powerful, he was also unkillable by anyone except Michael, God, and Death. Should this be discussed/changed? KevinTheDestoryer 15:22, April 30, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, there is no definite proof that the leviathan from "Reading is Fundamental" actually slew those two angels. When angels die in the show, they always go out with a luminescent explosion. The two angels only gushed black goo, similar to Castiel before he went incognito in the first episode of the season. I think the only things leviathans can do to normal angels is to wreck their vessels and cause some degree of injurious damages to the angels themselves; but not kill them.


 * Warning: Spoilers for the S7 finale; In a sneak peak clip, Castiel says that Leviathans CAN kill angels which is one of the reasons why God locked them up in Purgatory. Also, apparently, not only did Edgar kill the two angels assigned to protect Kevin, he also wiped out all (or virtually) of Cas's old Garrison while at Kevin's house. -- MisterRandom2 21:10, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

That is when killed by using an Angel-killing blade. Michael killed Anna with a touch and she just burned up or turned to Ash. Castiel and Raphael were died by being blown up like a water balloon and each time there was no bright light explosion.: The Twilight of Your Despair 20:20, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

How is Dick back in Purgatory, he doesn't have a soul, as he predated the soul as stated by Death. He should just cease to exist all together shouldn't he

I think as the leviathans are the oldest beasts, they have something like a protype for the soul, or death just ment human and monster souls.

Michael and Lucifer vs. Leviathans
Do You Think The Leviathans can take Michael and Lucifer combined or even alone!!

Yes, it has been stated and proved that Leviathans can supress Angel powers. Since they can still supress Castiel's power, despite the fact that he is cut off from Heaven and so has only his own power, shows that they do not just sever the connection to Heaven, but outright cancel out the Angels abilities. Archangels are very powerful, but they are still ultimatly angels Samcarter34 (talk) 20:33, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

What? What are you talking about? Leviathans can't supress angels powers, there just stronger than angels, they do not posses the ability to cancel there abilities, at no point did any leviathan ever show that power what so ever. So Archangels would turn them to ash without even lifting a finger. General MGD 109 (talk) 00:16, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

When Edgar attacked the two angels escorting Kevin, I distinctly remember the second angel attempting to attack Edgar to no avail. Either Leviathans are immune or they actually can suppress angelic power. If Eve could supress angelic power, then the oldest natives of Purgatory and first of God's creation possibly could. It's actually more of tomato or tomatto, regardless of the actual ability.

FTWinchester (talk) 12:09, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

But you're not talking about Archangels -- you're referencing mondane, flimsy Angels. If they're physically immune to Angelic power, then all Michael the Archangel would have to do is something so simple as tear off it's head and hurl it into space, and that's Leviathan's decomissioned. Realistically, the 4 Archangels exist on a higher frame of existence and Leviathan are simply God's first creations. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:56 PM, November 2nd 2012

Question
I know nothing about this topic, but how is saying "They are the main antagonists of Season 7" considered trivial? Usually, something "that important" is not trivial. Please explain. --Thenewguy34( Other ) 20:31, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

Supernatural Concealment
Need your opinion on this ability:

Supernatural Concealment - at least one high ranking Leviathan managed to conceal his true form from other creatures with supernatural perception. This allowed the leviathan to take angels by surprise, before killing them with his black venom.

This has been displayed by Edgar once. There are two exceptions, but both are with special cases--Castiel hosted all the leviathans within him and thus knew each of their true visage, and Crowley knew who Dick Roman was when he first tried to strike a deal with him.

What do you guys think? Should we list it as an ability of Leviathans?

FTWinchester (talk) 20:21, November 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmmm.... Interesting theory, FTWinchester. You're right, the two henchmen Angels didn't seem to notice the Leviathan occupying the Demolition man. Although, it need to be taken into account that particularly, those two Angel were quite weak, like in comparison to a Celestial like Virgil or even Balthazar. And because it was made very clear that Cas could 'see' them because he hosted them all, it stands to reason that normally, Angels can't see a Leviathan is inside someone. So yeah, I'd ok you adding that to their abilities set. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:42 PM, November 1st 2012


 * Is it possible that those two angels just couldn't recognize Edgar as a Leviathan because he was blocking their abilities? Perhaps that applies to supernatural perception as well. Ensephylon (talk) 08:17, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Leviathans and (arch)angels
I noticed almost every article relating to these two species refer to a theoretical battle. It doesn't seem to be that important to warrant mentioning, much less repeating it. I don't see such descriptions among other beings (i.e., vampires and werewolves). Demons and angels, I get (as their alignment are polar opposites and there have been many recorded/known battles between them), but leviathans and (arch)angels? FTWinchester (talk) 01:06, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

I just began to notice that myself, FTWinchester, so I am in full argeement with you to the unimportance. This whole theoretical battle between Leviathans and archangels is far too subjective and should be irrelevant to the wiki until such an event actually occurs in Supernatural. 108.225.237.246 20:50, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Added subject about Purgatory Leviathans, negating Cas' teleporting.
When in Purgatory, Cas was able to detect Leviathans, instead of teleporting himself, Dean and Benny to some place else, Cas said that he couldn't they were too close. Is 'negating teleportation' something that Levis can only do in Purgatory?? EDN1980 (talk) 04:24, December 7, 2012 (UTC)

This issue is really getting more and more confusing. Not to mention that, conversely, a leviathan avoided Castiel's smiting touch while in Purgatory. FTWinchester (talk) 04:43, December 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I just think that they can block any kind of teleportation. The reason why Edgar and Dick didn't prevent the garrison/Castiel from teleporting to them is because they wanted them there (Edgar, because the garrison had Kevin, and had they not been able to teleport in, they would have known something was off; it's better to just let them come right in and then jam their powers, and Dick because he thought that Crowley had given Dean the wrong blood and thus, Dean and Cas wouldn't be a threat and he could squash them easily). Ensephylon (talk) 19:13, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Vs Deities?
I wonder if Leviathans are powerful enough to kill the pagan deities Gabriel456 (talk) 13:27, May 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, they are; see, they can eat/kill anything except God, Death and probably Archangels. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:33 PM, May 9th 2013

I personally think, it's more likely that they can with ease eat a pagan god. However, a few things are odd, with them that makes me, keep my mind open otherwise, slightly. First, off while the Levianthans are normally immune to supernatural powers from even beings as strong as standard angel soldiers, a witch (arguably one of the strongest ones) could render one weak for days, with one spell. So, some magic works on them and as deities have magic. And are normally more powerful than most demons, even with low to zero tributes. But, it has never shown a battle betweem a god and levianthan. So, it's open to belief that, one may or may not survive a battle with a Leviathan.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 19:12, May 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Canonically, you're right. Visually, we haven't seen an on-screen battle between a deity and a Leviathan. But we can construct a reliable basis hinging on what we've already seen them do. They can easily kill Angels, and can slaughter any type of demon. By that, I think it's reasonable to assume that a Leviathan can kill a deity. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:20 PM, May 10th 2013


 * Yes, it's completely reasonable, in fact due to common place of power between as angels > gods > demons they be ease to kill. I just leave a bit of room open, that it can be the other way around. After all look at the suprise that Levianthans can kill at least some angels. The common factors of whom is normally older or stronger etc will be the winner, is always true in supernatural. But, it does happen more often like that whomever is older or of a stronger race can kill the lesser ones.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 19:31, May 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * There's really no guessable room to even say there's a potentiality that deities can kill Leviathan. We, actually, can't say deities are older than Angels. In fact, I think it'd be Angels who are older than deities. The other deities could only come into existence after humans, through the theological presumption called "Thoughtforms." And Angels are older than humans, therefore Angels are older than deities. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:40 PM, May 10th 2013


 * That is a manner of oppinon in the show's history andmythology. No one can say forsure when the first pagan gods came to be. But, now I have to be back at work, was on lunch break.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 19:47, May 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * The only deity that just is was God. Also, all the other deities came into existence after people "painted" them into existence through "Thoughtforms." As Metatron says, as a faucet of free will and imagination. Angels are, therefore, older than deities. -- ImperiexSeed, 3:52 PM, May 10th 2013


 * Personally, I think it depends on the deity. Atropos would appear to be a powerful candidate. After all, angels needed a special blade and a cheap surprise attack to take her down. And Atropos has 'bigger' sisters as well. I don't suppose the Leviathan could move out of reality and dimension when frozen by Fate herself. Of course, I couold be wrong. I'm open to speculation. FTWinchester (talk) 14:27, May 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I've never really understood why God would lock the Leviathan in Purgatory in the first place unless none of the other beings could kill them. I mean Castiel states that God locked them up because they could kill angels and would eat the whole aquarium. But if the Archangels are stronger than Leviathan, why didn't God just order them to exterminate the leviathan. Or at the same time why not just order the pagan gods to kill them if they're stronger. The only conclusion I can think of is that Leviathan are immune to supernatural powers and couldn't be killed by the angels or Archangels so God locked them up as they were a danger to his favourite children. Why witch magic can stun them I dont know but I think seeing as Don told them to throw it down a bottomless pit that implies he cannot kill them otherwise he'd probably have done it there. Maybe his spell was meant to kill it but only knocked it out? I don't know. But I think God must have locked them up cause no one else could as Death would have refused as he found them "entertaining" and i dont know if God can hurt his own beings as he had Michael cast Lucifer into the pit rather than do it himself.


 * There are a whole lot of reasons as to why God didn't just have them destroyed--they are, after all, his first creations. Lucifer himself was only cast into the pit, not destroyed. So while the capability of a supernatural being to destroy a Leviathan may dictate a course of action, it does not guarantee it. Perhaps God still cared for all of his creations. As for witchcraft, it is a very fluid power for a being to have. If we recall, spells can affect even the most powerful entity seen so far--Death himself. I'm not saying Don cold have killed Chet, just that the Leviathan may not entirely be immune to any sort of magic. Even Castiel in Purgatory attempted to smite a Leviathan (against all logic that Leviathan are immune). So there may well be instances Leviathan are harmed by magical means, but could ultimately only be destroyed by the Bone Washed in Three Bloods of the Fallen. FTWinchester (talk) 17:43, May 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Couldn't have said it better myself (and that was exactly what I was going to say after reading his article except the biot about Castiel, nice point I forgot that) and your right, in the show God might be a bad father, but the fact that he didn't simply kill them, implies he still cares, so he gave them there own world to live in where they couldn't harm his other children, and probably all the dead monsters souls to chomp. The word of God was only incase the leviathans managed to escape. Its the same thing with Lucifer, Michaels orders were only to kill him if he escaped. Plus the other deties (except apparantly atropos and I still question that) don't have anything to do with him, there simply self proclaimed gods or maybe even thoughtforms. General MGD 109 (talk) 19:07, May 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree but Lucifer was God's favourite angel so keeping him alive makes sense. But leviathan are just beta tests and it's never even implied God cared about them. But yes that would make sense. Though if Castiel couldn't kill Eve, I doubt he could have killed the Leviathan and it was more of a last resource or force of habit thing.


 * I agree he would have been unable to kill the Leviathan, he was probably hoping it might shake it off him for a second, letting him escape. And as any father who vists his son in jail or on the way to the electric chair will tell you, you still love them even if they are a faliure and a menace to society.General MGD 109 (talk) 19:39, May 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * That, my friend, is plain idiocy to say that God couldn't kill the Leviathans because he didn't. He simply made a choice not to. To say lack of action indicates a sense of incapability is absurd. But, yes, it was never inferred that God cared about the Leviathans, like he does with Archangels or humans. -- ImperiexSeed, 12:19 PM, May 14th 2013

Leviathans are not stronger than mid tier and high tier angels!!!!


 * We can't say that for sure, anon. FTWinchester (talk) 21:30, May 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * From what I can tell, the Leviathan can eat/destroy any being (Angels/Seraphs/the cupid, demons, monsters, fairies, etc) except for God, Death, and possibly the Archangels. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:42 PM, May 19th 2013


 * For the comment that Leviathan aren't stronger than mid tier and higher tier angels, they clearly are. Not only did they wipe out a garrison which will have angels of anna's stature but they have shown the potential to kill Castiel serveral times and he has been over powered by them on at least two occasions. So they are clearly stronger than mid tier angels but whether or not they can defeat archangels is entirely debatable. The only being they definately cannot kill are Death and God.


 * And the other horsemen as they can't physically die. I agree with you there definatly stronger than even seraph level angels (its just sometimes difficult to tell, due to how badly they were handled) However I still don't get how anyone can belive they can kill Archangels, even the strongest Seraph is still nothing compared to Archangels, as demonstrated by both Michael with Zachariah and Raphael with Castiel. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:52, June 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * True, General. There were several inconsistencies on the power of the Leviathan, but they definitely wipe the floor with the low and mid-tier angels. As for the archangel tier, like I said previously, although I deem archangels to be all the more cooler and all that, it just doesn't make any sense that Leviathans would be weaker than archangels after how Death described them and how they had to be separated because they could "chomp off the enitre petri dish", and how they literally are more ancient than all angels, including the archangels themselves. Additionally, because the only true weapon that could kill them is the bone, if an archangel is to face a leviathan without the weapon, he could never truly vanquish the beast (emphasis on truly, because I know a Leviathan could be held at bay without the bone, albeit with great difficulty). Leviathans have not displayed much magical abilities, but they could kill a highly magical being like an angel, and could potentially wipe out all demons (also capable of numerous magic, telekinetic abilities, pyrokinesis, etc.). It is really lack of proof that keeps me on this mindset, since, for all we know, the Leviathans could be weaker, or perhaps they could be of equal power, but until we could actually have a canon match-up, the best indicators we have within canon are Death's statements, Edgar's concealment from the angels and his way over easy kills, Castiel being overpowered casually on numerous occasions, and at one time even claiming he could not teleport because Leviathans were "too close". FTWinchester (talk) 01:56, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

THE POWER LEVEL AS I THINK
NOT include god, death or the horsemen.

1- Archangels

2- Leviathans

3- Eve

4- Seraphs

5- Higher demons

6- Angels

7- Deities ( not all of them)

8- Dragons

9- Demons

ASAS

I would say basically the same, except i personally think leviathan can probably kill archangels and I do think some deities might be stronger than some angels and one or two deities might me equal in strength to a seraph.

I would agree with your statements, but I doubt Leviathans can kill archangels, and if they can it wouldn't matter, they would never get a chance. I agree with your statement, some deities may be as strong as Angels, but not many, a few head gods could be similiar to Seraphs. General MGD 109 (talk) 17:27, May 20, 2013 (UTC)

Primary template image
The primary photo of Leviathan showing the amorphous goo in the water supply looks stupid. Can we just change it to their true forms in purgatory? That looks infinitely cooler, very reminiscent of advanced terminators. Just saying. FTWinchester (talk) 02:50, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree, from what we know that is there true form, that should be the template image. General MGD 109 (talk) 22:03, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

The Ziz
hay just throwing in my 2 cents hear but i think maby they could have expanded on the leviathens, there like gluttonous, flesh eating monsters that cant be killed but in myth (the bible to be specific) there was 3 first beasts the leviathen (sea), The Behemoth (earth), and The Ziz (sky) now the Ziz is like a giant griffin like bird monster that blocks the sun and rules over all birds as the king of the sky. now the only way they killed a leviathen was the rightches bone diped in the blood of three fallen right but in the bible the leviathen is caught by the ziz and served at heavens banquet, this means the Ziz is as far the only creature is myth that can catch and kill a leviathen i think haveing a creature that even the leviathen fear would be cool. the one beast in God's creation that can strike fear into the leviathen's heart.

Beast of burden 23:12, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Involving the Ziz and Behemoth has been discussed and theorized prior, and both are interesting, but Carver seems to shy away from "older and bigger" bads that the previous eras set. FTWinchester (talk) 01:21, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

hmmmm i see your point but would still be pretty cool only for the sacke of seeing a leviathen piss his pants.

13:58, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

The three beasts (Leviathan, Behemoth, and the Ziz), remind me of the three bloods of the fallen required to kill a leviathan. the ziz reminds me of angels since they were creatures that ruled the sky. The Behemoth is the beast that ruled the land and that reminds me of humanity. leviathans are sort of related to eve and they rule the depths of the sea, but call Purgetory home in the show. Fallen beasts or monsters are connected to purgetory or the depths.

Restraining?
In what way was Castiel pulling Dick's head back restraining? And it's hardly a display of super strength. If Dick had attempted to break free and couldn't then that would be fair enough but he doesn't because it happens to quick. Cas doesn't really hold him in place (like John does with Azazel), he just gives Dean a better target. It just doesn't seem that impressive seeing as Dick didn't try to resist and pulling someones head back when their off guard isn't really the same as holding someone in place while they try to fight back.

Indeed thats a good point, he just grabbed Dick from behind, Dick was to suprised to pull back, and Dean stabbed him before he could do anything about it. I opt we remove it. General MGD 109 (talk) 18:32, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

Angelic Suppression.
It's stated on this page that it's unknown if Leviathan possess angelic immunity or angelic supression but isn't it quite clear they possess angelic supression? Clearly they can negate angelic powers such as when one tries to telekinetically attack Edgar and can't. But also when in Purgatory, Castiel can't teleport away when being hunted by Leviathan that get "too close" and yet he was able to teleport next to Dick Roman when he wasn't expecting Castiel or Dean to do so, which implies it's an ability in which they must activate rather than one that is present constantly. So it therefore stands to reason that they possess the ability to "unplug" angels of they're powers in a similar manner to Eve.

The confrontation with Dick proves that's definitely the case, so you can rightly adjust the page likewise. -- ImperiexSeed, 11:57 PM, February 9th 2014

Dick Roman
Hey alright I'm just a little bit confused on this point and if someone could like clear this up for me that would be wonderful.

Alright so Dick was the leader of the Leviathans, and at this point is the strongest one known, but is it ever stated that he is 100% the first/strongest Leviathan?


 * I don't think he was described those technically, but after being described as the 'head' or the 'leader', I kind of just assumed it. Like how Michael was to angels, Eve to monsters, Lilith/Azazel/whoever-you-argue-is-stronger to demons. FTWinchester (talk) 12:10, February 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I can answer one of your questions with absolutely certainty. Dick was definitely the strongest Leviathan to exist, being that even Edgar adhered to his leadership. But as to the other one. You mean in anywhere in the show was Dick called the oldest? I don't recall, but being that he serves as the head, I'd say there's no alternate way to look at him other than as the oldest Leviathan. However, I've thought up a theory where God could've created them all in an instant, based on the fact that he would've stopped making them after like the second or third Leviathan, and seeing as there's a whole shoal of Leviathan, the only sensible perspective is that he created all of them at once. -- ImperiexSeed, 4:13 PM, February 20th 2014


 * Dick mentions clawing his way to the top, which implies that he is the strongest. Whether or not he is the oldest is unknow
 * Thanks! Now that I think about that God may have created them all at once. I guess I just don't want Leviathans to be out of the show... well maybe not out of the show but just so weak. They just seem kinda suckish honestly... that's why I'm hoping they bring in a stronger Leviathan. Bigmar6775 (talk) 23:10, February 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Suckish?" What do you mean, I mean they're all disorganized and maybe still indestructible depending on how we look at Crowley's statement to Sam and the line from one of the Words of God. I think too many top-of-the-line Leviathan would be too much, frankly. -- ImperiexSeed, 10:46 PM, February 24th 2014


 * It's actually a bit strange. You'd think that without Dick there'd be far more leviathan attacks rather than none as they don't have anything to keep them in line. While they're not the best supernatural villains, I'd still like to see them brought back or at least re-imprisoned in Purgatory. As much as Crowley's right that they are just another monster, he kind of sugar coated it seeing as they're very strong, smart and killing them isn't exactly practical. I mean are there even that many righteous bones in the world? Not to mention they'd need to bleed the alpha vampire dry and Hell doesn't have a confirmed ruler due to Abaddon aand Crowley's campaign. At least there'd be plenty of fallen angel blood.


 * They might be able to use Dean's blood, but at the very beginning of "Lazarus Rising," he most likely doesn't fit that designation anymore. Even though, past then, he's still found worthy of many things, such as him being a 'true servant of Heaven,' etc. There's not really a solid reason to believe that Dick's death makes any of Leviathan destructible. The fallen angel blood and that of the only remaining alpha, which is the alpha Vampire, are at least doable. -- ImperiexSeed, 5:19 PM, February 25th 2014


 * Dean's blood wouldn't be of any use. If he does qualify as a righteous mortal, you'd need his bones which he couldn't really donate. Alpha blood would be tricky given how many leviathan there are. Angel blood there's more than enough.


 * It's already a lost opportunity. They had several episodes to show their power (even more than demons or angels in each of their respective debut seasons), but the show didn't. Theoretically they were scary and powerful, but after all the poor handling, they don't stand out so much. I've only ever felt threatened by them twice, once during the hospital attack, and finally, when they were flying in Purgatory, and that leviathan lady (see the gif image I uploaded on the template) looked really badass. Additionally, the show already shoved Purgatory aside and blocked all logical reintroduction of the leviathan so at this point, I'd rather they stay out of the picture. FTWinchester (talk) 21:29, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sine Horsemen are considered natural aspects of the world. Could Sam or Dean have put on Famine's ring and made them eat themselves or War's and cause them to fight and slaughter each other like lamb?173.224.100.42 03:08, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

I cannot explain why, since the season five finale, the Winchesters or Bobby haven't used the three other Horsemen rings to gain their powers, but, yes, if they wore their rings, they would be gods of the attribute of war, famine and pestilence. -- ImperiexSeed, 1:43 AM, August 29th 2014

How old?
Death said that the age of the Milky Way Galaxy (approximately 13.2 billion years) is a very short amount of time to him. He also said that LONG before God created angel or man, he made the first beasts, the leviathan. If 13.2 billion years is a short amount of time for him, how much is a long amount of time? With that, how long ago were the Leviathan created?

I wouldn't say there's any standard in which Death would consider any span or duration of time remotely significant. While it's known that Leviathan are younger than Heaven, and while it may be determinable, it's unknown when Leviathan were created. -- ImperiexSeed, 6:13 PM, November 15th 2014

Time of Creation
so with the finale it seams that It went as such. God created Archangels, Heaen, Earth, Leviathans, Purgatory, angels, man, and Hell. So the Leviathans can only over power regular angels but would be powerless against the Archangels or close to it.173.224.106.183 05:27, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

We don't know if Leviathans are able to negate angelic power of the Archangel level. BUT, we do know that the Leviathans predate all angels even Michael.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 05:46, May 21, 2015 (UTC)

Well according to Death they're older than Leviathan since the Darkness came before God and he created them to help him fight The Darkness.173.224.106.183 03:57, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

Death didn't say that archangels are older than leviathan; he made no mention of leviathan at all, as the archangels were the ones relevant to what he was saying and the leviathan weren't. He stated in a previous episode that leviathan were created by God "long before God created angel or man." The phrasing in the latter instance can very easily be interpreted as "angel" meaning "angels as a whole, archangels included." It's entirely possible that archangels were created first and helped God defeat the Darkness, and then God created leviathan and had to lock them away, and long after that God created angels -- but it's not stated. It's also entirely possible that God created the leviathan first and then had to lock them away, then made the archangels who were were involved with the Darkness threat and therefore were relevant to what Death was warning Dean about. Hopefully an episode in Season 11 gives us a more informative timeline of events -- the creation order of archangels and leviathan included -- but until then, we can't definitively tell which came first.--NaiflidG (talk) 06:27, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

We're gonna make this long story short, I WAS LEVIATHAN and was possessing Christopher ofcourse he thought he was simply ill and mentally ill and was even disgnosed as the rarest type of paranoid schizo thats aware of his multiple personalities, but thats not what was happening to him and after looking in an old masons bible at a picture of a snake on a stick, his eyes began burning with such pain he became paralyzed and couldnt even cry out for help, thats when he saw the floating flaming head in the darkness of his eyes, and he couldnt pray opr even think the name of GOD and then the words St.Michael the Archangel manifested in his mind 3 times and then a huge gust of ice cold wind blew over his body and then Christopher felt a light tap on the middle of his forehead, thats when St.Michael himself came down and gave us divine intervention by anointing christopher and cast out all EVIL within him except I, and then The Archer spoke tome (of course Christopher didnt hear this, this was happening on a spiritual level) saying, "I have taken the hellfire from your eyes and I have taken your spines and gave you horns and fangs and declare you are BACK IN GODS Graces AND when Christophers body dies You will be unleashed upon this world once more and ALL WILL BOW before YOU even GOD HIMSELF! FOR NOW YOU ARE NO LONGER LEVIATHAN, YOU ARE NOW THE KING SNAKE" so quit talking about things you have no idea about, and if youre reading this, regardless of what you may think of this, when you die and all truth comes to you at once before God judges you, you will come back to this moment and say "HOLY SHIT THAT PSYCHO on the internet was speaking the TRUTH!" You refered to me as the serpent King in your Bible...Seek out your own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING! and Hebrews 13:2! No Christopher is NOT special, matter of fact hes been an aethiest his whole life until June of 2006 when he along with a co-worker saw an apparition, not a cloud of smoke, standing 12 feet from them was aman in a fedora hat and transparent and he walked up within 6 feet of them both and vanished, in that moment he knew for FACT that the Spiritual realm existed and GOD existed and prayed forthe first time in his life while crying for GOD to forgive him for having denied him his whole life and asked God to do his will though him and in return only asked for forgivness and a place in HIS Kingdom, so no HE IS NOT SPECIAL, he is only a vessal unto ME, but is literally experiencing divine intervention on a weekly basis and/or daily basis from experiancing non-stop external demonic attack for all of HELL knows what the archer did to me. If he were crazy then he would respond to psychatropic meds but does not cause he may be crazy, but hes not what moccasin bend diagnosed him with, one of his psychs actually told him herself that he was under spiritual attack, but didnt listen and thought she was the "nut" so in the end you'll find out that this post was the only real message from or through ANYONE thats actually TRUTH on these things. GODBLESS

Regarding power levels
I am writing this section in response to User_blog:EmpyreanSmoke/Weaknesses where we were having a debate on relative power levels and whether or not Leviathans could defeat Archangels. I am moving the discussion here, primarily because the user blog format makes it difficult to follow discussions and because the user blog space is not the right space for having a discussion on article content. The talk page of an article is the intuitive place to go for a newbie who wants to figure out whether there have been past established consensuses on that article, hence Talk:Leviathans.

Based on the messages left on my talk page, it seems we have a few issues that need to be cleared up:


 * 1) Was a proper consensus established here? If so, who was the discussion closed by and was there actually a group agreement? Consensus is not about the majority vote, so running a poll is just silly (not to mention highly abusable).
 * 2) If the above is true, why is there still edit-warring?
 * 3) Has the SPN Writer been verified? Word-of-mouth is inadequate, there has to be established and open evidence that anyone can countercheck for themselves if we are to start taking material from supposed SPN writers.

Issue 1: Was there consensus?
I see two attempts to end the discussion.
 * The first was by Twilight Despair 5: here
 * The second was by EmpyreanSmoke: here

Both attempts at closure are problematic. Twilight's declaration that he is ending the discussion there and then seems premature, considering that there were disagreements that don't strike me as having been satisfactorily resolved. I point this out as observation as a (mostly) neutral party who isn't too heavily invested in the discussion. Furthermore, the tone of this closure is more reminiscent of someone 'laying down the law' as opposed to someone who has struck a successful negotiation and agreement between two opposing sides.

EmpyreanSmoke's closure is extremely problematic. There is a Wiki policy that states: All editors are equal. Now this might strike you as blatantly false given that some users have access to more tools and such, and yes this policy is very prone to misinterpretation. But it is a policy a lot of Wikis have adopted because of situations such are these. The key idea behind this is that it does not matter if you are using an IP, regular, sysop, bureaucrat account when it comes to a discussion. When we approach an issue, it should not matter that I've been here 3 years and you 1 week. What matters in the discussion is that you have a sound point. Not all arguments are equal (some are obviously more ridiculous than others), and some users have been established as trusted users by the community. But if you have a valid point, none of my past experience on the Wiki can override that. It is my responsibility to address that point or show you why this point is invalid or unsound. This is why seeing a comment like: "two anonymous users and a newly registered user" and "Four registered, established users" raises alarm bells in my head. This is an awful way of looking at the discussion. By all means, raise the fact that someone is established during an RfA. But it is completely irrelevant in a content dispute, and a form of discrimination.

It doesn't seem like the discussion has been properly resolved (especially given the renewed edit-warring) and I hope you agree that these aren't valid closures.

Issue 2: Can we establish consensus now?
I am now going to summarise the two sides of the issue as fairly as I can. Please feel free to raise an issue if you think your argument has been represented unfairly.

Note that while I have summarised the salient points, I have left out bits of the discussion that went off on tangents and didn't enable us to reach any conclusions (e.g. the bit about transitive properties and felines predating dogs (?) ) Note that I am not recreating the discussion response by response, in many of the replies, it was simply a case of users restating the point they had made before. This summary is a simplification in order to remove this unnecessary fluff.

Let's be clear on the evidence we are working with (this seems to have caused some confusion during the discussion):

Archangels vs Leviathans

 * Argument 1 - Leviathans are stronger than most everything they predate. This is based on Death's quote above.
 * "Castiel and Death claimed that the Leviathans could "chomp the ENTIRE aquarium". They also both said that the Leviathans predate, and can kill angels. Archangels are part of this "aquarium", and are themselves a type of angel. It has been confirmed by Death, Castiel, and others that Leviathan can kill angels. Archangels are angels, so unless it is stated otherwise on the show, Leviahans can kill archangels (being angels, which Leviathan can kill). - EmpyreanSmoke


 * Argument 2 - Leviathan can kill angels, archangels are angels, therefore Leviathan can kill archangels. This is based on Castiel's quote above.


 * Rebuttal - Leviathans can kill angels yes, but not necessarily archangels. When it is stated that angels can be killed by leviathans, Castiel was really referring to angels (by and large) but not (necessarily) including archangels. When Death said that Leviathans can kill angels, he was referring generically to angels (i.e. excluding the exceptionally powerful), and furthermore archangels were already out of the picture by that point in the plot.


 * The mass of normal angels are not as powerful as archangels and 99 percent of the demons are not as powerful as Lilith, Alastair and Azazel, so just because a Leviathan may be able to kill or eat a low powered one it doesnt mean they can do the same to the more powerful ones.
 * When Death said Leviathans can kill angels, he was talking about the thousands or millions of lower level angels, and didn't think it would be necessary to distinguish the 4 archangels out of 1,000 or 1,000,000 angels. Besides that, he would have no point to, as two of the archangels were dead, and the other two are locked away in Lucifer's Cage. -- 104.238.216.26
 * Castiel later said in the finale that Leviathans can kill angels, but that was in direct reference to the fact that a garrison of angels was all dead. This wasn't referring to archangels, because there couldn't have been any archangels there at the time, because Raphael was dead, Gabriel was still thought to be dead, and Michael and Lucifer were still locked in Lucifer's Cage. So Castiel was only referring to lower angels, not archangels, as no archangels could have been in the garrison as far as we know.--SPNfan7908


 * Clarification - In Death's quote, when he says 'angel, he does refer to both regular angels and archangels.

Actually, your quotation only goes to show how "angels" are sometimes used as a catch-all phrase to include all types of angels, including archangels. It is canon (unless retconned in Season 11) that the Leviathans were the first creations of God. So "angels" in this context will include even the four most powerful angels--archangels, but angels nonetheless. And since this context extends to the next few lines that Leviathans could chomp off the petri dish, it actually serves as one of the bases why people think Leviathan can consume archangels. -FTWinchester


 * Possible compromise - List the Leviathans as a possible Weakness

I am open to listing it Leviathans as a Possible Weakness. As there no evidence every directly stated that they cannot kill or not kill the Archangels. Only that they can kill Angels, and Archangel no matter how strong is still an Angel first and leans more toward they can be killed by Leviathans. - Twilight Despair 5


 * Mitigating factors - 1. Castiel seems to be able to use his powers against Leviathans. 2. The power scale in Supernatural is far from being linear. 3. Leviathans turned out to be rather weak, all in all. But this is debatable. 4. Archangels aided God in beating back The Darkness.
 * For this topic, there are canon statements to support it, but also a lot of confusion due to contradictory scenes (why is Castiel sometimes able to use his powers against Leviathans?). - FTWinchester


 * the semantics are very confusing (i.e., Eve addressed Castiel as an "angel" despite being considered a Seraph) and the execution of the show leaves it confusing (i.e., Castiel can sometimes use his power against a Leviathan and sometimes he can't)...the power scale in Supernatural is far from being linear. --FTWinchester|


 * Leviathans were absolutely pathetic. They were basically immortal ghouls who wanted to stuff themselves with humans and whatever else they could get their jaws on. They had no fancy powers like the angels, they had to use COMPUTERS to locate people, they were getting owned with the stuff people could find in their bathrooms, a noob witch was capable of paralyzing one of them for days with no effort whatsoever, they couldn't even see ghosts which led to them being beaten by one, they were getting almost too easily dismembered by humans, they couldn't fly or teleport like angels and demons so they had to use cars, they liked eating each other and their leader got killed by a bone. --Bats In The Belfry
 * Just because Leviathans powers are more physical and not such a "light show" like in the archangels case, does not mean they are "pathetic". Leviathans are not just more physically powerful, they are more intelligent as well. Was Lucifer able to locate Sam and Dean ? - Why not just use a localization spell or ask a reaper to do it, seems he never had such an obvious idea. Leviathans managed to bypass this with complex algorithms, Archangels just rely on their power given by God, none of them could ever match up with with a Leviathan in terms of intelligence. Don Stark was a very powerful witch and certainly not a noob, - basically one of the few ways an archangel could defeat a Leviathan is to use the regular magic as well to immobilize a Leviathan. --93.132.9.88


 * "it was recently revealed that God needed the archangels to fight The Darkness, some editors feel that it just can't be the case, that Leviathans can defeat beings who helped God significantly." - Lambda1

Further discussion
Issue1:

"Was a proper consensus established  here ? If so, who was the discussion closed by and was there actually a group agreement? Consensus is not about the majority vote, so running a poll is just silly (not to mention highly abusable)."


 * Okay, I admit that it is probably not the best way, even if a majority agreed, it could still be wrong. But than, assuming we have 10 people arguing  about some topic, 8 of them come to the same conclusion and 2 don't agree ? How to decide in this wiki, if something can be considered as consensus ? Majority is a bad way, but it seems, there was no other way out. For myself, I considered that the consensus was made.

"If the above is true, why is there still edit-warring?"


 * It seems, there is no consensus, if a consensus can't be established by majority. The users that have not agreed continued to edit the sites, while we undo these changes.

"Has the SPN Writer been verified? Word-of-mouth is inadequate, there has to be established and open evidence that anyone can countercheck for themselves if we are to start taking material from supposed SPN writers."


 * The SPN Writer is not verified yet, but EmpyreanSmoke has released enough information, to verify it as soon as the list of the new writers will be released.


 * I think, if we can't establish a consensus, we should exclude any statements on that matter (Neither Leviathans can kill archangels not Archangels can kill Leviathans) to satisfy both sides. Lambda1 (talk) 06:00, October 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not quite right to say that we cannot establish a consensus. Consensus is about a general agreement amongst users and is more nuanced than how you've explained it. It's about making an honest attempt to address the key issues raised by both sides in a discussion and reaching a general (though not necessarily total) agreement on a state of affairs. In this case, it appears the issues on one side were not sufficiently addressed. We can, of course, do better. Calebchiam Talk 06:14, October 7, 2015 (UTC)