Talk:Jack Kline (Nephilim)

Condition
Does anyone know what was wrong with the baby? Dagon said the baby's fine but I'm not sure. Kajune (talk) 15:58, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. I think maybe the baby is fine but the doctor saw something special that marks it as not entirely human.Dtol (talk) 16:00, April 7, 2017 (UTC)

I think that doctor was going to warn Kelly about the impact of baby towards to mothers body, but Kelly intervened. Not sure tho, I think he is fine. SeraphLucifer (talk) 19:47, April 7, 2017 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I looked at the scene again and it was as if the fetus turned to look at the doctor. Kajune (talk) 01:48, April 8, 2017 (UTC)

Possession/Empowering
I'm not sure he was empowering Cas and not partially possessing him. Cas said it was both of them that killed Dagon, indicating to me that he did more than just give Cas the power to kill her.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:25, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

I think the baby empowered Castiel. This would make more sense given that archangels have this ability. I doubt it was possession or partial possession since Castiel was pretty much still himself afterwards. He healed Dean. You could say mind control though, but Castiel has been known to turn on the Winchesters whenever he is certain he's on the right path. Kajune (talk) 15:31, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was a full possession, it looked to me like he may have taken partial control of Cas while he held hands with Kelly. When Cas let go, the baby's control of him was gone. Actually, the baby's influence was gone from him after Cas lit Dagon ablaze: pay close attention and his eyes return to normal either as he shoves her away or right after.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:34, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

Image
Hey, what happened to the image on this page? Kajune (talk) 02:57, May 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * To quote Wilbur Robinson "THAT is an excellent question!!!"--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 03:08, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Dtol removed it:  I'll deal with him, he also commited another offense he was warned about. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:33, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

I restored the picture and tidied up the page some. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:39, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Good job, Zane. :) Kajune (talk) 03:46, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

No problem. Zane T 69 (talk) 03:59, May 2, 2017 (UTC)

Parentage
Yes Lucifer is the father in some sense. But isn't Jefferson Rooney as well? As while an angel or demon possessing a human alters the DNA, as possessed humans have angelic grace or demon blood they don't replace it altogether. So isn't Jefferson like his biological parent and Lucifer his spiritual/biological parents. As Lucifer just passed his angelic grace with Jefferson and Kelly having sex. It's not like Jessie Turner when his mother gave birth to him from being possessed by a demon.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 18:51, May 22, 2017 (UTC)
 * That's really just speculation so we can't post it on the page.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:50, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

How is it speculation? Jefferson gave the DNA to Kelly. It simply was altered by Lucifer's grace. A Nephilim is a human with a soul mixed with grace. The Cambion was birthed from his mother being possessed by a demon in someway. Lucifer made jack through Jefferson.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 20:04, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

But its not enough to list him as a parent. Like how a vessel can't really be called an angel's body since they are merely possessing it or using it as a vessel rather than it being theirs.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 20:16, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

You made my point, the vessel isn't the angel's body just whom their possessing he has his own DNA. It's not like Lucifer created a physical body and had sex with Kelly. That would be his son, 100%. Jefferson gave the DNA as the vessel Lucifer's grace just went with it. I'll wait for consensus on this, as it's not a black and white issue it's a gray one. As if something like if Jefferson was sterile than, Lucifer would have created the DNA while possessing him. My argument is we know as canon, an entity angelic, Demonic, spiritual, etc adds or alters DNA of its host.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 20:37, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

Well whatever the case its not enough to add it to the page as Jefferson having any sort of relation to the kid beyond being Lucifer's vessel at the time of conception is all speculation. We need something more concrete to add Rooney as a relation to Jack. A comment made in the show or something like that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 21:41, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

Well that isn't yours or mine decision to make, so I'll wait for consensus. This just seems like logic Jefferson didn't stop being Jefferson while possessed by Lucifer. To say Jefferson has no kind of biological connection seem speculative as it's also never stated a child bore from a possessed person isn't theirs. Lucifer isn't physical but spiritual and needs a vessel to effectively influence the physical world. He took over Jefferson, but he didn't replace all of his DNA while possessed.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 00:48, May 23, 2017 (UTC) Thank you Kajune.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 06:56, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * When an angel possesses a vessel, the DNA becomes the angel's. The same applies with demons. That's where demon blood comes from. The vessel is reduced to a mere conscience. The angel has, in every way, materialized on Earth by taking a vessel. Jefferson is not the father, Lucifer is. The soul part that Jack receives is from his mother, the grace from his father, and blood from both. A mix, a combination. And you can't use Amara as an argument. Her relationship page lists her vessel's parents. Not hers. Her vessel's parents aren't Amara's. Jack is Lucifer and Kelly's. No one else's. And Amara has no parent. Kajune (talk) 06:02, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Can you show exact stated evidence, that proves that a possessed person's DNA is no longer there's?&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 11:08, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * Demon blood? Angel blood? What was Sam drinking if the blood coming from a possessed vessel belonged to the vessel? If the DNA of a demon's vessel didn't change once possessed, then Sam was gaining super powers from human blood, because it did not contain the DNA of the possesser, according to your logic. Kajune (talk) 11:27, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Changing as adding on, not completely genetic rewrite. Besides Jesse Turner the human woman is listed as his mother. And she was virgin and was possessed by a demon to make the Cambion. How is Jesse her son and Jefferson not a biological parent of Jack as well? For as by your argument Jesse shouldn't be her son, which it was stated he was.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 12:06, May 23, 2017 (UTC)
 * As much as I don't mind conceding to your argument if you have a good point, we have very little to explain Jesse Turner's backstory. He, a half-demon, empowered by Lucifer being outside of The Cage. Jesse's conception also made little sense. How did his virgin mother conceive? Through possession? That leads me to believe Jesse is not a counterpart to Jack or Jane, but a little more unique, a little more ill-explained. And while Julia considers herself the biogical mother of Jesse, no one has stated that Jefferson is Jack's, not even Kelly. So yeah, we're both pretty much speculating, based on what? Half-explained facts. I seriously suggest you do not state Jefferson is the father. Kajune (talk) 13:11, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

At the very least, Jefferson is a biological source as the vessel. Isn't also never stated an angel possess completely rewrites DNA in the host. I'll not add it until consensus is made or facts from series become clear which is likely not to happen.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 13:26, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Beyond the Winchesters being wanted for trying to assassinate Jefferson in First Blood, I don't think the dude has even been mentioned since his possession. This is a pointless debate as we have nothing supporting that Jefferson is in any way related to Jack. Let's just drop this, okay??? Consensus is that he's not related, you are the only one that thinks so in this discussion Twilight.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 15:55, May 24, 2017 (UTC)

Page Name
It is a known fact,Jack is an important character and he should have /Jack page name instead of Jack_(Nephilim) because whenever Jack is spoken,we all know he is the nephilim one,not the deceased human guy from S09E07.Wouldn't it be better to swap pages and rename current Jack into Jack(human) or something? The-Real-Ironwill (talk) 21:31, September 16, 2017 (UTC)

anyone home? care to answer? The-Real-Ironwill (talk) 01:49, February 7, 2018 (UTC)

Jack
One source I found for the name "Jack" is "Godly": http://www.world-english.org/boys_names-j-l.htm - Blaid 21:21, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Add it then. JS0662 (talk) 21:22, October 28, 2017 (UTC)

Is he going to get some actual legal ID?
Personally I think this is only a matter of time before he gets a badge or some fake IDs, but is he going to get an actual ID or is just going to be off the grid? And do you think his name on that ID will be Jack Morningstar or Jack Kine or Jack Novak or Jack Rooney or maybe even Jack Winchester? Is it going to say his actual birthdate or be aged a bit further since he doesn't look like a kid? These are the theoretical questions that I have about him. Lygarx (talk) 09:35, October 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, we might find out on the next episode unless the writers suddenly forgot that he needs one. But for me, I think his name will either be Jack Kline or Jack Winchester (since Sam did say they were "brothers" in The Rising Son). Touchinos (talk) 10:12, October 30, 2017 (UTC)

Jack's powers
I have begon thinking that Jack's ability to create waves of energy that throw people and or objects is not telekinesis. telekinesis is the ability to move things with your mind. Jack did this with the pencil and it looks different and more controled what I would think of when I think telekinesis and is also more in line with other charecters use of the ability. on the other hand the shock wave thing he does seems different. more like some form of energy progection or explosive power then telekinesis. I did look up powers that match what he is doing and it seems to be seismokinesis in nature and seismic burst as the aculal power. what do the rest of you think. ThomasNealy (talk) 14:24, November 17, 2017 (UTC) I can agree that it is a kinetic power but no other character on the show showed that kind of special effect when they use telekinesis. I'm not convinced it is normal telekinesis. Demons, Witches, gods, angels, Amara, and God all use Telekinesis and not one shows that energy shock wave when they do. Even Jack when he did it with the pencil showed no special effect. It should be defined as something other then general telekinesis. It is unique to Jack so far and no other character showed a similar ability.
 * First, you need to use proper punctuation on here. Second, its clearly some energetic form of telekinesis.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 07:31, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

P.S. Since we are mentioning proper punctuation on talk pages. You need to put an apostrophe on its. It should be it's as in (it is), not (its) the plural of it. Glad to know we can help point out errors for each other to make the better. :)

ThomasNealy (talk) 08:19, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

Also the Telekinesis section seems to being a little long for a brief description of the ability and use. Can one of you mods or Admins decide how to pair it down a little. Looking over the other powers on other pages and I can see we don't usually go into that much detail or list every time the power was used.

ThomasNealy (talk) 08:31, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

It's clear that it's telekinesis. You might consider it a "Telekinetic blast", but that's still just telekinesis. They've just added more special effects. They've been doing that a lot. It's like the new special effects for molecular combustion. People used to just explode into blood but now it's CGI colors and dust. Still the same power, though. JS0662 (talk) 15:53, November 19, 2017 (UTC)

Could Jack’s powers be in the same category as Lower Tier Nigh-Omnipotence since it was stated that Jack could do almost anything. Spnfan079 (talk) 22:49, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

I would agree with that. His bio-father is listed there and the lore says he is stronger than his father. --ThomasNealy (talk) 22:54, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

So can I change that or do I wait for the rest of the community to agree. Spnfan079 (talk) 23:01, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

The lore does say that, and while he's demonstrated pretty impressive stuff, I'm not sure he's grown into his power. I'd just leave it for the time being, until the end of the season at least. Just in case we have to move him multiple times or something. Dtol (talk) 23:04, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

I would give it another day just to be on the safe side. make sure you point to the talk page in your edit comments when you do make the edit though just in case someone has a problem with it. --ThomasNealy (talk) 23:06, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

Never mind lol she posted a few seconds before me. --ThomasNealy (talk) 23:14, February 3, 2018 (UTC)

Jack’s form of Telekinesis would you consider it Advanced or Highly Advanced, or is he not there yet. Spnfan079 (talk) 00:40, February 5, 2018 (UTC) Just leave it for now. Advanced Telekinetics seem to be able to stop bullets or else use telekinesis while not being in the actual area. Jack's telekinesis looks really fancy, but it semms pretty slow. Dtol (talk) 16:02, February 5, 2018 (UTC)

Leave it be. Jack's telekinesis seems to be something else entirely in my opinion though. He seems to slow down his target with his energy waves, almost like time is slowing down around them before blasting them away. He does have a more normal form though seen I think during the incident in the tattoo parlor.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 18:41, February 6, 2018 (UTC)

I think I made that argument before at the start of this topic. I never thought his blast was telekinesis to begin with.--ThomasNealy (talk) 18:54, February 6, 2018 (UTC)

Heavenly Portal as a Weakness
Like the Grace extraction, it is also doubted by the characters. When first introduced as a possible weakness, it was when he wasn't born yet. When Castiel, went to heaven't portal to meet an angel and ask if Jack was being kept in a cell, It is implied that the Portal wont disintegrate his molecules and kill him. Now that he is born, I don't think he is bound by this weakness anymore. There is a conflict and it is either possibly or formerly a weakness.Lygarx (talk) 08:00, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that only applies to a Nephilim that was sired by a normal Angel. I mean, Jack managed to cross The Empty so he is literally on God's level in terms of power now. A simple portal wouldn't have any effect on him. Touchinos (talk) 08:07, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * That is a fair statement, I also think that it may have to do with the fact that he is no longer a fetus. A lot of the things that should have killed Jack should no longer be possible now that he is grown. Lygarx (talk) 08:13, November 26, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it was only a weakness because it would have killed the mother and he was to young to survive out side the womb yet. ThomasNealy (talk) 08:36, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Angel Radio
If that is considered a weakness, it could be considered true for any angel that has experienced an overwhelming amount of voices and suffered pain from it. the Ritz Zhen that felt pain from the amount of voices in pain, Tessa who felt the screaming voices in the veil. Even Castiel got a bit woozy from when the angels were in a panic and chattering about Jack's conception. I guess time will tell if it will stay a weakness due to his initial inexperience with his powers. Lygarx (talk) 08:10, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it was the overwhelming amount but rather the fact that he was just not used to it yet and did not know how to filter it out. I'm not shure it is a weakness so much as a over exposure to a new stimuli ThomasNealy (talk) 08:39, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Power of God
Let's please not get in to another fight about if the God of the show and the God of Real Life are the same and if the show one is as powerful as the real life version. We can not just assume that every time a character says something that challenges the "power" of God that they are wrong and lying. We need to take what the characters say at face value until or unless something shows us else wise. ThomasNealy (talk) 23:16, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I'll show you to how God restored Castiel to life quite a few times and the semantic argument of "He said rebuild" isn't a strong ground to stand on. Plus, considering Jack isn't a powerful as God and yet could reach The Empty, it isn't out of the question to think the more powerful character is capable of the same feat. If we took everything at face value, we should've changed Lucifer to "Nigh-Omnipotent" on a level beyond The Darkness when he said he could beat it.

Taking them at face value after all.

Additionally, if it did work on a "rebuilding" aspect, which is God crafted an entirely new angel with all the same memories and experiences, then Jack calling out for "Castiel" would make every single version wake up, not just one. And several of them would refuse to go back to sleep since they have work to do. So we would have the Castiel Quartet calling Dean, not just a single Castiel.

Kaestal (talk) 23:21, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

Fact one. God never claimed to have resurrected Cas.

Fact two. The angels have said that Cas was all the way dead this time.

Fact three. Lucifer is the father of lies, and is known to brag or crouch what he is saying to win others over to him. And his statement was later clarified by the show, showing that it was brag and the truth. There for rendering his statement invalid. (no such statement has been made for the empty as of yet)

Fact four. Jack never went in to the empty, merely sent a call into it. He did not resurrect Cas himself merely called to Cas. Cas woke him self up after that and got himself tossed out of the Empty.

Fact five. We can not write to the wiki on future speculation based on where we think the story is going or how things will play out. We work with what we have now. Nothing the entity said is open for interpretation at this point. We have none of the background to say he is a known lier and we have no other in show references to this matter either. There for what the entity claimed stands as fact until otherwise disputed.

Fact six. Jack never claimed that he was responsible at all either. We still do not know exactly what happened. For all we know that only reason it work was because they have a bond of some sort.

Fact seven. It is an assumption that Cas was sent to the empty all the other times he died. We can not make that assumption given the new evidence that the angels and the out of show interviews. Which call in to question just how dead Cas was before this time.

ThomasNealy (talk) 23:42, November 26, 2017 (UTC)

I thought this was going to be a discussion on what if Jack were to be powered up by the angel tablet and hands of god. or how would he make new angels and what if a nephilim had sex with an angel or another nephilim or what would a nephilim make? now that would be an interesting conversation. Lygarx (talk) 10:07, November 28, 2017 (UTC)

No it was i n response to Kaestal trying to bring real world religion in to the wiki by stating that God was all powerful. It ties in to the Empty page as well. As well has heading off an edit war they were starting as well with another person. How ever if you want to talk about that subject, it sounds like it would make a good blog post for every one to talk about. Maybe you could start that. ThomasNealy (talk) 11:05, November 28, 2017 (UTC)

Cass and resurrection
First let me say that I think that fact I even have to make this post in the first place is ridiculous. How ever rules are rules (3r Rule). Can we get a consensus on the fact that Jack did not resurrect Cass. He simply woke him up by unknown means. --ThomasNealy (talk) 00:52, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, he just woke him up. JS0662 (talk) 00:54, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the Cosmic Entity resurrected Castiel, not Jack. Dtol (talk) 00:56, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah obviously. Why is this even an issue??? Is someone making it an issue??? If so, then who???--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 02:16, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

User:Sjb6759 is of the opinion that Jack telepathically resurrected Cass and that there for the statement that the angel at the jail made was wrong. He is starting an edit war on two pages over it. I think even calling Jack waking Cass up telepathy is speculation simply because we don't know if that is how he woke him up. too quote Twilight Despair "Even if your 99% percent right, that 1% percent makes it speculative" "It’s policy to only put information that is canon or that can’t be interpreted" There are too many what if's and maybe's surrounding what Jack did to wake him up. the thing we do know is that Jack was not the one to resurrect him. --ThomasNealy (talk) 02:44, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

I didn’t say he resurrected him all I said was he woke him up telepathically --Sjb6759 (talk) 02:48, December 28, 2017 (UTC)

I think it is fair to call what he did resurrection. If Jack woke up Castiel, then it is implicit that he brought him back to life - you don't wake up someone who is "all the way dead", so that condition must have been reversed, namely, by Jack. When Castiel pleads with the Cosmic Entity, he doesn't say "resurrect me" - he says, "Send me back to Earth." In other words, he's not crediting the Entity for resurrecting him. The distinction between resurrection and waking up a dead soul in the way Jack did is based in pure pedantry. If you try hard enough, then every act of resurrection in the series can be deconstructed as something else, as Not Actually Resurrection - you could say, for example, that The Darkness never resurrected Mary, she merely brought her soul back to Earth in her body. T hat an  angel said Jack didn't have the chops to resurrect Castiel means nothing - that angel thought she could kill Jack with an Angel Blade. She clearly didn't have a good grasp of his powers.SonOfEve (talk) 23:28, January 16, 2018 (UTC)

Resurrection is by definition to bring the dead back to life. A true resurrection would be the ones Dean and Mary had. As Castiel and Amara brought them back. Both went through cellular Death truly. Dean was in a coffin for four months, and Mary’s body wasn’t destroyed in the fire. A true resurrection is a revival of the dead, and doesn’t require any other assistances or substances to prevent it from being undo. There is a difference between Resurrection and Reanimation. Hell even Adam Winchester had a resurrection, as he was burned with a Hunter’s Pyre. If it wasn’t a true one, when Zachariah died it should have undone the resurrection.&#91;&#91;User:Twilight Despair 5&#124;&#93;&#93; (&#91;&#91;The God of Creation&#93;&#93;) (talk) 16:43, January 17, 2018 (UTC)

With Castiel admitting that Jack resurrected him that is canon. --Spnfan079 (talk) 19:41, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

That was probably just a simplification.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 19:58, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

Agree he simplified it and worded it for the purpose of irritating Lucifer. It is all about context. --ThomasNealy (talk) 20:02, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

Ok. --Spnfan079 (talk) 20:04, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

Saying that Castiel was oversimplifying is pure speculation. I thought this Wikia didn't do speculation? And the "oversimplifyers" are assuming that the show has made a distinction between reawakening a dead soul and and resurrecting it, when in fact this has never happened. You're treating your headcanon as canon. There was never any basis for denying that Jack resurrected Castiel. All that the Entity did was teleport him back to Earth - it was clearly Jack, however, who re-animated him, which is what resurrection is truly about: bring back to life a body and/or a soul. People who deny Jack resurrected Castiel are hanging on too tight to the words of an angel, Miriam, who never had met Jack and clearly didn't know the extent of his powers - she even thought she could kill him with an Angel blade. Why are her words taken literally while those of Castiel, the recipient of Jack's power, are not?SonOfEve (talk) 22:10, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

Also, against the argument that Castiel was "oversimplifying" Jack's action, is the fact that everything he told Lucifer about Jack was true, without any exaggeration whatsoever. So why wouldn't the resurrection be true as well? It is right that he was trying to piss Lucifer off, but you don't need to lie to him about Jack to accomplish that, since it was true that his character was the opposite of Lucifer's in every way. SonOfEve (talk) 22:13, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

So by the same token then if a soul managed to get out of Heaven or Hell then they would be alive again right? People seem to be forgetting that the Empty is an after life. Just because he was walking around in it does not equal him being alive any more then dead humans, or monsters, are in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. When Dean needed to get a soul out of purgatory it did not come back to corporeal form with a living body until after he did the ritual. There is a difference between having a recognizable form and being alive again. The Entity is the one that brought him back to life after Cass was awakened in the empty. I see no difference between that and when they talked to Bobby after he was dead using that radio. Did Dean and Sam resurrect Bobby then?

As for simplifying it, yes he did. he never said anything about the entity or walking around the empty did he?--ThomasNealy (talk) 22:50, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

If a being is made of flesh and soul, as is the case with humans and monsters, then merely having a soul walk around doesn't mean that he's alive. However, angels are not made of flesh - they are pure souls. If their souls are active, that means they're alive, even if they're somehow trapped in some sort of limbo. What is death for an angel? It's when their soul sleeps in the Empty. And what is resurrection in their case? Logically, it's when their soul reawakens from that slumber. And this is exactly what Jack did. It is undeniable that he reverted Castiel's slumber, which is what resurrection means for angels. SonOfEve (talk) 23:16, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

And that is speculation. We only know that angels go to the empty and they sleep. that is all. To say other wise is speculation. we don't know what sleep has to do with or how it relates to them being dead. for all we know they are dreaming of better times and instead of a individual heaven they sleep and dream. we need to wait for more information before we can decide, and hope that the question is not left hanging like so many others that the writers do not follow up on. --ThomasNealy (talk) 23:29, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

We do know that sleeping in the Empty is considered a kind of death -- the one irreversible kind of death, in Billie's words. If sleeping in the Empty is death, then reawakening is resurrection, since resurrection, both in the show and in real life, simply means this: reverting an individual's death. Whether or not a soul is dreaming in the Empty is not only speculatory but also wholly unimportant for this argument, which is merely that Jack is capable of undoing the slumber of Empty-trapped souls, which, again, is what death for angels consists of. As for the argument that Castiel must have oversimplified his story to Lucifer because he did not tell him about the Entity: oversimplifying a story is not the same thing as embellishing it or lying, which is what those of you who argue Castiel was "oversimplifying" mean to say. Yes, it is clear that Castiel was oversimplifying his journey by giving Lucifer just a summary of what happened to him -- after all, he had no reason to tell Lucifer about the Entity and every little thing that happened to him there. It is NOT clear, however, that Castiel was "oversimplifying" his story in the sense of being inaccurate. The precise opposite seems to be true, as everything he told Lucifer about Jack's character and beliefs is true without any exaggeration. Again, it is cannon that Castiel called what Jack did resurrection. It is NOT cannon that Castiel was being inaccurate. This is just some people's speculation, based on an idiosyncratic, non-cannon definition of what resurrection means.SonOfEve (talk) 23:55, February 2, 2018 (UTC)

It seems that four people agree that Cass was not resurrected by Jack, but merely awoken with the Cosmic Entity doing the actual resurrection. As such, the consensus is that Jack merely woke up Castiel and that the Cosmic Entity resurrected him. Zane T 69 (talk) 17:56, February 8, 2018 (UTC)

Yes not to start trouble or anything but can I get a consensus on whether or not jack resurrected Castiel. with new information into light Dean and Castiel confirmed that Jack resurrected Castiel. And would like to see if the community’s opinion changed or not. Spnfan079 (talk) 04:32, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Problem is we clearly saw Castiel force the Cosmic Entity to bring him back and at one point after his return he mentioned coming back because he annoyed that damn thing. He could be considering Jack waking him up as Jack bringing him back since it was directly responsible for that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:34, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Jack didn't resurrect Castiel. He just woke him up from his eternal slumber. The Entity banished and resurrected him thanks to Jack's efforts.

Jack’s Weakness
Since an archangel Blade can kill archangels and jack being the son of an archangel (Lucifer) can it be put as a weakness. Or is it speculation until it’s confirmed. Spnfan079 (talk) 06:00, February 4, 2018 (UTC)

Only shown/proven weaknesses are listed. It's the reason why the Colt, First Blade and Primordial Entities aren't added to most pages' weakness sections. Dtol (talk) 11:14, February 4, 2018 (UTC)

Speculation at the moment.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 17:17, February 4, 2018 (UTC)

Alias
On the page it says he's the antichrist but a few seasons ago they already met the antichrist who is the son of a demon and human. Lucifer is an angel meaning his son could not be the antichrist. Yes I know that Dean called him that, but he was a bit flustered and didn't know how to handle the son of satan and he wasn't thinking about it and he doesnt actually think he is the antichrist. RiotRider (talk) 21:04, February 10, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but he still called him that, so it goes on the page. It's for any name that he was given. Dtol (talk) 21:07, February 10, 2018 (UTC)

That is under titles and aliases. those are for things that people have called them. It is not saying he is the antichrist. --ThomasNealy (talk) 21:09, February 10, 2018 (UTC)

Unifying certain weaknesses as one basic thing
I think Electrocution by a taser and blunt force trauma that I added to the weaknesses in the first place should be combined into a more general one since we have seen him shrug off bullets for crying out loud but wince at pain or get knocked out when it is something unexpected. The new Weakness will be Unexpected Mechanical Trauma since all incidents of physical forces having an effect on him are when he is met with the forces of trauma unexpectedly. he was even stunned and pained when hit by Kaia Neeves once too. Lygarx (talk) 09:29, February 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Need a better name if you wanna do something like that.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 00:18, February 14, 2018 (UTC)

Grace extraction
I support the removal of Grace extraction from the page.

1. Grace extraction was never brought up in show for him only an angelic exorcism was to banish his angel half and they were not even sure it would work.

2. If grace extraction would work then why did they need to come up with all those other ideas that they knew had only a chance of working. Grace extrantion makes angels human. the Winchesters know how to do it. Everyone knows how to do it. So why all the elaborate plans if a simple nick to the neck would solve the problem.

3. He is a nephilim we do not even know if his grace is separate from the rest of him like it is for angels or not. and to say it is or is not is speculation and should be left off the page.

I would be willing to compromise on it and have it changed to Angelic Exorcism ( possible). Since that was what was mentioned in show.

--ThomasNealy (talk) 19:34, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Angelic exorcism was not mentioned, to the best of my knowledge. Castiel simply explained that grace extraction had nearly killed Sam when it was performed on him. Furthermore, this is in-universe speculation, which is perfectly fine (see Soul Bomb, The Natural Order). I say keep it as is, because this is the way the characters thought they could deal with the situation, and not something a random fan came up with.

Orion ( T - B -C) 20:34, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

It was what they were talking about. They wanted to try the same thing Dean tried to get Sam free. That was an angelic exorcism. --ThomasNealy (talk) 20:41, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Dean: You needed Gadreel's grace, and he couldn't yank enough out of you.

Sam: (Chuckles) Of course.

Dean: Of course what?

Sam: Of course I am an idiot.

Dean: Well, there's no argument there.

Sam: No, stop. Dean – the grace extraction. The tracking spell was a bust, right?

Sam: But, but the extraction ritual worked.

Dean: So?

Sam: So what if Cass used it on Kelly's kid? I mean, a-a Nephilim's just a human soul with angelic grace, right? So you remove the grace –

Dean: Kid's just a kid.

Sam: Kid's just a kid. That way, Kelly wouldn't have to die, and – and neither would her baby.

'''They were talking about grace extraction on Jack. '''

Castiel: I am. I've been so lost. I'm not lost anymore. And I know now that this child must be born with all of his power.

The reason why they didn't take Jack's grace.

Kelly: Sam and Dean, they want to take away his powers because they're scared.

Source: 12x19, The Future. Dtol (talk) 21:20, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

You have to take in consideration that this is a human archangel hybrid. That extraction turns angels to humans. Archangels are very different. Spnfan079 (talk) 21:45, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

We saw Luci getting his grace extracted this season. And that's why possibly is there. In any case, I'm just going to wait for the other two to respond to get their opinions. Dtol (talk) 21:48, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

That was more of a removal. Spnfan079 (talk) 21:51, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

I don't quite follow, sorry. What do you mean? Dtol (talk) 21:53, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

When Michael (Apocalypse World) took Lucifer’s Grace it was a grace removal It’s under weakness on Lucifer’s Page. Spnfan079 (talk) 21:59, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Then I would change it to removal for consistancy. But my point is, is that taking Jack's grace may be a weakness, considering the extent to which it was discussed. What do you think? Dtol (talk) 22:11, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

How about this then.

Grace Extraction Ritual - It is theorized by the Winchesters that using a ritual they could extract Jack's grace, removing his powers and leaving him a regular human. It is not known if this would work with other forms of extraction like cutting the neck.

My main issue was that it left it to open. Specifying the ritual would remove my objection to it being on the page. I don't think his grace can be removed liked other angels can. His grace is not just possessing a body it is part of his soul. And maybe a page for the ritual should be made as well to explain what it is to differentiate it from other forms of removal. --ThomasNealy (talk) 22:23, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Sure. That sounds great - it's a fair compromise for both. The possibly normally isn't small on other pages though. So:

Grace Extraction Ritual (possibly) Dtol (talk) 22:28, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Changed on the page. Unless there are any more objections to it this issue can be closed. --ThomasNealy (talk) 22:34, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

It wasn't a ritual nor was it an angelic exorcism. How does that even make sense??? He meant doing what Cas and Sam had done with the grace left behind in Sam by Gadreel. Also similar to what Metatron did to Cas and vice versa and what Michael did to Luci.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 23:43, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

In what Dtol posted Sam called it a ritual. --ThomasNealy (talk) 23:48, March 1, 2018 (UTC)

Jack able to recognize Michael
Yes can I get a consensus on whether or not to add Supernatural Perception to Jack’s powers and Abilities sec. the reason why I asked this is because jack was able to tell who Michael is a person he never met. Spnfan079 (talk) 04:27, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Mary and Zachariah both called him by name.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:32, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

No I’m talking about as soon as jack regained his control Michael stepped in front of him and Jack new his name before jack sat down with Mary. Spnfan079 (talk) 06:03, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Lucky guess maybe? Michael has a strong presence. Even Lucifer was not able to recognize him instantly? SeraphLucifer (talk) 14:24, March 2, 2018 (UTC)SeraphLucifer

I would agree we should add it. JS0662 (talk) 22:41, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

So do I but I’ll wait for 2 or 3 more users. Spnfan079 (talk) 23:43, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

First, this Michael is different the our Michael which is why Lucifer didn't recognize him. He commented on their differences before Michael kicked his ass. As for Jack, we didn't see what happened between his arrival and this point so maybe Michael introduced himself??? He may have also heard another angel call him that. Problem is, when angels recognize other angels, it appears to rely on them actually knowing each other to recognize each other. Neither the Rogue Angel or Cas recognized Gadreel who had been locked away for so long that they'd never met him.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 04:52, March 3, 2018 (UTC)

Resurrection Part Two
Even though I think it would make more sense for Jack to have merely awoken Castiel, we have heard it stated numerous times that he actually brought him back. Can I get a consensus on whether we should add it? JS0662 (talk) 22:45, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

He both resurrected and brought back Castiel. There's no difference between "bringing back" a dead person and resurrecting him in this show. Amara brought Mary back. Jack brought Castiel back. Both performed resurrections. The difference some are insisting on is their personal speculation, which has no basis on canon - on what is actually stated on the show, which is merely that Jack resurrected/brought back Castiel. SonOfEve (talk) 23:24, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Yes I also agree on this. Spnfan079 (talk) 23:46, March 2, 2018 (UTC)

Who do you agree with??? Because the problem is they state that Jack brought him back now, but they also dedicated an entire episode (or Cas' part of it) showing Cas forcing the Cosmic Entity to bring him back. Before he met Jack, Cas himself stated that he came back because he annoyed that damn thing. He seems to take Jack awakening him in The Empty as a resurrection by him as far as I can tell.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 04:49, March 3, 2018 (UTC)

What about partial Resurrection since Jack and the Cosmic Entity are responsible for bringing Castiel back. Spnfan079 (talk) 04:54, March 3, 2018 (UTC)

Jack resurrected/woke Cas up in The Empty then he forced the Cosmic Entity to throw him back to Earth. So basically I think this is all Jack's doing? Cas just made his way back home. Touchinos (talk) 05:36, March 3, 2018 (UTC)

Maybe??? I suppose that being woken up like that could be considered his resurrection and is probably what he considers it to be anyway.--WarGrowlmon18 (talk) 05:42, March 3, 2018 (UTC) Has anyone considered that the Empty (place) is still a place inside our universe? Like Heaven and Hell. The only difference is that angels and demons sleep for eternity in the Empty, and that is their dead state. So when Jack woke Cas up he did bring him back. And the Empty sent him back to Earth. Notice in 13x04, Cas specifically asks the entity to send him back, not resurrect him. JS0662 (talk) 14:48, March 3, 2018 (UTC) We can't make up theories. As far as we know, the Empty is a place of nothingness predating Universe and God. Jack awakening Castiel is not resurrection. God describes resurrecting angels as "rebuilding" and Jack only reach out to him telepathically. It doesn't matter if you count Castiel's return as resurrection or not. He was banished from The Empty and returned to Earth with a new vessel and a coat. And it was made by the Cosmic Entity. SeraphLucifer (talk) 15:31, March 3, 2018 (UTC)SeraphLucifer